Pit vs Ike writeup (input wanted)

Doctor X · Jul 19, 2009

We of the Pit boards are trying to restart our matchup discussions since the ones we already have are mostly poo and the ones we don't have are several. We're working on a number of ways to go about it, and this is one of our ideas...

We're preparing writeups on the matchups as we view them, taking care to remain unbiased and limit ourselves solely to information we've personally tested. We'll then run these by their respective boards and see how the other side feels about it. We're holding off on matchup percentages for now... I think we'll resolve that with votes after we have a definitive writeup.

Anyway... I'm not sure why we're starting with Ike, but we are, so congrats.

The following is a sort of draft I wrote up that I feel is mostly correct. Let me know how you guys feel about it and feel free to suggest anything that I may have overlooked.

-

The main thing you really have to worry about is Ike's jab/grab mixups. The basic idea is that, when he lands the first jab on your shield you're compelled to keep your shield up to avoid getting hit by the second jab. He then cancels out of the jab chain and grabs you. If, however, you're expecting the jab-cancel and attempt to drop your shield, you very well might eat the second jab which inevitably leads to the third. Pit has a number of ways to deal with this. You can, like all characters, rolldodge away between the first and second jabs to ensure he doesn't grab you. However, If you have quick enough reaction time you can punish him. Just keep your shield up, but as soon as you see him cancel, drop your shield and utilt him. This will beat either a grab or a follow-up jab. Of course if he continues through the jab chain until the third hit, you can drop your shield and punish the lag however you choose.

Ike hates arrows a lot. They’re capable of shutting down his forward-B approach game and can interrupt almost all of his moves. On top of all this they’re a decent way to gimp him. Just shoot him over and over again while he’s trying to recover. If he’s low and far enough away from the edge it’s a guaranteed kill.

On the subject of gimping, note that, as with any character, if you see Ike charging his forward-B to recover, you can jump in the way of it and he will die. Pit is particularly good at doing this because of his multiple jumps. Most of the time this is worth the sacrifice of getting hit. Sometimes-- when you're at high percent, mostly-- it's not such a good idea. Mirror gimps are not very viable at a high level, even though they may seem deadly. There are plenty of ways Ike can get around them-- recovering close enough to the edge so getting turned around doesn't matter, for example. Not that you shouldn't seize the opportunity if there is one, but most good Ikes won't give you such opportunities.

Other things you need to watch out for include Ike's offstage aerials and wall infinites. These can very quickly cost you the game if you're not weary of them. His aerials are most dangerous when you're gliding and thus incapable of airdodging. His fthrow wall infinite can be initiated with a back throw, so if you see an Ike standing with his back to a wall, do not engage him. Shoot him with arrows until the wall disappears (as they do on most tournament stages) or he gets bored and moves away from it.

Counterpick-wise… If it isn’t banned by the TO, always, always, always ban Pirate Ship. Ike simply dominates that stage.

Kimchi · Jul 19, 2009

This is a write-up I contributed a while back for the Pit matchup. Feel free to point out anything wrong with the write-up.

This is a matchup in which Pit’s going to have to play very carefully. Any wrong move by Pit and Ike can easily rack up an easy 20-30% and that’s only with Jab cancels. Contrary to public belief, Ike’s Fair is not exactly the best move against a moderately quick character like Pit even with its fantastic range. Ike’s easily punished if he doesn’t space his Fairs/Nairs well because Pit has his arrows and his Dash attack is fast enough. What Pit has to watch out for is Ike getting close and personal. If Ike is inside Pit, what Pit should do is use his Utilt to get Ike out and up into the air where Pit can juggle him. OOS Dair works great against Ike as well. Make sure if Ike is jab cancelling your shield, do NOT side step but shield every hit and dodge appropriately when the Ike tries to follow up with a grab.
The key to this matchup is racking up damage at a considerable distance then moving in for the kill at high percentages. Pit does NOT want to fight Ike at close range. Otherwise, you’ll be eating plenty of smashes and Jabs and grabs and etc. and Pit will be dying very fast. Gimping’s another method to kill Ike relatively easily. The better Ikes will know not to Aether directly onto the stage because of Pit’s Mirror Shield so they’ll Aether the opposite direction or wait until they’re low enough to Aether only up to the ledge. If Ike Aethers the opposite direction, simply Dtilt him or Fsmash him. Keeping Ike at bay with your arrows is crucial but knowing when Ike can get inside you is also important as well. Use Fsmash where appropriate since it’s great for knocking back Ike and since it’s one of Pit’s fastest and strongest killing moves along with Bair and Fair.

Ussi · Jul 19, 2009

IMO this is 43-57 but that's just my numbers from brawling Rouge Pit. Idk if he takes me seriously lol. We haven't brawled in a LONG time so he definally is better now but so am I

(hopefully) Pit is in that zone that Ike is at some disadvantage but it's not bad.. But still worse than his 45-55 MU.

Ike can space Pit, but has to space better since Pit has a sword-bow thing for some range. Ike can hit thru Pit's side B.. And out space it if he tries to use it. Ike can jab cancel to shield to counter a utilt and punish with a grab for another mix up. Ike has to be weary of Pit's quick aerials and mantain a good zone.IMO Ike can use side B to get closer if he reads Pit's arrow right but Pit's arrow are really good at stopping Side B.

Ike has to be very careful when recovering and DI arrows UP or avoid them. Ike can be smart and side b into an arrow but that's really stupid.. After avoiding arrows, he has to position aether correctly , which can be edgehogged properly.

On a side note, Ike's fsmash has a 40% increased chance of hitting Rouge Pit :laugh:

so maybe that messed up my numbers XD

Nidtendofreak · Jul 19, 2009

Lets see...

The main thing you really have to worry about is Ike's jab/grab mixups. The basic idea is that, when he lands the first jab on your shield you're compelled to keep your shield up to avoid getting hit by the second jab. He then cancels out of the jab chain and grabs you. If, however, you're expecting the jab-cancel and attempt to drop your shield, you very well might eat the second jab which inevitably leads to the third. Pit has a number of ways to deal with this. You can, like all characters, rolldodge away between the first and second jabs to ensure he doesn't grab you. However, If you have quick enough reaction time you can punish him. Just keep your shield up, but as soon as you see him cancel, drop your shield and utilt him. This will beat either a grab or a follow-up jab. Of course if he continues through the jab chain until the third hit, you can drop your shield and punish the lag however you choose.

1) I don't believe you can roll away between the first and second jab, even if you managed to shield the first one. I haven't seen that happen before. I could be wrong though.

2) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 is a true combo, so if you keep dropping the shield after the first jab, you will end up eating a jab anyways. It's the first jab that has the most hitstun (+11 if you don't jump away after being hit, +6/7 if you do jump away), so we cancel after that one most of the time, not the second one. Jab1->Grab I might add leaves you with ONE frame to jump and AD in to avoid the grab. I've yet to have seen this happen. Jab1 -> Utilt is another thing I've yet to have seen avoided, though you do have a larger window to dodge it. If you managed to shield the first jab, you basically have to gamble on what your action is going to be: keep shielding to avoid the rest of the combo, or jump + AD away and hope you manage to avoid a grab or Utilt attempt.

3) You seem focused a lot on the assumption you have shielded the jab. You might want to mention our follows up a bit when you do get hit and work on what to do out of them to try and get momentum back. (For example, Jab 1 -> Jab1 -> Grab -> (pummels) -> Bthrow -> Dash Attack is a true combo at the right % range, except for the 1 frame to dodge the grab. However, the Dash Attack would send Pit a good ways away, so he could turn around a plug an arrow or two into Ike to slow down Ike's momentum)

Ike hates arrows a lot. They’re capable of shutting down his forward-B approach game and can interrupt almost all of his moves. On top of all this they’re a decent way to gimp him. Just shoot him over and over again while he’s trying to recover. If he’s low and far enough away from the edge it’s a guaranteed kill.

If Ike is using Quick Draw to approach: he's a complete noob and if you lose you should quit Brawl. >_> I can see using it between arrows, but actually trying to approach with it? Yuck. You may want to add that Ike's jab can cancel out Pit's arrows though I believe it depends on where the arrow is hitting. Try to aim the arrows not in Ike's jab range (aim for the feet/head)

On the subject of gimping, note that, as with any character, if you see Ike charging his forward-B to recover, you can jump in the way of it and he will die. Pit is particularly good at doing this because of his multiple jumps. Most of the time this is worth the sacrifice of getting hit. Sometimes-- when you're at high percent, mostly-- it's not such a good idea.

We should be rarely, if ever, using Quick Draw to recover. If we're using it, it's because you can't get to us in time to gimp us like that.

Mirror gimps are not very viable at a high level, even though they may seem deadly. There are plenty of ways Ike can get around them-- recovering close enough to the edge so getting turned around doesn't matter, for example. Not that you shouldn't seize the opportunity if there is one, but most good Ikes won't give you such opportunities.

True. Nothing to really note here.

Other things you need to watch out for include Ike's offstage aerials and wall infinites. These can very quickly cost you the game if you're not weary of them. His aerials are most dangerous when you're gliding and thus incapable of airdodging. His fthrow wall infinite can be initiated with a back throw, so if you see an Ike standing with his back to a wall, do not engage him. Shoot him with arrows until the wall disappears (as they do on most tournament stages) or he gets bored and moves away from it.

Nothing to really say here.

Counterpick-wise… If it isn’t banned by the TO, always, always, always ban Pirate Ship. Ike simply dominates that stage.

Lol, too true. It's fun to see the horror on people's faces when they realized they forgot to ban Pirate Ship as I pick it. Neutral wise, Pit should go for FD, and Ike will be probably trying for Battlefield. I don't know how good Pit's platform game is, but if you are on top of a low platform, and Ike is underneath, you are in for a world of hurt.

Ike will most likely ban Jungle Japes, the water screws us over too much. Frigate Orphean would be a good CP for Pit to choose, as the grabless ledge doesn't really bother his recovery

@kimchi: I'm fairly sure that write up is ancient and out of date. >_>

metroid1117 · Jul 19, 2009

Doctor X said:
The main thing you really have to worry about is Ike's jab/grab mixups. The basic idea is that, when he lands the first jab on your shield you're compelled to keep your shield up to avoid getting hit by the second jab. He then cancels out of the jab chain and grabs you. If, however, you're expecting the jab-cancel and attempt to drop your shield, you very well might eat the second jab which inevitably leads to the third. Pit has a number of ways to deal with this. You can, like all characters, rolldodge away between the first and second jabs to ensure he doesn't grab you. However, If you have quick enough reaction time you can punish him. Just keep your shield up, but as soon as you see him cancel, drop your shield and utilt him. This will beat either a grab or a follow-up jab. Of course if he continues through the jab chain until the third hit, you can drop your shield and punish the lag however you choose.

I was shocked to discover that Pit's UTilt hits on frame 2, I never knew it was fast enough to beat out our jab cancels.

The write-up sounds pretty accurate; just note, however, that most Ike's won't use QD as an actual approach and we prefer to run in with side-steps and shields. I would also just mention that most Ikes, when they get off a grab, like to use BThrow and combo into dash attack; it can really screw over some people's DI because they don't expect Ike to have a throw combo :laugh:

.

Coffee™ · Jul 19, 2009

Ussi said:
Ike can be smart and side b into an arrow but that's really stupid..

I find this pretty funny :laugh:

Nidtendofreak · Jul 19, 2009

I was shocked to discover that Pit's UTilt hits on frame 2, I never knew it was fast enough to beat out our jab cancels.

O_o

Who the heck gets a frame 2 tilt? Not even MK can brag about that. Sheesh.

However, it still doesn't beat out Jab -> Jab or Jab -> Grab thankfully.

Ussi · Jul 19, 2009

I just realize I said a paradox it's both smart for reading the arrow but stupid when you miss :laugh:

shield drop > utilt is 9 frames total. Jab isn't safe on block but don't know how much unsafe.

Doctor X · Jul 19, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
1) I don't believe you can roll away between the first and second jab, even if you managed to shield the first one. I haven't seen that happen before. I could be wrong though.

I'll test it out the next time I get the chance. I was kind of iffy on that.

2) Jab 1 -> Jab 1 is a true combo, so if you keep dropping the shield after the first jab, you will end up eating a jab anyways. It's the first jab that has the most hitstun (+11 if you don't jump away after being hit, +6/7 if you do jump away), so we cancel after that one most of the time, not the second one. Jab1->Grab I might add leaves you with ONE frame to jump and AD in to avoid the grab. I've yet to have seen this happen. Jab1 -> Utilt is another thing I've yet to have seen avoided, though you do have a larger window to dodge it. If you managed to shield the first jab, you basically have to gamble on what your action is going to be: keep shielding to avoid the rest of the combo, or jump + AD away and hope you manage to avoid a grab or Utilt attempt.

Does Jab 1 really lock you in your shield that badly? The first hit of Pit's utilt comes out on frame 2. That's 6 frames with a shield drop. There'd have to be quite a lot of shield stun for the second Jab 1 to connect, I think. Other people in the Pit boards were pretty certain about utilt out of shield breaking this. We'll have to do some testing, I think. :dizzy:

3) You seem focused a lot on the assumption you have shielded the jab. You might want to mention our follows up a bit when you do get hit and work on what to do out of them to try and get momentum back. (For example, Jab 1 -> Jab1 -> Grab -> (pummels) -> Bthrow -> Dash Attack is a true combo at the right % range, except for the 1 frame to dodge the grab. However, the Dash Attack would send Pit a good ways away, so he could turn around a plug an arrow or two into Ike to slow down Ike's momentum)

Good idea. I think we'll make sure to include some of this in the second draft.

If Ike is using Quick Draw to approach: he's a complete noob and if you lose you should quit Brawl. >_> I can see using it between arrows, but actually trying to approach with it? Yuck. You may want to add that Ike's jab can cancel out Pit's arrows though I believe it depends on where the arrow is hitting. Try to aim the arrows not in Ike's jab range (aim for the feet/head)

The bit about Quick Draw approaches will be removed.

We should be rarely, if ever, using Quick Draw to recover. If we're using it, it's because you can't get to us in time to gimp us like that.

Also will be removed.

Ussi · Jul 19, 2009

Rolls from first jab can be pivot jabbed, (though reaction lag is different for everyone)

I thought shield drop was 7 frames ;O?? Is it different for some character maybe?

Coffee™ · Jul 19, 2009

Doctor X said:
Does Jab 1 really lock you in your shield that badly? The first hit of Pit's utilt comes out on frame 2. That's 6 frames with a shield drop. There'd have to be quite a lot of shield stun for the second Jab 1 to connect, I think. Other people in the Pit boards were pretty certain about utilt out of shield breaking this. We'll have to do some testing, I think. :dizzy

I dunno about Utilt OoS but I know it can stop it in between cancels. Nair OoS is faster than Utilt OoS due to not having to worry about shield dropping, so that might work.

Doctor X · Jul 19, 2009

Ussi said:
Rolls from first jab can be pivot jabbed, (though reaction lag is different for everyone)

I thought shield drop was 7 frames ;O?? Is it different for some character maybe?

I'm going by frame data from a pit guide in progress. It may be mistaken, I dunno. :laugh:

Again, we're open to corrections.

Nidtendofreak · Jul 19, 2009

Ah, I wasn't talking about Jab VS Shield. I was talking just about jab hitting flesh.....er....pixals........character......non-shielded hits. I would think though Ike should be able to win it....but I don't know, and I don't have a way to test it. I'm busy visiting relatives, I just post between visits and stuff.

Doctor X · Jul 19, 2009

^No prob. Unfortunately some jerk has my brawl disc right now so I can't test it either. >.<

Ussi · Jul 19, 2009

'm trying this at 1/4 speed. IDK if i'm doing it as fast as i can but I'm just doing the normal jab 1 > jab 2 and Pit is 1 frame too slow o.o;; (because i see Pit do the first part of his utilt) prehaps i'm doing it too slow.

EDIT: I see what happened. The first of Pit is SOOO small that it never hit. Ike's jab greatly outranges it XD, Pit CAN utilt OoS jab, but it just is outranged XD

Nidtendofreak · Jul 19, 2009

1/4 speed adds frames to attacks Ussi in order to keep things running smooth. It has to be regular speed.

Guilhe · Jul 19, 2009

Oh, the Pit boards came here and cared to create the matchup discussion thread all by themselves. How practical! Since the Diddy Kong matchup discussion has ceased (momentarily, I hope) I hereby declare this thread shall be official before the War Room, all its ratios and write-ups posted here will be considered valid. I hope you could share the write-up you’re working on with us Doctor X when its ready.

Ussi · Jul 19, 2009

Ah then i can't help there, i am alone here

BUT Ike's jab greatly ourtanges Pit's first hitbox of utilt. so 2 frames is NO GO.

Doctor X · Jul 20, 2009

I will play against Infern Angelis and test some of this stuff soon, I hope. After which I will update.

smash64 · Jul 20, 2009

then again infern angelis's ike is kinda rusty -.-

Doctor X · Jul 20, 2009

^No juans

Seriously, though, it's good enough to test utilt.

Doctor X · Jul 26, 2009

Ok, I did some testing this weekend. I found a couple really important things...

1. When the first jab hits Pit, it picks him up off the ground slightly. Because you are in the air, you cannot utilt.
2. When you shield the first jab, dropping into utilt takes too long to beat a second jab1 or a grab. Either that or I'm just not timing it right. After about 20-30 tries with a 0% success rate, though, I feel it's a lost cause.

So either way you can't punish jab 1 unless you space it. Or if you powershield, maybe... I didn't try that now that I think about it.

In other words, most of what I've written here about Ike's jab game is completely wrong. Unless someone else has had different results somehow...

Guilhe · Aug 4, 2009

Okay, so now we need a write-up from Ike’s perspective. Let’s start with Pit's approaches.

Coffee™ · Aug 4, 2009

Guilhe said:
Okay, so now we need a write-up from Ike’s perspective. Let’s start with Pit's approaches.

Pit approaches Ike

Guilhe · Aug 4, 2009

It's an option right? How would you approach to get the kill or to disrupt Ike's zooning, for example?

metroid1117 · Aug 4, 2009

Guilhe said:
It's an option right? How would you approach to get the kill or to disrupt Ike's zooning, for example?

I haven't played a good Pit main before, but from what I understand Pit will usually try to create openings with arrows and get kills from baiting mistakes rather than punishing. I don't know if Pit needs to "approach" per se.

Coffee™ · Aug 5, 2009

Guilhe said:
It's an option right? How would you approach to get the kill or to disrupt Ike's zooning, for example?

Why bother trying to zone when you just run away and camp with arrows

Ike doesn't really have the tools for dealing with them since they interrupt his normal approaches and rack up damage pretty fast against him.

If Pit had to approach for whatever reason then SH retreating Fair or FH Dair are probably his best options vs Ike as the former can zone him pretty well provided he avoids Ike's Fair and the latter can set up Bair or Fsmash kills.

Guilhe · Aug 5, 2009

He does have a chaingrab on Ike right? You know the percentages it works?

Coffee™ · Aug 5, 2009

Guilhe said:
He does have a chaingrab on Ike right? You know the percentages it works?

0-30 with just Fthrow, anything further and Ike can Jab before you can regrab him.

He has a 0-40 with Fthrow x2 -> Fsmash. Not sure if he can do Fthrow x3 to Fsmash but it might be possible.

Guilhe · Aug 5, 2009

Pit write-up

Pit is quite a versatile character, most notably though, he abuses a manipulable projectile that combined with superior mobility guarantees him a solid camping advantage over Ike. Not surprisingly then, angel boy should assume a defensive posture and control the stage for the majority of the match. From 0% to 50% though, he could go aggressive in order to land a grab or Dtilt. These are, respectively, setups to an Fthrow chainthrow ending with a Fsmash or Dthrow, which similarly to Dtilt setups for different aerials depending on the direction of the DI of the victim. These early combos and juggle can build percentage very quicky, always jump away when caught in one of these. Fortunately for Ike though, his approaches and spacing remains unaltered.

While approaching Pit, the Ike should be wary of his opponent options. His ground attacks, his jab, tilts and even smashes takes mere single digits frames to connect. Still, Ike holds the advantage in ground combat, mostly, thanks to his Jab. Not only it out speeds any move Pit can perform but it also clanks them. Furthermore, it is more often unpunishable to shieldgrabs, since Pit’s grab range is rather short in comparison to most characters. Before such unfavorable odds, Pit would rather choose to take wing and strike with one of his aerials. These, when spaced correctly, are unpunishable and allows him to retreat safely.

When it comes to finishing, Pit is subject to serious difficulties. His Fsmash and Dsmash are both fast but quite weak as well. Bair is powerful when sweetspoted, but its reach is rather limited. His arrow and mirror shield gimp are both avoidable if the Ike players patiently AD’s the shots and reverses its Aether. The reciprocal is not true, even though Pit’s recovery is nearly ungimpable. Although, Pit can win through running out the timer as well, thanks to his prowess in ledge plaking. When using Wing of Icarus, Pit gains the fastest aerial movement in the game, allowing him to move from underneath the stage and grab the opposite ledge without any objections. Also, he can stall his recovery at the ledge with ledgehopped Uair and arrows. The Ike player should be patient, and actually try to read Pit’s recovery by the ledge instead mindlessly spamming aerials in order to block it.

In conclusion, I believe that when we put Pit ‘s camping, planking, damage racking and spacing against Ike’s spacing, damage racking and KO power (unavoidably taking in consideration each of their own flaws), the matchup evens out (50:50).

Guilhe · Sep 8, 2009

Counterpick

Pirate Ship
Pit has no spikes, so is practically impossible to get gimped or drowned in this stage. Also, the Ike player can cancel the knockback of Pit’s strongest finishers (which all have horizontal knockback) by using Aether.

Corneria
The proximity of the stage limits makes Pit's fantastic recovery negletible.

Pokémon Stadium 1
Pit can't fly underneath in between ledges and a variety of walls are available for Fthrow infinites.

Banning

Jungle Japes
Close horizontal limits, multiple ledges, and a river that gimps only Ike.

Frigate Orpheon
The first form of the stage has no ledge at the right, but a platform that is traversable from underneath instead. This affects Ike’s recovery mostly, as he is forced to land onstage with Aether while Pit can glide or use his multiple jumps or Wing of Icarus to fly through it and land with minimal lag. The stage rotation can kill Ike depending on his positioning, whereas Pit can recover from anyware.

Palpi · Sep 8, 2009

zomg, Sheik!

Nidtendofreak · Sep 8, 2009

Snake? Snake! SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!

Guilhe · Sep 8, 2009

The idea was to bump the Main matchup thread with your requests, not this one.

Nidtendofreak · Sep 8, 2009

>_>

We forgot that existed.

Doctor X · Sep 8, 2009

A few minor issues...

-The chaingrab is likely to end in a fsmash if the pit player does it right.

-Pit's bair has no true sweetspot. The entire hitbox is powerful for the first few frames, then it becomes weak. It's a matter of timing, not spacing.

-As a pit main I would never choose frigate. Pit needs ledges, arguably more than any character in the game.

- As for japes... I've never tried it really. Personally I'd pick Lylat over it.

Guilhe · Sep 8, 2009

Thank you Doctor X, it shall be fixed. Done, mostly. I'll be keeping those stages as banning suggestions as I've seen Pits in Brazil abuse it quite well. Do you mind explaning the why for Lylat Cruise?

Tikun · Sep 9, 2009

I cannot agree with the Lylat option of coutnerpick. It is no a safe edge for pit to plank.
But as Ike's players might know, those edges are tricky and may be a pain in the *** on recovering.
I'd stay with Frigate and Japes.

Nidtendofreak · Sep 9, 2009

Ike for the most part likes Lylat. The tilting doesn't fully screw him over as he can move left and right a bit during aether to avoid getting trapped under neath it. And the ledges are always good for Uairs. :D

theeboredone · Sep 9, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
Ike for the most part likes Lylat. The tilting doesn't fully screw him over as he can move left and right a bit during aether to avoid getting trapped under neath it. And the ledges are always good for Uairs. :D

No. Lylat is an awful stage to go with Ike. I don't know how many times I've died when I tried to hang on the edge, Up-Air and try to recover with aether only for the ship to tilt up so I can't reach the edge. That stage is way too easy for Ike to get gimped in when you are trying to also dodge opponents from attacking you off stage. You are definitely better off using another stage as your CP.

As far as facing Pit on the stage, if he nails with you those arrows while you are off stage, it becomes even more difficult to time your aether. It's happened a few times where I would be in a position to aether, use aether, I would get hit by the arrow and the hit stun would make me go either away from or underneath the platform and I would be in a tough spot to aether back up.

Platforms are good, but BF is better for that.

Pit vs Ike writeup (input wanted)

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