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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #13: Lucario

demonictoonlink

demonictoonlink

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Ever play the Marronator? He's pretty good as Lucario.
I say 55-45 Tink. The only real thing to watch out for is Aura Sphere frame traps as well as Fsmash frame traps. Those get annoying, especially for a Zair heavy Tink like mine.

Jerm is an elitist Toon Link that isn't good enough to be among the ranks of the elite.
 
phi1ny3

phi1ny3

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ckm said:
yes, lucario can cling on FD. However, if he uses his upb to cling, his only option afterwards will be to wallrun up to the stage. TL should be able to just Dair him as he runs up over the lip and its all over for him.

just camp the **** out of him and avoid AS until he is in killing percentage (or close to it.. once he is at high percents he will try to camp you, since his AS will beat your rang and arrows), then move in for the kill.

Lucario is slow and predictable, and AS is easily avoided. TL has great arial maneuverability, making it very difficult for Lucario to chase after him & actually inflict damage.

One thing TL should watch out for is the dair gimp. Dair, if placed correctly, will **** TL's upb, often resulting in a nasty stage spike. Also, don't tether unless you have to because dair ***** that too.

one stage that should be considered for counterpick that has not been mentioned is Halberd. Lucario has poor vertical launch resistance, and rarely kills upward. Take him to halberd where you kill early and he dies early and you have a pretty good advantage. I suppose the stage size is a bit less than you might want for the matchup, but I think the blast zone factor is most important for Lucario because it prevents him from utilizing the one thing that makes him good--aura boost.
Click to expand...
If you AD after walljumping, dair shouldn't be a problem :D
However, if Halberd is a good stage for you guys (I think it is), definitely get lucario there. Lucario has okay vertical kill options (uair is all that's really needed, there's good setups for it and it ***** AD + has good range) but it's a very limited pool, which means I guess in a way, yes, he' isn't very good at KOing off the top.
I think TL should just ledgedrop -> nair if lucario goes for wallcling, that's definitely better than risking via dair, plus nair is quick.
demonictoonlink said:
Ever play the Marronator? He's pretty good as Lucario.
I say 55-45 Tink. The only real thing to watch out for is Aura Sphere frame traps as well as Fsmash frame traps. Those get annoying, especially for a Zair heavy Tink like mine.

Jerm is an elitist Toon Link that isn't good enough to be among the ranks of the elite.
Click to expand...
Marronator is meh. He's good at spacing, but he's really predictable (unless he's gotten a lot better within the past month or so) and a bit slow. I think D. Disciple is better, or even Anther for a Midwest area lucario.
 
phi1ny3

phi1ny3

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Seriously though, before we knew he was getting famous for his pikachu, he actually had a decent lucario lol.
But ya, I'd say 50:50, although TL is really amazing in the MU when getting lucario up to the 70% mark or so.
 
phi1ny3

phi1ny3

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Just a little thing I thought you guys would like to see, it's a list of TL's projectiles and when they get beat by lucario's FCAS:
Originally posted by John12346
0% beats Toon Link's uncharged Arrows.
104% beats Toon Link's fully charged Arrows.
58% beats Toon Link's Boomerang.
Can't beat Toon Link's Bombs.
Click to expand...
Kind of trivial, but good to keep in mind.

Edit: Nevermind, something seems wrong with this list.
 
TLMSheikant

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Hmm. Many ppl said 55-45 TL. But then changed their mind to even :/. Ill go with 55-45 TL. TL can be really gay for Luc when racking damage, the problem is when going for the kill. But of course, watching out for fsmash and using bair as a safe kill move (if unstale) can solve that problem to an extent (tho TL will have to rack more damage to kill).
 
Sosuke

Sosuke

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Lucario is so easy until he gets to the ~100 percentages. >___<
It's like Snake's Ftilt for every move.
 
TLMSheikant

TLMSheikant

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^ yes and thats why it is very annoying to kill him. And thats why it isnt a worst matchup for Luc. 55-45 is actually even u know. >_>
 
WindMajor

WindMajor

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I would say it's even. TL can keep outcamping Lucario until we get the opening, but Lucario's can keep poking holes through our defenses. It can go either way.
 
Radori Nighthawk

Radori Nighthawk

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You know, we sure do have alot of good matchup with character higher than us in the tier list.

Diddy, (I think it's a TL advantage) D3, IC's (Very big one here, space flawlessly)

Our matchups aren't that bad excluding the Falco and MK one. We have potential. :D
 
TLMSheikant

TLMSheikant

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I faced Hyper's Lucario yesterday. And its definetely very even. I saved some replays, Ill see if I can upload them somehow. Summary tomorrow or monday. Going to a tourney now.
 
WindMajor

WindMajor

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TLMSheikant said:
I faced Hyper's Lucario yesterday. And its definetely very even. I saved some replays, Ill see if I can upload them somehow. Summary tomorrow or monday. Going to a tourney now.
Click to expand...
I faced Hyper and DusK's Lucario in today's tournament, and I agree. It's 50-50. Some things I noticed are that it's not hard to outcamp Lucario, but while recovering, the aura gets annoying. Also, Dair sucks. It sends you flying upwards, and can stage spike. Lucario also has nice range on his smash attacks. Watch out.
 
TLMSheikant

TLMSheikant

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I played against Dusk's Lucario yesterday too in tourney. Playing melee at the same time as brawl in the tournament made me almost lose to him first round. After I stopped playing melee and practicing brawl I was back :). I still beat Dusk obviously, but I played sloppily as hell. I think its even. Its not that hard to outcamp Lucario of course, but his fsmash is too good.
 
TLMSheikant

TLMSheikant

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Summary

Even 50-50



Lucario frame data (Credit to phi1ny3)

Best stage to fight Lucario on:



Worst stage to fight Lucario on:



A good post by TwinkatGC about AS vs TL's proyectiles

Summary:

Lucario is a very unique character as you may already know. His attacks get stronger as he takes more damage. Toon Link can outcamp Lucario though. Bombs destroy aura spheres most of the time. Toon Link's problem in this matchup is getting the kill since Toon Link's kill moves are very predictable and lack power. And if the Lucario is at high percents, getting punished by Lucario because of a whiffed kill move usually means a lot of damage or a stock. Be careful of Lucario's Forward Smash, it has trascendent priority, a lot of range, power and almost no cooldown lag. If Lucario hits your shield with it, dont try to punish it as he will be able to act before you. Lucario's recovery is very lackluster. Usually an offstage Lucario can eat a lot of damage because his recovery doesnt attack at all; meaning you can hang from the ledge and he has no option but to aim his recovery to land on the stage letting you attack him in his lag. Good stages to fight a Lucario include Rainbow Cruise, Halberd and Lylat Cruise. You should ban Frigate Orpheon.

Moves that are very helpful in this matchup: :toonlink:
Bombs, Bair, Boomerang, Zair, Nair, Arrows, Fair

Moves that you should watch out for the most: :lucario:
Fsmash, Jab to grab, Fair, Aura Sphere, Down Air

TL;DR: No TL;DR anymore. Lrn 2 read.
 
Radori Nighthawk

Radori Nighthawk

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TLMSheikant said:
Mk, Falco, Olimar, Marth and Snake. But they arent **** matchups. We sure do have potential ;).
Click to expand...
We rack on damage on Snake VERY quickly and not being within a characters length of him makes it hard from him to hit you. This way, no F-tilts and no down throw tech chasing TRY TO KEEP AWAY FROM UP TILT at high percents. If you get an MK that doesn't perfect shield...it shouldn't be to hard. But if he does...:( Marth can get pretty annoying as well seeing how the only move he really will be using is fair since it swat out stuff away so well. His upB and forward B are pretty annoying as well. Camp as hard as you can and you NEED projectile setups against him since his swordplay ***** ours. FALCO IS A PAIN IN. I HATE HIS GUTS! OH MY GOD THAT BIRD.

I really don't have trouhle on Olimar. PERFECTLY SPACED Nair to arrow cancel ***** HARD. (If you mispace it Oli gets a free upsmash) Hell arrow cancels **** hard in that matchup period. Beat beat Pyronic Star's Olimar 2 games to 0 in a small smashfest tourney. He happens to be #3 on MD/VA's power rankings. I was so proud of myself. :)
 
.REMIX.

.REMIX.

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Hmmm. I think this MU is 50-50 IMO. lucario can get very annoying though >.< We can't just gimp them as easily as you put it. to gimp a lucario with tl every stock is almost impossible on players like zucco. though i do agree with the cp's. Though there is one thing... While we are winning % wise, we are also losing >.> it is truly a pain killing them and they get stronger the higher the percent. Only problem i truly have with this mu is killing. Our strong point in this MU is racking up some damage offstage and by the ledge IMO. He only has one recovery option and it is hard for him to hit us with much on the ledge if we just zair grab the ledge to catch invincibility, then he will use up and THATS when we start racking damage with aerials.
 
Kaffei

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Power Shield Lucario's fsmash = guaranteed grab= happy kaffei
 
Heavy Metal KiLLeR

Heavy Metal KiLLeR

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Radori Nighthawk said:
We rack on damage on Snake VERY quickly and not being within a characters length of him makes it hard from him to hit you. This way, no F-tilts and no down throw tech chasing TRY TO KEEP AWAY FROM UP TILT at high percents. If you get an MK that doesn't perfect shield...it shouldn't be to hard. But if he does...:( Marth can get pretty annoying as well seeing how the only move he really will be using is fair since it swat out stuff away so well. His upB and forward B are pretty annoying as well. Camp as hard as you can and you NEED projectile setups against him since his swordplay ***** ours. FALCO IS A PAIN IN. I HATE HIS GUTS! OH MY GOD THAT BIRD.

I really don't have trouhle on Olimar. PERFECTLY SPACED Nair to arrow cancel ***** HARD. (If you mispace it Oli gets a free upsmash) Hell arrow cancels **** hard in that matchup period. Beat beat Pyronic Star's Olimar 2 games to 0 in a small smashfest tourney. He happens to be #3 on MD/VA's power rankings. I was so proud of myself. :)
Click to expand...
Isn't that easy against Olimar, the point is that a lot of olimars will fall into Nair to QD, but he can counter it without much effort...just powershielding and grabbing, our sitting in his shield, to maybe get a grab also. And we stay very predicable against olimar. Our bombs are bad on this MU, c'mon, this isn't good, since olimar pikmins can block our projectiles and his smashes and grabs can outrange our sword...
Falco ***** us so hard.
Snake is snake. If you get the lead you can win, if he gets the lead, the game becomes hard and gay.
Agree with Mk. If they don't know how to powershield we can win. But if they do...



About Lucario...We can't kill him so easily...so he can play VERY GAY when he reachs 100% or more, because Fsmash spaces nice and AS is big. TL have all his stuff, so be creative and camp him without being hit by a AS.
50-50.
 
Hyro

Hyro

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Oh I figured out this matchup at hobo 22 when I played treeela!!

What you do is stay grounded. Yeah, that means be a noob and throw ****...from the ground. At higher percents...(and lower too I guess), Lucario know how short hoppy we are, so they bait us in the air with aura spheres and combo us from there. At higher percents they do the same for the kill. Sometimes with uair, sometimes with aura sphere.

Bascially, hold stock. The first to get the kill is usually gonna win, but that's not always the case. Usually I get killed by an aura sphere that goes throw an arrow/boomerang or by getting baited into the air. If you just stay on the ground and throw boomerangs, shoot arrows and throw bombs right ahead, there's not much Lucario can do before you can react. You can just run away. Since you are on the ground, you can easily powershield all aura spheres. So yeah. Chill out on the jumping.
 
MJG

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^This is very interesting to be honest...As stated earlier, F smash, at a certain percentage will wreck us...Bombs are a very nice way to stop Aura Sphere at any percentage (<3 bombs). Not jumping up is gonna be hard >_>

Hyro, I thought you had lee to play with? I guess you guys aren't in the same crew (or im assuming he just goes Marth or MK on you). And did you mean to stop jumping when lucario is at a certain percent (like past 120 or so)?
 
Hyro

Hyro

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No, but especially at high percents.

We don't have crews lol we all play with each other...but no Lee stopped using other characters on me, he only goes MK now. But even back then he never would go Lucario. It's always been MK. At one point he tried Wario until I got good at that matchup, then Marth till I got good at that, now it's nothing but meta. Maybe Diddy in the future tho...
 
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