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Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

Underload

Lazy
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Quoted from the Tier List thread:

"Long story short, if the character is in S or A tier, order matters a lot. If the character is not, then unless it's at the top of the tier and another is at the bottom of the tier, there's not that huge of a difference."

</end>?
 

Sensei Seibrik

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Get name searched



I just wana refer to the argument of PeircD and Crashic earlier


I now feel pika/ddd is even

mk/ddd is even

Ddd/oli is ddd's favor by a lil-still evenish

ddd/IC's is ddd's favor significantly

and ddd/falco is HORRIBLE for ddd.... i've tried so hard vs SMART falco's and its just.... stupid...


i haven't given up, but its ***** gayyyyy
 

Nanaki

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Get name searched



I just wana refer to the argument of PeircD and Crashic earlier


I now feel pika/ddd is even

mk/ddd is even

Ddd/oli is ddd's favor by a lil-still evenish

ddd/IC's is ddd's favor significantly

and ddd/falco is HORRIBLE for ddd.... i've tried so hard vs SMART falco's and its just.... stupid...


i haven't given up, but its ***** gayyyyy
If all of that is true, DDD's moving up to 3rd at least on the next list.

Is air camping the biggest factor that's swaying these for you from what they were accepted to be?
 

Vinnie

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My tier list woot.

S tier
:metaknight: Obv
:popo: their only bad matchup IMO is snake.
:snake: Loses like 2-3 matchups iirc, beats mk 55:45 imo
:diddy:
:wario:
:falco:
:marth: Mikehaze's placements made this an easy decision to make Marth S tier.
:dedede: originally going to be put in top of A tier but seibrik's post on his matchups sort of convinced me.

A tier
:olimar: Has really weird matchups, but I still think he's great.
:pikachu2: Also really great
:gw: Bad matchups vs top tiers, ***** everybody b tier & lower.
:toonlink: Has a hard but managable matchup vs MK.
:dk2: Always thought he was underrated. He's really good.


B tier
:rob: A pretty good character, but poor tourney representation, and a very hard matchup against MK & gnw.
:kirby2: Kind of obvious on his kill moves
:peach: Has a bad matchup against mk and snake, something you don't really want.
:lucario: Poor tourney representation, but noticeable tourney representation = really good people, like Azen, Zucco, JuneBug, etc.
:shiek: Good char, ftilt is sort of expected most of the time, but I believe she was just recently THAT LOW on the list because of people comparing her to Melee sheik.
:zerosuitsamus: Very versatile character, with pretty consistent matchups for the most part.
:pit: Good camping game, but gets gimped and is hard to kill with.
:fox: He is actually good but he has death matchups...
:pt: Underrated.


C tier
:sonic:
:wolf: Good char, not much tourney represnetation
:luigi2:
:bowser2: great side B and grab release game.
:mario2:

bottom tier, in no specific order - :lucas:, :ness2:, :yoshi2:, :samus2:, :jigglypuff:, :falcon:, :link2:, :ganondorf:, :ike:, :zelda:
 

Demp

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Ddd/oli is ddd's favor by a lil-still evenish
I am interested to know why. I was talking to arguably the best Oli in the Midwest and he made it seem it is Oli's advantage by a good amount. Is DDD vs Oli even-ish something new?
 

Vinnie

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I got mixed up with b tier and c tier, I put her where she belongs.

Also the list isn't really meant to be taken seriously, it's just my quick opinion. For the most part, I believe that

S tier is where the metagame like revolves around
A tier characters require a certain mindset to use them
B & C tier characters can compete but require a lot of matchup experience and skill.

Anything below that can't really compete.
 

rPSIvysaur

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Lucas should probably be placed in Low tier, he has almost no representation (less than Link) and has very few, if any good MU's that are above the complete bottom... I hate saying this but it's true
 

Ripple

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G&W is not that good anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped even more
 

CRASHiC

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I am interested to know why. I was talking to arguably the best Oli in the Midwest and he made it seem it is Oli's advantage by a good amount. Is DDD vs Oli even-ish something new?
I usually use nair or bair depending where on my body the pickmen are, cuz i like to stay in the air and destroy them as i approach, stnading still with utilt makes urself to stationary, he's just gona side b you again.

so i take the little extra damage i get from the possible two moves i have to do isntead of one, but at least im closing distance and im not in range of his side b again.

getting from 0-69 in 5 seconds isn't a big deal since it USUALLY only happens about once a stock, since once i do get in, i usually stay in, and he can't rack up much damage after that OR kill me until about 130-140 with a fresh move and good DI.

meanwhile olimar runs the risk at dying at 20 just from BEING olimar.



another reason why inhale is so good to edgeguard, is cuz half the time they're waiting for attacks to time their down b for, and since they have super armor, and inhale is a grab, inhale always wins no question.

then when they give up on down b mid match, thats when u throw in the bair.

always edgeguard backwards, and use reverse inhale, that way they always have to guess when ur bairing or inhaling.
how does ddd beat ics lol
down air camp, and other tricks, allegedly. Think about a Metaknight who can seperate them while he camps, has better aerial mobility (not counting tornado) and longer range.
 

Underload

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Here's a list that I just put together.

Notable changes:
Diddy at #3
ICs at #8
Peach at #16
Pokemon Trainer at #21
Ness at #26

S Tier
1. Metaknight
2. Snake
3. Diddy Kong
4. Falco
5. Wario

A Tier
6. King Dedede
7. Marth
8. Ice Climbers
9. Olimar
10. Pikachu
11. Mr. Game & Watch

B Tier
12. R.O.B.
13. Zero Suit Samus
14. Kirby
15. Toon Link
16. Peach
17. Donkey Kong
18. Lucario

C Tier
19. Pit
20. Sonic
21. Pokemon Trainer
22. Sheik
23. Luigi
24. Wolf
25. Fox

D Tier
26. Ness
27. Bowser
28. Mario
29. Ike

E Tier
30. Zelda
31. Lucas
32. Yoshi
33. Samus

F Tier
34. Captain Falcon
35. Link
36. Jigglypuff
37. Ganondorf
 

C.box

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Sensei Seibrik

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I believe i've posted more in-depth explanaitions in the DDD boards repsective matchups threads


but vs

ICS:

Bair approach, once in, dair camp, footstool and dairs, one lands on sheilds insta-pokes (two shields and a strong rapid hit attack greatly deminishes the shields further) IF they somehow didn't poke, u can jump again/footstool away, or dair again, def. poking at least one, seperating them.
Once seperated DDD has some of the best "keep sepereated" game in the game. One being plain grabing each as they try to get near each other, bair spamming, or charging things like dsmash.

Also if u think they continue to hold shield and are afraid of them uaring out of shield between dairs u get free mixup with inhale, if u instantly spit it out it's gona hit the one u didn't inhale.

HOPEFULLY u inhalled popo so at worst the quick punishment is a jab or something.

Bairs=easier gimping capabilities than mk's dair, as it flat out can beat IC's side b, sending them far back off, and lower at low %. also charge sidesmash is nice here, the range and power on that makes it easier to hit, something mk's fsmash lacks (i often take the side b when i try to time mk's fsmash to hit them off)

and if u grab one (right next to the other) i like uthrow instead of foward
its fast enough u can throw one up, it pushes the other back, u grab the other, throw up into the other, air chase original, repeat (also easy seperation, but don't look for grabs its risky as balls)

There's also the factor (don't know if u count in in the meta gameness of the matchup) that ddd is harder to inf. and takes longer to kill=more chances of messing up.


Only "gay" thing about the matchup is the edgeguards to be honest.

No IC's do it vs ddd cuz they're dumb and i may be regreting saying this.
All they gotta do from a grab is take to the edge into a fair spike, and grab ledge, wait for up b as nana still has ledge, get up, grab it, new grab inf. or fair spike again (keep in mind ddd doesn't get any jumps back in this process)


but yea, thats only one real advantage IC's have in the matchup that I see being a problem. And THAT assumes the DDD got grabbed to begin with.

Then if DDD does get a lead I feel he's harder to approach while platform camping than MK, but that's just me and my experiences.








OLI:
One simple thing that throws this matchup into ddd's favor, though slightly, is inhale.
It beats 80% of oli's move set, including run up grab (lol) and sometimes pivot grab depending on ur placement and which pikmen it is. It's also a really good edgeguard solution to Oli's down B, throw off stage, turn and prepare to bair, if the oli jumps at all, than tries to time down b for ur bair, DDD can just reverse inhale instead (land on stage) walk off, (provided oli isn't mashing out fast) and spit semi-low (or higher depending on amount of pikmen) Oli (though ddd landed) does not get his jump back and depending on how low you got, most likely wont reach the edge with up-b even with full pikmen.
anything close range get's beat by grab, d-throw tech chase is easiest in the game, and he dies early.

Nair/utilt do a good job of breaking off multiple pikmen attatched to you in one to two hits, and as for an approach treat it like IC's. Bair approach (if they side b'd u alot nair some on the way or ignore) then once close dair shield/inhale ALOT (beats 80% of the **** oli can do at this point) and his roll is so bad he sometimes can't get away even if he were to predict it.


Pikachu:

this one is best left to vids i'm gonna have up in the next couple weeks. its still in testing process but from a sudden shift in playstyle i went from getting three stocked by esam, to borderline always beating him. and threestocking lesser pikachu's. (esam lives down the street) all it takes is for the DDD to NOT play like DDD, and I suppose more like a MK would vs IC's. Platforms are your friend.



if there's any questions, i'd appreciate them to be directed to my PM box instead of a post here, as I don't like checking up on such reply happy threads. (to time consuming)



hope i've helped, even a little.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I like how G&W mythically "became worse" (even though that's impossible; the game hasn't changed). A bunch of people just stopped playing him so he lost the popularity contest; it doesn't mean a thing. The comment about how Snake can't drop as long as Ally plays is the most misguided of all, and it indicates a lot of the wrongheaded thoughts about G&W. Snake is just as good or bad as he is regardless if Ally or any other players exist, and G&W is the same way. Claims that he's "predictable" are patently absurd; predictability is a function of the player, and even if you do "predict" something, it's not the significant detail. What matters is winning and losing, and what that means is that predicting I'm going to use turtle and then getting hit by it or really doing anything that isn't hitting me or somehow putting me at the disadvantage is fine by me (if no one takes damage, I probably did shield damage, limited their options, and gained space which is winning the exchange).

Just look at G&W, really. He's not slow, he's ridiculously powerful, and he has massive disjointed range. His mobility is well above average, especially when you factor in how amazing Fire and dair are. He is one of the best characters in the game at approaching an opponent in a defensive position. He is poor on Final Destination but really exceptional at exploiting the stage geography on just about literally every other stage (the only other stage that has ever been legal anywhere that I don't think this applies to is Mario Circuit, FYI). G&W is flush with good moves in general even with a plethora of assorted great properties on those moves like fast charge release, lingering hitboxes, windboxes, invincibility, etc.; his only bad move is Judgment Hammer with his only legitimately unuseful move aside from that being utilt (ftilt and Chef, while near the bottom of his moveset, have more use found for them as time goes on and are definitely handy). It is hilarious that people consistently took over 10% damage from the turtle, got hit by dthrow to dsmash, and ran right into usmash when the game was new. Really, that was great. Just because people stopped sucking at fighting G&W doesn't mean they "figured him out". People who got too cozy with G&W being an easy character gave up when they could no longer rely on that I suppose, but he still has a lot of depth left to him and overall has the versatility, effectiveness, and yes matchup spread of a top tier character. There just aren't many people working on that right now with some unfortunate doom and gloom among... certain elements of the G&W community. That's all in everyone's head though; what matters is that this is the same G&W he always has been and always will be since the game never changes, and that G&W is one of the best equipped characters in the game for the purpose of winning.

Also, did Pierce die? This first post and first 10 pages or so have a really different character than what this thread has become, which is a general tier discussion.

EDIT: I forgot; this is useful to discussion. This thread is a better statistics thread than the one linked for certain physical values of the characters.In the case of the topic of interest recently, yes King Dedede is strictly inferior to Meta Knight in horizontal aerial mobility.
 

meepxzero

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I believe i've posted more in-depth explanaitions in the DDD boards repsective matchups threads


but vs

ICS:

Bair approach, once in, dair camp, footstool and dairs, one lands on sheilds insta-pokes (two shields and a strong rapid hit attack greatly deminishes the shields further) IF they somehow didn't poke, u can jump again/footstool away, or dair again, def. poking at least one, seperating them.
Once seperated DDD has some of the best "keep sepereated" game in the game. One being plain grabing each as they try to get near each other, bair spamming, or charging things like dsmash.

Also if u think they continue to hold shield and are afraid of them uaring out of shield between dairs u get free mixup with inhale, if u instantly spit it out it's gona hit the one u didn't inhale.

HOPEFULLY u inhalled popo so at worst the quick punishment is a jab or something.

Bairs=easier gimping capabilities than mk's dair, as it flat out can beat IC's side b, sending them far back off, and lower at low %. also charge sidesmash is nice here, the range and power on that makes it easier to hit, something mk's fsmash lacks (i often take the side b when i try to time mk's fsmash to hit them off)

and if u grab one (right next to the other) i like uthrow instead of foward
its fast enough u can throw one up, it pushes the other back, u grab the other, throw up into the other, air chase original, repeat (also easy seperation, but don't look for grabs its risky as balls)

There's also the factor (don't know if u count in in the meta gameness of the matchup) that ddd is harder to inf. and takes longer to kill=more chances of messing up.


Only "gay" thing about the matchup is the edgeguards to be honest.

No IC's do it vs ddd cuz they're dumb and i may be regreting saying this.
All they gotta do from a grab is take to the edge into a fair spike, and grab ledge, wait for up b as nana still has ledge, get up, grab it, new grab inf. or fair spike again (keep in mind ddd doesn't get any jumps back in this process)


but yea, thats only one real advantage IC's have in the matchup that I see being a problem. And THAT assumes the DDD got grabbed to begin with.

Then if DDD does get a lead I feel he's harder to approach while platform camping than MK, but that's just me and my experiences.








OLI:
One simple thing that throws this matchup into ddd's favor, though slightly, is inhale.
It beats 80% of oli's move set, including run up grab (lol) and sometimes pivot grab depending on ur placement and which pikmen it is. It's also a really good edgeguard solution to Oli's down B, throw off stage, turn and prepare to bair, if the oli jumps at all, than tries to time down b for ur bair, DDD can just reverse inhale instead (land on stage) walk off, (provided oli isn't mashing out fast) and spit semi-low (or higher depending on amount of pikmen) Oli (though ddd landed) does not get his jump back and depending on how low you got, most likely wont reach the edge with up-b even with full pikmen.
anything close range get's beat by grab, d-throw tech chase is easiest in the game, and he dies early.

Nair/utilt do a good job of breaking off multiple pikmen attatched to you in one to two hits, and as for an approach treat it like IC's. Bair approach (if they side b'd u alot nair some on the way or ignore) then once close dair shield/inhale ALOT (beats 80% of the **** oli can do at this point) and his roll is so bad he sometimes can't get away even if he were to predict it.


Pikachu:

this one is best left to vids i'm gonna have up in the next couple weeks. its still in testing process but from a sudden shift in playstyle i went from getting three stocked by esam, to borderline always beating him. and threestocking lesser pikachu's. (esam lives down the street) all it takes is for the DDD to NOT play like DDD, and I suppose more like a MK would vs IC's. Platforms are your friend.



if there's any questions, i'd appreciate them to be directed to my PM box instead of a post here, as I don't like checking up on such reply happy threads. (to time consuming)



hope i've helped, even a little.
whhhaaattt?? you crazyyy!!!
 

PhantomX

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I wouldn't recommend footstooling the ICs when they're both together, the other one can grab you out of the footstool animation (and you can't footstool the both of them) when you dip before jumping.
 

Alphicans

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I like how G&W mythically "became worse" (even though that's impossible; the game hasn't changed). A bunch of people just stopped playing him so he lost the popularity contest; it doesn't mean a thing. The comment about how Snake can't drop as long as Ally plays is the most misguided of all, and it indicates a lot of the wrongheaded thoughts about G&W. Snake is just as good or bad as he is regardless if Ally or any other players exist, and G&W is the same way. Claims that he's "predictable" are patently absurd; predictability is a function of the player, and even if you do "predict" something, it's not the significant detail. What matters is winning and losing, and what that means is that predicting I'm going to use turtle and then getting hit by it or really doing anything that isn't hitting me or somehow putting me at the disadvantage is fine by me (if no one takes damage, I probably did shield damage, limited their options, and gained space which is winning the exchange).

Just look at G&W, really. He's not slow, he's ridiculously powerful, and he has massive disjointed range. His mobility is well above average, especially when you factor in how amazing Fire and dair are. He is one of the best characters in the game at approaching an opponent in a defensive position. He is poor on Final Destination but really exceptional at exploiting the stage geography on just about literally every other stage (the only other stage that has ever been legal anywhere that I don't think this applies to is Mario Circuit, FYI). G&W is flush with good moves in general even with a plethora of assorted great properties on those moves like fast charge release, lingering hitboxes, windboxes, invincibility, etc.; his only bad move is Judgment Hammer with his only legitimately unuseful move aside from that being utilt (ftilt and Chef, while near the bottom of his moveset, have more use found for them as time goes on and are definitely handy). It is hilarious that people consistently took over 10% damage from the turtle, got hit by dthrow to dsmash, and ran right into usmash when the game was new. Really, that was great. Just because people stopped sucking at fighting G&W doesn't mean they "figured him out". People who got too cozy with G&W being an easy character gave up when they could no longer rely on that I suppose, but he still has a lot of depth left to him and overall has the versatility, effectiveness, and yes matchup spread of a top tier character. There just aren't many people working on that right now with some unfortunate doom and gloom among... certain elements of the G&W community. That's all in everyone's head though; what matters is that this is the same G&W he always has been and always will be since the game never changes, and that G&W is one of the best equipped characters in the game for the purpose of winning.

Also, did Pierce die? This first post and first 10 pages or so have a really different character than what this thread has become, which is a general tier discussion.
I'd have to completely agree with this post. People are so quick to disregard GaW as a very good character, even when they have a character like snake in front of them.
 

kozimoto

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is it know if the tier list is based off a point system like the 2nd one (out of 15.00)? if so i think top tier will be mk with 15 and snake will be between 14.80-15 and diddy kong below somewhere in the 14's i dont think IC's will go up that high.
 

meepxzero

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Money match?


Meet me at Halloween tourny in GA


Or I'll see you at Pound 4. :)
we can mm @ pound 4.

Dair camping ic sounds interesting, but i dunno if it really is that effective. MKs dair camping isnt even that reliable against ic unless if perfectly horizontally spaced and DDD has no horizontal spacing with his dair. I agree with the fact DDD has to stay in the air or he gets destroyed on the ground by desynch grab set ups (iceblock/blizzard ~> grab).

The way u mentioned how ic should edgeguard i do edgeguard them that way. Killing there jumps if they up b below the stage and spiking them over and over again. It never comes down to that cuz i infinite ~> death 95% of the time (DDD isnt that hard to cg).

The only advantages DDD has over ic is bair ***** our recovery if we over b into DDD all the time and his fthrow is somewhat good at desynching and has a greater grab range (DDD can literally stand in one spot and just throw us if we dash approach).

Ic win if they play gay and campy, but yea they lose if they try approaching. But its brawl why approach?

EDIT: ic only lose to snake on neutrals.....
 

Sensei Seibrik

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By the logic of the last line, it seems even. A matchup that comes down to who's winning, to me is even.

a matchup that comes down to the trailing person still winning in the end= uneven.



I'm willing to argue that ddd has the advantage until proven otherwise, but won't accept anything less than even.
 

Metakill

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I'll put my prediction of tier list,

1. Snake
2. Metaknight
3. Diddy Kong
4. Falco
5. Wario
6. Marth

7. King DDD
8. Mr. Game & Watch
9. Olimar
10. Ice Climbers
11. Pikachu
12. R.O.B.
13. Kirby

14. Lucario
15. Toon Link
16. Zero Suit Samus
17. Pit
18. Donkey Kong

19. Peach
20. Luigi
21. Fox
22. Wolf
23. Sonic
24. Sheik

25. Bowser
26. Zelda
27. Pokémon Trainer
28. Mario

29. Lucas
30. Ness
31. Yoshi
32. Samus
33. Ike

34. Jigglypuff
35. Captain Falcon
36. Ganondorf
37. Link

i can't explain 'cause i don't speak english as well (is correctly?)

the only thing that i can say is...
MK is so overrated, snake can beat it so easy, and others like Marth, Falco, Diddy (in my opinion)
 

Nic64

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Snake is so overrated now it's ********, his tools aren't comparable to Meta Knight's at all, they don't belong in the same tier, much less with reversed order.
 

Loota

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Wtf with Lucario's placement with some of the recent posted tier lists o_o No way he is dropping any lower, 1 spot at maxinum. He belongs to the bottom of A Tier without necessarily rising any spots. He could pass Kirby but ZZS will overpass Lucario on the other hand.

If Ganondorf doesn't get his own Ganon Tier I will cry. He so deseves it =D That would be the best thing ever happened in Brawl.
 

Kewkky

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Wtf with Lucario's placement with some of the recent posted tier lists o_o No way he is dropping any lower, 1 spot at maxinum. He belongs to the bottom of A Tier without necessarily rising any spots. He could pass Kirby but ZZS will overpass Lucario on the other hand.

If Ganondorf doesn't get his own Ganon Tier I will cry. He so deseves it =D That would be the best thing ever happened in Brawl.
ZSS is definitely high, but she still has limitations. Other characters have less trouble finding ways to make the opponent fall into their baits (ZSS is just a ****ing good punisher, she doesn't harass the opponent into falling for her traps).
 
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