Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

ShinoandtheBallonFighter · Nov 22, 2009

ExtremeSpeed is described as going at blinding speed. This in addition to it's name, makes it out to be VERY fast. Also, Samus hears correct? Assuming Red can utter the words "lapras, Perish song" or "Wobbuffet use Destiny Bond" before being shot, another draw scenario, or would samus still shoot him int he first second of the fight

Mewter · Nov 22, 2009

~~If Red has enough time to open his backpack and let it absorb the beam, then it will fly right back out of the backpack and obliterate Samus with its hammerspace awesomeness.~~

Back to Lucario versus Snake. Extremespeed is a priority move and thus works before the opponent can do anything about it in the games (unless they are using Extremespeed as well). Not to mention [Quick Attack] will let even Ratata outrun Mewtwo even if Mewtwo is faster than Garchomp (which is supposedly faster than a jet). Lucario also packs a never-miss Aura Sphere, so yeah. /characterbias

What are Snake's abilities here?

missingnomaster · Nov 22, 2009

Snake has a rocket launcher, machine gun, and grenade launcher, all rapid fire with unlimited ammo.

He's a lot more durable than a normal human, and has a lot (if not infinite) of rations that heal him.

And a box.

That's all I know.

PowerBomb · Nov 23, 2009

ShinoandtheBallonFighter said:
ExtremeSpeed is described as going at blinding speed. This in addition to it's name, makes it out to be VERY fast. Also, Samus hears correct? Assuming Red can utter the words "lapras, Perish song" or "Wobbuffet use Destiny Bond" before being shot, another draw scenario, or would samus still shoot him int he first second of the fight

Destiny Bond affects Red too, you know. Anyone hearing it faints eventually.

If Wobboffet decides to Destiny Bond w/o Safeguarding, then he dies.

@MU: Snake has all these guns and stuff. Does he get Rex?

Powerbomb: Thats where setting up a shield and run strategy comes in, plus he can carry an infinte amoutn of max revives...**** i guess I'm not done...sorry

He can carry 999 max revives, I think. Either 999 or 99, one of those two. Haven't AR'd my game in a while.
What makes you think the Pokemon will still be alive after being shot? Any Pokemon that is not Fire-type can get completely incinerated, and any Pokemon without Magma Armor can get Frozen. Freezing can be blocked via Safeguard, but incineration is total.

_clinton · Nov 23, 2009

Diddy Kong said:
By Speed Boosting alone, Samus has a big advantage against the Mother kids. Samus is an overall better warrior than both, and has better offensive options.

Again...you thinking speed boost is a great advantage vs. the Mother kids is bs when Ness fights foes that move freely though time and space + foes that move naturally "at very high speeds" and Lucas fights said same type of speedy foes...

Lol...and how is Samus a better warrior? Is this another thing that is in your mind? God at the start of her questing in Mother 3...Kumatora ****s up various machines with her psychic powers...including a tank...Lucas sort of is 100x better than Kumatora by end game...but at the start of the game...Kumatora shows that she is pretty powerful naturally to the point of being a threat to a full army...

PowerBomb said:
EDIT: I know this is late, but _clinton, you can't Speed Boost while immersed in magma. Gravity Suit is needed. Unless you cheat the game and do what I did to test that out, cause that doesn't work normally.

You missed my whole post in general...and didn't even answer the main point about it where I was explaining what the speed booster was...

Plus you didn't even answer the main thing I asked of you...which was to try speed boosting in an area that was "hot" without the protection of a certain "heat resistant" suit...

I didn't say anything about speed boosting in magma...I just said to try it in an area where you needed Samus' "level 2 armor"

Of course I don't know why I'm complaining about you guys avoiding responding to a post that has a point...you still haven't countered Lucas using his telepathic powers on Bowser and Samus...

PowerBomb said:
What makes you think the Pokemon will still be alive after being shot? Any Pokemon that is not Fire-type can get completely incinerated, and any Pokemon without Magma Armor can get Frozen. Freezing can be blocked via Safeguard, but incineration is total.

You are aware that most of the pokemon that the Pokemon trainer can use would be boss monsters in the Metroid world...and some of them would be normal foes in the Mother world...

Ussi · Nov 23, 2009

Snake's explosions are super effective since they're fire.

Aurasphere makes Snake's stealth null unless it counts like "fly" or "dig"

Diddy Kong · Nov 23, 2009

Double Team could help Lucario evade Snake's projectiles.
Substitute would protect Lucario against damage.
Swords Dance to raise attack power.
And then a physical ranged attack as Rock Slide or something to OHKO Snake.

ShinoandtheBallonFighter · Nov 23, 2009

I'm just pissing everyone off, so I'm done with Red.

I think diddy Kong's got it...guess i was wrong

Samochan · Nov 23, 2009

Shino, extremespeed pokemon cannot carry red. It would mess with their weight and aerodynamics, the move doesn't work that way either. Extremespeed is strictly an attacking move. If it were run away tactics, you'd need to use moves such as agility and things. But basically any pokemon using a move takes around 4-5 seconds depending of the move used, plenty of time for samus to do whatever things she does. Red can also have only 1 pokemon on the field from the start (HGSS), but would need to toss up more pokeballs and when he's tossing and unable to utter any commands, Samus is already doing some of her stuff which are lethal to red.

Mirror coat would be a very ****ty strategy, cause Samus can OHKO the pokes easily or freeze them, so coat wouldn't even work. OHKO'ed pokemon cannot mirror coat back. Wobba is the only pokemon worth mentioning that prolly won't get ohkoed, but samus doesn't need to shoot a slow blue wobbling target anyway.

Diddy Kong · Nov 23, 2009

I doubt Samus would OHKO ALL Pokemon, especially the legendaries. I think if not for the actual Pokemon Trainer himself, the Pokemon would win. Using Mimic on the Phazon Beam, Speed Booster or whatever would prove very useful. Spore and Thunder Wave also would put Samus at a disadvantage.

Ray_Kalm · Nov 23, 2009

By your logistics, Samus will be able to OHKO Mewtwo before he has time to react as well.

What if Red were to use 6 Pokemons with very heavy defense which can't be OHKO by Aran?

Steelix, Registeel, Metagross, Jirachi, Dialga, and Heatran (Heatran who is fire AND steel) come to mind. Bastiodon and Aggron are two others. There's also Lucario if Red is allowed him (there are actually multiple Lucarios canon wise). I doubt Samus will be able to OHKO all of them, not all at once atleast.

What about a combination of 6 Lucarios?

Samochan · Nov 23, 2009

Diddy Kong said:
I doubt Samus would OHKO ALL Pokemon, especially the legendaries. I think if not for the actual Pokemon Trainer himself, the Pokemon would win. Using Mimic on the Phazon Beam, Speed Booster or whatever would prove very useful. Spore and Thunder Wave also would put Samus at a disadvantage.

I kinda doubt pokemon could mimic phazon beam, as phazon beam needs internal phazon source for it to work. And besides, corrupted samus GAINS HEALTH from phazon, not lose it. xD Pokemon would also doom themselves when coming in contact with phazon when trying to fire a phazon beam lol.

In any case, I also doubt mimic could work against any of her weaponry, because what you need to produce those is a chozo suit. Pokemon moves come from the pokemon themselves (like producing water and flames from mouth, aka empty space), they do not need extra things to produce attacks whatsoever but use some sorta internal energy to produce those attacks. (I imagine the amount of internal energy needed to produce an attack of different force and effect transfers to PP, usually the stronger the attack, the less PP you have). Mimic cannot copy Shadow moves for example, because non-shadow pokemon is unable to produce such attacks and mimic instead states "but it failed!" when you try to copy shadow move as your last attack. Mimic also fails when used against protect, so her invulnerability would render a mimic pokemon unable to copy her last attack move.

Samus has also shown immunity to poison effects, alongside phazon radiation and Dark Aether climate, though she can still take damage from venom weed and acid because they strain her suit's force field protection, if you're in contact with poisonous substance for extended period of time. She's protected inside her suit, so no actual ailment moves that do no damage would effect her. She cannot get status ailmented per se, unless it's a computer virus or an electric attack, but in that case her suit basically reboots itself if it's a virus and the paralysis from electric attacks only renders her HUD inactive for a moment. T-wave can miss however and she's invincible while in her hyper mode, screw attacking or speed boosting.

Samus would only need to ohko in case of someone using mirror coat, but the only notable mirror coat users that could actually take 1 charged beam shot before getting pwned would be wobba, deoxys defence forme, suicune, tentacruel & swampert. But Samus is not limited to one beam shot in any case and can rapidly fire many super effective beam shots, alongside using moves that incinerate targets such as power bomb.

Lucario is half steel, so any liberal use of her plasma beam would deal massive damage to any Lucario. >_> Not only that, but the plasma beam would also go through that pokemon and hit Red/another pokemon as well. <_<; I'd ill advice against using steel types cept Heatran, simply cause her plasma beam has fairly quick rate of firing things.

In any case, PT can have 1 pokemon out in the beginning and then needs to toss out all the rest, but Samus doesn't even need to deal with the pokemon and can just go for PT himself. She has many things she can use to just wipe PT out in one move. It only takes 2 seconds to lift her arm cannon and fire imperialist at PT, or 3 seconds to morph, boost the distance and drop a power bomb at his feet, 4-5 seconds to go into hyper mode, lift her arm cannon, charge phazon beam and let it roll etc.

Oh and what about that Omega Cannon she can use in Hunters? That nuclear weapon of mass destruction?

REL38 · Nov 23, 2009

You just got the answer.

Omega Canon = Obliteration

Everything in the nearby vicinity dies.
Samus can get out of range fast enough.
PT probably can't.

PowerBomb · Nov 23, 2009

@ MU: So is Snake allowed to use Rex?

Samochan · Nov 23, 2009

PowerBomb said:
@ MU: So is Snake allowed to use Rex?

Is snake playable on some part of the game where you can use Rex? (I assume you're talking bout Metal Gear/it's cousin you can see on Shadow Moses island on brawl) If he is, I see no reason for him to not be able to use it. However if it's only liek cutscene or something where he just rides it to another place, but doesn't use it otherwise, nope.

Diddy Kong · Nov 23, 2009

Its this thing right? I smell overkill. O_O

Dunno if it's allowed, wouldn't it be refered to as back up?

Samochan · Nov 23, 2009

Would someone explain wtf is Rex anyway? <_> I haven't played any metal gear and I've only seen the first Metal gear solid for playstation being played...

ShinoandtheBallonFighter · Nov 23, 2009

Samochan said:
Shino, extremespeed pokemon cannot carry red. It would mess with their weight and aerodynamics, the move doesn't work that way either. Extremespeed is strictly an attacking move. If it were run away tactics, you'd need to use moves such as agility and things. But basically any pokemon using a move takes around 4-5 seconds depending of the move used, plenty of time for samus to do whatever things she does. Red can also have only 1 pokemon on the field from the start (HGSS), but would need to toss up more pokeballs and when he's tossing and unable to utter any commands, Samus is already doing some of her stuff which are lethal to red.

Mirror coat would be a very ****ty strategy, cause Samus can OHKO the pokes easily or freeze them, so coat wouldn't even work. OHKO'ed pokemon cannot mirror coat back. Wobba is the only pokemon worth mentioning that prolly won't get ohkoed, but samus doesn't need to shoot a slow blue wobbling target anyway.

Hence why the focus sash is used, it allows the pokemon to survive a lethal blow, which would allow it to counter with mirrot coat. And isn't extremespeed being an attacking move game mechanics? If a pokemon is strong enough to lift the trainer and fast enough to move at blinding speed, the only thing limiting this is the game mechanics of the pokemon games.

Samochan · Nov 23, 2009

ShinoandtheBallonFighter said:
Hence why the focus sash is used, it allows the pokemon to survive a lethal blow, which would allow it to counter with mirrot coat. And isn't extremespeed being an attacking move game mechanics? If a pokemon is strong enough to lift the trainer and fast enough to move at blinding speed, the only thing limiting this is the game mechanics of the pokemon games.

Cept it being game mechanics doesn't make it invalid. "The user charges at foe with blinding speed", that speed used to put some weight into your charged attack. If it were transportation technique it wouldn't be very hard to implement it into the game, cept that would make bicycle kinda obsolete then.

Besides, pokemon that cannot usually move at blinding speed shouldn't be able to with excess cargo. It ruins their aerodyamics and besides, would you be able to run at full speed if you had to carry someone on your back? An average 13 year old male kid would prolly weight around 35-50kg, that's more weight than pokes weight on average and most are even taller than pre-puberty kid. The only non-legendaries that learn extremespeed are Arcanine, Lucario and Togekiss (and HGSS special dratini), Arcanine being the only grounded one big enough who could actually carry PT on it's back. None of those even break into the 100 speed base stat grouping, not even Rayquaza.

Extremespeed again is using this pokemon internal source of energy to transform it into an attack of sorts (with max pp aka power points of 8), it's not a transportation technique unlike fly is, and pokemon unable to reach blinding speed can use such attack if they use up their energy, but carrying excess load would consume a lot more energy than needed and would ultimately fail.

Focus sash would be a good tactic with mirror coat, but in the end there's little mirror coat pokemon which would be little of use to PT other than Mirror coating and in the end, the damage doubled by mirror coat would be reduced by 75% because she wears gravity suit and at maximum can deal double the amount of hp pokemon has -1. So it would hardly be much at all and she'd be aware of it in the future + the pokemon only having 1 hp then. Focus sash wouldn't work either if she did little damage beforehand.

Another note is that mirror coat needs be used on the same turn when your opponent is going to attack you, yet it always goes last. So if a pokemon did a mirror coat, but samus didn't attack it, it would render the pokemon incapable of doing anything else for some duration of time. Samus could charge a beam shot, for example or do something completely different that couldn't be reflected, like speed boosting or power bombing. There's also that Samus is able to transform into her hyper mode in half of a second and same with morph ball, more time than it takes for beam to travel, get absorbed by mirror coat then mirrored back at her, so she should be more than capable of blocking the attack or dodging it. I wouldn't find it farfecthed eith that samus would scan the pokemon using mirror coat or not attack it if poke trainer yelled it to do so, yet the pokemon just sits there doing nothing lol. That would be suspicious.

Diddy Kong · Nov 23, 2009

Then mostly any character with invincibility can defeat PT. The Kongs also could just walk past all PT's Pokemon with Going Bananas and then kill the trainer with an attack...

Samochan · Nov 23, 2009

Diddy Kong said:
Then mostly any character with invincibility can defeat PT. The Kongs also could just walk past all PT's Pokemon with Going Bananas and then kill the trainer with an attack...

PT has the ability to fly on his pokemon, so the invincible char must be able to reach him as well with a good attack or physically (which both samus can coindidentally do very well). PT flying on a powerful, quick legendary pokemon is troublesome in any case unless someone happens to possess weapons of mass destruction (like sammy

). But in the end, char with good invincibility option is a high/top tier in any case and usually beats the crap out of most of the cast. <_<

ShinoandtheBallonFighter · Nov 23, 2009

Like I said, Snake has better defensive options while Snake has more options for longe range...though what exactly is Rock Throw lookign like IRL, becuase if it's a torrent of rocks then Snake might be in trouble, but if's a single rock being thrown, then it doesn't seemt o frightening

Ray_Kalm · Nov 23, 2009

On the match-up: I'd have to go with Snake. Both characters are good at hand-to-hand combat, and both character have powerful range attacks. Snake has it better.

JOE! · Nov 23, 2009

snake has guns, why is this even a discussion?

_clinton · Nov 23, 2009

Samochan said:
PT has the ability to fly on his pokemon, so the invincible char must be able to reach him as well with a good attack or physically (which both samus can coindidentally do very well). PT flying on a powerful, quick legendary pokemon is troublesome in any case unless someone happens to possess weapons of mass destruction (like sammy ). But in the end, char with good invincibility option is a high/top tier in any case and usually beats the crap out of most of the cast. <_<

So what you are saying is that Samus has a good invincibility option? I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with that...

If we are talking about Phazon at least...

missingnomaster · Nov 23, 2009

ShinoandtheBallonFighter said:
Hence why the focus sash is used, it allows the pokemon to survive a lethal blow, which would allow it to counter with mirrot coat. And isn't extremespeed being an attacking move game mechanics? If a pokemon is strong enough to lift the trainer and fast enough to move at blinding speed, the only thing limiting this is the game mechanics of the pokemon games.

Why are you so intent on the pokemon surviving the attack when it's Red who is going to die?
Plasma Beam hits the pokemon, goes through, and hits Red. Samus only has to charge it for like a second and it will go super fast thanks to Nova Beam (which also has been shown to be very lethal if it hits someone's brain, which Plasma Beam allows it to do)

WhatIsRaizen? · Nov 23, 2009

So, Snake is it?

JOE! · Nov 23, 2009

WhatIsRaizen? said:
So, Snake is it?

well yeah, what can lucario do vs SOCOM?
or an Ak-47?

UncleSam · Nov 23, 2009

_clinton said:
So what you are saying is that Samus has a good invincibility option? I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with that...

I'm all ears.

Lovely · Nov 23, 2009

JOE! said:
snake has guns, why is this even a discussion?

Because we haven't seen a gun kill a Pokemon? ;p

Mewter · Nov 23, 2009

I don't even understand what the problem is here. All the Pokemon has to do is use Me First and use the same offensive strategy beforehand to win. If you don't know what Me First is, look it up.

And before you say something like "But the Pokemanz don't have guns!", Jigglypuff would like to say a few words:

missingnomaster · Nov 23, 2009

Interesting.

Why do I keep forgetting key pokemon strategies...

Samochan · Nov 23, 2009

Mewter said:
I don't even understand what the problem is here. All the Pokemon has to do is use Me First and use the same offensive strategy beforehand to win. If you don't know what Me First is, look it up.

And before you say something like "But the Pokemanz don't have guns!", Jigglypuff would like to say a few words:

I'd like to see any pokemon using Me first move when Samus is about to fire phazon beam or morph into a morph ball. :/

Phazon beam, they'd dissolve themselves and morph ball would uh, make them horribly mangled like space pirates in prime 1 trying to copy morph ball. xD

But basically samus can take a hit even from her own weaponry even when 1,5x damage ratio (-75% though), while the pokemons cannot. =) Any small thing they Me first doesn't do more than tickle and the massive damage ones uh, kill them. =)

WhatIsRaizen? · Nov 23, 2009

Loser's Round 3

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE hERO OF TIME Vs. THE SUPER ATHLETE

Link Vs. Zero Suit Samus

Vs.

Loser's Round 3, Match 1.

Who will win? YOU decide!

Overall Results

Wins +3:

,

Wins +2:

,

Wins +1:

,

,

, :mewtwo:

Neutral:

,

,

Loss -1:

,

,

ichu:

Loss -2:

,

Loss -3:

,

Ray_Kalm · Nov 23, 2009

Me First copies any damage-dealing move that the target is about to use and increases the power by 50%, if the foe has not made the first move.

Despite some confusion from the in-game description, Me First will only work if the user is faster than the foe or moves first due to an effect from a Custap Berry or a Quick Claw. If the foe is faster than the user, Me First will fail to copy the attack. If the foe uses a non-damaging move, Me First will fail.

Mewter · Nov 23, 2009

Hey! This isn't over!

Pokemon can't die in battle (at least, not at the hands of a main-story pokemon trainer.)

As long as you keep attacking, Me First will always continue to go first since it is a priority move like Extremespeed.

Can Lucario make a gun out of Me First? Absolutely. Pokemon can use attacks like Milk Drink or Egg Bomb from absolutely nothing, so it wouldn't be surprising if they could create a gun.

Basically, the Pokemon holds a Focus Sash which prevents it from dying from the first hit. It then can use Me First two times, killing Samus.
Or something like that, at least.

Ray_Kalm · Nov 23, 2009

Mewter said:
Hey! This isn't over!

Raizen will still change the match-up if another victor is determined.

Pokemon can't die in battle (at least, not at the hands of a main-story pokemon trainer.)
As long as you keep attacking, Me First will always continue to go first since it is a priority move like Extremespeed.

That's quite an interesting fact.

PowerBomb · Nov 23, 2009

Mewter said:
Hey! This isn't over!

It should be.

Pokemon can't die in battle (at least, not at the hands of a main-story pokemon trainer.)
As long as you keep attacking, Me First will always continue to go first since it is a priority move like Extremespeed.

Me First is not a priority move >_> The Pokemon HAS to attack first with it else it'll fail.
Pokemon not dying is a game mechanic for all of the little children out there.

Can Lucario make a gun out of Me First? Absolutely. Pokemon can use attacks like Milk Drink or Egg Bomb from absolutely nothing, so it wouldn't be surprising if they could create a gun.

I'd be surprised if they knew what a gun is.

Basically, the Pokemon holds a Focus Sash which prevents it from dying from the first hit. It then can use Me First two times, killing Samus.
Or something like that, at least.

Me First doesn't copy damage, it copies the move power and uses the users Attack/Special Attack to return the damage. It's basically returning the same move with STAB. And I daresay that Samus has better defense then the vast majority of Pokemon.

The stacked beam Samus has will also incapacitate any Pokemon without Safeguard up...

REMEMBER
If Red gets hit once, it's GG

Mewter · Nov 23, 2009

Woops. My bad. I'm sorry about that guys. >_<
Samus wins, I guess.

That is, unless the Pokemon is Mewtwo.

Extra info that won't be a determining factor:
If this is Mewtwo, then it is faster than a jet plane in both physical speed and faster than Alakazam (which is at par with a super computer, mind you at 135 base Sp Att, while Mewtwo has base 154) mental speed (faster than Samus physically).

Bogus or not, that's what the Pokedex says (and who can trust that thing?).

PowerBomb · Nov 23, 2009

Mewter said:
Woops. My bad. I'm sorry about that guys. >_<
Samus wins, I guess.

That is, unless the Pokemon is Mewtwo.

Extra info that won't be a determining factor:
If this is Mewtwo, then it is faster than a jet plane in both physical speed and faster than Alakazam (which is at par with a super computer, mind you at 135 base Sp Att, while Mewtwo has base 154) mental speed (faster than Samus).

Pokedex spews bull out of its computerized failclopedia. Sorry, I don't believe Pokemon actually do that stuff, and comparing each Pokemon that way is not entirely correct.

Think about it.

I'm a human and my sister is human. Human = Human correct? My sister is also a vegetarian. Because she is a human and a vegetarian, I am therefore a vegetarian, but I'm not really a vegetarian in reality.

Comparing Pokemon with their base stats can lead to weird things. Think about it: Would a Pokemon like Gastrodon REALLY go faster than a jet plane if it had more speed than Garchomp?

Bogus or not, that's what the Pokedex says (and who can trust that thing?).

G-d*mnit, ninja'd.

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