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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
otg
Smash Master
Jona you're mad lame. Also, once I get my new computer I'm down to play anyone in PUzzle Fighter online.
um, I rarely play BB, but can break grabs almost every time, even if not looking for them. Then again, I was always the bomb at stupid reaction based things. I use Bang, just because he looked cool, and now I just really like him, and his walkthrough super XD.
TresChikon
Smash Lord
Ugh, I feel like a noob, so how do you DI Doc's fair?
This
This
or this?
It depends on where exactly you are, and what percent you're at. The normal trajectory is towards the corner of the upper/side killzones, meaning most of the time you don't want to DI at all, as that will send you higher or further, both of which kill you faster. However, sometimes, due to when/where you were hit, you need to DI down and away to keep from dying off the top.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It's situational: depends minimally on where you are on the stage and what percent, and possibly other factors
TresChikon
Smash Lord
Wow that's actually really interesting, I never really thought about like that. Most moves just send you in the general vertical or horizontal direction, but Doc is already sending you in the optimal direction, so that makes sense.
Thanks guys.
Thanks guys.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yeah Doc's Fair is really silly.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
LOL, don't deny the Dogy!
Doc's Fair *****!
Anyways, have any of you Doc players ever caped a stitchface and the cape hit Peach simultaneously. I just did that twice, and Peach takes all this damage and the hitstun just makes her shake in place (like some kinda of seizure) without actually getting knocked back anywhere. I'm pretty sure the Peach was at 90% before this happened, then at 139% afterwards. But it sucked that the turnip didn't even knocked her back.
The same kinda hitstun happens in Doc dittos whenever the Docs cape a pill back and forth before taking the hit from the caped pill. I think the pill dealt 50 or 60% because it had been caped back and forth 4 or 5 times before hitting my opponent. It was hilarious the first time I ever seen that.
Exaaaaactly. But when you try to tell most people in the smash community that the best way to live through something is to -gasp- not di, imagine what they respond with.
Even after you show them the natural traj. of the move is like, 60 degrees. (Read, the **** is already sending you up)
Yeah, it's one reason why I look for stitches vs peach. (I mean beyond the blatantly obvious you don't want to get hit by it.)
If you ever manage to hit a peach off the stage with that (stitch + cape), it puts them in a hitstun that they cant get out of. I've seen/done it quite a few times in tourney.
Zero_Gamer
Smash Master
Well, ****, not only do I suck at 2D fighters, but I also suck at Smash and every other thing I attempt AND I'm a weeaboo.
Ahh, okay. I thought otg might've been short for Overthegun, some guy who does entertaining playthroughs of some games.
Carl can also start up his infinite - regardless of Nirvana's location - with 2A, 2B, 3C+22D, IAD j.2C Alle~can, 2C --> death, unless you're talking about legit block pressure.
And roll is terrible. I treat it the same way as Abel's Versailles Roll in SF IV, except it's even easier to punish.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
The only time you DI Doc's Fair down + away or anything of its ilk is when he's sending you all the way across the stage and you're sure to die off the top if you don't DI.
Depending on character you might survive the journey across the stage.
Depending on character you might survive the journey across the stage.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Notice how you said almost? That's what I'm saying. Everyone messes up. Also, counter grabs are great.
I can't play puzzle fighter very well. Can't tell the exact green and yellow they use apart. =(
BUT GEM FIGHTER, OH MAH GAWD!
It's a generalization. Dun get butthurt. That's like "female gamers" getting sad when I say they generally aren't good.
AND FOR THE RECORD, MILKTEA SUCKED AT MELEE! TERRIBLY!
The roll isn't terrible. It's only terrible if you're ******** with it. With the roll, you can:
1) Go through Nu's swords
2) Go through a good chunk of projectiles
3) Go through supers
And if you imbue it with grab invincibility after the regular invul is gone (1abc), you can't get grabbed out of it, so it gets you past a lot of pressure/traps.
It's only "easy" to punish if you use it predictably/poorly. It's pretty much a SRK that doesn't hit. Jin IADing in on you? Roll past it.
Carl can do the infinite off anything. I mean pretty much anything. CH 6a? Gear super, rc, roll, summon, roll, 8d>win. I was talking about blockstrings.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Lol. Mango on the livestream. "Leave Milktea out of this!"
****ING BRING IT.
YOU BRING IT TOO. LEMME DUST OFF MY FRICKIN SAKURA AND TESSA AND IT'S ON. Or I can go learn a shoto and chaingrab like a *****. But that's not fun.
___
And female
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Excellent. Exxxxcellent.
YOU THINK YOU'RE TOUGH? YOU THINK YOU'RE TIGHT?!?
You can try CGing, but it doesn't work. You can air tech or grab break that shiz.
But yeah, game is madd fun. Can't wait to play people that aren't ********. Chun/Sakura/Tessa/Ibuki/Pretty much anyone = awesome.
I've decided that we should be xmas colours from now on.
Some girl made it to finals in SC4 here in CO. Then she got stomped because Greg isn't gonna let a girl win. Good man.
MaDWaK
Smash Journeyman
oh **** BB? pretty much a good Carl player can be determined from how fast he can set up the infinite. and pretty much all of his MUs are 5/5 because of it. I use to play against a really good carl player (meta) and he can get that **** claptrap off of anything.
thank god there toning it down (making it so you can tech faster from that grab or making it so he cant stay in the air off of a grab) in the next version. there giving nirvana a projectile tho, which will be interesting.
thank god there toning it down (making it so you can tech faster from that grab or making it so he cant stay in the air off of a grab) in the next version. there giving nirvana a projectile tho, which will be interesting.
oh you should get started.
ranmaru
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 13,296
- Switch FC
- SW-0654 7794 0698
I see that your post seems very interesting, but tlr;dr'd it and sure, I'll get BB. Oh, and I also am not that good at traditional fighters. I know your supposed to light punch first I guess (or maybe thats just for MvC2) but I want to get good at it too, since I own SF 2 for supernintendo, and I loved it, I just never did well. xD
Oh oh I wanna get soul calibur 4 as well. I'm still hyped for the xbox 360 whooo. : D
Err, I like seen like two female gamers. Others as well, but the few others I know are just casual gamers lol, but yeah.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Carl's either gonna be fun as hell, or the worst character, hands down. We'll see. If he's bad, I'll either drop BB completely and play just SSBM/...I dunno... VS? or pick up Hazama/Tsubaki. We'll see, though. Right now, I'm messing around with Garou and Breaker's Revenge.
If you liked SF2, look into SF: HDR. It's like $10, and really really fun. If you want to get good at 2d fighters and you happen to get BB/HDR, hit me up. I'm really rusty in HDR, but I can teach you enough to help you beat scrubs. BB, I can teach you how to raaaaaaaaaaaape.
Just don't pick Arakune. He's terrible for someone just learning fighters.
ranmaru
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 13,296
- Switch FC
- SW-0654 7794 0698
Alright, thanks, I will. Sadly I have been blessed with this xbox 360, but then I have to move out of the apartment we have within this week. I'll hit you up once I have job + internet + xbox live + bb + hdr + apartment. Once I have all those things I'll be hyped and feeling good that I have the time to play the 360 again. : D
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
That sounds good to me.
Also, just watched HMW's first video blog. I swear to god, he's the clone of the guy I played in pools @ OC3.
Also, just watched HMW's first video blog. I swear to god, he's the clone of the guy I played in pools @ OC3.
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
...what IS this? We need like a separate thread for non-Melee topics.
Zero_Gamer
Smash Master
I dunno, I think that Roll should only be used to dodge air attacks/supers, to setup infinites off of combos, or to approach those with really good projectiles (and you don't want to block) with Nirvana doing something to keep you safe from normals, since most projectile's have too little cooldown to punish after Vivace.
If the opponent's on the ground and he's pressuring you, then a roll is you just begging to lose a chunk of your health since, like Smash, it has vulnerability on startup and cooldown and counterhits are way good in this game.
I assume you main Carl? If you have XBL we should play sometime. I main Rachel, but I'll probably use Ragna/Carl/Tager/Taokaka more often than her.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
Yo, I **** at puzzle fighter! I wish I had the equipment to record and post videos on Youtube of my puzzle fighter gameplay. I think I can do wayyy better than some of those video on there.
I'm probably better at puzzle fighter than I am at tetris. (Because you don't have to T-spin to be good at Puzzle Fighter
)
I keep saying I'm gunna sit down and learn Puzzle Fighter matchups, aside from the obvious "You realistically cant counter ken." XD I've always known that it exists, but never really read up on HOW to counter characters.
___
Ok, so marsfool asked me about doc/fox on facebook, and I typed him a quick blur about it.
People always complain that I dont say ****, so here, it's a quick blurb.
Aight.
With Doc (and mario), you can keep some pressure on him and if you think he's going to try to roll out give him the flash kick. Understand that although him wavedashing away from you (like, OoS) is a viable option, when he gets out, either he has to turn around and come back in on your d, or you have to go in and get hit. That being said, if he opts to wavedash away from your pressure, dont be so hasty to chase him. Figure out how he's going to function right there and break that down as needed. Of course, if you can CALL the wavedash, you know you can punish that.
90% of all Doc players are dumb and love to FH pill because they can waveland afterwards and you know how melee players are with wavelanding. If you find a doc player who likes to FH pill alot, hang outside of range, run in and upsmash. A good doc is going to throw a mix of FH and ground pills, mostly ground because it's more effort for you (as fox) to come over compared to running under. Dumb docs FH and SH pill all day. I THINK you can also run under SH pill with fox, im not exactly sure (Like, I know marth and sheik can for example, I dont know if fox's run is low enough or if you have to like, wavedash under SH pills or whatever).
Doc jabs? He can do jab jab as opposed to just jab mixups. Most docs dont. More often than not, if he can jab you, you can FH D.air in response to what he's going to do, unless he does jab -> move the **** out of your way.
You dont really want doc above you because although your u.air and upsmash kills, they're not exactly high priority moves, especially compared to his d.air. Watch for gimmicks like FH D.air -> U.air/N.air/B.air. Doc can do that in one jump, and alot of people just dont know it. His forward air has alot more startup than people think, so if you think he's going to f.air and you're free, get on your n.air plane.
If and when he lands a grab on you, you're really at his mercy, assuming the doc player is onpoint with his CG game (which ironically he probably WONT be, since people swear up and down i have the best CG game *rolls eyes*). Technically speaking, he can CG you from 0-death with a combination of u.throws and d.throws. U.throw works guaranteed from 0 to about 55ish. From there, he can keep CGing you with up throws IF YOU DI. But the problem becomes if you dont DI he can juggle you with u.tilt into regrab (or just keep u.tilting you, etc etc). If you think the doc is dumb enough to try to regrab you after 55% from no DI, shine. You'll die from a dunk 'round 90%+, depending on the stage. First and foremost, the best way to DI a f.air is actually to NOT di it. (It sends you at 60 degrees, so DIing in actually HELPS doc. 90% of the smash community refuses to believe the logic). The only time you want to DI fair is if you can DI it down and just go clear across a stage (like, if you're getting f.aired ACROSS FD as opposed to just off the edge). If he's going to dunk you, the hardest spot for him to get to is slightly behind him, so that's where you want to DI. If you're playing somebody w/o a clue, feel free to try DIing off the stage and whatnot, that might scare some people into not dunking you. Other than that, you just want to try to look for platforms as outs. Doc can really do too much guaranteed if you make it onto a platform.
If you ever grab Doc, there is absolutely no percent ever that you can u.throw -> u.air him. Fox's u.throw is affected by weight, and Doc is too heavy. BUT STILL TRY IT FROM TIME TO TIME ANYWAY. Some doc players are straight up dumb and fall into it. There is a percent where it's hard as hell to avoid the u.air (i wanna say it's around 50% or around 70%. I always forget till I play a fox who tries) So yeah, dont be afraid to try it. The worst thing that can happen is you get n.aired, but remember that Doc's nair goes from weak to strong, so you'll get the light hit of the nair. Instead of u.throw -> u.air, you can do stuff like wait for a double jump, then u.air, you can try u.throw b.air (go to his front side as f.air takes longer to come out than b.air), or you can try some dirty tricks like jump -> shine stall to scare him into jumping -> dj (whatever). At the least, you want Doc to jump.
You always want to get doc to double jump. He's got arguably the 2nd worst recovery in the game. Leaps and bounds below falco, but leaps and boundsaboutabove roy. So if you can make him respect your b.air and u.air (more specifically you're b.air), and you scare him into DJing alot, you're gunna gimp his *** from like, the middle of FD.
If you get him off the stage, just grab the ledge. Doc is dirt easy to edgeguard. Get him below the stage and grab the ledge, he has 2 options. Up+b or die. keep your invinc and make him up+b, when he does, just let him up+b onto the stage. He has horrible recovery lag, so you just hop up, b.air his *** off, and go right back to work. If you're patient enough, you can 0-death a Doc (and a mario to some degree) by just doing that). If you want to be kinda greedy, as doc goes to up+b, you can do a ledgedrop b.air. You hit him, he's dead. Period.
____
Any other questions?
____
Expect more of these in the near future, because I'm about to have a crapload of nothing to do in my town. :|
___
Ok, so marsfool asked me about doc/fox on facebook, and I typed him a quick blur about it.
People always complain that I dont say ****, so here, it's a quick blurb.
Aight.
With Doc (and mario), you can keep some pressure on him and if you think he's going to try to roll out give him the flash kick. Understand that although him wavedashing away from you (like, OoS) is a viable option, when he gets out, either he has to turn around and come back in on your d, or you have to go in and get hit. That being said, if he opts to wavedash away from your pressure, dont be so hasty to chase him. Figure out how he's going to function right there and break that down as needed. Of course, if you can CALL the wavedash, you know you can punish that.
90% of all Doc players are dumb and love to FH pill because they can waveland afterwards and you know how melee players are with wavelanding. If you find a doc player who likes to FH pill alot, hang outside of range, run in and upsmash. A good doc is going to throw a mix of FH and ground pills, mostly ground because it's more effort for you (as fox) to come over compared to running under. Dumb docs FH and SH pill all day. I THINK you can also run under SH pill with fox, im not exactly sure (Like, I know marth and sheik can for example, I dont know if fox's run is low enough or if you have to like, wavedash under SH pills or whatever).
Doc jabs? He can do jab jab as opposed to just jab mixups. Most docs dont. More often than not, if he can jab you, you can FH D.air in response to what he's going to do, unless he does jab -> move the **** out of your way.
You dont really want doc above you because although your u.air and upsmash kills, they're not exactly high priority moves, especially compared to his d.air. Watch for gimmicks like FH D.air -> U.air/N.air/B.air. Doc can do that in one jump, and alot of people just dont know it. His forward air has alot more startup than people think, so if you think he's going to f.air and you're free, get on your n.air plane.
If and when he lands a grab on you, you're really at his mercy, assuming the doc player is onpoint with his CG game (which ironically he probably WONT be, since people swear up and down i have the best CG game *rolls eyes*). Technically speaking, he can CG you from 0-death with a combination of u.throws and d.throws. U.throw works guaranteed from 0 to about 55ish. From there, he can keep CGing you with up throws IF YOU DI. But the problem becomes if you dont DI he can juggle you with u.tilt into regrab (or just keep u.tilting you, etc etc). If you think the doc is dumb enough to try to regrab you after 55% from no DI, shine. You'll die from a dunk 'round 90%+, depending on the stage. First and foremost, the best way to DI a f.air is actually to NOT di it. (It sends you at 60 degrees, so DIing in actually HELPS doc. 90% of the smash community refuses to believe the logic). The only time you want to DI fair is if you can DI it down and just go clear across a stage (like, if you're getting f.aired ACROSS FD as opposed to just off the edge). If he's going to dunk you, the hardest spot for him to get to is slightly behind him, so that's where you want to DI. If you're playing somebody w/o a clue, feel free to try DIing off the stage and whatnot, that might scare some people into not dunking you. Other than that, you just want to try to look for platforms as outs. Doc can really do too much guaranteed if you make it onto a platform.
If you ever grab Doc, there is absolutely no percent ever that you can u.throw -> u.air him. Fox's u.throw is affected by weight, and Doc is too heavy. BUT STILL TRY IT FROM TIME TO TIME ANYWAY. Some doc players are straight up dumb and fall into it. There is a percent where it's hard as hell to avoid the u.air (i wanna say it's around 50% or around 70%. I always forget till I play a fox who tries) So yeah, dont be afraid to try it. The worst thing that can happen is you get n.aired, but remember that Doc's nair goes from weak to strong, so you'll get the light hit of the nair. Instead of u.throw -> u.air, you can do stuff like wait for a double jump, then u.air, you can try u.throw b.air (go to his front side as f.air takes longer to come out than b.air), or you can try some dirty tricks like jump -> shine stall to scare him into jumping -> dj (whatever). At the least, you want Doc to jump.
You always want to get doc to double jump. He's got arguably the 2nd worst recovery in the game. Leaps and bounds below falco, but leaps and bounds
If you get him off the stage, just grab the ledge. Doc is dirt easy to edgeguard. Get him below the stage and grab the ledge, he has 2 options. Up+b or die. keep your invinc and make him up+b, when he does, just let him up+b onto the stage. He has horrible recovery lag, so you just hop up, b.air his *** off, and go right back to work. If you're patient enough, you can 0-death a Doc (and a mario to some degree) by just doing that). If you want to be kinda greedy, as doc goes to up+b, you can do a ledgedrop b.air. You hit him, he's dead. Period.
____
Any other questions?
____
Expect more of these in the near future, because I'm about to have a crapload of nothing to do in my town. :|
TresChikon
Smash Lord
I think it's classy.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
It's invulnerable on startup. Both of them are. a version is invul from 1-8 frames, and is about 28 frames total. 15 frames of complete grab invul? Yes prs.
Vivb is top invul for 24 frames, with like... 30 or 34 frames total. Very good for get-out-of-bad-situations-quick stuff. You can't spam it, but smart use of rolls is one of many things that separates good and bad Carls.
Yeah, I do. I'm IzzyInfamous. My stick has been a little wonky, but I'll play the 7-3 all day long.
i need to stop being a ***** and start practicing with my stick.
I have a ****ing HRAP2 and dont play on it. Ever. I mean, I'd rather play with a 360 pad than play with my stick.
Because I dont have to think to do a SRK or supers.
It's pretty sad.
I have a ****ing HRAP2 and dont play on it. Ever. I mean, I'd rather play with a 360 pad than play with my stick.
Because I dont have to think to do a SRK or supers.
It's pretty sad.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
That is pretty sad. Learn to use the stick, mangz. SRKs/supers get MADD easy once you've become used to the controller. Especially if you're using a xboxpad, wtf?
you gotta understand that, whether casual or competitive, I've been playing on pad all my **** life.
I know stick is better for me. When I **** around with it I pretty much understand the results that will come from it. I see the value it has (i.e. the ease of doing option selects in SF4, or being able to not do **** like 5A2A in MBAA, which is huge if you plan on reverse beating), but i always get to the hump of "Oh this f***er is talking trash, I want to roast his *** now and be done with it."
So I stick with what I know.
I mean, I play pad to the point of where I cant play a 6 button game w/o mapping HP to L1 and HK to R1 - a la SNES format.
It also doesnt help that, not only am I fairly proficient on pad, I keep hearing of all these "pad warriors" now a day. I mean, I live in a state where most of our top players play on pad for everything. You would think that's not a huge deal, but there's this place in my state called ATLANTA. One of the top Tekken crews in the nation, same for Soul Calibur. RTD made like, top 16 at EVO this year playing pad Hilde in SC4. (Yeah, SC4 doesnt earn too much credibility since you can actually button shoulder in tourney, lol).
But you get my point. It's kinda hard for me to turn away from it when I know there are successful people, I'm overall a successful person, and I know I actually have to do MORE work to get my stick to where it's usable. (I can REALLY only play ps2 games with it, as using my converter for some ungodly reason makes my stick wonky. Works perfectly fine converting a pad though.)
I know stick is better for me. When I **** around with it I pretty much understand the results that will come from it. I see the value it has (i.e. the ease of doing option selects in SF4, or being able to not do **** like 5A2A in MBAA, which is huge if you plan on reverse beating), but i always get to the hump of "Oh this f***er is talking trash, I want to roast his *** now and be done with it."
So I stick with what I know.
I mean, I play pad to the point of where I cant play a 6 button game w/o mapping HP to L1 and HK to R1 - a la SNES format.
It also doesnt help that, not only am I fairly proficient on pad, I keep hearing of all these "pad warriors" now a day. I mean, I live in a state where most of our top players play on pad for everything. You would think that's not a huge deal, but there's this place in my state called ATLANTA. One of the top Tekken crews in the nation, same for Soul Calibur. RTD made like, top 16 at EVO this year playing pad Hilde in SC4. (Yeah, SC4 doesnt earn too much credibility since you can actually button shoulder in tourney, lol).
But you get my point. It's kinda hard for me to turn away from it when I know there are successful people, I'm overall a successful person, and I know I actually have to do MORE work to get my stick to where it's usable. (I can REALLY only play ps2 games with it, as using my converter for some ungodly reason makes my stick wonky. Works perfectly fine converting a pad though.)
eighteenspikes
Smash Master
wait wtf? if docs fair sends you up and away why would you not want to DI down and towards?
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
They're all assuming it sends you to the corner already.
because downforward is in the parallel line.
You're either going to DI in, which sends you up, or out, which flatlines your ***.
edit
I always thought of something dumb - if i tried to use my twitter for tourney updates, would anybody care?
I mean, I havent been going to alot of tourneys lately, but would anybody care?
You're either going to DI in, which sends you up, or out, which flatlines your ***.
edit
I always thought of something dumb - if i tried to use my twitter for tourney updates, would anybody care?
I mean, I havent been going to alot of tourneys lately, but would anybody care?
otg
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
that's what she said
I still can't believe Doc players don't know how to (not) DI Doc's fair. For shame.
Im not. When you tell somebody to not di something they go ape ****.
___
Seeing as my edited post got ignored, that saves me some trouble.
But yeah, im going to a tourney in town this weekend (melee is 2morrow).
I dont know if I have enough money to enter singles (i probably dont), but I'm gunna try my best to camp out on livestream tv for lols. And ima make them let me do self commentary a few times.
record this time foo