At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

well...since you seem to be releasing the changelist bit-by-bit and cryptically (aka better than nothing), whats the rationale for changing Kirby's bthrow so that he cant jump out of it? I saw in Veril's thread that it had a pretty massive frame advantage.

EDIT: ok, i guess its not that cryptic after all

Didnt change Kirby's B throw at all. If it was changed it must be a glitch in the coding. Will look into it.

However if you look at Zaf's looking at TL. He found some changes and got answers for why they were changed, but he also found something brand new about TL that I didnt change and wouldnt have found if he wasnt experimenting.

No changelist is basically showing players a deeper side to their mains.

Falco400 said:

or you just suck

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Wow, you flamed a 13 year old boy. You must be the coolest guy ever!

Anyway, I read in another thread that cape was trying to get away from encouraging a certain play style with character changes. I can't help, but feel that Bowser is tremendously campy. Am I alone in this feeling?

no i would say that bowser is a pretty defensive (campy maybe depending how you look at it) character. look at his approach options:

fair - while pretty good spaced, I assume most characters can drop their shield and do something to pressure you, or simply roll away. Either way, your not keeping much pressure up with this move because of how slow bowser moves.

side b - yes this is good against shields, but slow as well with little range. a good mixup but is easily beat by many attacks.

I don't think nair will cancel fast enough to be a good pressuring move. Bair/dair suffer same fate.

So aerial approaches are pretty bad and his ground speed leaves something to be desired. He's clunky to turn around etc.

Here's where he is good: pokes and defense. His fortress out of shield might be one of the best, doing a good amount of damage each time (18% is it?). Also punishing, but to a lesser extent, is his grabs, slightly nerfed now, but still excellent to get people offstage or a grab release for setups. Your opponents will be very careful with their spacing. This is where good poke games come in. Make use of your quick ftilt, dtilt, uptilt, firebreath, etc to keep them out. Bowser is one of the best in this department.

Nothing wrong with having a defensive character. We all hate them from brawl, but this game isn't meant to be 100% offense for every character, that would be stale. We want various playstyles all throughout the game for a unique experience.

It froze on me when i tried to get to the vs screen >_____>

No no no no...(more)

Since shine is near useless and very risky in the air then common sense tells you not to use it. Why does it need a JC again?

The Cape said:

Leaf: Math built RC1 and gameplay built GSH2.

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That makes absolutely no sense. All I'm getting from that statement is that you're the one stroking your own ego at this point, since otherwise you wouldn't keep trying to shove this in our faces. You know just as well as I do that all the changes made before the GSH sets were tested. Some more than others. There was never a point where we just threw stuff in a set completely untested. Even RC1 ness was in public circulation for quite a while before being put in the set, but no one gave the necessary feedback to fix it. You're just trying to capitalize on a couple mistakes now so you can put your own name behind this set, rather than that of a group.

I dont give a **** if the data is "right" or not. If it works then thats good enough for me.

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Well obviously you do care, otherwise GSH2 wouldn't have had fixed shieldstun. You don't want to admit it, but if it weren't for me mentioning that, you would still have the stupidly high shieldstun from GSH1, because you couldn't tell the difference. Neither could a lot of people. The number of people you had fooled into thinking there was less shieldstun is quite remarkable, and really shows the power of placebo. The fact it was obviously not intentional really shows you need to stop acting so high and mighty.

Since you love math so much why dont you get started on that changelist that everyone wants since you are one of the few members of the ever disappearing (and more and more laughable) WBR.

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If you can't be arsed to keep a changelist for your own set, why should I do it for you?

Do you know why your set is successful? Because you contacted the same people to help you that the WBR was planning on admitting in the first place. You essentially contacted WBR members before they were WBR, and then claim to be "superior" to the WBR because of that. GSH1 popped up right around the time we were talking about how we were going to reorganize everything, which meant admitting new members soon as well. Of course, with all the confusion surrounding GSH1, which you posted in the very thread meant to talk about organization, and having to contact JV in order to do what we needed to do, we got stalled again, leaving us with the present situation. You call the WBR a "joke," when it was really just understaffed. You took the would-be recruits, essentially leaving us with two WBRs. The difference is, the new recruits are the ones we needed the input from the most, thus letting you put out a quality product, even if you didn't bother documenting what you actually did.

So go ahead. Keep praising yourself for this set. This set that already had its entire foundation built for it. You've taken something already mostly developed that still had some rough spots, smoothed them out, and called it a new product. And now as a result, we now have two WBRs. That's not productive, and if you would just drop some of the hostility, we could put into place some of the organization that has been so desperately needed for so long, and actually get somewhere. Because face it, the lack of organization is what got us here in the first place, and you're certainly less organized than the WBR is or was. At the stages of this project we've hit, organization is more important than ever, so this next step is simply the one that makes sense.

Edit: *waits for 20 page post from Leaf in response*

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Cute.

leafgreen386 said:

Even RC1 ness was in public circulation for quite a while before being put in the set, but no one gave the necessary feedback to fix it.

Yet you all ignored my continued rants of Ness, video evidence, and even the opinions of the players that I had played against with him. Basically saying that I didnt know what I was talking about (got that one quite a bit) and I thrashed a tournament which is the most thorough way to prove the point I could think of.

You're just trying to capitalize on a couple mistakes now so you can put your own name behind this set, rather than that of a group.

I Constantly say that I worked with a large group of people whom I credit on continued occasions. I also state (and mean) that I dont give two ****s who gets credit for this project as long as its good. I refuse to put my name on another piece of **** like RC1 ever again.

Well obviously you do care, otherwise GSH2 wouldn't have had fixed shieldstun.

I never originally coded the sheildstun, nor fixed it. But you just like to troll **** as is, so you can look like you are smart and ****.

If you can't be arsed to keep a changelist for your own set, why should I do it for you?

The lack of a changelist is already proving my point where players are finding new uses for moves of their character on moves that were changed or not changed instead of just making assumptions off a **** changelist. Not to mention, people like you and Chibo care so much about a changelist then why the **** dont you make a proper one (since you couldnt even do that for RC1).

Do you know why your set is successful? Because you contacted the same people to help you that the WBR was planning on admitting in the first place. You essentially contacted WBR members before they were WBR, and then claim to be "superior" to the WBR because of that.

I spoke to the same people who asked me to stick around when I wanted to quit the WBR in the first place because they knew I could fix things. Also, here it is weeks later and you actually have less members in the WBR than before. Most of the people dont want to be associated with the name of WBR anymore than I do anymore as its tainted and a joke.

and if you would just drop some of the hostility

Said multiple times and even displayed it multiple times. I am not hostile to those who are not hostile to me. Instead of sending a PM or saying something in the WBR you come into a public thread and throw around an air of superiority and troll the hard work that people put forth to fix the mess that was RC1. So why dont you step back and stop being an arrogant **** for a second and actually present your useful information in a way that doesnt make you look like a complete douche and bring you more disrespect?

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Man I ****ing hate this project


Also, the fresh **** that I brought to the table was goals that were stuck to and organization with direction. Thats what this project needed. The ideas and the set were built by the community, I just organized the talent to do so.

****, this is fun to watch.

BadGuy said:

****, this is fun to watch.

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Who wants popcorn, I'm buyin'!

I notice that some people want moves changed but the other people said no. Therefore they don't play the latest set because of the lack of a single change...

ok, i have a question: why was the ICs dthrow changed and what am i supposed to follow up with? its a nerf that makes sopo a LOT worse. now, i talked to VietG and he mentioned a future update that mould remove nana's ability to grab but buff popo considerably so SoPo would still be able to put up a real fight.

i like this idea, but i'd really like to see the dthrow CG returned. the dthrow cg at least has to end at the ledge (assuming you remove nana's ability to grab) so i don't really see any reason why it was changed...

Is there honestly a single person out there who will willing play 5.0 after experiencing gsh2? What's the point in delaying the progress of gsh2? The sooner this gets polished and complete, the sooner a real tourney scene can emerge. You're delaying the inevitable.

So I hope no one reads this as spam, but I hate the name of this set. Like totally despise it. Can we rename it? For the love of god please. If RC1 did something right at least the name rolled off the tongue better then GSH2.

EDIT: I assume the holidays Badguy. And the eventual WBR restructuring.

EDIT2: GSH2 means 'GET SEXY HERE'. That pretty much sums up this set. I take back the renaming proposal.

It's a beta... who cares what it is named?

How about we call it "Brawl+" cuz the game is practically done. Just some tinkers here and some tinkers there.

Wario's Iasa is so Weird... but its all good, and Ike feels all around faster, but a little bit weaker and his new counter is like Gem (Truly,truly, truly outrageous) and truth your avatar is epic

I'm going to post this here because TSON's thread was closed. I wanted to voice my opinion in the renaissance of the WBR which NEEDS to happen ASAP if this game is to become gold (both in versions and in quality.)

I used to be so into Brawl+. I still am, but not in the same way I was earlier. I applied to be a WBR member and in my application I outlined a blatantly scrub post from one of the WBR members. I believe it was Falco400, and I posted saying, "if you guys let me in, I'll use my extensive tournament experience to try and find posts like this that aren't competitive". I was denied. So what. That didn't exactly hurt my love for the game that was so clearly in its infancy. In fact, the infancy compelled me to provide input. What hurt my interest and motivation to post in the nightly threads were the massive flame wars from WBR members and e-friends of WBR members alike that banded together to make ******** posts that consisted 95% of ":V" and other ridiculous bull**** that just made this game so laughable. It really became too much. They would then go to the IRC and chat about people, their stupid ideas, and remain for the most part, people with zero competitive experience. Oh, and more ":V".

And then the Ness thing happened.

I picked up Ness one night and realized he was great. He was a legitimately great character with a lot of potential and "metagame". I posted, I showed how d-tilt was a great move, I made videos, I posted some more. I was beating people who were great at B+ with my Ness because he was a great character and in the right hands, was capable of winning. He was viable. Then everyone started playing him. Then everyone started buffing him. To the point of no return where it just became ridiculous and every post in the Ness+ thread was just so pathetic. Like, why not just get better? When did changing number values compensate for skill? This is what I had a problem with in B+. Not the fact that it wasn't finished, not the fact that nightlies took too long to come out. What bothered me was the amount of whining that occurred in the character threads which was enough to spur the WBR to make the changes the public wanted. Ness was RUINED in RC1. Him being broken was enough to make me quit Brawl+ until he was nerfed back, but then he still got buffed. Like wow.

I would show my friends B+ who would call it very sloppy in some areas and I asked them to give it a chance - cut it some slack, it'll be ironed out soon enough. Well, it hasn't. Don't take that the wrong way. The WBR has done a great job of getting the game to the point where we have tournaments for a game more balanced than Melee and Brawl and I don't want to downplay that. I just want to see:

a) Less elitism

b) Less stifling of ideas

c) Open minds

d) An invite-only, read-only Workshop Backroom.

In conclusion, I like Brawl+. I want it to succeed. But for that to happen, the WBR needs to reform. Not just friends of friends and people who joined it out of the fact that they had coding ability at the outset of the project.

Before this thread spirals down. The goal of the new WBR is clear:

shanus said:

Alright, I'm going to speak for Yeroc in a quick and concise manner, but I'm hoping I capture his goals correctly.

The WBR as it is currently, is largely flawed. We all know its a mess, and want to best fix it to
1. optimize efficiency of changes of b+ with knowledgeable tourney players
AND
2. open up the WBR to beyond just B+ for people making significant contributions

The goal would be as follows:

Complete restructuring of the WBR system. Most players will be removed / re-assigned into "buckets" so to say. These buckets would consist of balancers who would be required to have significant tournament experience, and coders, who would have strength in PSA or ASM.

The ideal system would work as follows which has been something dantarion has been working on. A group of players can create changelist "tickets" on a wiki based system which can be discussed and decided upon. It is not yet decided if this system would be open or closed to the community, but I feel a weekly publication of the discussed changes would definitely be within reason. From there, these "coding tickets" get handed off to the coders who generate them into substantiated change for the balancers within a reasonable time frame. These tickets would be ranked by the balancers to make sure the most demanding changes get examined first. I've also toyed with the idea of having the WBR coders also be able to take community requests at being able to submit tickets for personal testing. For example, the WBR might have 30 tickets submitted which will have priority. An active community player such as say Thunderhorse, might want to see how Falco's shine works with a precise JC shine frame. He can submit a community ticket where we can supply him with a test pac if we can meet a timeframe so that he can provide constructive criticism backed by data. These community tickets would hopefully follow a "digg.com" type of algorithm to represent the most publicly deemed important changes which can provide valuable insight to the balancer groups as well.

This system would work to solve the following problems:
Every change is documented.
Every change is vetted by tournament experienced players.
All changes would be made clear in intention to the community.

Furthermore, we are hoping to aim to open the WBR to non-Brawl+ groups. Contributions by AA or Thinkaman for BBrawl, or Kryal for the epicness that is Brawlbox should all be recognized and should have full access to hopefully make better use of a private room.


So I'm hoping this new "goal" for the WBR would be feasible. Cape has supplied many of the names of his contacts regarding balancing GSH2, and I know I would love to see such an ironed out system come into play so that we can finalize refining of GSH2 and bring a final Brawl+ release to the public, drama free.

Hope people like the idea.


Also, hopefully applications will online soon, waiting on Yeroc. I would hope to see this new WBR rehouse players who I have frankly worked with for a long time including Cape, JCz, Bionic, and more.

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GunmasterLombardi said:

I notice that some people want moves changed but the other people said no. Therefore they don't play the latest set because of the lack of a single change...

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'Scuse me :v

I don't play the latest set because of a lot of reasons, that's just one of them!

GunmasterLombardi said:

No no no no...(more)

Since shine is near useless and very risky in the air then common sense tells you not to use it. Why does it need a JC again?

Spoiler

< That's the point I'm tryin' to get across 'cause shine doesn't hold Falco back.

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This should help.

The no JC during jump was a mistake on Cape's part, which he intends to fix. The reason why the shine was changed in the first is because Cape (and apparently other players as well) found it to be nigh unpunishable. The details should be explained in the post, but essentially we lengthened the new shine's endlag, but added JC on the exact frame the old shine ended allows it to keep all of its aerial follow-ups on it. Sadly most of the ground follow-ups had to be sacrificed however, and it was made too sluggish for my (and apparently others') tastes.

We have a fix in the works that is outlined in the post which still keeps the same basic premise of it being more punishable, but has a bit more flow to it. Cape gave it the ok, and now we just have to code it. Sadly there's nothing we can do to fix utilt/fsmash/grab/dash attack follow-ups, but alot of people saw the move as op regardless, and Falco still combos like a pro without it.

DeLoRtEd1 said:

I just want to see:

a) Less elitism

b) Less stifling of ideas

c) Open minds

d) An invite-only, read-only Workshop Backroom.

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You forgot:

e) less :V

I'm sick to death of :V. Someone needs to kill that **** thing with a fire.

I'd love for the wbr to actually serve a purpose. Really, I would. When the wbr is "renovated" I'd love to return to it, but as it stands I simply cannot support it. It has become stagnant and fractious to the point of being non-functional.

While I don't often agree with Cape's abrasiveness, after meeting him in person at BTL2 and subsequently having discussed this game in great detail (and being his math slave), I think its safe to say that he really had the exact right combination of traits needed to make this set. The same tools were available to the wbr and Cape, but Cape utilized them far better. He is organized, absolutely dedicated to this game, and willing to compromise with people he respects.

While he may express disdain for data driven balancing, he's certainly made use of my research abilities and understanding of the game mechanics. Cape didn't shoot blindly into the dark with these changes. I don't even know how much time I spent finding airtime, stun values, advantages, etc for him, but unlike with my work in the wbr, I know that my work was purposeful and actually used.

Cape provides something that is not desirable or pleasant in all circumstances (I actually liked my former colleagues) but was absolutely critical for getting the set done: strong, decisive, leadership. The WBR was by its very design made to resist change, which would be desirable if we had actually had a good set to begin with, but was maladaptive to the circumstances in the extreme as witnessed with RC1.


What I'm uncertain about is how the wbr can be restructured to function effectively unless it is really shaken up.

I_Am_Plum said:

Just so we don't make a terrible mistake let's iron out whether this is Neko or the phrase.
I'm game for killing either or, but mistakes can prove to be costly in manners such as this.

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Silly plum, trolls only die if you burn them with fire. Otherwise they get back up with their regeneration, and their leather belts, and their pokemanz.

Crap now I have to say something constructive to avoid an infraction.

Cape, since you are slowly revealing changes, can you tell me if you have done anything to bowser other than nerf his throws? I have tested him but I am not picking up anything else with my spider senses.

I've always been under the belief that Ice Climber grab range was terrible enough to balance out their insane grab techniques. Currently, most of their CGs have been removed. I see no reason to remove the remaining situational techs. However, I'm no IC main. Just some scrub who tried them out for their desynching and CGs after watching a youtube vid.

I'd still like for others to give feedback on Ness in this topic. Where are his mains?

...A lot of Neko bashing going on recently.

His throws were toned down and nair angle was changed.

Nothing else about him was deemed neccesary to change.

ICers D throw was changed due to the fact that it leads to the ICers multi char grabs more often than not. If you have them close you can still do throw > move to grab and stuff as is. That was just my concern.

As for the idea posted above about them, we probably wont do it, but the idea was basically to make Popo a character that anyone could look at and solidly call a mid tier. Then remove Nana's grab and make all of her move's basically assist Popo's combo game. Making them a "top tier" when played right.

Keeps the strats intact with no infinites and makes them deeper to play (since you have to have them both to be at full potential). And Nana is like Lucario's Aura in that sense.

well if you aren't going to do the popo idea then maybe decrease the angle for dthrow. right now its shooting people way in front of me and i can't even follow up efficiently.

though i would like the sopo buffs tbh.

>_> Have you guys looked into changing Lucario's Aura bonus?

Removal of losing/winning aura and lower the start/end of the bonus range by like, 20% or something...is was mentioned ages ago...and I think it might actually be possible now >_>;;
-DD

FrozenHobo:

It is now on my last of tweaks for the final build. Wasnt aware it was that bad. Primary reason was to make it tumble to allow DI and to remove the CGs. I will play with it and see what I can do.

DarkDragoon:
Unsure if its needed?

thanks. actually, on re-reading my post, the angle is fine, but less knockback. maybe half or 2/3 its current distance.

I believe shanus has said that he enjoys some of the unique combos that Aura penalty generates, for whatever that's worth.

Lucario aura leads to a more deep and strategic method of using and fighting Lucario.

Kill him quickly and dont get too far ahead seems to be the winning strats for example.

Well Ness, for the most part, seems unchanged. The biggest change I noticed was the BKB of the dair sourspot being toned down from being dumb.

Though I will say, I still don't like uthrow, as it's still only useful on FFers.

I was also told that it was supposed to have an IASA. Looking through the .pac, I don't see an allow interrupt command, instead, the timer for the final throw collision was changed from 35 frames to 32 frames. Did this actually do anything?

The Cape said:

FrozenHobo:

It is now on my last of tweaks for the final build. Wasnt aware it was that bad. Primary reason was to make it tumble to allow DI and to remove the CGs. I will play with it and see what I can do.

DarkDragoon:
Unsure if its needed?

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SHeLL said:

I believe shanus has said that he enjoys some of the unique combos that Aura penalty generates, for whatever that's worth.

Click to expand...

The Cape said:

Lucario aura leads to a more deep and strategic method of using and fighting Lucario.

Kill him quickly and dont get too far ahead seems to be the winning strats for example.

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*shrug* I thought it was Shanus' idea from the get-go, so I guess not.
:3
-DD

A few more things i noticed about toon link.

If toon link zairs an opponent, then hits them with a dash attack ( either before they hit the ground for the tech, or if they miss the tech) they will go into a forced get up. Essentially, every time i zair now, if i can hit with a dash attack right after, i can run and grab the force get up, giving me a guaranteed grab. After a zair, the same thing can happen if i immediately arrow, to hit them, and this forces them into a forced get up as well. After playing even more, i noticed that if i land a nair with toon link at releatively low percents and then immediately arrow, the same thing applies. The arrow forces the opponent into a forced get up.

Although this has probably been in smash since vbrawl, i was still wondering if i could get an explanation since i dont understand the properties of the dash attack / zair / arrow and as to why it creates forced get ups.

----
Iasa frames for arrows after boomerang is still intact. I find shooting a boomerang grounded into an arrow is a lot slower then sh-ing to shoot the boomerang and then arrow. Is this just me ?

Although i like this new addition to keep toon link using projectiles, I have a small problem with it. If i sh boomerang ( and shoot the boomerang in an upward motion) and then arrow( to cover myself in front), characters who are close enough to me can still punish me. The reason being, they get hit with the arrow, but it has practically no hit stun and they can hit me while i am still in the bow animation.

Toon link can still grab people out of rolls, I do not know if this is intentional or not but if someone rolls near me and is in grab range i can grab them. I dont know if there is a specific time frame for this or it is instant, but is this to be left in the game?

Fsmash is a lot more polished imho. I used to hate it when people could pop right out after the first hit, but this does not seem to be happening as i was able to land it more.

----

Well this is everything i noticed tonight. Usmash feels very werid and is going to take some getting used to. I find it hard to land uairs after usmashes now, but if it balances out the move due to it being so fast and fail-safe then im for it. It will just force me to land u-tilts just as much for follow ups.

Im very satisfied with the current toon link, and this build seems like more of a polish so i guess toon link is on his way to becoming "done"

zaf said:

A few more things i noticed about toon link.



----
Iasa frames for arrows after boomerang is still intact. I find shooting a boomerang grounded into an arrow is a lot slower then sh-ing to shoot the boomerang and then arrow. Is this just me ?

ht out after the first hit, but this does not seem to be happening as i was able to land it more.

----

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I think it's just that grounded boomerange has more startup lag than the aerial boomerang(?).

zaf said:

A few more things i noticed about toon link.

If toon link zairs an opponent, then hits them with a dash attack ( either before they hit the ground for the tech, or if they miss the tech) they will go into a forced get up. Essentially, every time i zair now, if i can hit with a dash attack right after, i can run and grab the force get up, giving me a guaranteed grab. After a zair, the same thing can happen if i immediately arrow, to hit them, and this forces them into a forced get up as well. After playing even more, i noticed that if i land a nair with toon link at releatively low percents and then immediately arrow, the same thing applies. The arrow forces the opponent into a forced get up.

Although this has probably been in smash since vbrawl, i was still wondering if i could get an explanation since i dont understand the properties of the dash attack / zair / arrow and as to why it creates forced get ups.

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Certain attack angles can force a get-up if it connects on someone already in that state (or in vBrawl cause jab locks). Angles 0 (dash attack), special 40 (arrows, and actually almost all moves in vBrawl), and I believe 180 (???) cause this. I'm sure there must be a few more.

zaf said:

Toon link can still grab people out of rolls, I do not know if this is intentional or not but if someone rolls near me and is in grab range i can grab them. I dont know if there is a specific time frame for this or it is instant, but is this to be left in the game?

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The Links' could always do this, except the mechanic behind it isn't very consistent.

VietGeek said:

Certain attack angles can force a get-up if it connects on someone already in that state (or in vBrawl cause jab locks). Angles 0 (dash attack), special 40 (arrows, and actually almost all moves in vBrawl), and I believe 180 (???) cause this. I'm sure there must be a few more.



The Links' could always do this, except the mechanic behind it isn't very consistent.

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alright thanks for the info on both viet.

what do you think of arrow hitstun? Should it be left low since toon link already has 2 other projectiles with good hitstun?


ive been playing more this morning, and i have been noticing a change in toon links zair now.

There are instances were i zair my brother, and rather then get sent to the ground, his character looks like they just jump back. Also, if he short hops and i hit him with the zair before anything he does anything it just pushes him back a little rather then send him to the ground as well

if this was changed so that it doesnt always send to the ground, makes this move useless since there isnt anything to follow up with, the move depends all on the tech

Been playing with this set a bit, liking some of the changes (though I really really want to see Ivy's dair return to its awesome Shanus-induced momentum properties). The main one that confuses me is Ganon's dthrow - while I can understand having it like that to separate it from his uthrow, and the fact that I've seen it be sort of possible to DI on reaction (at least compared to his other throws, gotta check Veril's thread later), and it is manly as all hell and cool near the ledge, I do think his dthrow worked better for him in its old, more Melee-esque state. Dthrow -> jab still seems to be doable as jab is his fastest move, but it removed solid kill methods for him in dthrow -> aerials (bair namely) which helped him a lot to have relatively easy to land killers at high % if he does manage to let them get that high.

And even if it's now distinguishable from uthrow, it's a lot closer to side-B (I'm not sure it's techable, and it doesn't force ledgegrab if you catch them offstage with it, but otherwise it's very similar). Can I get a rough explanation of why it was changed?

First off: Ivy dair was accidentally left out. Will be back in once the set goes official.

Ganon D throw:
Ganon's U throw was changed to be the throw > move throw due to the fact that its advantage on the opponent was overall lower and had a wider range of DI. This removed the almost guaranteed D throw > Fair combo that he has had previously. This was done with characters across the board as well, so dont think its a Ganon specific change :-p

Ganon's current D throw change actually suppliments his sideB game perfectly as he can punish with a grab from block or on a missed move and put the opponent on the ground (techable) to set up for his tech chases with sideBs or dairs or fairs. What it does is give a "close range" option to the sideB tech chases and further assist his game in those aspects.

Make sense?