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*Pound* 4:: VGBootCamp Debut! Two days. Plank's sanity remaining: 50%

What type of stage set should Pound4 run


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Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
All sets will consist of two stages, how is that not annoying? lol
this coming from your awesome first hand experience at SPOC?

oh wait, you weren't there and are taking that solely off of Hax and Scar vs. JMan and Tag which failed to follow the rules twice.

honestly, if game 3 ends up on the same stage as game 1, someone's not stage striking properly.
 

Drephen

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neutrals plus DK64 = 7 stages?

**** that this game will be boring then

keep all the janky stages on, i want a fun tourney not a boring one :)

whatever the rule set may be its always been up to the tourney host to decide. Dont like the ruleset? Dont come. Dont care where you are coming from. If your truly good at this game it shouldnt matter where you play or what the rules are (within reason). Ruleset has worked fine for a long time, even if you dont agree with it somewhat if your good you will win.
 

pockyD

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also how is it "annoying"?

almost any smashfest you go to // friendlies you play will be on 6 stages only, often for hours at a time; how come if you turn it into tournament sets, play only 2-3 games an hour instead of 10, and even add an extra stage it suddenly becomes "annoying"?

sorry, but "annoying" is getting taken to poke floats or rainbow cruise every set as ice climbers
 

KageMurphy

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I'm with Drephen, all them standard stages are mad boring, don't fix it if it ain't broke. I'm taking all you crying suckas to Poke floats.
 

Strong Badam

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neutrals plus DK64 = 7 stages?

**** that this game will be boring then

keep all the janky stages on, i want a fun tourney not a boring one :)
the poll in the topic is about the first stage pick. of course cp's are still gonna be there.
 

Drephen

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also how is it "annoying"?

almost any smashfest you go to // friendlies you play will be on 6 stages only, often for hours at a time; how come if you turn it into tournament sets, play only 2-3 games an hour instead of 10, and even add an extra stage it suddenly becomes "annoying"?

sorry, but "annoying" is getting taken to poke floats or rainbow cruise every set as ice climbers
lol never said annoying said its boooooooooooring

come to midwest son. we play janky stages in friendlies.

thats why poke is a counterpick, ive seen it done with IC so it aint impossible. If you cant win then dont play IC on pokefloats learn a different character.

Or u could just use pichu the entire tourney and complain how every character is better than you and still do nothing about it
 

Strong Badam

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- Singles Stages on random – Final Destination, Dream Land 64, Fountain of Dreams, Battlefield, Yoshi’s Story And Pokemon Stadium, kongo jungle.
- Singles Stages Banned - Hyrule Temple, Yoshi 64, Fourside, Icicle Mountain, Flatzone, Venom, Brinstar Depths, Big Blue, Great Bay, onnett, Princess Peach's Castle, Great bay, Yoshi's island (pipes), Mushroom Kingdom 1/2, Jungle japes.

Stage striking will be used to determine the first match and we need an odd number of neutrals to do that. Hence why KJ is legal. All other levels open for counterpicks.
hmm ....
 

pockyD

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lol never said annoying said its boooooooooooring
I was replying to the other post and you just happened to jump in before mine

All sets will consist of two stages, how is that not annoying? lol
come to midwest son. we play janky stages in friendlies.

thats why poke is a counterpick, ive seen it done with IC so it aint impossible. If you cant win then dont play IC on pokefloats learn a different character.

Or u could just use pichu the entire tourney and complain how every character is better than you and still do nothing about it
Here's my thoughts on the matter

our "neutral" stage list is accepted as the set of the "most fair" stages. Since there's no perfectly fair stage, that's what we have, the group of stages seem that are closest to fair...

the list of "banned" stages are stages that are not fair enough to be competitive

my problem is with the CP stages being thought of as "fair enough" for competitive play, but not "as fair" as the first group of stages... why must we play on stages that we deem inherently less fair than the group of neutrals? What standard do we use to find the cutoff point between "fair enough to be neutral" and "not fair enough to be played sometimes but fair enough to be played at other times"?

Games 2 and 3 count just as much as Game 1 in the score; why are they held to a different standard than Game 1? A stage should either be allowed for all games, or for none of them; it's either 'fair enough' to be played, or it's not. This magical 3rd category of "fair enough to be played 67% of the time, but not fair enough to be allowed the other 33% of the time" is rather pointless

If poke floats, brinstar, whatever are fair enough to be played competitively, they should be lumped in with the set of starter stages. If they aren't, they shouldn't be played at all
 

pockyD

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it has nothing to do with stage knowledge

knowing that, for example, there's no edge on mute city doesn't suddenly make it easier to recover there; it's not like players are confused by repeatedly trying to sweetspot and falling to their deaths
 

Archangel

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I'm with Drephen, all them standard stages are mad boring, don't fix it if it ain't broke. I'm taking all you crying suckas to Poke floats.
Ummm...it is kinda broken at this point.

I mean being honest how many sets are won by stages not by the players sometimes. I mean...I kinda hate CP's even as a fox. When someone picks PokeFloats against me I go from happy to mad. It makes my whole day bad. Not to mention I've never understood the point of having them aside from screwing over some Mains and helping out others. I honestly would rather play on Hyrule Temple and Big Blue then play PokeFloats and Rainbow Cruise. I'm sorry for those of you who agree with not changing anything but I ask why be a Mindless zombie? Why follow behind something aimlessly? Why not be your own person and think for yourself? Instead of the..."It's always been this way" I mean...I'm sure that argument came up when the option of slavery came up. Thank god they didn't listen to that argument or i probably wouldn't be typing this...think about it.
 

ajp_anton

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it has nothing to do with stage knowledge

knowing that, for example, there's no edge on mute city doesn't suddenly make it easier to recover there; it's not like players are confused by repeatedly trying to sweetspot and falling to their deaths
I'd say stage knowledge is more like knowing what to do about the lack of edges than just knowing they aren't there. Doesn't help if there's nothing to be done though... =)
 

JFox

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I made a ruleset that is a really good compromise between the two. I've been tryin to get it to catch on. Check it

JFox said:
Neutrals- Battlefield, Dreamland, Yoshis, Pokemon Stadium, and Fountain of Dreams

Non-Neutrals- Final Destination, Kongo Jungle, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Corneria

Banned stages- Everything not listed.


First game- Players take turns striking stages from the neutral ruleset until one is left (Slot one picks first). The last one is the one played game 1.

Second game- Winner announces one ban from neutrals and one ban from non-neutrals. Loser than picks a stage. Winner chooses character, than loser chooses character.

Third game- Winner announces one ban from neutrals and one ban from non-neutrals. Loser than picks a stage. Winner chooses character, than loser chooses character.


Dave's stupid rule modified- Players cannot choose a stage that they have already won on in a set.
 

Plairnkk

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I am going to decide at a later time. A lot of talking and good points have been brought up in the back room and I already think I know what I'm going to do (limit some of the more extreme stages, but for all types of characters), but there's still a while before the tournament.
 

JCaesar

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oh yeah and I'm down for the ROB vs. Falco real life laser tag [during Brawl tourney, anyone? XDXDXD] if we can arrange it [doubtful]

but I still support the idea
Hmm I think it was pointless to post it in here. Maybe we should talk to the Falcos directly.
 

XIF

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I posted this in the backroom, I feel like It won't affect the outcome of the rules for this tournament, but maybe for the future.

Ok, so here it is, all the currently used Counter Pick stages i've seen in tournament over the past 2 years. These are my thoughts as to why each and every one does not deserve to be used in a competitive setting. To avoid redundancy, the examples and points I give do not further explain explicitly why it is inherently bad. I will shorten this explanation to two points:

Randomness is inherently bad within a competitive setting because it alters the outcome of a match in a way outside either player's control. With money and pride on the line, it should never get to the point where a player wins through no effort on his own, whether it be the stage outright killing someone/saving someone, or the stage setting up for an easy kill or combo/possible comeback where the player can bypass the effort of setting up for the situation.

and

Overwhelming character advantages on stages are inherently bad within a competitive setting because it overemphasizes the first game in order to get the leg up on counter picking (which in turn gives little opportunity for the loser to learn from his mistakes or to come back when he is the better player but made simple errors), and also because such advantages are not available to all characters to take advantage of.


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* Brinstar

The lava comes up and generally makes a big mess of everything. Lava combos, lava saves, the fact you can't kill them off the bottom a good majority of the time really limits many characters killing potential. People like Mario absolutely need edge guards in order to kill people anywhere below like 150. The lava just makes it so his already uphill matchups like marth and space animals are just that much harder because he can't kill. Any character that NEEDS edgeguarding to be effective (bar Peach and Jiggs, for other reasons) cannot feasibly win on this stage. Not to mention that because you can go through the stage, people have so many more ways to make it back, but this is not really the issue.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8EEcpbOkxU (Zhu-Fox vs DSF-Puff)

This is all I really need to show. It shows how you can be in the middle of beating someone, and then get hit by the lava once and lose a stock because it decided to come up during your combo. The worst part is that the other two matches (which were on decidedly more fair stages) Zhu absolutely steamrolls DSF. If this had been a set with all neutrals, this would have never gone to third match.

* Corneria

Character advantages notwithstanding, arwings and wolfens fly in at random times, shoot randomly, and either help otherwise tame combos or break combos because it hits the person that was attacking. This in and of itself is reason enough to ban the stage. We all know about Fox and Falco's overwhelming advantage on the stage as well. The fin creates basically a wall with which the two can just run and camp, and then get stupid low percent kills. The other thing about thi stage specific with peach is that it moves up and down. This means that if Peach floats above the ground, depending on where it's moving, she will either rise up and mess up her spacing or hit the ground prematurely. I can't even begin to describe how catastrophic this is for peach if she even wants to consider floating for more than half a second.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeRaDqKGkN0 (Mango-Falco vs SS-CF)

This epitomizes how random elements can turn the match on it's head. Mango lost his first stock entirely because of the arwing laser, and Silent Spectre was a fraction of a second away from ending his a-a-a combo but slippy came in and blasted his ***, which gave Mango the winning 0 to death combo. Silent Spectre didnt have a chance after that.

* Green Greens

This stage is absolutely ridiculous, and i'm glad that most people here agree it should be banned. The blocks, bombs, and apples bring about absolutely absurd randomness to the point that the game becomes a farce. With money on the line, this stage has no business in a tournament setting. Besides this, Fox is just an overwhelming force on this stage, with his ridiculous vertical killing power, and the blocks give him ample opportunity to camp (or infinite half the cast! woohoo!)

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcL8NIXERXI (Marty-Peach and XIF-Fox vs SleepyK-Ganon and Laijin-Peach)

I need to enumerate all the random factors in order for anyone to make sense of it all.
0:35- Fox upsmashes Peach as a block comes down, something that would've been another hit becomes a stupid early kill.
1:56- Fox tries to ledge hop nair, but the block comes at that point and kills the momentum, causing fox to nair off the stage at 0.
3:09- Fox up smashes ganondorf, and instead of dying, ganon hits the side of one block and hits the bottom of the other, saving him.

Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo-mD2Kf3hE (Yayuhz-Fox vs Twitch-Fox)

6:53- shine knock down, instead of being a 50-50 mixup for the fox, turns into a guaranteed kill because the apple falls.
7:11- green fox bairs off the stage, and blue fox drops down for the shine, misses, and instead of being able to simply double jump back up, hits a block instead, forcing him to up B, and ultimately dying.

* Jungle Japes


Besides laser camping and the ridiculous ledge game Fox and Falco have... Klap traps. This is reason enough to warrant a ban. The river is also terrible, because half the cast has no chance of making it back if they get tapped down there once on the left/middle or far left from momentum alone.

Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVC8fnZbYVk (Linguini-Ganon vs I'veJihadIt-CF)

First few seconds Ivejihadit jabbed once and the klaptrap absolutely murders linguini. Other river shenanigans continue throughout the video.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UounHRMvbfM (HugS-Samus vs Edrees-Peach)
The first two stocks are there courtesy of mr. klaptrap once again. The last stock he gets hit, manages to tech, but can't recover because the river pulls him.

* Mushroom Kingdom II

Walk off edges just promote silly strategies such as wave shining, back throw fishing, and the such. Jiggs, Ganon, Fox, and Falco are seriously overpowered on this stage, because their aerials (or shines of the side/top for fox/falco respectively) can kill at very very early percents. Birdo comes out at random times and shoots eggs randomly, hitting people out of combos, allowing people to get killed, or general gimping in general.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiLzET8pYRk (Marty-Peach and XIF-Peach vs Iori-Ganon and Chad-Puff

at 0:55, peach gets jabbed by Ganondorf, ends up behind birdo as it's going off, and as he tech rolls forward, birdo pulls him off and kills him.

* Mute City


Without ledges, this overcentralizes the game into who has better edge guard capabilities, or who has the crappiest up B. Some character are simply not an option because they NEED to be able to grab the ledge in order to compete, and this includes Doc, Mario, Ganon, and Captain Falcon. Otherwise perfectly viable characters simply do not have the tools to compete, no matter the amount of adaptation or stage practice. Jigglypuff being too good on this stage is just the start. The cars are really what kills it. Being on a set pattern is hardly reason enoug for it to be fair. As scar has pointed out in other instances, the stage hazard here favors those that can actually control the air very well. Characters can only stay in the air so long, and it's not nearly long enough to stall out the cars if there's no platforms nearby, or at all, for alot of characters. Not to mention damage dealt by the cars is usually not in thanks to the opponent. It's free damage that required no thought and only serves to help a certain player.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOOGfYEwK70 (Ken-Marth vs PC Chris-Falco)

The classic. PC Chris vs Ken at MLG match 5 (for all the marbles basically). People like to concentrate on the ending (i'll get to that) but I think 1:45 deserves special mention. Basically PC Chris gets needlessly juggled for 46% for simply trying to recover back to the stage, because he just happened to be knocked off as the cars are coming. Instead of an already stupid situation where no ledges make recovery that hard, Ken gets a free 46% because he managed to land a hit that knocked him off 1 minute and 40 seconds into the match. Had this happened at 1 minute and 50 seconds instead, PC Chris would have come out relatively unscathed. You shouldn't get double rewarded for doing something at one time, as opposed to another because of the stage. And then immediately afterwards during Ken's combo on PC Chris, Ken lands an uptilt, and before he can do anything a car hits him, allowing PC Chris to come back down and punish him. (Wobbles: there's a clip for Combo Breaker!) And then there's the ending. We all know it so it hardly needs explaining. PC Chris manages to hit Ken with an uptilt, and what could have been a game ending combo turns into PC getting juggled for 50% (To be fair, Ken got hit for 20% as well, but it doesn't make it any less ********). The best part is that because Ken got hit (read: made a mistake) he avoided the first part of the cars that may have damaged him as well.

* Poké Floats

The amount of falling through pokemon glitches alone should be reason enough to warrant a ban. I know and have seen it happen on Seel and Snorlax, and I've heard about it on Venusaur and other as well. The main problem with the stage is that you have to move around and jump so much, characters with strong aerial games are heavily favored. As a good friend of mine who plays Roy put it, "You can learn the pattern and contemplate strategies all you want, but you can't make Roy's aerials any better." Some character excel in their ground game, and other in the air, and you've basically taken the ground out of the equation, and made it a nightmare for characters like Mario, Roy, etc to even land hits, let alone kill anyone. Aside from that, the low ceiling makes it so that Fox and Falco also have an overwhelming advantage on the stage. Other than that, opportune pokemon make appearances to cause stupid kills.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhg7-7Ou8JM (Azen-Luigi vs Mathos-Falco)

at 1:45, Mathos starts by showing off how overpowered Falco can be on this stage with a fairly early percent kill by shining off the top. As Luigi turns into a star, Sudowoodo comes in and lifts Azen off as he respawns, killing him again. Great right?

Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI1HF6tfbPM (Rice-Falco vs SmashMac-Doc)

Rice is able to shine smashmac's Doc off the top twice in the first 20 seconds, doing a combined total of 84% between the two stocks. This wouldn't be such a problem if Shine didn't come out in one frame. If this strategy had to be done with Bowser's up air, then it'd be a reasonable work around. Asking someone to avoid a one frame move is hardly a viable strategy.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJrZUulDCY0 (XIF-Peach vs Viperboy-Falco)

Even if it's in my favor, this is really dumb. 1:18 I forward air Viperboy into weezing, and he manages to tech it. But then his up B gets ganked by slowbro, netting me an undeserved kill. At 2:05, I down smash Viperboy, and instead of being able to attempt a recovery, Venusaur comes in at that precise moment off screen and spikes Viperboy. He couldn't even see what killed him, let alone tech off of it.

* Rainbow Cruise

Once again, the movement in this stage give characters with strong aerial game overwhelming advantages. And also once again the ceiling is so low that Fox and Falco have easy low percent kills that make it a nightmare to actually play against. Characters that absolutely cannot function on this stage range from Mario, doc, ICE CLIMBERS, Roy, Donkey Kong, etc. Once again, these are otherwise tournament viable characters that are effectively shut down for at least one round, netting the opponent free wins.

Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFY7dm6Ekf8 (Darkrain-CF vs Trail-Marth)

Here's a prime example as to how strong CP's can be for certain characters. Trail manages to beat Darkrain match 1 of the set using IC's. Darkrain displays his understanding of how powerful CP's can be by taking Trail to Rainbow Cruise. This is a notoriously bad stage for IC's, and Trail even comes out with his known secondary, Marth, which is basically the only suggestion thus far for combatting against CP stages. Darkrain proceeds to absolutely demolish Trail, continuing the set to game three, where darkrain barely wins. Now what stage exactly does Trail have to pick against Darkrain that gives him that same advantage? Mute? Lol getting knee'd once means Darkrain gets a free edge guard kill with IC's sorry recovery, to which admittedly IC's can do back, but the moving stage removes their CG, so at best it's even and at worst it's still in CF's favor. Corneria? Say hello to 70% knee kills. So here is an instance where characters and stage advantage/disadvantage played a large enough role that the player had no real answer for it. The stages introduced advantages to one character that the other character had no access to.

* Kongo Jungle 64

I'll keep this short and simple. Barrel allows for people to live from otherwise fatal hits. Barrel hogging isn't always an option due to character and position before the hit. There's also the power of certain characters on this stage make it nearly impossible to win for alot of people.

Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k (Pink Shinobi-Peach vs Rockcrock-Ganon)

This is just sad. Peach doesn't need this vs Ganondorf at all.

I also want to discuss the legality of Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi Story, and Pokemon Stadium, but those aren't nearly as bad as the others, and to be honest, if I can at least get the above listed stages banned, i'll be happy enough. I doubt I'll get enough support to ban the other three, and I'm willing compromise on that at least.
 

SleepyK

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i love pokefloats
it has psyduck
please keep it legal
but only when psyduck is on screen
 

pockyD

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I made a ruleset that is a really good compromise between the two. I've been tryin to get it to catch on. Check it
we've been over this but this doesn't compromise between anything

if we feel that 'non-neutrals' are inherently less fair than 'neutrals', the 'neutral' ban is meaningless, because they will simply go to one of the stacked 'non-neutral' stages to begin with

also, this doesn't address characters whose stacked stages are traditionally considered neutral for whatever reason (yoshi's story/dreamland come to mind)

if a character's two best CPs are both in the same category, then the allowed ban in the other category is completely meaningless

if this is hard to comprehend, consider it from the POV of an ICs or Marth player (whose best stages are all neutrals and are terrible on almost all CP stages)

and you have never explained why your system is better than simply giving each player 2 stage bans of their choice, which is just a really good rule overall imo (I used it at the last tournament I ran and it was very well received)
 

Plairnkk

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*Pound* 4 Official Melee Stage List​


Neutrals 1v1:

FD
Yoshis
Dreamland
Battlefield
Fountain of Dreams


Neutrals 2v2:

FD
Yoshis
Dreamland
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium


Counterpicks 1v1:

Kongo Jungle
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Pokemon Stadium


Counterpicks 2v2:

Kongo Jungle
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise




Basis of Decision:


The Melee back room did a stage vote on both neutrals and Counterpicks. Both of the rulesets I, as the main TO, voted for are the ones that have the most support. I feel like this is a compromise between everyone, and I'm sorry to those who aren't happy because I can't please everyone. I want the results of this tournament to be as accurate as possible, so these are the legal stages.

  • Pokemon Stadium: This stage is no longer a neutral for singles. The transformations in and of themselves would often result in entirely banned stages due to walls and such. Because the stage changes however, the stage is not banned, but I do not feel is neutral. However, in teams if a player is stuck in an infinite his teammate has the opportunity to help, which is why it is indeed neutral in teams (and to make a 5th stage since fountain isn't and this is the next best stage). The camera angles on the ledges are funky, and it's widely known space animals run wild on the stage.

Stage Striking will be in effect for the first match of the set. The player with the lower port will get to choose the first strike. Loser choses ban before next match.


One ban per player per set. To be chosen after loss.

Modified DSR: You cannot go back to the last stage you won in a set, unless agreed upon by the other player.


The player choice clause!:: If both players agree to a rule outside of my ruleset, feel free to play by that. If one player wants to counterpick Mute City and the other player is fine with that because they think it's a fair stage, then that is more than fine. However in the event the two players disagree, house rules stand.

Any questions please contact me via PM or AIM, but as of now the stage discussion here is OVER, and so please do not spam the thread with that. I'm trying to compromise best for everyone.
 

pockyD

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  • Pokemon Stadium: This stage is no longer a neutral for singles. The transformations in and of themselves would often result in entirely banned stages due to walls and such. Because the stage changes however, the stage is not banned, but I do not feel is neutral. However, in teams if a player is stuck in an infinite his teammate has the opportunity to help, which is why it is indeed neutral in teams (and to make a 5th stage since fountain isn't and this is the next best stage). The camera angles on the ledges are funky, and it's widely known space animals run wild on the stage.
10000x agreed
 

mathos

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I was thinking about making some long epic counter post to all this ridiculous conversation on stage picks. But. . . . . .

No stage johns. If you don't like a stage learn to play a toon thats good on that stage. If you don't like other characters you probably aren't going to be winning the tournament anyway.

Don't know why you're debating a stage selection topic from a game thats almost 8 years old.

See you fellas at the tourny!
 

XIF

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I don't like the idea of Fox and Falco players telling me that I need to change characters to be good...

Not to say that isn't true, character diversity is certainly something that can separate good and great players, but Spacies telling me this is little disingenuous.

I mean, it must be nice sitting at the top.
 

Plairnkk

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Shhh Xif, please. Take it somewhere else. I don't want arguing here right now, just tourney talk and hype. We all know the argument on both sides and that it's annoying when someone won't see your side at all. I've just looked at both and I know where everyone is coming from and compromising. From one hard headed person to another i beg you, bite your tongue :p
 

JFox

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yes! wooooohoooo. this system is pretty much the same as what i proposed, with minor modifications.

only thing i would suggest considering is giving stage bans, and possibly a DSR rule of some sort. otherwise, goood ****
 

Banks

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XIF, can i just ask..if you had it your way would tournaments be played only on FD/battlefield/dreamland and nothing else? >__________>

also, what about the wind on dreamland? lmao
 
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