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Confusion with Momentum Cancelling

Terodactyl Yelnats

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Ok so all of us should know what Momentum cancelling is and how it helps us survive a lot longer than if we did nothing. But I recently got into a debate with one of my friends about how it helps us survive knockback and I'm not sure if I was right about Momentum canceling in the first place.
I said that to Momentum Cancel, you use your fastest aerial and fastfall it at basically the same time to counteract the vertical knockback and use your second jump (and certain special moves) to help prevent horinzontal knockback.
My friend said that you only needed to use an aerial and fastfall it to survive getting launched and that you didn't have to jump at all, only to jump to provide new momentum to get back to the stage better.

I was thoroughly convinced that the jump was necassary to survive horizontal knockback if it meant a stock and I still am. I just wanted to make a thread to try and prove my point.
 

dawall250

Smash Journeyman
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215
usually its better to jump, but sometimes jumping actually will make you kill you faster than if you didn't, it's cuz the kill zone box corners have been cut i believe.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Survival on a technical level:

You get hit. Both the attacker and the victim are frozen in hitlag (only the victim if it was a projectile). During this hitlag, the victim can utilize directional inputs to SDI. SDI is a short teleport in a direction of the user's choosing (if you are hit off the ground, down is not an option). The best way to do this is to wiggle the control stick between two adjacent inputs (such as right and up-right, as an example). Some people refer to this as quartercircle DI or QDI; I find the term misleading and unnecessary (the phrase "DI" is overloaded enough). At least anyone who didn't know before knows what it means now. For most hits, it isn't really worth going for SDI since the survival benefit is fairly small; the main use is to escape multi-hit moves.

On the frame hitlag ends, you should be holding a direction. This direction will be your DI direction (that's just normal DI). You can't oppose the knockback directly, but you can use DI perpendicular to the initial launch vector to change the direction. For a simple example, if you are hit straight left, you can't DI right to slow yourself down but you can DI up to make yourself fly up-left at the same speed you would have flown left with no DI. You want to try to aim for a corner; since the stages are all rectangular, this maximizes the distance between you and the blast zone you're flying toward.

You enter hitstun immediately at the end of hitlag. After hitstun is half finished, you are allowed to either do an aerial (the normal aerials you can do with A or the c-stick, not specials), a tether attack ("zair" is a common name for them), or airdodge. You can buffer this so don't worry about the timing. Doing an aerial immediately allows you to begin fastfalling (including during the start-up); doing an airdodge (or tether attack? not 100% sure but mostly sure) makes you wait until the airdodge finishes. I should note if you use a tether attack and it grabs the ledge, this instantly stops your flight and is a good thing to go for with the four characters able to do it (utilize DI down to make it more common). That being said, the generally best plan is to use the aerial that FINISHES the fastest. It does not matter when the hitbox comes out on your aerial; it matters when the aerial finishes executing in the air (as in when you're allowed to do something else after using the aerial). Immediately upon doing it, hit down to begin fastfalling (you hopefully used your DI to aim a little more vertical than horizontal). The fastfalling basically makes gravity stronger on you, and gravity can oppose your launch force directly. If you wanted to use a down aerial, you can just slam down on the c-stick and exploit the automatic fastfalling on c-stick down aerials to your advantage (this is sometimes the easiest way to survive even if you have a slow down aerial). It should be noted that while being launched, aerials with special momentum altering properties (such as Sonic's down aerial, R.O.B.'s back aerial, or Lucario's down aerial) lose those properties. Do not consider them when deciding what to do. A last note is that if you're holding an item (such as a turnip from Peach), throwing it still replaces your aerial like it normally would, and throwing items tends to be a very quick thing to do.

After the aerial finishes, you gain the ability to do midair jumps and special moves (and, contrary to some rumors, you do NOT regain air control, the ability to steer yourself left and right in the air with directional inputs). Unlike with normal aerials, some specials can alter your momentum while you are being launched. The most obvious examples are Mr. Game & Watch's Oil Panic (not the fully charged version), Yoshi's Egg Roll, and Donkey Kong's Spinning Kong as those stop the user completely. Some others have effects too; for instance, Fox's Reflector totally cancels the vertical component of his momentum (but he can continue to fly left or right). If you have a relevant special that will help in your situation, now is the time to use it. Otherwise, you probably want to do a mid-air jump. In general, midair jumps help you survive, but when you do one, you do receive a very small boost away from the stage. If you are nearly stopped and very close to the blast zone, you shouldn't use one. If you're traveling more quickly or are not very close to the blast zone, you are safe using one and will likely benefit. Of course, once the second half of hitstun finishes for real and you stop flying, recover as normal since you aren't flying away anymore and have normal control of your character (including air control so you probably want to be holding toward the stage by the time you get to this point).

That's about it for survival though there's one more thing. If you were hit by a meteor (an attack that launches you straight down), when hitstun is half finished, you can input a jump immediately at that point (don't do an aerial), and it will cancel all launch force. This is "meteor canceling". You cannot buffer this, and if you press X or Y before the halfway point of the hitstun, X and Y will not be accepted for a meteor cancel input at any subsequent point in that particular launch. You can still meteor cancel with tap jump though.

I suppose I could also talk about things like teching, but that is getting into stage geography and survival which is beyond the scope of this post that was already beyond the scope of the original question. The simple answer to the original question was "frequently but not always".
 

Flamingo

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More than 4 characters in the game have tether recoveries that can grab the ledge to completely cancel momentum if executed at the correct time when out of initial hitstun, when low, and close to the edge. Sheik, ZSS, Ivysaur, Olimar, Link, Toon Link, Lucas.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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You can't use special moves like that Flamingo; you can't use specials directly out of the second half of hitstun. You could tether the ledge after using an aerial with many of those characters, but that's slow and not very practical. The only characters using a tether to cancel momentum with is practical are the ones who have an actual tether attack, and that's only four characters (Link, Toon Link, Samus, Lucas).
 

Kinzer

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...Oh, I see how it is.

Err, anyway, is it possible that the ICs can use their Up-B to snap to the ledge in knockback or does that not work?
 

Zhamy

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for instance, Fox's Reflector totally cancels the vertical component of his momentum (but he can continue to fly left or right).
Just a correction on Fox's reflector - It can and will affect vertical momentum. Any Fox that's tried using a reverse shine to cancel momentum will confirm this.
 

Tidal

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Jun 19, 2009
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Ok, awesome explanation there Ampharos. But I missed one thing- when DO you regain air control? Does the midair jump help you regain air control? Does ANYTHING help you regain air control faster besides the initial aerial?
If not, the midair jump's only function would be to reach the stage more easily, and if that is true, with mindgames in mind you should probably keep your midair jump to use just before your up-B to mix things up and not become predictible, when falling back to the edge.

Also I was under the impression the midair jump changed your "state" of flight somehow, making it possible to regain air control/fastfall faster/enter some other state of stun/flight sooner? Is any of this correct?
 

teluoborg

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Look at Swordgard's wall of text about DI and survival (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969) at the part about momentum shifting. The first §.

It says that :
Momentum Shifting

First of all, one must notice that the whole momentum you gain can be separated into horizontal and vertical. Now we need to be able to reduce both of these, which implies fast falling and pressing towards the stage. Each character has 3 variables that will influence these 2 components. Weight of a character dampens(reduces) the initial vertical AND horizontal momentum but does not have any effect on the deceleration. Weight is however a very misleading term, and is now often referred to as launch resistance, because many people think that launch resistance only affects vertical knockback or is confused with falling speed. This is however the case for falling speed, which basically sets the deceleration speed of the vertical speed. If you can fastfall, then you automatically higher your falling speed which gets even higher gradually until it reaches a maximum, and this will therefore counteract the vertical momentum gave away by the move thus slowing you down and saving you. The second one is actually drift speed. Unlike for falling speed, everyone has the same basic resistance to horizontal knockback if you do not press toward any direction. However, everyone has a different drift speed. This can be easily seen when you compare Wario's aerial control with the one Ganondorf has. This drift speed cannot be used to reduce your horizontal momentum once you are in control of your character(which you are not until the 2nd part of hitstun). However, jumping seems to give you an horizontal boost if you press towards the stage, which in my opinion(this has yet to be proved) is because you can actually break this rule once you jumped, and counteract the effects of the knockback using your drift speed which is higher than the base horizontal resistance. The higher your drift speed, the faster you can counteract these effects.
To make it simple :
-Doing an aerial and fast falling it allows you to counter vertical momentum with your character's fall speed.
-Doing a jump after the aerial allows you to counter horizontal momentum with your character's drift speed.

Seriously read the entire post.
It's a pain in the *** but once you're done you'll know everything about DI.
 

Fenrir VII

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So, a point which was been confusing to me:

If you are sent primarily in a vertical direction, with no fear of a horizontal kill, AND you are playing a character who does not have a Dair like Sonic's, Dair is a good bet for momentum cancelling, since you are only concerned with fastfalling, you can fastfall as soon as any aerial starts, and Dair inputs an auto-fastfall.

If you are sent in a horizontal direction, it is more important to use your FASTEST aerial, so that you can jump, and thus reverse your momentum more quickly.


Is this correct?
 

teluoborg

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Yesz !

To be totally accurate I'll add that the Dair auto-fastfalls only if you use the C-stick (which must be set on "smash" because a Dair whit a C-stick set on "attack" won't make you fastfall).
 

rPSIvysaur

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I have a question for Amazing Ampharos, does the different physics of Yoshi's, Ness' and Lucas' Double Jump affect the momentum canceling ability (would it make it better or worse?)
 

Yumewomiteru

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AA, when you say pressing X or Y too early while meteor cancelling will result in them unable to be used for meteor cancel, what about pressing a jump set to another button? Also, tap jump is just an input of up and jump at the same time no? so cant you just hold jump and mash up on the control stick?
 

Poltergust

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Look at Swordgard's wall of text about DI and survival (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969) at the part about momentum shifting. The first §.

It says that :


To make it simple :
-Doing an aerial and fast falling it allows you to counter vertical momentum with your character's fall speed.
-Doing a jump after the aerial allows you to counter horizontal momentum with your character's drift speed.

Seriously read the entire post.
It's a pain in the *** but once you're done you'll know everything about DI.
So, without taking weight into account, Yoshi would be the best surviving horizontally (fastest air-speed), Link would be the best at surviving vertically (fastest fast-fall speed), King Dedede would be the worst surviving horizontally (slowest air-speed), and Jigglypuff would be the worst at surviving vertically (slowest fast-fall speed), right?

:069:
 
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