The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

Meru. · Dec 1, 2009

M@v said:
Eh. I got mixed feeling about recovering high with peach. Its matchup dependant with me. In some matchups I can come back down to the stage safely with dair and nair, and when I'm floating back, I am too high to get edgeguarded . In other matchup like vs people with good up aerials and forward aerials(A certain puffball with a sword comes to mind), your writing a death sentence to get wrecked.

I personally don't find recovering with her a major problem. She has a very good aerials, which are either fast, have range or move her body, a good evasive second jump and special moves that can help, but should not be abused.

However, that's not my point. I just wonder why they gave her such a bad airdodge, as she doesn't have a broken recovery which always brings her back to the stage safely.

EDIT: What do you guys mean with unfinished? I thought it was just badly balanced @_@

M@v · Dec 1, 2009

I'm happy with Falco's airdodge, roll, and spotdodge

.

Yaaay said:
I personally don't find recovering with her a major problem. She has a very good aerials, which are either fast, have range or move her body, a good evasive second jump and special moves that can help, but should not be abused.

However, that's not my point. I just wonder why they gave her such a bad airdodge, as she doesn't have a broken recovery which always brings her back to the stage safely.

Why was Samus nerfed to hell? Why did game and watch get good? Why are there so many grab combos/chains in this game? That airdodge question falls into that category.

Dark.Pch · Dec 1, 2009

M@v said:
Peach's airdodge isnt THAT bad... I mean whenever I'm playing as peach I use it and don't have much issue.

Use it at high levels of play aginst Smart players that know the match up. That is not pretty. I use that as a mindgame, not a move to evade.

If there is one thing I can't stand about this character, it is her air dodge. While other cry and whine about how she can't kill well or about her match ups, I wanna flame sakuria about this crap of an air dodge. Makes me sick.

But because it is bad, it becomes good. Thats why I said I use it as a mindgame.

Ripple · Dec 1, 2009

I wish ness and lucas didn't have 10 extra penalty frames after grab release

PokemonMasterIRL · Dec 1, 2009

I wish PT didnt have fatigue and that jigglypuff wasnt trash in this game.

DMG · Dec 1, 2009

Penalty frames? I call it extra preparedness.

Edit: ^^^^^ I wish Peach had those Chichis like in that avatar of yours.

Red Arremer · Dec 1, 2009

Yaaay said:
EDIT: What do you guys mean with unfinished? I thought it was just badly balanced @_@

As said, from a developer's point of view, this game is unfinished, by the meaning of the word.
There's so many glitches, especially when it comes to the characters, it's not even funny anymore.

Some of Ganondorf's moves should've been different (FAir was supposed to autocancel for instance), Falco should've gotten a different Final Smash, Snake's hurtbox was made smaller but the weight and hitboxes stayed the same size as with the original bigger Snake, several chaingrabs and move locks, grab release and footstool chains, stage glitches, dummy data inside of the game files, etc.
Something I've suspected for long and now I'm certain of also is that Meta Knight's laser priority actually is an error as well, and was supposed to be removed.

But due to the deadline (that was already expanded, mind you), they simply didn't have the time to remove and fix all that crap.

Brawl is simply not finished, a buggy Beta version. Which is why it riddles me even more that Sakurai didn't want to release updates over WiFi to fix them.

Meru. · Dec 1, 2009

Totally forgot those. Grab releases. Yeah... The more I think about it, the more the 'unfinished' theory makes sense.

EDIT: @ Onishiba: Wow, really? o_o Kinda shocking. Only thing I can say now is... well, that sucks :l Bleh.
Btw, I've heard the Wii can't patch anything, but I'm not sure if that's true.

PokemonMasterIRL · Dec 1, 2009

DMG said:
Penalty frames? I call it extra preparedness.

Edit: ^^^^^ I wish Peach had those Chichis like in that avatar of yours.

They are fake, look nice, feel weird.

DMG · Dec 1, 2009

Boobs are boobs.

adumbrodeus · Dec 1, 2009

Yaaay said:
Exactly. Sometimes I think: "Were the programmers drunk or something?" I mean...

- Meta Knight...
- Snake's tilts wtf!
- Tripping :l
- Samus, Ganon and Link indeed. Especially Link.
- Mario's utterly useless Dtilt
- Peach's airdodge. Out of all characters, she gets the wost airdodge.
- And much more...

Lol.

Edit: I also agree with Adumbrodeus' edit. I fail to understand why, aren't good fighting games supposed to be competitive-friendly?

Somehow this reminds me of a comic aboud how different amount of being drunk effects OS development, with windows ME being just a little too much.

Also, understand Nintendo wanted a party game with this. But the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Nidtendofreak said:
Actually, it's worse then Ike's Quickdraw.

Quickdraw you can use out of a edge drop -> Second Jump, hit someone and still grab the ledge. You can't do that with Ganon's Up B. lol

Well as a recovery move they both have the same basic issue, edge-techs aside, Ganon has better ledge moves.

Onishiba said:
As said, from a developer's point of view, this game is unfinished, by the meaning of the word.
There's so many glitches, especially when it comes to the characters, it's not even funny anymore.

Some of Ganondorf's moves should've been different (FAir was supposed to autocancel for instance), Falco should've gotten a different Final Smash, Snake's hurtbox was made smaller but the weight and hitboxes stayed the same size as with the original bigger Snake, several chaingrabs and move locks, grab release and footstool chains, stage glitches, dummy data inside of the game files, etc.
Something I've suspected for long and now I'm certain of also is that Meta Knight's laser priority actually is an error as well, and was supposed to be removed.

But due to the deadline (that was already expanded, mind you), they simply didn't have the time to remove and fix all that crap.

Brawl is simply not finished, a buggy Beta version. Which is why it riddles me even more that Sakurai didn't want to release updates over WiFi to fix them.

Of course...

Anyway, I think they're just covering their *** for the fact that they can't, the wii is not built to be able to patch games.

Red Arremer · Dec 1, 2009

adumbrodeus said:
Of course...

Anyway, I think they're just covering their *** for the fact that they can't, the wii is not built to be able to patch games.

DLC is available, though, and with, say, a couple of new music tracks or Stage Builder parts (doesn't have to be a new character or something), you could also patch the game. Nothing too much of a hassle.

adumbrodeus · Dec 1, 2009

Onishiba said:
DLC is available, though, and with, say, a couple of new music tracks or Stage Builder parts (doesn't have to be a new character or something), you could also patch the game. Nothing too much of a hassle.

I remember remember exactly why, but I believe it has something to do with the Wii's architecture, they can't really use DLC to patch a game.

edit: here's the article.

Red Arremer · Dec 1, 2009

adumbrodeus said:
I remember remember exactly why, but I believe it has something to do with the Wii's architecture, they can't really use DLC to patch a game.

edit: here's the article.

Interesting... but DLC patches games, too, as it adds new features and alters the menu etc., or is the DLC on games already existant, just locked? :<

.Marik · Dec 1, 2009

You guys do know the developers had to rush Brawl in order to meet strict marketing deadlines?

They already got an extension one time, it was futile to ask again.

Anyways, Link has a better recovery than Ganondorf. Link's UpB provides some sort of protection from the hitboxes his sword provides, and there's Zair grabbing the ledge to make the recovery more unpredictable.

Usually, with a double jump, Link can recover just fine. The horizontal distance it provides, however, is undeniably mediocre and this leads to gimps.

Ganondorf can easily be spiked or gimped performing his UpB. A Uair will sometimes protect you, or if you -don't- get read like a book and you manage to latch on to the opponent during invincibility frames of his UpB, and then follow it up with a Fair or Uair, something along those lines.

orange/xd · Dec 1, 2009

M@rik said:
You guys do know the developers had to rush Brawl in order to meet strict marketing deadlines?

They already got an extension one time, it was futile to ask again.

Anyways, Link has a better recovery than Ganondorf. Link's UpB provides some sort of protection from the hitboxes his sword provides, and there's Zair grabbing the ledge to make the recovery more unpredictable.

Usually, with a double jump, Link can recover just fine. The horizontal distance it provides, however, is undeniably mediocre and this leads to gimps.

Ganondorf can easily be spiked or gimped performing his UpB. A Uair will sometimes protect you, or if you -don't- get read like a book and you manage to latch on to the opponent during invincibility frames of his UpB, and then follow it up with a Fair or Uair, something along those lines.

No. Link falls a lot faster than Ganondorf. Ganon's UpB also can attack them if they get in the way, and if he does, he can use his UpB again. Link can't. I've found it retardedly easy to spike Link out of his recovery. To top it off, Link has a horrible ledge sweetspot and has a habit of barely not making it. (like a Wolf aiming straight up with UpB) Ganondorf's is still horrible, but Link's is without a doubt the worst recovery in the game.

IMO, Ganondorf's isn't even the second worst.

DMG · Dec 1, 2009

Link can do more to stop people from hitting him/edgeguarding him though. Ganondorf can't throw projectiles/attempt to get lucky and bomb jump/zair. That and as someone mentioned earlier, people can PURPOSEFULLY take Ganon's Upb and then Spike/edgeguard him and Ganon is guaranteed to die at that point. Not many characters can take Link's Upb on purpose, stop him from simultaneously reaching the edge while also hitting him in a way that kills or nearly kills him.

Ripple · Dec 1, 2009

orange/xd said:
No. Link falls a lot faster than Ganondorf. Ganon's UpB also can attack them if they get in the way, and if he does, he can use his UpB again. Link can't. I've found it retardedly easy to spike Link out of his recovery. To top it off, Link has a horrible ledge sweetspot and has a habit of barely not making it. (like a Wolf aiming straight up with UpB) Ganondorf's is still horrible, but Link's is without a doubt the worst recovery in the game.

IMO, Ganondorf's isn't even the second worst.

link can throw a bomb, boomerang, or arrow at you to stop you from gimping him. Link can protect himself. Ganon can not.

link also can just hold on to a bomb and let it explode to gain more height

.Marik · Dec 1, 2009

orange/xd said:
No. Link falls a lot faster than Ganondorf.

Fast-fall speed can help characters recover due to the momentum, and may mess up the timing of edgeguarders.

Ganon's UpB also can attack them if they get in the way, and if he does, he can use his UpB again. Link can't.

Good point. Ganondorf is still pretty easy to read though, just avoid attacking him for those particular frames of his UpB.

I've found it retardedly easy to spike Link out of his recovery. To top it off, Link has a horrible ledge sweetspot and has a habit of barely not making it. (like a Wolf aiming straight up with UpB) Ganondorf's is still horrible.

Zair does help tremendously, but if you're solely talking about UpB, then I agree.

IMO, Ganondorf's isn't even the second worst.

It's either worse or second worse, but Ness and Lucas have pretty bad recoveries also.

Kuraudo · Dec 1, 2009

Sonic has matches that allow him to compete with some of the higher/top tier characters. Big example imo is Diddy Kong, whom you can use his own banana game against, and reduce the use of it thanks to the mobility of the Spin Dash/Spin Charge going right over any bananas, not to mention the ease in rolling over a banana and picking it up with a quick and difficult to punish dash attack. Take away Diddy's Banana game and you just have a character with a good FAir, a quick DAir spike and an FSmash you can SDI out of. A good Sonic can render Diddy's banana game severely limited. On top of that, Sonic isn't as pressured against Falco's laser game for how quickly he closes that gap, and anyone who makes the mistake of buffering the CG wrong gets a spring to the face and unlike other quick characters like Marth who leave themselves vulnerable if they use a Dolphin Slash to disrupt someone, Sonic has one of the best options. The only real flaw is that he has to come down sometime, but he can air dodge/do anything at that point.

Snake is ridiculously heavy, and like DK can usually be read into a good 50%+ combo from the get go with a good UThrow > UThrow > UAir > BAir, and if you read them even better or they don't DI correctly, another BAir, then wait for them to come back down with a DSmash. that's way more then 50% right there. Sonic has great options when used correctly. And unlike most other lower tier'd characters, against the likes of Meta Knight, it's not Sonic's worst nightmare either.

Of course, this is all my opinion, and no one has to take my word for anything I say in regards to the tier list discussion. But seeing as how others gave their input when I asked, I thought I might as well give my own.

Sonic is definitely a Middle Tier character, and whether he goes up or down, so long as he does not leave C-Tier, then I say he's justified.

Pokémon Trainer is definitely a Mid-Tier character though. It's difficult to consistently use and master all 3 characters. That's like having 3 equally usable mains without one being better then the other in your hands. Tough as heck man. Ivysaur simply gets shafted with it's terrible recovery. If he had a good recovery and his Vine Whip worked differently, then Ivysaur would actually be a good character.

Nidtendofreak · Dec 1, 2009

Well as a recovery move they both have the same basic issue, edge-techs aside, Ganon has better ledge moves.

I'd say say recovery wise QD > Ganon's Up B, but barely. When Dark Dive is hit, he gets sent flying backwards. When QD is AD/Swings, Ike still falls forwards.

Edge-techs I would give the edge to Ike, but barely. Both can use all of their aerials to get on stage (Even Ike's Nair from a ledgehop, but it's hard to time), both can use their Up B to punish those by the edge, but aether can drag people off the stage and spike them. QD can be used to fly onto a distance platform on the other side of the stage, while Flame Choke doesn't have the distance and trades it for a suicide move. Counter and Wizard Foot can both be used to punished onstage edgeguarding attempts, but Counter is quicker over all (and less cooldown, which is better in this scenario then a faster start up). Eruption is remotely usable here, Warlock Punch is lol.

Link's recovery > Ganondorf's recovery as well.

orange/xd · Dec 1, 2009

Ness's is prob. top 5 worst, Lucas's is around average. (unless your playing some scrub who can't Zap Jump/Magnet Pull).

Falling fast hurts Link. If you knock him far with a fsmash or something and don't kill him, he'll fall too far down and can't use a boomeang/arrow/pull a bomb without dying, and can only upB.

they're both pretty bad, doesn't really matter

This is worst recoveries IMO:

1. Link
2. Ivysaur
3. Ganon
4. Ness
5. Olimar/Captain falcon

deepseadiva · Dec 1, 2009

I'd say Wolf, Ike, and the entire PT package all have a worse recovery than Ness.

TLMSheikant · Dec 1, 2009

Worst recoveries:

1. Ganon
2. Ivysaur
3. Link
4. Olimar
5. Ness

Ganon can be hit/spiked out of upb. Doesnt gain much distance. He also falls fast which also hinders his recovery.

Ivysaur comes 2nd imo, his tether is so easy to edgehog >_>. Of course he has some tools like fair and razor leaf to get them off the ledge with, but those are easy to avoid in general. Ivy offstage= lost stock like 95% of the time.

Link comes 3rd, his upb doesnt give him much height and he falls fast making it even worse. The good thing is he at least has zair to mix it up and bombs/boomer to stop ledgeguarders. His upb has decent priority too.

Olimar comes in 4th, mainly because he has good multi hit moves to hit edgehoggers off the edge like upair/nair. He can also fair or throw a purple pikmin if he has one. He's also floaty and with good DI he'll generally make it back to the stage if he still has his second jump. To make things better for Oli, he also has whistle.

Ness comes in 5th, he has a DJ that gives him a lot of distance and he can rising fair along with it to make it somewhat hard to gimp him at times. Of course, if he is forced to use upb while ur edgeguarding him its a lost stock but that wont always happen.
All that is imo of course.

adumbrodeus · Dec 1, 2009

Onishiba said:
Interesting... but DLC patches games, too, as it adds new features and alters the menu etc., or is the DLC on games already existant, just locked? :<

It already exists, just is locked. Support must be hard-coded into the game otherwise it can't be added.

M@rik said:
You guys do know the developers had to rush Brawl in order to meet strict marketing deadlines?

They already got an extension one time, it was futile to ask again.

Screw marketing.

Regardless, it's no excuse for their stupid architecture for the wii.

Nidtendofreak said:
I'd say say recovery wise QD > Ganon's Up B, but barely. When Dark Dive is hit, he gets sent flying backwards. When QD is AD/Swings, Ike still falls forwards.

But he can dark dive again.

The problem is that it's unsafe on hit because it lacks hitstun, allowing a number of characters to hit him out of it, serveral of which can reliably gimp him.

Plus, he can use it below the stage, at angles that are harder to hit opponents with.

Thus, Dark dive is a better recovery move then QD.

Of course, this is pointless because overall Ike's recovery (as bad as it is) destroys Ganon's.

Edge-techs I would give the edge to Ike, but barely. Both can use all of their aerials to get on stage (Even Ike's Nair from a ledgehop, but it's hard to time), both can use their Up B to punish those by the edge, but aether can drag people off the stage and spike them. QD can be used to fly onto a distance platform on the other side of the stage, while Flame Choke doesn't have the distance and trades it for a suicide move. Counter and Wizard Foot can both be used to punished onstage edgeguarding attempts, but Counter is quicker over all (and less cooldown, which is better in this scenario then a faster start up). Eruption is remotely usable here, Warlock Punch is lol.

I think you misunderstand, I meant better then Dark dive, not better then Ike.

RICO lag alone makes Ganon's ledge game worse then Ike's.

WhatIsRaizen? · Dec 1, 2009

orange/xd said:
Ness's is prob. top 5 worst, Lucas's is around average. (unless your playing some scrub who can't Zap Jump/Magnet Pull).

Falling fast hurts Link. If you knock him far with a fsmash or something and don't kill him, he'll fall too far down and can't use a boomeang/arrow/pull a bomb without dying, and can only upB.

they're both pretty bad, doesn't really matter

This is worst recoveries IMO:

1. Link
2. Ivysaur
3. Ganon
4. Ness
5. Olimar/Captain falcon

falcon's recovery isn't all that bad

ganon on the other hand gets ***** just for recovering

if you compare falcon's up + b with Ganon's, falcon takes the cake for more safer moves (raptor spike > ganoncide and falcon's up + b > ganon's.) Basically all their B moves in general.

Link's recovery is better than Ivysaur lol.. ivy saur has razer leave and a thether. but link has arrows/gale/bombs, and a up + B along witth a tether.

TheReflexWonder · Dec 1, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
Ivysaur comes 2nd imo, his tether is so easy to edgehog >_>. Of course he has some tools like fair and razor leaf to get them off the ledge with, but those are easy to avoid in general. Ivy offstage= lost stock like 95% of the time.

Just DI up when you get hit and Back-Air while recovering. You can use Razor Leaf to turn yourself around if you need to.

M@v · Dec 1, 2009

Dark.Pch said:
Use it at high levels of play aginst Smart players that know the match up. That is not pretty. I use that as a mindgame, not a move to evade.

If there is one thing I can't stand about this character, it is her air dodge. While other cry and whine about how she can't kill well or about her match ups, I wanna flame sakuria about this crap of an air dodge. Makes me sick.

But because it is bad, it becomes good. Thats why I said I use it as a mindgame.

Yup. I'll SH fair to firebird with falco, they will never see it coming xD.

Seriously though I see your point. Using moves that your opponent doesnt expect in _______ situation can really throw someone off.

.Marik · Dec 1, 2009

DMG said:
Link can do more to stop people from hitting him/edgeguarding him though. Ganondorf can't throw projectiles/attempt to get lucky and bomb jump/zair. That and as someone mentioned earlier, people can PURPOSEFULLY take Ganon's Upb and then Spike/edgeguard him and Ganon is guaranteed to die at that point. Not many characters can take Link's Upb on purpose, stop him from simultaneously reaching the edge while also hitting him in a way that kills or nearly kills him.

Ripple said:
link can throw a bomb, boomerang, or arrow at you to stop you from gimping him. Link can protect himself. Ganon can not.

link also can just hold on to a bomb and let it explode to gain more height

What they said.

Zair, UpB hitboxes, situational projectiles that can help Link recover and prevent edgeguarders from buffering their attacks right, and Boomerang actually provides Link with sufficient momentum to recover, it practically glides Link across open spaces if he's in the centre of the tornado animation that occurs.

That, and another jump plus UpB? Should be more than enough to recover 90% of the time.

Ganondorf has none of that whatsoever, he has to hope the opponent doesn't completely read him.

DanGR · Dec 1, 2009

When I play Pokemon Trainer I usually find it more difficult to get back to the stage with Charizard than with Ivy. He seems to have more options for getting people off the ledge. I dunno. *shrugs*

And Olimar's recovery isn't worse than Ganon's or Link's LOL.

WhatIsRaizen? · Dec 1, 2009

recoveries from worst to best imo

1.) ganon
2.) ivysaur
3.) ike
4.) link
5.) ness
6.) olimar

I think falcon is around 10ish

M@v · Dec 1, 2009

Ivysaur> link at recovery. At least Ivysaurs tether is as long as olimar's/ZSS's

WhatIsRaizen? · Dec 1, 2009

M@v said:
Ivysaur> link at recovery. At least Ivysaurs tether is as long as olimar's/ZSS's

yeah but all it takes is one edgehog to stop it. it's not much different than link's tether range either.

Nidtendofreak · Dec 1, 2009

Ike > Link. He doesn't fall like a freaking rock, and aether has more range then Link's Up B

Ike > Olimar. More range with aether, and you can't just edgehog and watch Ike fall helplessly. You actually have to time the thing. That, and 1 medicore option + 1 crappy option for recovery > 1 crappy option.

Ike > Ness. Maybe. They're close recovery wise, though personal bias says Ike>Ness, lol.

Chuee · Dec 1, 2009

Lucas' recovery is top 10 in the game.
Only about 2 characters can actually gimp him.

Kofu · Dec 1, 2009

I personally feel that, distance-wise, Ganondorf's recovery > Link's recovery.

Safety-wise, however, Link's recovery > Ganondorf's recovery.

zeldspazz · Dec 1, 2009

You cant even see Zelda when she recovers! Thats like mega hax yo! She's gotta have one of the best no hitting her when shes recovering

Too bad Metahax took that idea too

/sarcasm

Nidtendofreak · Dec 1, 2009

Chuee said:
Lucas' recovery is top 10 in the game.
Only about 2 characters can actually gimp him.

Nah, it's not that good. Range wise it is, but not overall when you add in gimpability.

More then 2 characters can gimp him. Anyone with a really long, disjointed hitbox or some other trait can gimp him. Lucas is similar to Luigi in this his recovery has many steps, but they are all fairly readable. Not to the same extent at Luigi's obviously, but you get the idea.

MK (duh)
Wario (duh)
Pit (arrow spam)
Marth (fair)
Ike (fair)
Ness (Up B to your Up B, or to just push you away further. Or Down B IIRC to your Up B)
Lucas (Ditto Matches FTL)

Those are off the top of my head. It wouldn't surprise me if Samus (Zair + Homing missiles) or ROB (Laser, Gyro, Fair, Nair) didn't have much trouble gimping Lucas either.

stingers · Dec 1, 2009

lol rob can gimp lucas. maybe not top lucases but i've never played galeon or pink fresh (only 2 i know

) so I don't know. but the lucases i've played i've had no trouble gimpin

-Mars- · Dec 1, 2009

Sheik laughs at Lucas offstage.

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