The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

Tien2500 · Oct 5, 2009

TheReflexWonder said:
Zero Switching, better use of movement with Squirtle and Charizard (Hydrograbbing and Dragon Dancing, mostly), expanding the use of Ivysaur's excellent gimping game, and NOT SUCKING WITH IVYSAUR have gone a long way, actually, as well as people actually learning how to play the character (although not sucking with Ivysaur is the same thing, heh), and recently, True Hydroplaning.

O_o... Dragon Dancing? I don't even know what that one is and I couldn't find a thread about it on the PT boards. Please explain this or point me in the right direction.

Nidtendofreak · Oct 5, 2009

Tien2500 said:
So are you suggesting we use the tournament results of one month as a basis for our tier lists?

Seeing as it was barely over a month for the last tier list when Reflex started posting consistent results: yes, that's what I'm saying what many people seem to do.

If so you get Link>Ike. Link>Peach. Ganon>Ness and all kinds of ridiculous things.

I know it's ridiculous, which is why I find the idea of PT rising even more so laughable.

Most characters in the bottom half of that list would drop like a rock if a top player didn't play much as them.

Yes, but it doesn't mean a character shouldn't jump up from a trampoline if a new top player picks them up.

Since you're mentioning hydroplaning as a recent development in PTs metagame I have to assume you don't know the character that well. We've known about hydroplaning/hydrograbbing for about half a year now... Last week? Lol. That pretty much exposes your knowledge of the character.

I meant the new one Reflex mentioned last weak where you can do anything out of it. He talked about taunting out of it and stuff like that.

Please note the use of the word "thing" at the end of the word "hydroplaning". I'm referring to the fact it's somewhat similar, but I don't remember what it's called. I should have been more clear, but Reflex made it quite clear that they were two different things. Heck, next post Reflex calls it "True Hydroplanning", which means I was very much on the right trail. More so then you I might add.

Zero Switching

For two characters on three stages? Yes sir, that is a match-up changer right there. >_>

better use of movement with Squirtle and Charizard (Hydrograbbing and Dragon Dancing, mostly),

If by Hydrograbbing you mean the old hydro thing: that's player development. Nothing about the physical character changed. It's similar to Ikes realizing in the first week "Hey, QD sucks as a recovery. We should stop using it."

expanding the use of Ivysaur's excellent gimping game, and NOT SUCKING WITH IVYSAUR have gone a long way, actually, as well as people actually learning how to play the character (although not sucking with Ivysaur is the same thing, heh),

See above.

and recently, True Hydroplaning.

The one thing that is actually worth noting out of the lot. And like I said before: if it's proven to be usable in tournaments without giving yourself away, I'll say PT belongs in bottom of D tier.

One of these days I should write up my whole argument in a blog on this site, instead of only showing factors of it as needed. -_-

Tien2500 · Oct 5, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
Seeing as it was barely over a month for the last tier list when Reflex started posting consistent results: yes, that's what I'm saying what many people seem to do.

Ummm no? No offense but its one month of tier lists. And if we're doing this fairly lets take the top player for each character out of the equation and see what happens then. Its one month. And reflex is indeed great but his not so amazing at this game that he's a statistical outlier and his results shouldn't count for some reason.

[quoteI meant the new one Reflex mentioned last weak where you can do anything out of it. He talked about taunting out of it and stuff like that.

Well you were more on the right trail then me because you're the one who said it -_-... Obviously you knew what you meant better than I did. I thought you meant regular old hydroplaning.

For two characters on three stages? Yes sir, that is a match-up changer right there. >_>

You're guaranteed to be able to do this for at least one match out of a set, two if Smashville is picked for the neutral. It definitely is very useful in some matches.

If by Hydrograbbing you mean the old hydro thing: that's player development. Nothing about the physical character changed. It's similar to Ikes realizing in the first week "Hey, QD sucks as a recovery. We should stop using it."

Hydrograbbing is a sliding grab that travels about 1/3 the way across FD out of a shellshift. I don't know what you mean by the old hydro thing.

Toby. · Oct 5, 2009

Squirtle is crazy good and is constantly evolving. The squirtle metagame has rapidly evolved over the past few months, and this growth has been consistent.

We have any percent instant kills on some characters on a number of stages. Several of these stages, such as jungle japes, are traditionally considered bad for pokemon trainer. The addition of instant kills we can perform on these stages makes pokemon trainer far more robust in the counterpick process that we had previously thought.

So yes, pokemon trainer is getting better all the time.

And reflex isn't the only PT who places at tournaments.

Edit: though I think dragon dancing is pretty limited in use, especially if we're using f-air. Just saying.

Tien2500 · Oct 5, 2009

Toby. said:
Squirtle is crazy good and is constantly evolving. The squirtle metagame has rapidly evolved over the past few months, and this growth has been consistent.

We have any percent instant kills on some characters on a number of stages. Several of these stages, such as jungle japes, are traditionally considered bad for pokemon trainer. The addition of instant kills we can perform on these stages makes pokemon trainer far more robust in the counterpick process that we had previously thought.

So yes, pokemon trainer is getting better all the time.

And reflex isn't the only PT who places at tournaments.

Edit: though I think dragon dancing is pretty limited in use, especially if we're using f-air. Just saying.

WTF is up with these instakills and techs. Can someone please Link me to info about this stuff or is it all going on in the PT back room?

Justblaze647 · Oct 5, 2009

It kinda would defeat the purpose of the boards if only the backroom gets the good stuff...

O_o

Toby. · Oct 5, 2009

The backroom and AIM, mostly.

If you hydrograb ledge release properly you can footstool a lot of characters for the kill. On Japes you can footstool them into the water, then kill them by gimping their recovery. It's easy enough. It's also pretty easy to footstool them shortly after the klaptrap passes so they run straight into it.

Dragon dancing is simply a combination of aerials and tilts to create a walling effect. Charizard isnt very good at it, unless you use bair.

And don't worry, the Pt boards will get a full write up eventually. I've been mucho busy with university work, life etc.

Praxis · Oct 5, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
It was SOMEBODY's theorycrafting. Extreme theorycrafting. The theorycrafting that was JUST explained to be a terrible way to discuss things. The same person who has been theorycrafting flat out insane things like PT being in C/B tier. But as usual, everyone is just jumping onto the bandwagon without thinking because he's well known.

Anyone who says G&W isn't A tier is a freaking idiot. Sorry, harsh truth there, but it is the truth. That's like saying MK should be Bottom of A tier because "You know what he's going to do, and almost everyone can beat the tornado or DI out of it." Or that Snake should be B tier because "He recovery is predictable, and all you have to do to win is bait a tilt, punish it, and then time your planking correctly as to not get hit by a cooked nade."

^^^

Hi.

G&W is probably not A tier.

I have beaten almost every G&W in the country, with a crappy mid tier character, whom by all rights is one of G&W's best matchups. Consider that Peach has the worst airdodge in the game by such a horrific margin as to have three times the lag frames as Metaknights and unable to airdodge through any of G&W's aerials, and a projectile that is absorbed on contact with any of G&W's aerials, and is, against a good opponent, unable to kill G&W until 200%, every stock.

Most players don't understand how to fight G&W. We're talking about a character with absolutely no safe approach, where virtually every one of his aerials barring a retreating-only nair can be punished once players understand certain flaws of them (say, being able to drop shield and jab in the gap between certain hits of G&W's bair, or SDI through it and bair him when it hits). On top of the lack of approach, he has the lack of a projectile to force his opponents to approach, and a slow run speed. And, the statement you will likely object to: he lacks a reliable kill move. None of his kill moves can really be done as punishments, only reads- making constant safe choices means you will virtually never be hit by them at kill percentages.

$20 MM at Genesis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S26v0x2ldo8

Older:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH6PJk4LWrs

Not theorycraft. Practice.

G&W's metagame has already peaked. There are no ATs to explore and very little left as far as directions to explore. He has terrible matchups against all of the top characters. He will drop as more people recognize his flaws. Compare UTD Zac vs Tyrant to UTD Zac vs Havok. Zac beats Tyrant, but loses to Havok 2-0, double two stock, because Havok understands the character and exactly how to shut him down, essentially only using ftilt, dtilt, and shuttle loop the entire match. IIRC, Havok also 2-0'd double two stocked Valdens on the same day at the same tournament. ( <3 UTD Zac)

He's not a bad character. But he is an extremely limited character, and not tournament viable alone, IMO.

Please, call me an idiot again.

SuSa · Oct 5, 2009

Hey, look. A like minded individual who agrees with me to an extent.

I still feel G&W is A tier (he does give plenty of characters a hard time) but I feel he is overrated. Bottom of A tier imo.

I just don't see ROB and Kirby being better then him.

Praxis · Oct 5, 2009

TheReflexWonder said:
As stupid as it might sound, people aren't playing "correctly".

I will MM your Wario for $10 next tournament we mutually attend. :3

I think that MK, Snake, and Falco could stand to play her better, but she's actually perfectly fine against most of the cast. She's still bad, mid tier, but below Wolf? >_>

Tien2500 · Oct 5, 2009

Toby. said:
The backroom and AIM, mostly.

If you hydrograb ledge release properly you can footstool a lot of characters for the kill. On Japes you can footstool them into the water, then kill them by gimping their recovery. It's easy enough. It's also pretty easy to footstool them shortly after the klaptrap passes so they run straight into it.

Dragon dancing is simply a combination of aerials and tilts to create a walling effect. Charizard isnt very good at it, unless you use bair.

And don't worry, the Pt boards will get a full write up eventually. I've been mucho busy with university work, life etc.

Cool look forward to trying this stuff out. I can't imaging Zard walling that well though except against chars that can't approach.

.Marik · Oct 5, 2009

I see a lot of talk about Squirtle being good.

Now, this is where Yoshi is actually useful.

To an extent, at least.

Praxis · Oct 5, 2009

SuSa said:
Hey, look. A like minded individual who agrees with me to an extent.

I still feel G&W is A tier (he does give plenty of characters a hard time) but I feel he is overrated. Bottom of A tier imo.

I just don't see ROB and Kirby being better then him.

Right now, I agree. But as his metagame has peaked, I think he will continue dropping and eventually not even be A tier.

Kirby has the same problem as G&W. He has no reliable kill moves that can be used as punishments unless he saves his bair, which is his best spacing tool. He's fairly limited and has no way to force opponents to approach.

ROB has a horrifying matchup against MK. I don't actually believe he does that bad against G&W (I know a ton of tricks in the matchup that I haven't shared, and the ROB I did show it to was unable to master it like I have) that makes G&W's bair virtually unusable and his other aerials risky except when punishing an airdodge/recovery. I actually think it's near even. What else is bad about ROB? He seems like he has potential to grow...he doesn't really **** anyone, he doesn't really get ***** by anyone except MK (who ***** G&W too).

I can see ROB passing G&W, I think. I think G&W will keep dropping in future lists.

EDIT:
It's worth noting that Green Ace and I share all our anti-G&W tricks, and he has beaten OmegaBlackMage with Yoshi more than once in tournament.

I really don't believe don't believe G&W ***** anyone in the cast. People just don't understand how to fight him. Consider that his best matchups in the game should be, in theory, ROB (bad airdodge, bad shield, one projectile bucketable), Peach (bad airdodge, projectile negated by all aerials), and Yoshi (no OOS punishment, limited recovery); all of which I've outlined and don't think really do that bad (no worse than 60:40). Ok, and probably Ganondorf too, but G&W actually does **** him, as does everyone.

I truly believe G&W has no matchups in the game better than 60:40 his favor, excepting absolute bottom tier (Ganondorf). Even Link performs fine, and G&W can't beat Jigglypuff planking (his run speed isn't enough to deal with Jigglypuff crossing the stage from underneath; she can just turn around once he starts running). :3

SuSa · Oct 5, 2009

I see ROB as slightly overrated as well, then again, he's one of the characters I know far less about then any other character.

Because the WC has like... no ROB's.

At all.

So my experience comes from friendlies, using ROB, and WiFi. =\

His camping... isn't that great, his tilts are a saving grace. Dsmash is SDI'd, fsmash and usmash should only be landing as a punish or if the opponent made a dire mistake, his nair/bair should never be hitting except as a punish against someone (whom obviously doesn't know the matchup if they get hit by other, unless it was simply a mistake)

So that leaves ROB with fair gimps, sub-par projectiles (that aren't that spammable... hold his Gyro, know he can only use laser once every 2 seconds, and its fully charged at 15 seconds...), nair can be dodged by timing your airdodge properly (unless you are Peach), same with bair. His spike is almost as poor as Snakes (IMO), his recovery. While good, can still be beat out by creating a wall (with projectiles) so him recovering is harder then people think.

Meh. :/ I digress.

N.A.G.A.C.E · Oct 5, 2009

i somewhat agree with praxis that g&w is not that tough to beat. one of the guys i often play against only plays g&w and once you get use to the characters movements he is not that hard to beat. Even when i use to main zelda i was able to get wins in tournaments against some decent g&w's. i still think he is a a tier character but in truth he has a hard time killing with slow smashes which means his f-air is his most reliable kill move. so more or less if you play smart he is not that big of problem. he is still strong and his b-air is still pretty good against most people thats why he wont leave the a tier at least not in the next tier list

Dark.Pch · Oct 5, 2009

I'm just gonna put it like this. G&W is overratted. And the big reason for that is:

- Bair
- Overpowered

Done. People butt riding these 2 things about him and just hype this clown to no end. Yet He is simple as hell. Anyone who dares says other wise is an idiot that ether mains him, or plays him. Or just not know much about him and just go by my list above. Not much to this typical fool. Even at high levels of play..............nothing new. Same ****. Cause if people really wanna hype this up with crap like this, then I would go on as to say Peach is better than him because:

Peach Has a Small disadvantage Vs Snake/ Even (Debatable between the 2)
Peach has a small Disadvantage Vs G&W
Peach goes even/Small disadvantage Vs Falco (debatable between the 2)
Peach goes even with DDD
Peach goes even with Pikachu
Peach Beats Wario
Peach beats Olimar
Peach Beats Diddy
Peach Beats IC
Peach goes Even with Kirby.
(Not good Vs ROB to say anything on this at all)

Now this is all with a character that can't freaking kill well. So lets be for real. As I said before, the day people actually start using their brains to think more then lean to BS, thats when people will realize what G&W really is.

And for those going on saying "But Meta and snake is the same **** as usual, same typical BS from them" Yea, it is the same crap. Difference is, these fools have more variety and more of a throw off game than G&W. And have more options. And Not as limited as G&W.

If people wanna to say G&W is all that cause of being over powered and 2-3 moves that people spam with him, this tier list would be in reverse. People were born with brains, and after a year of this crappy game being out, people still to this day fail to use them. Complaining and BS'ing about the same crap for a year. Still hearing it all. People are not learning anything. At all.

Nidtendofreak · Oct 5, 2009

@Praxis: Way to dig up an old post. >_> And I never said how high in A tier, just A tier.

He has too much going for him, even with people getting used to him.

And I would consider Dsmash and Usmash fairly safe kill moves.

Oh, and *applies "Most players don't understand how to fight G&W" to Reflex's PT* If other people can use that statement, why can't I without being yelled at? >_>

Dark.Pch · Oct 5, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
@Praxis: Way to dig up an old post. >_> And I never said how high in A tier, just A tier.

He has too much going for him, even with people getting used to him.

And I would consider Dsmash and Usmash fairly safe kill moves.

Oh, and *applies "Most players don't understand how to fight G&W" to Reflex's PT* If other people can use that statement, why can't I without being yelled at? >_>

Not many know how to fight PT or know much about him. Cause people really don't care about him. True story. They just focus on characters people use so much and play gay with. No one can Deny that. Not even Reflex

But I wanna know just what G&W has going for him. Please explain this to me. He has so much going for him? How so?

adumbrodeus · Oct 5, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
@Praxis: Way to dig up an old post. >_> And I never said how high in A tier, just A tier.

He has too much going for him, even with people getting used to him.

And I would consider Dsmash and Usmash fairly safe kill moves.

Oh, and *applies "Most players don't understand how to fight G&W" to Reflex's PT* If other people can use that statement, why can't I without being yelled at? >_>

They're pretty safe, the problem is they're not reliable because he doesn't have reliable ways to set them up.

Basically he's reduced to hoping they walk into them... except in teams.

Supermodel From Paris · Oct 5, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
Oh, and *applies "Most players don't understand how to fight G&W" to Reflex's PT* If other people can use that statement, why can't I without being yelled at? >_>

Because people apply lower standards to characters that are already high or top tier. A character has to do something ridiculous to jump 5-8 spots like Sonic/Wario/ZSS have, but no one has ever fallen that much (and maybe they should).

CRASHiC · Oct 5, 2009

I believe the Olimar and D3 matchup is now 60:40 DDD.

TlocCPU said:
The Approach:
The number one reason Dedede is believed to lose this matchup is the amount of damage you take and level of difficulty it is to approach olimar. Me and fiction have derived a solid way to approach olimar. First and most importantly, you need to establish the mindset that the pikmin are not real(except purple). Ignore all pikmin that are thrown at you. Don't shield them, don't try to get them off of you, not even the whites. Run right through them and go to olimar. Take note of how many purples he has and where they are in the lineup! This is absolutely essential. You need to powershield the purples like you would falco's laser.
Now that you've gotten to olimar, you can notice that he has 2 or less pikmin because they are all on your body. Stop JUST outside of olimar's grab range. Most olimars will either dash grab or pivot grab at this point. When you get into the range I mentioned, throw out an ftilt. This will stop a dash grab or a standing grab and even an fsmash. If olimar pivot grabs take a few steps forward and start spamming that ftilt. At this point olimar is in a very difficult situation. He can either roll around you or try to jump over you. The best thing to do is expect the roll because it's harder to react to than the jump. If he rolls turn around and grab him and then backthrow him, you are now in a gimping opportunity. If he jumps, he's either going to try to jump all the way over you or he's going to attack your shield. If he attacks your shield with anything but nair, ftilt out of shield and repeat the process I just described. If he jumps clear over you follow him and wait for him to land. Try to grab or begin spacing your ftilt again. Olimar has absolutely NO safe options when you're close to him, and this makes the match very fun.

Dedede's advantage over Olimar's grab:
Olimar's grab is flawed and I completely credit fiction for figuring it out. As of now, the only dedede's that know this are me fiction and teba, and now you. TURN YOUR VOLUME UP WHEN YOU FIGHT OLIMAR!. You know that little sound olimar makes when he grabs? You need instant tech skill reaction time to it, start practicing your reaction to that sound. You either need to spot dodge on reaction or roll around olimar on reaction. If you're closer to olimar you roll if you're farther you spot dodge. If you do it on reaction, dedede's roll is faster than the grab and his spot dodge lasts longer than the grab. This is an amazing flaw in Olimar's gameplay against dedede because it takes out his only close quarters advantage. If you elect to spot dodge, ftilt immediately! If you roll around him, grab him and throw him off, another gimping opportunity.

Where we win the matchup, offstage:
Now is the most important part and I'm sure you're already good at it so i'll just throw out some advice. If oli recovers low your only choice it to try to bair his jump, but what we're actually hoping for is that olimar recovers high, which most do. Jump BELOW olimar and uair! Olimar CANNOT whistle the whole uair and the last hit will send him further offstage allowing you to grab the edge and end the stock. Practice spacing the up air right so you can send him in the correct direction, you obviously don't want to send him back to the stage. Just takes some practice, you'll get it.

Summary:
Ignore the pikmin, let them grab your body so that olimar doesn't have his weapons. Powershield the purple throw. Ftilt ftilt ftilt. The whole matchup is ftilt, it's the best move you have and it outranges every single one of olimar's moves and it kills any pikmin he tries to throw
55:45 Dedede

Seibrik said:
OLI:
One simple thing that throws this matchup into ddd's favor, though slightly, is inhale.
It beats 80% of oli's move set, including run up grab (lol) and sometimes pivot grab depending on ur placement and which pikmen it is. It's also a really good edgeguard solution to Oli's down B, throw off stage, turn and prepare to bair, if the oli jumps at all, than tries to time down b for ur bair, DDD can just reverse inhale instead (land on stage) walk off, (provided oli isn't mashing out fast) and spit semi-low (or higher depending on amount of pikmen) Oli (though ddd landed) does not get his jump back and depending on how low you got, most likely wont reach the edge with up-b even with full pikmen.
anything close range get's beat by grab, d-throw tech chase is easiest in the game, and he dies early.

Nair/utilt do a good job of breaking off multiple pikmen attatched to you in one to two hits, and as for an approach treat it like IC's. Bair approach (if they side b'd u alot nair some on the way or ignore) then once close dair shield/inhale ALOT (beats 80% of the **** oli can do at this point) and his roll is so bad he sometimes can't get away even if he were to predict it.

Thoughts?

zeldspazz · Oct 5, 2009

Zelda DK and Lucario all fell 4 spots on this list

Almost 5

Suspect · Oct 5, 2009

someone in here either

A) plays campy kirbys

B) doesnt know about kirby

but then again 95% of kirbys turtle anyways, me being one of the very few who doesnt..

Tien2500 · Oct 5, 2009

I don't know enought about Dedede to really analyze the matchup but I've also begun to ignore the damage the Pikmin deal. Typically you can do more if you get inside than they will.

Listening for his little noise is definitely interesting but I'm somewhat doubtful of the ability to react to it. Do you know how many frames there are between the noise and the actual grab?

CRASHiC · Oct 5, 2009

Tien2500 said:
I don't know enought about Dedede to really analyze the matchup but I've also begun to ignore the damage the Pikmin deal. Typically you can do more if you get inside than they will.

Listening for his little noise is definitely interesting but I'm somewhat doubtful of the ability to react to it. Do you know how many frames there are between the noise and the actual grab?

I'm afraid I do not, however, you can trust this guy, he's the best D3 on west coast.
And even then, we have a second option for approaching, in the air with bair and inhale. So, we can approach, and easily get off stage and easily gimp. Leaving the oli with very little options, if any at all.

Gindler · Oct 5, 2009

Praxis said:
Right now, I agree. But as his metagame has peaked, I think he will continue dropping and eventually not even be A tier.

Kirby has the same problem as G&W. He has no reliable kill moves that can be used as punishments unless he saves his bair, which is his best spacing tool. He's fairly limited and has no way to force opponents to approach.

ROB has a horrifying matchup against MK. I don't actually believe he does that bad against G&W (I know a ton of tricks in the matchup that I haven't shared, and the ROB I did show it to was unable to master it like I have) that makes G&W's bair virtually unusable and his other aerials risky except when punishing an airdodge/recovery. I actually think it's near even. What else is bad about ROB? He seems like he has potential to grow...he doesn't really **** anyone, he doesn't really get ***** by anyone except MK (who ***** G&W too).

I can see ROB passing G&W, I think. I think G&W will keep dropping in future lists.

EDIT:
It's worth noting that Green Ace and I share all our anti-G&W tricks, and he has beaten OmegaBlackMage with Yoshi more than once in tournament.

I really don't believe don't believe G&W ***** anyone in the cast. People just don't understand how to fight him. Consider that his best matchups in the game should be, in theory, ROB (bad airdodge, bad shield, one projectile bucketable), Peach (bad airdodge, projectile negated by all aerials), and Yoshi (no OOS punishment, limited recovery); all of which I've outlined and don't think really do that bad (no worse than 60:40). Ok, and probably Ganondorf too, but G&W actually does **** him, as does everyone.

I truly believe G&W has no matchups in the game better than 60:40 his favor, excepting absolute bottom tier (Ganondorf). Even Link performs fine, and G&W can't beat Jigglypuff planking (his run speed isn't enough to deal with Jigglypuff crossing the stage from underneath; she can just turn around once he starts running). :3

Would one of those tricks be yoshi's CG on G&W. Just release grab after they UpB>key, all the way to the edge and they die with no recovery? I've pulled that off in tourney most if not all G&Ws don't know about it.

Kewkky · Oct 5, 2009

Suspect said:
someone in here either

A) plays campy kirbys

B) doesnt know about kirby

but then again 95% of kirbys turtle anyways

Agreed. I hate the way people think Kirby is all bair, grabs and fsmash... That's a GAY Kirby playstyle, not the actual playstyle that should be played as Kirby.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Oct 5, 2009

Tien2500 said:
The problem is that matchups and looking at tools are kind of theory based, especially in the matchups department. Tournament wins/losses on the other hand are pretty objective. Underrepresentation/difficulty is an issue but most characters get at least one strong rep that shows their potential.

If you look at the tools and MU's thoughtfully and unbiased, you can come to good conclusions on the MU's.

Nefarious B said:
When I think about a character I definitely use a mix of matchups and tourney rep. However, tourney results can easily flux to the point where you really have to have been paying attention to them for a long while (which I have). Matchups are definitely the groundwork for my tier list, and should be for any other.

I agree it should be a mix. However, the recent tier list seems to be based off more so rep than the tools of the characters and their MUs.

Nefarious B said:
ZSS vs Lucario is a good example of where IMO matchups weigh more heavily than tourney results. They both usually occupy a similar area on the tier list, with each character having a few big names in the tourney scene (though L. Mart and Azen were more well known in their prime than Snakeee Dazwa and Nick are I'd say). However, I think it'd be hard to argue that ZS's matchups aren't better than Luca's, even if very slightly. They're very close in any case and should be right next to each other in the next list.

Provided the Falco MU isn't 30:70 and/or MK is an even MU, I'll agree she should be higher.

Kirby, Lucario, and ZSS are pretty close together when it comes to MU and rep.

Kinzer · Oct 5, 2009

Supermodel From Paris said:
Because people apply lower standards to characters that are already high or top tier. A character has to do something ridiculous to jump 5-8 spots like Sonic/Wario/ZSS have, but no one has ever fallen that much (and maybe they should).

You don't remember Fox taking a HUGE drop from version 1.0 to 2.0?

Kewkky said:
Agreed. I hate the way people think Kirby is all bair, grabs and fsmash... That's a GAY Kirby playstyle, not the actual playstyle that should be played as Kirby.

How do we know the Gay plastyle ISN'T the way Birky should be played?

I can tell anymore, the therm "Gay" is so overused and mistaken for "effective."

Supermodel From Paris · Oct 5, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUR_yUlZVFQ METAGAME ADVANCEMENT.

OK, I'm actually just bored.

Kewkky · Oct 5, 2009

Kinzer said:
How do we know the Gay plastyle ISN'T the way Birky should be played?

I can tell anymore, the therm "Gay" is so overused and mistaken for "effective."

Well, gay playstyles, like DMG said, is not about outplaying your opponent... It's about making them think "****, this game is stupid" and either them quitting Brawl or getting desperate and falling for everything.

Tien2500 · Oct 5, 2009

Red Ryu said:
If you look at the tools and MU's thoughtfully and unbiased, you can come to good conclusions on the MU's.

Yes but I think matchups will never be completely subjective. I'm not saying matchups are unimportant but they should be combined with objective data. If we had a better way to really analyze matchups then things would be better. Unfortunately thats not possible atm especially with the less represented characters.

Provided the Falco MU isn't 30:70 and/or MK is an even MU, I'll agree she should be higher.

I would actually call the Falco matchup 35:65. I think it is only really 30:70 on FD and possibly japes. You should always be striking FD against Falco (and in general I think its a stage ZSS should strike) and if you beat him on his neutral you can go to a stage he is limited on such as Brinstar or RC after presumably losing on his CP.

MK is not a pure even matchup. I think it falls in one of those odd zones. I don't feel comfortable calling it a 45:55 but I don't think its quite 40:60 either.

ZSS does however go neutral against Snake and has an advantage over Dedede which are two important matches Lucaro has a 40:60.

Nefarious B · Oct 5, 2009

Gindler said:
Would one of those tricks be yoshi's CG on G&W. Just release grab after they UpB>key, all the way to the edge and they die with no recovery? I've pulled that off in tourney most if not all G&Ws don't know about it.

Wait how does this work? I had a theory that ZSS could grab release MK off the ledge for an auto kill if we caught him out of falling animation from one of his specials, is that what you're talking about?

Shaya · Oct 5, 2009

Characters who can act after doing their up bs, if you grab them during it and dont damage them will not get their recoveries back.

Doesn't apply to 'normal' recoveries.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Oct 5, 2009

Tien2500 said:
Yes but I think matchups will never be completely subjective. I'm not saying matchups are unimportant but they should be combined with objective data. If we had a better way to really analyze matchups then things would be better. Unfortunately thats not possible atm especially with the less represented characters.

You know, your right.

But even with error, we can try to make the MU's as accurate as possible. There will be errors but they should be considered.

Tien2500 said:
I would actually call the Falco matchup 35:65. I think it is only really 30:70 on FD and possibly japes. You should always be striking FD against Falco (and in general I think its a stage ZSS should strike) and if you beat him on his neutral you can go to a stage he is limited on such as Brinstar or RC after presumably losing on his CP.

MK is not a pure even matchup. I think it falls in one of those odd zones. I don't feel comfortable calling it a 45:55 but I don't think its quite 40:60 either.

I'll take your word for it. I do play Falco, but I've never fought a ZZS with him.

Tien2500 said:
ZSS does however go neutral against Snake and has an advantage over Dedede which are two important matches Lucaro has a 40:60.

DDD is his worst MU, most Lucario's hate the MU. Some Lucario's don't think Snake is a 40:60, me included.

Tien2500 · Oct 6, 2009

Red Ryu said:
You know, your right.

But even with error, we can try to make the MU's as accurate as possible. There will be errors but they should be considered.

NO THERE IS NO AGREEMENT ON SMASHBOARDS EVER! DO NOT SAY I AM RIGHT!.

I'll take your word for it. I do play Falco, but I've never fought a ZZS with him.

Well there are others that say the matchup is 70:30. The Falco boards have it at 60:40 last time I checked which is ummm wrong. I definitely thing the matchup is even or better on ZSS' CP.

DDD is his worst MU, most Lucario's hate the MU. Some Lucario's don't think Snake is a 40:60, me included.

So is the Dedede matchup worse than 40:60? And by saying Snake isn't 40:60 do you mean its better or worse? All I have to go on is the Lucario matchup threads so you'll have to catch me up.

Browny · Oct 6, 2009

Completely arbitrary match-up ratios across the cast should NEVER be used in a tier discussion thread.

Took a lot of willpower to say that politely

Supermodel From Paris · Oct 6, 2009

Matchup tier lists are used in many many fighting game communities DJB.

ShadowLink84 · Oct 6, 2009

you mean objective tien. Not subjective.

Tien2500 · Oct 6, 2009

Ummm sure I guess I did. Eh good catch I guess...

The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

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