WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
I had a tough time deciding, but the facts are really going against him.
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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10
- Thread starter WhatIsRaizen?
- Start date
PowerBomb
Smash Master
What facts? Mewtwo can't seriously hurt him.
justaway12
Smash Master
R.O.B.O.T obviously :O
Ike will be baffaled (sp?) my this new found technology and most likely run away.
But seriously, Ike, since R.O.B's game is Mario kart, then he will most likely just drive, he could enter with a star or blue shell, but Ike can attack from far away with his supersonic shockwave thingy if R.O.B has a blue shell annd just keep his distance if ROB has a star.
@Bowser: Did you really make him lose, Mewtwo can't do anything that he can't counter, he shouldn't even have TMs >_>
Ike will be baffaled (sp?) my this new found technology and most likely run away.
But seriously, Ike, since R.O.B's game is Mario kart, then he will most likely just drive, he could enter with a star or blue shell, but Ike can attack from far away with his supersonic shockwave thingy if R.O.B has a blue shell annd just keep his distance if ROB has a star.
@Bowser: Did you really make him lose, Mewtwo can't do anything that he can't counter, he shouldn't even have TMs >_>
PowerBomb
Smash Master
Mario Kart is not canon
And Mewtwo loses to Boozer
And Mewtwo loses to Boozer
justaway12
Smash Master
BUt that was R.O.Bs only apperance, it is his only playable game, I think we should make an exception.
I agree with Mewtwo losing.
I agree with Mewtwo losing.
REL38
Smash Lord
Mewtwo is a wild Pokemon because:
1. He appeared as such in Melee
2. He has no trainer in Melee.
Mewtwo is not shown with a trainer in Smash. He's wild.
Next, the credibility of Mystery Dungeon is very questionable.
Since when do Pokemon show the ability to create their own secret society, complete with an economical, government and housing system in place, in Pokemon Platinum or Yellow?
It even takes place in the same region as the main series.
Pokemon are given different moves throughout the series.
They do so to make certain Pokemon a little better or change up the moveset with new moves.
The fact that Mewtwo has Thunder and Blizzard is to make him a more difficult boss.
It wouldn't be very fun if all he knew were mediocre moves with only 1 good move.
Bowser not using teleportation in SM64 very often is purely poor AI.
Bowser could have been given the AI to teleport everytime Mario approached, but that would be too hard for the target audience.
Bowser could easily teleport and use fireballs upon reappearing with ease. He has both abilities. Combining them is what makes it useful. Just because he was never shown possesing the Star Rod alongside the Mushroom doesn't mean he can't dual weild them.
Unless Aura Sphere is a targeting attack that pursues the opponent, then it won't be hitting something that's not even there anymore.
Pokemon only carry berries in the wild. Only caught Pokemon can hold items, but still require trainers to activate them with the exception of berries.
Accuracy would worsen if the opponent is actively disappearing and shooting fireballs upon reappearing.
In Pokemon, it has good acuraccy due to the fact that it's an RPG where opponents don't actively dodge.
Bowser is.
Accuracy would worsen.
Bowser would not be hit. At worst, he'll receive a Future Sight, but he can tank that attack.
This brings about the same strategy he won with.
He uses a distraction item to make Mewtwo use Embargo while Bowser planks with teleportation/fireballs, Embargo runs out and Bowser repeats until all of Mewtwo's PP is gone.
Then he pulls out the Star Rod to seal the deal.
@Sasha
The shadow is for the player so they know where Bowser went.
Remember, Mario games have always been targeting kids to buy their games. Making them too difficult makes kids cry and rage-quit. That makes angry parents which hurts sales.
EDIT:
WTF Raizen?
Changing the results without explaining why?
C'mon. You can run this thread better than this.
1. He appeared as such in Melee
2. He has no trainer in Melee.
Mewtwo is not shown with a trainer in Smash. He's wild.
Next, the credibility of Mystery Dungeon is very questionable.
Since when do Pokemon show the ability to create their own secret society, complete with an economical, government and housing system in place, in Pokemon Platinum or Yellow?
It even takes place in the same region as the main series.
Pokemon are given different moves throughout the series.
They do so to make certain Pokemon a little better or change up the moveset with new moves.
The fact that Mewtwo has Thunder and Blizzard is to make him a more difficult boss.
It wouldn't be very fun if all he knew were mediocre moves with only 1 good move.
Bowser not using teleportation in SM64 very often is purely poor AI.
Bowser could have been given the AI to teleport everytime Mario approached, but that would be too hard for the target audience.
Bowser could easily teleport and use fireballs upon reappearing with ease. He has both abilities. Combining them is what makes it useful. Just because he was never shown possesing the Star Rod alongside the Mushroom doesn't mean he can't dual weild them.
Unless Aura Sphere is a targeting attack that pursues the opponent, then it won't be hitting something that's not even there anymore.
Pokemon only carry berries in the wild. Only caught Pokemon can hold items, but still require trainers to activate them with the exception of berries.
Accuracy would worsen if the opponent is actively disappearing and shooting fireballs upon reappearing.
In Pokemon, it has good acuraccy due to the fact that it's an RPG where opponents don't actively dodge.
Bowser is.
Accuracy would worsen.
Bowser would not be hit. At worst, he'll receive a Future Sight, but he can tank that attack.
This brings about the same strategy he won with.
He uses a distraction item to make Mewtwo use Embargo while Bowser planks with teleportation/fireballs, Embargo runs out and Bowser repeats until all of Mewtwo's PP is gone.
Then he pulls out the Star Rod to seal the deal.
@Sasha
The shadow is for the player so they know where Bowser went.
Remember, Mario games have always been targeting kids to buy their games. Making them too difficult makes kids cry and rage-quit. That makes angry parents which hurts sales.
EDIT:
WTF Raizen?
Changing the results without explaining why?
C'mon. You can run this thread better than this.
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
@Power: The whole debate.
I'm allowing Mewtwo TMs because, even though wild Pokemons may not gather TMs by themselves, they are still capable of doing so. A character must be at their fullest potential.
I'm allowing Mewtwo TMs because, even though wild Pokemons may not gather TMs by themselves, they are still capable of doing so. A character must be at their fullest potential.
justaway12
Smash Master
But it's completly not canon, there wwas no evidence of Mewtwo collecting TMs, or any other pokemon, not counting spin-offs.
He is a pokemon a rare pokemon, said to live in a cave or w/e, I don't expect him to nonchalantly walk up and snag TMs, completly out of character and NOT canon
And I already said why Bowser wins, even WITH TMs >_>
He is a pokemon a rare pokemon, said to live in a cave or w/e, I don't expect him to nonchalantly walk up and snag TMs, completly out of character and NOT canon
And I already said why Bowser wins, even WITH TMs >_>
PowerBomb
Smash Master
No they can't.
Pokemon NEVER CARRY TMs in the wild.
Also, Aura Sphere fails to work if it's out of range. IE, it fails against Fly, which makes the Pokemon Fly out of range. Bowser can teleport out of range and stall until Embargo wears out. Invincibility is then used.
Pokemon NEVER CARRY TMs in the wild.
Also, Aura Sphere fails to work if it's out of range. IE, it fails against Fly, which makes the Pokemon Fly out of range. Bowser can teleport out of range and stall until Embargo wears out. Invincibility is then used.
Diddy Kong
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This one's as easy as the previous one. ROB can't do anything really. Ike on the other hand...
EDIT: About Mewtwo again. No, he didn't appeared as a wild Pokemon in Melee. As a mather of fact, all characters appeared as THROPIES in that game. We don't know if Mewtwo, Pichu, Pikachu or Jigglypuff had Trainers in Melee.
I think we'll never agree anyway. When either one loses, fans of the character are gonna rage. Still gonna stick by Mewtwo's side here. Item loss is just too big of a loss to Bowser, and Mewtwo can **** him 1 vs 1.
EDIT2: Besides, there's always still Psych Up. Decription says: "Copies the foes effect(s) and gives it to the user." Invincibility is deffinatly an effect, so Embargo isn't even needed. And Mewtwo learns it naturally. <_<
And if Bowser's defences REALLY are so monsterous, and Mewtwo's really suck he could always you know... Guard Swap. Mewtwo can easiliy OHKOs himself so Bowser with Mewtwo's defences shouldn't be a problem.
EDIT: About Mewtwo again. No, he didn't appeared as a wild Pokemon in Melee. As a mather of fact, all characters appeared as THROPIES in that game. We don't know if Mewtwo, Pichu, Pikachu or Jigglypuff had Trainers in Melee.
I think we'll never agree anyway. When either one loses, fans of the character are gonna rage. Still gonna stick by Mewtwo's side here. Item loss is just too big of a loss to Bowser, and Mewtwo can **** him 1 vs 1.
EDIT2: Besides, there's always still Psych Up. Decription says: "Copies the foes effect(s) and gives it to the user." Invincibility is deffinatly an effect, so Embargo isn't even needed. And Mewtwo learns it naturally. <_<
And if Bowser's defences REALLY are so monsterous, and Mewtwo's really suck he could always you know... Guard Swap. Mewtwo can easiliy OHKOs himself so Bowser with Mewtwo's defences shouldn't be a problem.
REL38
Smash Lord
@Raizen
That would only apply IF Mewtwo had a trainer.
What's been used in Melee?
A Wild Pokemon
That would only apply IF Mewtwo had a trainer.
What's been used in Melee?
A Wild Pokemon
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
Hm, let me put it another way. If Mewtwo's capable of learning said move, then he's got it.
Why? Well, I've given every other character all possible 'things' they're able to obtain in all of their games (except Link, ofcourse), so I don't see why I should leave Mewtwo out of this.
You guys could still go on and debate. I won't finalize my decision till this round is over. You have about 3-4 more match-ups of time.
Why? Well, I've given every other character all possible 'things' they're able to obtain in all of their games (except Link, ofcourse), so I don't see why I should leave Mewtwo out of this.
You guys could still go on and debate. I won't finalize my decision till this round is over. You have about 3-4 more match-ups of time.
missingnomaster
Smash Lord
Bringing this up again... I'm actually not doing it for mewtwo, but for Pokemon Trainer, but it affects Mewtwo, so:
Catch and Release/Infinite Stupidity: It is possible for Mewtwo to be caught, trained, taught TMs, and then released. It would take extreme stupidity, but is technically possible. It is also possible for Red to trade mediocre pokemon in exchange for legendaries from other regions. '
This needs to be accepted/rejected.
OK, Raizen basically just confirmed this rule/theory but in different words.
Catch and Release/Infinite Stupidity: It is possible for Mewtwo to be caught, trained, taught TMs, and then released. It would take extreme stupidity, but is technically possible. It is also possible for Red to trade mediocre pokemon in exchange for legendaries from other regions. '
This needs to be accepted/rejected.
OK, Raizen basically just confirmed this rule/theory but in different words.
justaway12
Smash Master
@Raizen:Maybe because he can't obtian it.
@missing: He has never been shown with a trainer, so I don't think we should allow, also, Red is a completly separate character.
@missing: He has never been shown with a trainer, so I don't think we should allow, also, Red is a completly separate character.
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
I'll keep this simple.
If said thing is possible in-game, and it is NOT a game mechanic or glitch, then I will allow it. Unless it's something, really, really, stupid.
PowerBomb
Smash Master
Like Mewtwo getting TMs? Canon to his ****** game, he can't learn them since he's wild.
A Pokemon is wild if no trainer claims it and you can catch it.
In Melee, I don't think there's anything mentioning Mewtwo belonging to a character.
A Pokemon is wild if no trainer claims it and you can catch it.
In Melee, I don't think there's anything mentioning Mewtwo belonging to a character.
missingnomaster
Smash Lord
But what I posted (in addition to the only other way for Mewtwo to obtain TMs) IS really, really stupid.
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
Current Match-Up:
ROY Vs. MR. GAME & WATCH
Overall Results
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Neutral:
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Loss -1:
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Loss -2:
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ROY Vs. MR. GAME & WATCH
Overall Results
Wins +1:
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Loss -1:
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PowerBomb
Smash Master
Roy wins, Game and Watch can't do anything. Same thing as Robot, basically.
missingnomaster
Smash Lord
Game and Watch has physics issues and can't be very large. Roy will do something that will dismantle him/whatever would happen to G&W.
justaway12
Smash Master
edit
Forget It
Forget It
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
@Missingnomaster: That's just a step close to something really stupid. I'll allow it (as I already did).
PowerBomb
Smash Master
Then it would be Mario v Roy (lawl).
Mewtwo still loses. And he doesn't get TMs. If you let him get TMs, then you have to allow other characters to get their greatest potential, which makes some even more broken than before.
Mewtwo still loses. And he doesn't get TMs. If you let him get TMs, then you have to allow other characters to get their greatest potential, which makes some even more broken than before.
Salem
Smash Champion
I'm sorry.
But Marth can fully heal each turn with Falchion and can use a magic sword to attack the arwing when within range.
He can also use the Earth Orb to attack from anywhere.
Marth wins.
Next...
Roy... vs G&W?
What does G&W has?
justaway12
Smash Master
Oh boy, was I wrong >_>
I got it mixed up with this >_>
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/game-boy-games/45-1.jpg
Well, not really, but it was something similar.
They do the same mini-games, and everything, but you can't REALLY call it Mario, can you?
I got it mixed up with this >_>
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/game-boy-games/45-1.jpg
Well, not really, but it was something similar.
They do the same mini-games, and everything, but you can't REALLY call it Mario, can you?
MrEh
Smash Hero
This was mentioned already. In the actual Pokemon games, Psych Up only copies stat increases. Invincibility is not a stat increase. Otherwise, it would copy Protect. Which it does not.
Psych Up would do nothing in this situation.
Guard Swap doesn't even work like that.
Guard swap will only swap status boosts/drops in Defense and Sp. Defense. It will not swap Mewtwo and Bowser's base defenses.
REL38
Smash Lord
@Missing
When a Pokemon is released, it's pretty much deleted from the game.
You never see said Pokemon ever again.
There's no indication of Mewtwo ever being caught and taught TM's. Much less the specific move of Embargo since it's not very useful in-game.
@Raizen
Every character here has limitations. You're breaking em' for no good reason.
A Wild Mewtwo can't learn TM's, but now he can?
So why not give the Ness Jeff's Ray Gun?
Or give Lucas the ability to use PK Ground?
They could never use said abilities, but had access/could potentially learn them?
See the problem here?
Allowing Mewtwo abilities he couldn't access in-game means giving other characters the same treatment.
Imagine what the Fire Emblem guys get now.
And Mario with a Star Rod?
The reasoning of "had access to" is not a good reason to allow a character something they could never use.
When a Pokemon is released, it's pretty much deleted from the game.
You never see said Pokemon ever again.
There's no indication of Mewtwo ever being caught and taught TM's. Much less the specific move of Embargo since it's not very useful in-game.
@Raizen
Every character here has limitations. You're breaking em' for no good reason.
A Wild Mewtwo can't learn TM's, but now he can?
So why not give the Ness Jeff's Ray Gun?
Or give Lucas the ability to use PK Ground?
They could never use said abilities, but had access/could potentially learn them?
See the problem here?
Allowing Mewtwo abilities he couldn't access in-game means giving other characters the same treatment.
Imagine what the Fire Emblem guys get now.
And Mario with a Star Rod?
The reasoning of "had access to" is not a good reason to allow a character something they could never use.
missingnomaster
Smash Lord
Lol, I remember what happened that last time a "Full Power Rule" was implemented.
Also, pokemon being deleted when being released is very game mechanicky.
Salem
Smash Champion
*Facepalm with lols*
If Marth gets silencer he can possibly 1HKO anybody as that negates defenses such as being invincible.
I wish we had a few doubles fights so people can have backup.
But eh...
Doesn't work that way, PKMN Trainer controls mewtwo or whatever, Mewtwo can have said moves he has ingame.
Ness can't use Jeff's gun, it says so in the game, don't be silly.
WE should only allow things which are actually possible...
justaway12
Smash Master
Mewtwo is a wild pokemon in this game, catch and release won't work because then it would go forever if realeased.
Oh and he never been shown to have a trainer, we shouldn't give people things they don't/can't have...
Oh and he never been shown to have a trainer, we shouldn't give people things they don't/can't have...
PowerBomb
Smash Master
Mewtwo has no trainer.
And if something is invincible, it wouldn't be affected by anything harmful anyway
EDIT: Certain legendary Pokemon in HGSS regenerate if you release them (I think, or was it faint them?). Mewtwo is not one of them. Or I don't think he is.
And if something is invincible, it wouldn't be affected by anything harmful anyway
EDIT: Certain legendary Pokemon in HGSS regenerate if you release them (I think, or was it faint them?). Mewtwo is not one of them. Or I don't think he is.
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
Current Match-Up:
THE POWER MONKEY Vs. THE EVIL BROTHER
Diddy Kong Vs. Wario
Vs. Losers Round 1, Match 7.
Who will win? YOU decide!
Overall Results
Wins +2:
Wins +1:
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Loss -1:
Loss -2:
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, Edit: Wow, not what I expected.
Salem
Smash Champion
Hmm...
Hey...
I see BS.
We are allowing mario to have combinations of all his abillties and junk but Mewtwo can't?
@PB:
It bypasses the invincible ability ingame, nobody has such defense against it.
justaway12
Smash Master
When I said go forever, I mean you can't see it again...
I could say a Pokemon Trainer is back-up, since he isn't shown to have one and yet we are giving it to him...
I could say a Pokemon Trainer is back-up, since he isn't shown to have one and yet we are giving it to him...
Salem
Smash Champion
Exactly.
We need to be actually true to they're games and stop trying to hack and add in things they shouldn't have, like the ability to go back and obtain items which aren't in said other game.
We need the rule...
No back-up, including pokemon for Pkmn Trainer.
But of course back-up is only allowed in doubles cause... it's doubles, you need a partner.
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
Well, to begin, with your logic, you're saying that Marth can not get an item he obtains from a shop because he buys said item from the shopkeeper. Where will he find that shopkeeper on a neutral field? Where will Mario find his items on a neutral field?
Mewtwo can access those abilities in game, but does not. It is technically possible.
PowerBomb
Smash Master
Actually, he can't no matter what if he's wild.. If you guys give Mewtwo TMs, you're breaking canon.
@Salem: That would be a game mechanic. You can't break invincibility. It wouldn't be invincibility! xD
@Salem: That would be a game mechanic. You can't break invincibility. It wouldn't be invincibility! xD
justaway12
Smash Master
@Salem: I agree, unless that was an argument o_O
@Raizen: He REALLLY didn't have access to them, he couldn't go and buy it in a shop or scavange or anything, he is a wild pokemon, it is not technically possible in games since it breaks canon.
@Raizen: He REALLLY didn't have access to them, he couldn't go and buy it in a shop or scavange or anything, he is a wild pokemon, it is not technically possible in games since it breaks canon.
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
So, should I also not allow about the rest of the cast who rely on items, their items?
missingnomaster
Smash Lord
I believe he's called Pokemon Trainer for a reason.Exactly.
We need to be actually true to they're games and stop trying to hack and add in things they shouldn't have, like the ability to go back and obtain items which aren't in said other game.
We need the rule...
No back-up, including pokemon for Pkmn Trainer.
But of course back-up is only allowed in doubles cause... it's doubles, you need a partner.