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~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~

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Half-Split Soul

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Ness' dtilt doesn't trip at chance.

It's a specific part of the hitbox.
Are you absolutely sure?

The reason I'm doubting this is that if there really is one specific part of his Dtilt hitbox that forces a trip for sure it would mean two things:

  1. It'd be possible to learn to hit with that part of the hitbox on purpose and to cause a trip
  2. It'd be possible to use the frame advantage after a trip to position Ness correctly for that part of the hitbox to hit and thus cause a new trip

This would give Ness a true infinite against the whole cast on any stage in any situation as long as he just hits once with that one part of his Dtilt. Somehow I have hard time imagining something like that being programmed into the game. I also recall tripping the same character from completely different distances with Ness' Dtilt, although there's always a chance this is just me remembering wrong.
 

zeldspazz

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Its true HSS Ive heard multiple Ness mains say this, its really uncommon knowledge though.
 

Kataefi

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I never knew about this O.O

So Ness has an infinite if he catches someone in this hitbox?
 

zeldspazz

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It's not true......
Yes it is? Go ask the Ness mains if you want x.x

EDIT: Nevermind here is a post I found:

Some Ness stuff:

-Unlike most moves that cause tripping, Ness' dtilt does not have a % chance to trip, but rather a sweetspot that guarantees a trip. Most players either don't know this or don't/can't take advantage of it because the sweetspot is extremely small; just don't be surprised when someone masters this and hits you with a yoyo after a 3-frame move that tripped you (they could hit you with a bat too, but if you react fast enough you have time to roll away from the bat).
 

zeldspazz

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I know cus what happens is the knockback of Ness's dtilt pushes the opposing character very slightly forward everytime, and eventually after hitting it a certain amount of times it will hit the sweetspot due the knockback. Its what the move was designed to do. THEORETICALLY it could trip every time you use it. Its requires a massive amount of spacing however.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I know cus what happens is the knockback of Ness's dtilt pushes the opposing character very slightly forward everytime, and eventually after hitting it a certain amount of times it will hit the sweetspot due the knockback. Its what the move was designed to do. THEORETICALLY it could trip every time you use it. Its requires a massive amount of spacing however.
If that was the case once you achieved the right spacing it will continuously trip therefore after. Try forcing a trip walk slightly forward then dtilt again. Won't trip them again.
 

zeldspazz

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I dont know all the physics of the move, thats just what I was told X.X I dont main Ness so frankly I could care less lmao
 

KayLo!

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Zelda PSA Values, Part 1: Character Attributes

A few things:

- No, I don't know what units they're measured in. Best I can do is post other characters' numbers for comparison if you'd like me to.

- If you need an explanation for what something means (i.e., "Wtf is 'StopTurn Deceleration'?!"), I can post the definition given by PSA.

- I'm still in the process of copying her moveset data, but it takes so ****ing long by hand. (For some reason, attribute data is copy-able but move data isn't.) So this is all you get for now. I'll probably be done moveset stuff either later today or Sunday.

Walk Initial Velocity: 0.2
Walk Acceleration: 0.1
Walk Maximum Velocity: 0.8
Stopping Velocity: 0.054
Dash & StopTurn Initial Velocity: 1.25
StopTurn Deceleration: 0.1175
StopTurn Acceleration: 0.04
Run Initial Velocity: 1.224
Jump Startup Time: 6
Jump V Initial Velocity: 2.09
Jump H Initial Velocity: 1.1
Hop V Initial Velocity: 1.463
Air Jump Multiplier: 0.86
Footstool V Initial Velocity: 2.717
Gravity: 0.067
Terminal Velocity: 1.13
Air Mobility: 0.09
Air Stopping Mobility: 0.01
Maximum H Air Velocity: 0.987
Weight: 85
Shield Size: 9.5
Shield Break Bounce Velocity: 2.299
Edge Jump V Velocity: 0.65
Edge Jump H Velocity: 2.25
Item Throw Strength: 0.8
Projectile Weapon Use Move Speed: 0.8
Projectile Weapon Use F Dash Speed: 1
Projectile Weapon Use B Dash Speed: 0.8
Walljump H Velocity: 1.3
Walljump V Velocity: 2.1


:)

P.S. There were other numbers, but they had no tags to explain what they meant, so I didn't copy those.
 
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Farore's Wind Projectile Priority

Hi. Um, I was picking up Zelda, so I decided to do some research on something. I researched Farore Wind's first hitbox's priority against all the projectiles. Should I post the chart with the info here?

EDIT:

I got the OK from Kataefi, so here's a chart. I'll try to scrounge up a good chart program, because Works Spreadsheet isn't letting me delete columns and rows. >__> Anyways, here it is:

____
Key:
"C"=Cancel: Farore's Wind's first hit(FW) cancelled the projectile
"C1"=Cancel One: FW cancelled the first hit in a multi-hit attack, e.g. FLUDD
"P"=Poke: The projectile passed through FW and dealt damage to Zelda. Not necessarily knockback
"D"=Deflect: FW deflect the projectile. Not cancelled, simply altered its path
"K"=Kill: Only applies to Pikmin. FW killed the fresh Pikmin on contact the first time
*(#)=This indicates a note. Refer to the bottom of the post for notes

For this, I used my definition of a projectile: A box, be it hurt or hit, that is completely independent of the charater who spawned it. That is, the box can be hit without any effect on the character who spawned it, and it is not forced to come into contact with the character again. Because of this, tether attacks are not projectiles, as they are forced to return to the character, Falco's Reflector is not a projectile, as it is forced to return to him, etc. But, Pikmin and Boomerangs are projectiles as Pikmin can be evaded by Olimar and so can the Boomerangs by their respective owners. Also, "gravity" cannot be the only force acting on the box to make it move. That is, its only means of movement cannot simply be falling. Because of this, Samus' Bomb isn't a projectile.


____Mario's Fireball__FLUDD__TL's Arrow*1__TL's Boomerang__TL's Bomb*2__
|FW---------C-------------C1--------------------C-------------------C----------------P----------

____Link's Arrow__Link's Boomerang__Link's Bomb__ Charge Shot No Charge__
|FW-----------C----------------C-----------------------P----------------------C--------------

____Charge Shot Half__Charge Shot Max__Samus' Tilt Missile__Samus' Smash Missile__
|FW--------------C-------------P/C*3----------------------C-----------------------C---------------

____Final Cutter__Fox's Blaster__Falco's Blaster__Thunderjolt*4__Thunder__Skillet*5__
|FW------P-------------------P------------------P------------------C-------------------------P-----------C-------

____Bucket*6__Luigi's Fireball__Peanut*7__Banana__Tossed Banana__Needle 1__
|FW-----P---------------C-----------------------C------------P--------------P-----------------C-------

____Needle Storm*8__Din's Fire*9__Pit's Arrow__Watergun Bubbles__Watergun__
|FW--------C1----------------C---------------C-----------------P------------------C1------

____Bullet Seed__Razor Leaf__Rock Smash Fragments__Flamethrower__Grenade*10__
|FW------P---------------C------------------C1-----------------------C1--------------D----------

____Tossed Grenade__Nikita__Cypher__Tossed Turnip__Eggtoss__Yoshi Bomb Stars__
|FW--------D---------------D--------P--------------C-------------P----------------C------------

____Ice Blocks__Blizzard__D3 Jump Stars__Waddle Dee__Waddle Doo__Waddle Doo Beam
|FW-----D---------P?*11-----------C-----------------D---------------D-----------------C1---------

____Gordo__Wolf's Blaster__Baby Aura Sphere*12__Half Aura Sphere__Max Aura Sphere__
|FW----P-----------P----------------------C------------------------C--------------------C-----------

____Force Palm Flame__Ness' PK Thunder__Ness' PK Thunder's Tail__PK Cross*13__
|FW----------P---------------------C----------------------P---------------------P-----------

____Ness' PK Fire__Lucas' PK Thunder__Lucas' PK Thunder's Tail__PK Freeze__Lucas' PK Fire
|FW----C1?*14--------------C--------------------------P---------------------P---------------P-----

____Spring__Firebreath__Bike__Small Wheel__Big Wheel__ROB's Laser Thin__
|FW----C----------C1-------D/C1--------C--------------C---------------P--------------

____ROB's Laser Max__Gyro No Charge__Gyro Half__Gyro Max__Tossed Gyro__
|FW----------P-----------------C------------------C------------D-------------D---------

____Red Pikmin*16__Blue Pikmin__Yellow Pikmin__White Pikmin__Purple Pikmin__
|FW--------D-----------------D---------------D---------------K-----------------D/C--------


Notes:
*1: Farore's Wind deflected both Link and Toon Link's arrows at all levels of charge
*2: Both bombs were tossed, not smash tossed
*3: Samus' full Charge Shot made a cancel visual effect, but still damaged Zelda. This could indicate that it has two almost fused hits
*4: Farore's Wind cancelled both the aerial and the grounded versions of Thunderjolt
*5: Farore's Wind cancelled all of Skillet's food items
*6: The Bucket was filled with three Din's Fires
*7: Farore's Wind cancelled the Peanuts at all levels of charge
*8: Because even a slightly charged Needle looses more than one needle, testing a Needle Storm would yield the same results
*9: The amount of time Din's Fire was held did not affect the results
*10: The Grenade was tossed with a medium toss
*11: Because of the amount of visual effects created by Blizard, I could not see whether Farore's Wind cancelled one or was simply poked
*12: All Aura Spheres were launched by a Lucario at 0%
*13: Both PK Cross and PK Freeze were charged fully before being released
*14: Because of the amount of visual effects created by Ness' PK Fire, I could not see whether Farore's Wind cancelled one or was simply poked
*15: All Pikmin were fresh

--

Tell me if I missed any!
 

Kataefi

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This is such an interesting chart most defiinitely!

Me, Veggi and Zeldspazz were talking about SDI... is there any chance someone can link me to every multihit move in the game, as well as every single hit move that doesn't have tooooo much knockback... an example being sonic's DA at lower percents.

If I can get this I can start testing a few ideas.

I'm also compiling a list of everything you can Bair and Fair OoS. I'll indicate when it's always guaranteed or when the opponent has to mispace on her shield.

TIME TO GET ACTIVE!
 

zeldspazz

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Its about time too ^_^ But jesus kata that'll take some time haha but Ill see what I can do.

Excellent chart indigo I cant believe I didnt see that sooner!
 

GodAtHand

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I don't know if anyone wants to look into this, as its not really that important. I was playing an Ike and I hit him off the stage low, and I grabbed the ledge when he was trying to recover I wasn't going to be able to get the edgehog so I did a gettup attack. It is the before 100% one, the one where Zelda break dances for a second. and he got hit by the very end of it when Zelda's legs are a little bit off stage. It hit him away and downward and then when he tried to recover again I kept not timing it quite right for the edgehog, but this kept working... I got him from like 40% to almost 80% doing this...
 

Kataefi

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So erm... I've looked into some more mechanics of nair, one of which leads straight into an fair sweetspot. Weirdly it's SDI, DI and percent friendly as well.

It's precisely how hotgarbage said however it's also dependant on a number of interesting factors:

- side of the character's hurtbox
- number of hits
- the actual location of the hitbox

It needs to occur on a grounded opponent, which this in itself makes it difficult to land /disclaimer

_

Anyone wanna do me a list on SDI as well? I'm feeling lazy :( Just list the optimal inputs for getting to the sides of the opponent and I'll be happy! *secretly looking at zeldspazz and possibly veggie*

_

Anyone wanna get me frames for autocancelling nair behind an opponent's shield? Roughly how objectively safe it is against SH bairs, whether these bairs can be powershielding upon landing etc etc etc...

SLAVEDRIVER IS BACK!
 

zeldspazz

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Haha Im sorta busy right now but if I get a chance Ill look into Kata. I did wanna help with this SDI stuff :D
 

MRTW113

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I don't know if anyone wants to look into this, as its not really that important. I was playing an Ike and I hit him off the stage low, and I grabbed the ledge when he was trying to recover I wasn't going to be able to get the edgehog so I did a gettup attack. It is the before 100% one, the one where Zelda break dances for a second. and he got hit by the very end of it when Zelda's legs are a little bit off stage. It hit him away and downward and then when he tried to recover again I kept not timing it quite right for the edgehog, but this kept working... I got him from like 40% to almost 80% doing this...
Late hitbox? Did the sword of Ike miss you or did the legs out range him? Sounds like a cool semispike, but theres probably better things to edgeguard with than ledge attack...
 

#HBC | Scary

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Did any of you know that you can do the rising Nayru's love out of shield. As long as there is shield pushback, and your quick on the input, you can use this as an escape rope in bad situations, and still have your DJ as well.

Btw, does anyone use platform canceling? It can make RC a nightmare for people that get caught in Usmash well.
 

Kataefi

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Well it has spiking properties - it depends on whether it can be controlled - it may be a cause of weird SDI or something. Basically it was discovered by HG that nair has 4 different trajectories - left, right, up, down. Down is possible but too finicky. It's a very mild weak spike like a sourspot dair. I know for sure it has something to do with the 4th hit.

edit: I will make that section clearer in the OP to not mislead people.
 

MrEh

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Think of it like Ivysaur's Nair.

Out of all the silly hitboxes, one of them sends em' down.
 

Half-Split Soul

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A more vertical trajectory can be seen in the video. It is currently uknown how this is achieved though it is suspected to be done by hitting with 2 hits of the nair.
Is this still unexplained?

I'm asking because I studied autocanceled Nair more today and now have a pretty solid understanding of it's trajectories.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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can ftilt spike?

Also I think if you auto cancel nair after the 4th hit it'll send em straight down.
 

KayLo!

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Hey guys.

I dunno if it's been mentioned fifty billion times already or not, but I think nair sends people straight down after the 4th hit.

Not sure, though.
 

MrEh

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Nair spiking would be something neat to look into if it actually happened on a consistent abusable basis.
 

WickedDeceit

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Sometimes if my friend is stalling by hanging on the ledge, I jump offstage, wait for the invisibility frames to end and Nair him. This spikes on a fairly consistent basis though I have no idea if it's because the Nair slams him into the stage first.
 

Kataefi

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InnocentRoads has discovered a new form of DACUS. Whether this is character exclusive or universal is not yet decided. Could someone possibly test this with Zelda as I don't have my wii available. I have my doubts, but a Usmash DACUS would be lovely :)

Thread is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264193
Looks pretty exclusive to Diddy Kong right now.
 

JuJux

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InnocentRoads has discovered a new form of DACUS. Whether this is character exclusive or universal is not yet decided. Could someone possibly test this with Zelda as I don't have my wii available. I have my doubts, but a Usmash DACUS would be lovely :)

Thread is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264193
Looks pretty exclusive to Diddy Kong right now.
OMG ? Oo ... How does it work ?
I don't have my wii available too :/ ..
 

Half-Split Soul

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It's done by buffering a dash attack out of something else (sidestep, landing lag, attack etc...) and then pressing C-stick up in the second frame of that dash attack you just buffered.
Edit: actually, it's not yet completely sure whether you must press C-stick up for the second time 1 frame after the previous command or one frame after the dash attack initiates.


I'm going to check if I find anything new for Zelda with this. As for command inputs, the easiest way to do this is:
Sidestep dodge=>buffered right/left with control stick=>buffered up with C-stick=>up with C-stick


Oh also, since I happened to post here: that "Ness' Dtilt has a part of hitbox that forces a trip, it can't trip randomly" thing discussed some posts back? I checked it. It's bull****.
 
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