Official MBR Tier List

Cosmo! · Dec 24, 2009

lol ICG I actually agree w/ your post, the speed Pichu has enables him to be able to actually find openings. except you shouldn't mention Pichu's techs, cause Pichu's tech roll is so small you're basically gonna get techchased forever, when Kirby can escape that

INSANE CARZY GUY · Dec 24, 2009

really kirby's is pretty bad too he isn't as bad but he isn't that good. pichu's tech in spot is really good(faster than fox's tech in place shine). Really i'm not dumb like how some people tell me I am I'm dumb like everyone esle from our limits and the fact we are people.

I have known what i'm talking about since i've been let back in to the melee boards. It's just a lot of times my mind is everywhere at once and i'm trying to type it all out.

Mew2King · Dec 24, 2009

i was the first to say kirby was the worst

and i still think kirby is the worst

it's not that he's bad.... it's just everyone else is BETTER

oh and he's bad

Tamoo · Dec 24, 2009

look, im only gonna say this once, but the bottom of the tier list should look like this

kirby
jiggs
pichu

Thats how good kirby is, and how bad jiggs is

u mad m2k?

adumbrodeus · Dec 24, 2009

In general kirby is overrated, sure his tilts are good, and his bair is ok, but he lacks the speed to actually set them up so he gets murdered.

His throws are also god-awful, which might have otherwise been his saving grace.

Pichu at least can bait things, and follow up well enough to do some damage. Kirby can't get inside AND is hopeless inside.

KAOSTAR · Dec 24, 2009

I dont even care about the tier list below m2. So trivial lol.

Fortress | Sveet · Dec 24, 2009

KAOSTAR said:
I dont even care about the tier list below m2. So trivial lol.

remember when there wasnt anyone below him?

Hostility · Dec 24, 2009

Mew2King said:
Mango and Hbox again won this weekend. Don't give me that exceptional player bull****, Jiggs is mad easy to use, by far the easiest character to win with

This was a really ******** statement, just becasue you're bad at the matchup doesn't mean jiggs is an amazing character, you just haven't figured the character out. You lost to Hbox with fox but then mango beat him WITH FOX. Fox is mango's what, like 4th alt?. Mango has also beaten you with his falco as well, you're a good player and all, but you can say some stupid **** sometimes.

KirbyKaze · Dec 24, 2009

adumbrodeus said:
In general kirby is overrated, sure his tilts are good, and his bair is ok, but he lacks the speed to actually set them up so he gets murdered.

His throws are also god-awful, which might have otherwise been his saving grace.

Pichu at least can bait things, and follow up well enough to do some damage. Kirby can't get inside AND is hopeless inside.

Kirby is better than Pichu inside someone because of his duck and good moves. Kirby just can't get in if the opponent decides to not let him in. Ever. His wavedash is good for his size, his dash dance is usable in close quarters, and he even comes with a bunch of jumps to space his aerials in combat. The trouble is, they can decide to not let him enter combat and just keep running.

Pichu is better at getting in. But, because of how awful his range is, and his distinct lack of anything good, he can't do anything once he does get in, unless it's an extremely inflated example like fast faller on FD, where he can chain grab them. Otherwise his epic damage combo is U-throw --> Nair or something.

If we say Pichu can Nair --> Nair as a combo, I'm going to say that Kirby can punish bad DI just as well with his pseudo-combo moves, Bair, and U-tilt.

Grim Tuesday · Dec 24, 2009

I will restate my point, as one of if not the only Masterhand main, I believe he should be added to the tier list as he is a playable character and is not banned by the recommended tournament ruleset. He fits nicely under Pichu, my reasoning for his position are his Pros and Cons:

Pros
Cannot be grabbed.
Cannot be comboed.
Very high priority (Higher than Brinstar’s lava) on all attacks.
Very powerful attacks.
Has a lot of spikes and metor smashes.
Unaffected by Stale-Move Negation.
Doesn’t suffer from knockback.
Large range.
Attacks greatly pressure shield.
Floats above the ground, so many grounded attacks do not affect him, and small opponents are forced to jump to reach him.
Only has to kill the opponent once to win.
Unpredictable as not many people are used to playing against him.

Cons
All attacks are very predictable.
All attacks have significant starting and/or ending lag.
Most of his attacks don’t work well on some stages.
Cannot use any advanced techniques.
Cannot spotdodge, shield, roll or move to avoid opponent’s attacks.
Not many ways to edgeguard effectively.
Very large target.
Automatically loses due to stalling on Corneria and Princess Peach’s Castle.

His cons far outway his pros.

I recommend we have rulings like follows:
If a freeze is caused by Masterhand, the Masterhand player loses.
If 2 players both want to be Masterhand, then they can decide who gets it through a coin toss, rock paper scissors, etc...
I think we should make it so if a player is using Masterhand, then the other player cannot select Corneria or Peach's Castle (Similar to the ruling reggarding Saffron City and Ness in 64) to be fair.
We could make a limit on the number of tries the Masterhand player gets at performing the glitch. E.g. If you fail at getting the timing right 10 times you just have to use a normaly character.

Opinions?

Ignatius · Dec 24, 2009

Nobody wants to ledge camp a hand for 8 minutes.

DtJ Jungle · Dec 24, 2009

you used princess peaches castle as an example

get out.

KAOSTAR · Dec 24, 2009

Sveet said:
remember when there wasnt anyone below him?

minor details

X1-12 · Dec 24, 2009

Tamoo said:
look, im only gonna say this once, but the bottom of the tier list should look like this

kirby
jiggs
pichu

Thats how good kirby is, and how bad jiggs is

u mad m2k?

you sure you don't mean

kirby
Tamoo's Jiggs
Pichu

??

hehe i joke i joke

Clint_Eastwood · Dec 24, 2009

Mew2King said:
I just want to say that at winterfest this weekend, a few days before it I practiced jiggs with Vidjo for a few hours, and then I 4 stocked Jman's Fox with her Sat morning. He camped me and won like 2/3rds of the games after that but most all of them were last stock and I 2 stokced him on brinstar without planking my first time ever doing that matchup on that stage before. This is better than Hbox did, cuz Jman 3 stokced hbox several times meaning omg i must be the best jiggs now. I continue beating every character then losing to jiggs, and jiggs continues to dominate every big tourney in the US. I JUST picked her up for fun and I have very little experience with her, but I was still able to do this. That's the only match I 4 stokced him in in a really, really long time with any character. That's STUPID. Mango and Hbox again won this weekend. Don't give me that exceptional player bull****, Jiggs is mad easy to use, by far the easiest character to win with, and current Jiggs don't even do the combos they could be using. My jiggs vs Fox does up throw then SH Uair to regrab, then I do up throw pound rest if they DI away, or up throw rest if they dont DI. If they expect the pound to rest they can just DI toward you, but you can trick their DI by doing up throw to SH fair to regrab, then you get a free down throw rest or down throw fair-edge-guard. You can also do up throw to pound to rest or up throw to pound to uair to rest if you grab them near the edge and know they will DI in even if they di not DI the second up throw. No Jiggs even use Down throw to rest yet, which makes them ****ed if they are at the edge cuz the only way to avoid the rest combo is to DI off (don't forget you can just forward smash instead of rest if you want too).

as for jab reset to rest, you can just F smash instead of rest and trick their DI. Hbox did this to mango in tourney he just did jab to f Smash and Mango thought he was gonna rest and he died at like 60% (but with that DI it woulda been like 20%). Jiggs is easy to use, broken, and underrated as hell. If you can't see this by now then.... then well you're just wrong. Btw don't bring up darc cuz he's a lot worse in singles than mango and hbox but STILL does really well. She literally has every tool to win major tourneys and on counterpicks she's just like auto win. Up throw Uair doesn't work on her if you smash DI up the Uair, and up smash is risky because you can block it then jump and rest (same with any Fox smash attack or dash attack). At 30-40% you can dash attack to jab reset to rest, and at 40-70% you can full jump fair then jab reset to rest (a good time to use this is baiting a shield grab after spacing a fair). The character is dumb.

Do you even enjoy this game anymore? All I ever see you post about is how 'broken' a certain character is because you can't beat them. Then you claim that they are the best, and start spewing garbage about how they are super easy to play and that you are going to switch to them.

Wake up. Without Mango, Jiggs would still be trash. I'm guessing all those games you played as Jigglypuff were won by using Mango's strategies anyway... So really, if you did pick up Jiggs you would be accepting that you are an inferior player to people such as Mango and Hbox, because they had the backbone to stick to a character even when they weren't winning tournaments. All you want to do is steal their hard work... pathetic.

If people started winning tournaments with Bowser would you switch to him?

X1-12 · Dec 24, 2009

clint_eastwood said:
do You Even Enjoy This Game Anymore? All I Ever See You Post About Is How 'broken' A Certain Character Is Because You Can't Beat Them. Then You Claim That They Are The Best, And Start Spewing Garbage About How They Are Super Easy To Play And That You Are Going To Switch To Them.

Wake Up. Without Mango, Jiggs Would Still Be Trash. I'm Guessing All Those Games You Played As Jigglypuff Were Won By Using Mango's Strategies Anyway... So Really, If You Did Pick Up Jiggs You Would Be Accepting That You Are An Inferior Player To People Such As Mango And Hbox, Because They Had The Backbone To Stick To A Character Even When They Weren't Winning Tournaments. All You Want To Do Is Steal Their Hard Work... Pathetic.

If People Started Winning Tournaments With Bowser Would You Switch To Him?

Lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol

KAOSTAR · Dec 24, 2009

Its not like M2k has been using marth sheik and fox for years.

He just switches up all the time

SonuvaBeach · Dec 24, 2009

Clint_Eastwood said:
Do you even enjoy this game anymore? All I ever see you post about is how 'broken' a certain character is because you can't beat them. Then you claim that they are the best, and start spewing garbage about how they are super easy to play and that you are going to switch to them.

Wake up. Without Mango, Jiggs would still be trash. I'm guessing all those games you played as Jigglypuff were won by using Mango's strategies anyway... So really, if you did pick up Jiggs you would be accepting that you are an inferior player to people such as Mango and Hbox, because they had the backbone to stick to a character even when they weren't winning tournaments. All you want to do is steal their hard work... pathetic.

If people started winning tournaments with Bowser would you switch to him?

The last character m2k said was best was falco and he definitely didn't say he was easy, or that he was switching to him. And falco and jiggs are broken. where you at son!?

You should "wake up." Hbox would main jiggs either way and would still be ****** everyone. It isn't only mango. Mango's jiggs doesn't use strategies that are game changing. In fact, I would say he uses spacing tactics that other jiggs don't and shouldn't do, but him being mango solves the issue.

Yes, mango has backbone for maining falco and falcon against everyone and never uses jiggs...wth? And m2k likes to win, with whatever character does so. If you don't like it, beat him with fox vs his jiggs and show him. It isn't as if he doesn't state his reasoning behind his position

Anyway, jiggs is good. Falco is good. and apparently sheik vs peach isn't winnable, along with marth and falcon vs anyone. I guess winning is only possible with fox, falco and jiggs now

X1-12 said:
Lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol

Seriously lol

MarioMariox2 · Dec 24, 2009

M2K is the new Azen.

INSANE CARZY GUY · Dec 24, 2009

KirbyKaze said:
Kirby is better than Pichu inside someone because of his duck and good moves. Kirby just can't get in if the opponent decides to not let him in. Ever. His wavedash is good for his size, his dash dance is usable in close quarters, and he even comes with a bunch of jumps to space his aerials in combat. The trouble is, they can decide to not let him enter combat and just keep running.

Pichu is better at getting in. But, because of how awful his range is, and his distinct lack of anything good, he can't do anything once he does get in, unless it's an extremely inflated example like fast faller on FD, where he can chain grab them. Otherwise his epic damage combo is U-throw --> Nair or something.

pichu can chain throw and get a fair amount of damage on someone with a grab not a stock unless they are a ffer. kirby is limited to up-tilt which we both know about how great that is to set-up nair nair is a combo i've done it before on m2 in training mode nair up-tilt or smash also works sometimes if your hgoing to pull the di factor in when it really work in matches everyone messes up like in theory puff shouldn't be able to do the bair chains she does.

also up-throw upair dair that's about 6% more not counting his pummel.pichu's nair does 12% how much does kirby's move do when he gets in? pichu gets in easier, more offen, and can rack up more damage. Kirby's best way to get them is to bait them with a rock or something which is pretty easy to predict after they use it once.

kirby is better how? his range isn't as useful as pichu's speed. sooo are you going to pull out the edge gaurd part where you over hype it when one mistake from being edge gaurded by pichu is an easy stock gone. kirby's is better how much I don't know.

pichu wins
grabs
speed
approach
power
combos/damage building(sorry your limits to up-tilts which are hard to set up)
recovery

kirby
duck
tilts
edge gaurd

KAOSTAR · Dec 24, 2009

I just think its sad when characters start attributing their low duck height to reasons why they are better LMAO

null55 · Dec 25, 2009

who cares

besides Kirby is def the worst in the game...

Tamoo · Dec 25, 2009

You have no idea how that low duck screws with ppl

lol at saying who cares and then giving your opinion :s

Nø Ca$h · Dec 25, 2009

yeah kirby has nothing. pichu at least has a half decent shield pressure game. nair behind shield>stuff and his jab is lower than zelda or peaches grab(peach has more OoS options so i guess its only safe on zelda)

kirby doest really have any good aspects.

im on my psp. with a ps3 controller :D

edit: tremor is right mango spaces with fair alot which is much more punishable than bair

INSANE CARZY GUY · Dec 25, 2009

yeah ducks are useful a lot of times it's easier to powersheild laser, avoid some attacks like as pichu I ducked under like 12 bairs in one match vs jigglypuff. Most people use lasers or airs by habit like I don't know how many people do time lasers to hit people ducking.

but yeah being small is uber helpful for pichu a lot of people have problems even hitting him crap he can run under smaus's missles, no camping for you. yeah when i'm messing around with cpus it's crazy how hard it is to SHFFL the knee on pichu dude if he was dding it would bee near impossible. it's just pichu that really hard to hit when he's just standing there because people are used to a timeing of their SHFFLs and junk.

ducks are useful but not game breaking or uber important all the time.

cause i'm a douche today

KirbyKaze said:
kirby continues his slow decline LOL

KAOSTAR · Dec 25, 2009

LunarNOVA said:
im on my psp. with a ps3 controller :D

How is that by the way?

Grim Tuesday · Dec 25, 2009

Ignatius said:
Nobody wants to ledge camp a hand for 8 minutes.

Wether you want to ledge camp a hand or not is irrelevant, his position on the tier list won't change that. He is currently tournament legal, so you MAY have to ledge camp in a tournament wether he is on the tier list or not.

Scumfever said:
you used princess peaches castle as an example

get out.

You sir are an idiot. I think you'll find that Peach's Castle isn't always banned, it is a counterpick in some tournaments. It was worth mentioning.

I say he should be on the list because he is a playable character, it cannot be denied. He should be either banned or acknowleged as a full character.

Fortress | Sveet · Dec 25, 2009

GrimTuesday said:
Wether you want to ledge camp a hand or not is irrelevant, his position on the tier list won't change that. He is currently tournament legal, so you MAY have to ledge camp in a tournament wether he is on the tier list or not.

I say he should be on the list because he is a playable character, it cannot be denied. He should be either banned or acknowleged as a full character.

ive actually seen tournaments that have specifically banned him.........

adumbrodeus · Dec 25, 2009

Ignatius said:
Nobody wants to ledge camp a hand for 8 minutes.

Why would you have to ledge camp the master hand?

For almost all of his attacks:

spotdodge = done.

If he get a stock off, he wins, but like that will ever happen.

And honestly, he's far worse then brawl Ganondorf, I see no problem with letting people throw away matches by picking the master hand.

KAOSTAR · Dec 25, 2009

Guys quit being ****ing stupid. Playing as masterHand would completely ruin the game. Its shouldnt be allowed by any technicalities.

It shouldnt be allowed because technically you never selected a character in despite of being in control of one when the match starts.

Most of the time the stage striking method is done from the stage select screen and then on to the match, so you cant pick him anyway.

If the game freezes you automatically lose.

There is no reason to acknowledge him as a playable character since you never select him and therefore cannot proceed to the match by any standard rule set.

adumbrodeus-WTF you cant take a stock off the master hand. And why would you stand there and spot dodge for 8 minutes when that doesnt even prevent you from taking damage. If you are going to camp do it right. Get a projectile and shoot him and get ahead in percent. Then ledge hop so you are invincible.

dch111 · Dec 25, 2009

adumbrodeus said:
Why would you have to ledge camp the master hand?

For almost all of his attacks:

spotdodge = done.

If you get a stock off, you win.

You can't take stocks off masterhand.

And I wouldn't want to spot dodge for 8 minutes either. Regardless of what you do to avoid his attacks, matches vs masterhand would be the most boring time-consuming matches ever.

KAOSTAR · Dec 25, 2009

GRIM-YOUR SIG "I"S WAYYY 222 ****ing BIG!!!!!

They shouldnt even be considered because they unnecessarily Stall tournaments for 8 minutes.

I say we drop the subject. Make another thread for master hand gayness. Youll just get a bunch of idiots arguing.

anyone wanting to pick master hand may as well forfeit the match. Or just not come to the ****ing tourney.

adumbrodeus · Dec 25, 2009

dch111 said:
You can't take stocks off masterhand.

And I wouldn't want to spot dodge for 8 minutes either. Regardless of what you do to avoid his attacks, matches vs masterhand would be the most boring time-consuming matches ever.

Reverse that actually.

(edit will reflect it)

If HE gets a stock off, he wins, but the most likely end you get one hit and dodge his pathetic attacks for 8 minutes.

Honestly, I find it amusing that we're considering banning the most legitimately horrible character in the game, he deserves an epic fail on the tierlist.

Still, 7 or 8 minutes fighting the master hand is I think something we should be prepared to do.

I doubt many people will play him though, he's just far too bad for people to consider legitimately playing him in a tournament.

Remember, he's legitimately got 0-100 match-ups against the ENTIRE cast, I figure if people wanna let me coast through the brackets, why not let them?

KAOSTAR said:
adumbrodeus-WTF you cant take a stock off the master hand. And why would you stand there and spot dodge for 8 minutes when that doesnt even prevent you from taking damage. If you are going to camp do it right. Get a projectile and shoot him and get ahead in percent. Then ledge hop so you are invincible.

I misworded, I meant since it's impossible for you to take a stock off him, if he gets a stock off, you lose automatically, but it's never gonna happen.

And by spot-dodge I meant on reaction, his attacks are pathetically easy to beat by spot-dodging on reaction because of their crazy lead-time.

Getting ahead by percent was assumed.

Honestly, do we really need to discuss strategy against the master hand, all of his attacks have at least falcon's f-smash in start-time (and only if you're right on top of him), and most make warlock punch seem fast. Just dodge, he's totally irrelevant, and anybody who doesn't see a player trying to use the master hand as, "oh, free win", needs to get a lot better at the game or get their head checked out.

If people wanna be stupid and play master hand, let them, I'll take my EZ mode win and laugh to the bank.

KAOSTAR · Dec 26, 2009

You cant spot dodge Lasers. They are continuous. You cant use master hand in tourney because he is only accessible through a glitch. You dont actually select him as a character.

How can you argue for master hand to be a playable character, yet discussing strategies for beating him are irrelevant.

I put this on everything, if somebody tried to pick master hand against me I would unplug their controller and tell the TO they are stalling.

Its dumb, and a waste of time. If ppl are going to pick MH they shouldnt even come. Id rather just have a bye and not have to waste 8 minutes everytime some adolescent thinks he's a smartass.

KirbyKaze · Dec 26, 2009

uGH.

10ughs.

Anth0ny · Dec 26, 2009

I think Master Hand should be allowed.

If you SERIOUSLY think you could win a match with him, go right ahead. He's auto-loss against anyone who isn't semi-********.

KAOSTAR · Dec 26, 2009

KirbyKaze said:
Nair behind someone's shield or behind their CC with Pichu compromises his attack speed. In turn, that makes his already-abysmal priority in move vs move even worse because you're taking away the speed on his moves. Kirby can at least space his moves or use his duck so he can be outside shield grab, CC, or whatever. Moreover, a lot of his moves multi-hit so he can cross-up that way while still having an active hitbox defending him.

Pichu actually can't zone people with moves unless they're directly above him or also Pichu.

I dont understand what you mean nairing behind a shield compromises his attack speed

KirbyKaze · Dec 26, 2009

I had a moment of intense stupid.

For some reason I was thinking of Nairing low on a shield to increase usable stun time.

The point was that Kirby can do the same cross-up crap, can actually space his moves at a range where he's just too far to hit, can poke shields in duck and not fear rising aerials out of shield / shield grab / other stuff against some characters, can also do the "hit low with heavy aerial on shield", and even comes with a pair of grabs that aren't completely transparent.

Pichu can either Nair to go behind someone, or Nair low on someone. If he does anything else, he's probably in shield-grab position or whatever because of how crap his range is.

This crap range, in turn, makes his ability to zone with aerials really, really bad because everything he does will probably lose if they have any semblance of spacing at all.

KAOSTAR · Dec 26, 2009

oh lol. That explains why I didnt understand.

INSANE CARZY GUY · Dec 26, 2009

CRAP

pichu can approach better right. CCing nair isn't a problem for pichu If he goes a little farther he doesn't have just a choice people don't always sheild or cc(less than sheilding). however kirby can't choose go farther or not kirby will get CCed or sheild grabbed(I think only half of the grabs can get kirby maybe more or less and some people like smaus will just up-B other jump out doing an air attack or up-smash).

by zone I beileve you mean space moves to keep them away or whatever. I argee he can only zone upwards (good thing he is short) but he can still easily avoid attacks and you don't always have to tear down their Wall ,but go around and you have said so your self that pichu can get in better than kirby. Pichu's size,movement and speed let him do this I've slipped in with a wd and up-smashed people before. WHich is pretty funny when people try to wall you.

Holy crap I just thought about pichu and stage control useing up-B. if you don't want to be cornered perfect up-B out. just an idea to write down so I don't forget.

oh crap I read your first post thing sorry i'll redo in a min.

I argee with pichu zoning he can't space attacks really other than some rare cases like upair to outrange most dairs and thunder predicts when they are high

But question how will kirby get them in that good of a spot? kirby can't really out speed or projectile anyone like pichu. people normally don't stand their waiting for kirby is fair them(the worms) kirby isn't going to corner them unless he has falco's lasers or something. And if he gets to the sheild what's everyone going to do that works?

fox-grab, up-smash, SHFFL
marth-fair, reverse up-B
sheik-up-smash
falco-SHFFL, up-smash
peach-nair FC
falcon-
puff-grab, fair
ice climbers-grab grab grab grab grab grab
samus-up-B
mario- grab i've heard nair out of sheild is good so that's a maybe
gannon-dair
DK-I doubt it but up-B I really doubt it's fast enough
link-
young-link-up-B can hit kirby ducking
pikachu-poor grab range and up-smash (worse than pichu's so yeah)
roy-
zedla-
G&W-he may be able to grab
ness-poor grab maybe DJC fair
yoshi- you can't sheild stab so he may just light sheild and be knocked to far away
bowser-up-B
m2-
pichu-grab
kirby- grab

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