justaway12
Smash Master
You know, Status effects don't always happen, burning from fire isn't guaranteed and how can she "shake things off", if shes frozen in suspended animation?
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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10
- Thread starter WhatIsRaizen?
- Start date
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
Okay, next MU.
LOSER'S ROUND 5
Vs.
Current Match-Up:
THE MASKED STRANGER Vs. THE YOUNG SWORDSMAN
Metaknight Vs. Roy
Vs.
Loser's Round 5, Match 1.
Overall Results
Wins +5:
Wins +4:
, , ,
Wins +3:
Wins +2:
, , , , , ,
Wins +1:
, :mewtwo:,
Neutral:
, , , ,
Loss -1:
, , , , , 
, 
ichu:, ,
Loss -2:
,
Loss -3:
, 
, ,
Loss -4:
,
Loss -5:
,
LOSER'S ROUND 5
Current Match-Up:
THE MASKED STRANGER Vs. THE YOUNG SWORDSMAN
Metaknight Vs. Roy
Vs. Loser's Round 5, Match 1.
Overall Results
Wins +5:
Wins +4:
, , , Wins +3:
Wins +2:
, , , , , , Wins +1:
, :mewtwo:, Neutral:
, , , , Loss -1:
, , , , , , ichu:, , Loss -2:
, Loss -3:
, , , Loss -4:
, Loss -5:
, 
Samochan
Smash Master
Well samus is immune poison effects (even without her suit, the toxic air of skyworld doesn't affect her), can unfreeze herself and is also apparently resistant to phazon corrupting and whatever effects.
But it's very doubtful immobilization would work against invincibility in any case imo. And stopwatch still takes like 4 seconds to activate.
But it's very doubtful immobilization would work against invincibility in any case imo. And stopwatch still takes like 4 seconds to activate.
justaway12
Smash Master
Poison and Ice don't matter.
since when did invincible mean immune? Either way, SPM freezes them in time; not immbilizing.
How would she be immune to time stop anyway =/
It obviously has something to do with stopping them in time.
You people do know immbolise means unable to move? That includes the Samus in her suit.
And he dodge those attacks.
since when did invincible mean immune? Either way, SPM freezes them in time; not immbilizing.
How would she be immune to time stop anyway =/
It obviously has something to do with stopping them in time.
You people do know immbolise means unable to move? That includes the Samus in her suit.
And he dodge those attacks.
It doesn't matter how she's frozen (held in place by an opponent, frozen in ice, entangled with entanglers...), the B button gets her out of those situations. Don't ask me how she breaks off if her suit is completely frozen, cuz I have no idea, she just does it.
And I still think that while Samus is invincible, she shouldn't be overcome by anything. It's what invincibility means, "unable to be overcome". Immobilizing her would stop her, and that would be fine if the Speed Booster didn't have invincibility, but she IS invincible so it shouldn't work... The stopwatch would just activate, and Samus would keep on running as if nothing even phazed her, since all it does in the game is afflict the "immobile" status... Which you won't be afflicting on Samus because of her invincibility. And once the stopwatch is out of the way, it's just a matter of time before 5 plasma beam shots/any of her homing attack that penetrate will hit Mario and kill him.
And about Life Shrooms... Yes, it revives you, but Mario is shown falling to the floor, just like when you have no Life Shrooms and you run out of HP. Shouldn't we call it "resurrection", since Mario is dead then revived by the item? If not, then Samus will continue running and shooting Mario with her infinite-ammo, armor-piercing, faster-than-supersonic-speeds (you shoot while in Speed Booster and the shots still go faster), rapid-firing Plasma Beam. Hell, once Mario falls down the first time and starts reviving Samus could charge a darkburst directly where his body is laying down on and send him to a dark dimension where the atmosphere will kill him faster than she will. She definitely changes weapons, charges and shoots it faster than what it takes for Mario to revive, that's for sure.
justaway12
Smash Master
Frozen in suspended animation basically means frozen in time, it's really nothing to do with Ice.
I mentioned nothing about knocking her out of invincibility.
I don't think it counts as resurrection, he didn't die in the first place (go to the land of game over) in SPM, you should know what I'm talking about, so I don't think I should exlain what the land of game over means.
You know, the shots won't be easy, if need be he goes in with the Mega Mushroom/Starman and use the stopwatch, transform into Tanuki and infront of her and watch her being knocked out of the speed booster.
Even though he doesn't need to go Starman/Tanuki suit.
I mentioned nothing about knocking her out of invincibility.
I don't think it counts as resurrection, he didn't die in the first place (go to the land of game over) in SPM, you should know what I'm talking about, so I don't think I should exlain what the land of game over means.
You know, the shots won't be easy, if need be he goes in with the Mega Mushroom/Starman and use the stopwatch, transform into Tanuki and infront of her and watch her being knocked out of the speed booster.
Even though he doesn't need to go Starman/Tanuki suit.
Let's see what invincibility means...
What about overcome?
OK, now let's see what subdued means...
So, by these definitions, Samus cannot be stopped from her Speed Booster invincibility, and the stopwatch is attempting to subdue her. This can't happen because Samus can't be subdued, can't be overcome by anything... Which would mean that if you stopped time around the world, the only thing unaffected by that would be Samus if she had her Speed Booster activated.http://www.thefreedictionary.com/subdue
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subduesub·due (sb-d
, -dy
)tr.v. sub·dued, sub·du·ing, sub·dues 1. To conquer and subjugate; vanquish. See Synonyms at defeat.
2. To quiet or bring under control by physical force or persuasion; make tractable.
3. To make less intense or prominent; tone down: subdued my excitement about the upcoming holiday.
4. To bring (land) under cultivation: Farmers subdued the arid lands of Australia.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/SUBDUE
What about overcome?
Well, the definitions are arguing in my favor, apparently. Looks like stopwatch has no effect on Samus while she's in HyperMode or Speed Booster and has some sort of invincibility activated.
justaway12
Smash Master
You seem to be forgetting she is frozen in time, technically the everything is stopped, I was talking about the SPM stopwatch, again being frozen in time, so her suit is too.
You know, the samus inside the suit isn't invincibile, I would still say she get's frozen.
You know, the samus inside the suit isn't invincibile, I would still say she get's frozen.
The time-freezing effect would have to bypass her suit, which is integrated into her body. Samus isn't loose inside like Master Chief for example, her suit is so integrated with her that it has to be surgically removed if someone wants to take it apart against her will. Since it is so integrated into her body, I could say that she as a whole possesses the invincibility.
The suic has a small force field around it which is powered by the energy tanks too, which prevents everything from reaching Samus inside her suit until her energy tanks are depleted. Since the force field is part of her suit, then the force field is also invincible, meaning that the stopwatch would have no way of getting to the Samus inside (which should be invincible as well, since Samus as a whole is the same person in her games, and apart from story mechanics the inside of the suit never gets affected until the energy tanks are depleted).
In SPM, does the stopwatch stop EVERYTHING? Or just the enemies? Does the water stop rushing, clouds stop moving, NPCs stand still, or does it stop any timers from going off? Are there unaffected enemies sometimes? If not, then all it does is immobilize. And even if it stops time, Samus can't be subdued/overcome by time-stopping since she is invincible... Which makes it so nothing at all can stop her/affect her/control her.
The suic has a small force field around it which is powered by the energy tanks too, which prevents everything from reaching Samus inside her suit until her energy tanks are depleted. Since the force field is part of her suit, then the force field is also invincible, meaning that the stopwatch would have no way of getting to the Samus inside (which should be invincible as well, since Samus as a whole is the same person in her games, and apart from story mechanics the inside of the suit never gets affected until the energy tanks are depleted).
In SPM, does the stopwatch stop EVERYTHING? Or just the enemies? Does the water stop rushing, clouds stop moving, NPCs stand still, or does it stop any timers from going off? Are there unaffected enemies sometimes? If not, then all it does is immobilize. And even if it stops time, Samus can't be subdued/overcome by time-stopping since she is invincible... Which makes it so nothing at all can stop her/affect her/control her.
Samochan
Smash Master
Eh, even if she gets frozen while invincible, she gets frozen into that state. Stuff just doesn't vanish when you're stopped in time because time flow stops and it stops things into that state. Even if she technically cannot run anymore, she hasn't stopped running and her invincibility stays with her in that state. Same goes for hypermode. When she's released, she continues from where she was left off.
justaway12
Smash Master
The SPM stopwatch stops time, I guess I'll just use that.
Besides, Mario isn't trying to overpower her, he isn't attacked or anything, he is rendering her immobile, like you know, what obstcales do, how is that really different than her running into a wall or something? And nothing says she can't be affected by time.
@Samo: I know.
Besides, Mario isn't trying to overpower her, he isn't attacked or anything, he is rendering her immobile, like you know, what obstcales do, how is that really different than her running into a wall or something? And nothing says she can't be affected by time.
@Samo: I know.
And since her Speed Booster has a constant attack coming off (when you touch enemies they get hurt/die in 1 hit), Mario can't touch her or else he will get hurt. In fact that would be GOOD for Samus, since Mario grabbing her would mean that they came in contact, and with her attack still activated Mario will get damaged by an attack that has the potential of (and I think it does) killing everything in one hit.
Mario isn't trying to harm her while she is invincible, but he IS trying to subdue her invincibility. He is trying to find a way of getting past her invincible protection and hurting her afterwards, which is impossible given the direct definition of the words, and what the stopwatch does. She shouldn't be able to be stopped because she is invincible. If she was invulnerable then a stopwatch would obviously work hands down no arguments anywhere, but invincibility? I don't think so. In fact, NOTHING at all does anything to Donkey Kong when using Going Bananas because he's invincible, same with Mario and a Starman, or with KSS Kirby and his Stone ability, or with Tanooki Mario... All of those can't be affected by anything at all because they're invincible. Super Sonic can be knocked back because he is invulnerable, Ganon can be subdued because he is immortal, but Samus just keeps on running no matter what because she is invincible. Nothing stops her. Walls and Powerbomb/other blocks stop Samus because you can't just simply run past the game's limits, or cheat around a limiter with a superpowerful weapon (which is why powerbombs don't break super missile blocks, even though powerbombs kill almost everything in one hit as opposed to super missiles).
Mario isn't trying to harm her while she is invincible, but he IS trying to subdue her invincibility. He is trying to find a way of getting past her invincible protection and hurting her afterwards, which is impossible given the direct definition of the words, and what the stopwatch does. She shouldn't be able to be stopped because she is invincible. If she was invulnerable then a stopwatch would obviously work hands down no arguments anywhere, but invincibility? I don't think so. In fact, NOTHING at all does anything to Donkey Kong when using Going Bananas because he's invincible, same with Mario and a Starman, or with KSS Kirby and his Stone ability, or with Tanooki Mario... All of those can't be affected by anything at all because they're invincible. Super Sonic can be knocked back because he is invulnerable, Ganon can be subdued because he is immortal, but Samus just keeps on running no matter what because she is invincible. Nothing stops her. Walls and Powerbomb/other blocks stop Samus because you can't just simply run past the game's limits, or cheat around a limiter with a superpowerful weapon (which is why powerbombs don't break super missile blocks, even though powerbombs kill almost everything in one hit as opposed to super missiles).
justaway12
Smash Master
You seem to be forgetting about Tanuki.
If she shouldn't be stopped when she is invincible, why does she stop in walls? How is this any different?
If she shouldn't be stopped when she is invincible, why does she stop in walls? How is this any different?
I said Tanooki Mario can stop her, I can't argue with that invincibility; nothing can do anything to Mario at all (except going Tanooki on a falling platform and dying in a pit).
And walls stop Samus because they're inmovable obstacles. Why can Link in OoT lift up humongous pillars with the golden bracelets and throw them amazing distances, but he can only throw pots a certain distance away and not more no matter the bracelet? It's a game limitation or a game mechanic, make of it what you desire. If Samus could bypass walls, she'd be running into the game's "empty zones" where the designers left the map with nothing in it. The game isn't designed to send Samus past where she should go, so the designers put the walls there to prevent you from doing so. I don't want to call it a game mechanic, so I'll just call it... Limitations.
In fact, if she COULD speedboost into the walls and floor, she would as easily speedboost to her final destination if you know where to go, as well as speedboost out of places that are about to explode due to setting off timers... Oh, and Samus would also destroy her ship by speedboosting into it, or destroy doors by speedboosting into them...
It's limitations. She is invincible, but an invincible pebble will never break apart any kind of refined metal. Invincibility isn't ultimate power, just unstoppable/unconquerable/unable to be overcome... Like an ultimate defense..
justaway12
Smash Master
I would say that the stop watch is just like a wall, as you said, invincibillty isn't ultimate power, the stop watch isn't trying to "overcome" her invincibilty, he is just trying to stop her in time, the tanuki suit is whats trying to stop her.
Remember, his TTYD stopwatch and Paper Mario stopwatch, not his Super Paper Mario stop watch, the SPM one just stops enemies in time.
Where's REL when you need him =l
I'm sick of debating this match-up.
Remember, his TTYD stopwatch and Paper Mario stopwatch, not his Super Paper Mario stop watch, the SPM one just stops enemies in time.
Where's REL when you need him =l
I'm sick of debating this match-up.
Actually, it's the other way around. The Tanooki suit isn't doing anything, the stopwatch is trying to stop her. The Tanooki suit is simply standing in her way, it has no effect at all and no influence on anything that Samus does, all it does is stand there. The stopwatch is trying to stop her in time, that's exactly what I mean by 'overcoming' Samus' invincibility. It is trying to stop eveyrthing in time in the hopes of getting Samus to stop as well, where then her invincibility will stop. But Samus is protected by her active invincibility, so the stopwatch should have no effect on her, it shouldn't be allowed to subdue her. It might not be trying to stop her directly, but it IS having a direct effect on her. The Tanooki suit isn't, it's just standing there and Samus is the one who interacts with it when she bumps into it.
Punching the palm of a hand, and slapping a fist... They're both different things, and that's how I see Tanooki suit and Samus. Samus is the fist, and Tanooki is the hand. Tanooki isn't doing anything, it's just there, like the former example. Samus is actually bumping into Tanooki Mario, like the latter. BUT with the stopwatch, we change the scenario a bit... Let's say the stopwatch is a 3rd hand intent on grabbing the fist and holding it in place. Which is interacting with which: Samus with the stopwatch, or the stopwatch with Samus? If the fist was unstoppable/unconquerable/unsubduable/unable to be overcome, then the 3rd hand, no matter what happens, wouldn't be able to stop the punch. Samus is unstoppable/unconquerable/unsubduable/unable to be overcome, so the stopwatch shouldn't have an effect on her.
I don't know how to put it simpler.
Edit: Hell if the stopwatch would be seen as anthrax and the inside of the fist was soft and vulnerable, it still wouldn't be stopped because the invincible outer skin is protecting the soft mushy inside.
Punching the palm of a hand, and slapping a fist... They're both different things, and that's how I see Tanooki suit and Samus. Samus is the fist, and Tanooki is the hand. Tanooki isn't doing anything, it's just there, like the former example. Samus is actually bumping into Tanooki Mario, like the latter. BUT with the stopwatch, we change the scenario a bit... Let's say the stopwatch is a 3rd hand intent on grabbing the fist and holding it in place. Which is interacting with which: Samus with the stopwatch, or the stopwatch with Samus? If the fist was unstoppable/unconquerable/unsubduable/unable to be overcome, then the 3rd hand, no matter what happens, wouldn't be able to stop the punch. Samus is unstoppable/unconquerable/unsubduable/unable to be overcome, so the stopwatch shouldn't have an effect on her.
I don't know how to put it simpler.
Edit: Hell if the stopwatch would be seen as anthrax and the inside of the fist was soft and vulnerable, it still wouldn't be stopped because the invincible outer skin is protecting the soft mushy inside.
justaway12
Smash Master
You know, it won't stop the invincibility, it won't really do anything to it, as you said before even if she gets frozen while invincible, she gets frozen into that state. (the stopwatch, I mean)
Samus wouldn't get frozen in time because she's invincible is what I mean.
And if by some twist of the debate I agree that Samus SHOULD get frozen in time and she retains her invincibility, then her attack is still activated, so Mario grabbing her and coming into contact with her attack would cause him damage, since the attack is so strong it kills all the non-boss enemies in the game in one hit, and does a humongous amount of damage to the bosses. It should at most be seen as a sort-of Zap Tap, or at LEAST do 1hp of damage to Mario if he tries to grab her.
And if by some twist of the debate I agree that Samus SHOULD get frozen in time and she retains her invincibility, then her attack is still activated, so Mario grabbing her and coming into contact with her attack would cause him damage, since the attack is so strong it kills all the non-boss enemies in the game in one hit, and does a humongous amount of damage to the bosses. It should at most be seen as a sort-of Zap Tap, or at LEAST do 1hp of damage to Mario if he tries to grab her.
PowerBomb
Smash Master
I want to know how Mario would get in front of Samus >_>
Speed Booster isn't an offensive tactic, it's a defensive one. Unless the foe has no way to stop her, she's going to run around the opponent while launching whatever beams she has.
Speed Booster isn't an offensive tactic, it's a defensive one. Unless the foe has no way to stop her, she's going to run around the opponent while launching whatever beams she has.
justaway12
Smash Master
It seems you already had agreed before....
Anyway, she would but retain her invinciblity, that does not meet the criteria of being "overcome" as her invincibilty is there and she hasn't been beaten in any way.
Then he would simply go up to her, right infront of her and activate his tanuki suit.
PowerBomb
Smash Master
You do realize Samus is going 1 mile per second and would (probably) be at a great distance from Mario?
justaway12
Smash Master
I belive we had that discussion before during a match-up, I would explain, but I'll wait for REL he explains it much better, I'll try looking for the page though, it was something about more moving really fast.
I thought you were there *shrugs*
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235552&highlight=plumber&page=626
I'm hesitant about posting this, because I don't really want to debate this right now =l
Although, I wouldn't mind a "sure, why not?" reaction.
I bet people would if Mario wasn't facing such a popular character.
I thought you were there *shrugs*
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235552&highlight=plumber&page=626
I'm hesitant about posting this, because I don't really want to debate this right now =l
Although, I wouldn't mind a "sure, why not?" reaction.
I bet people would if Mario wasn't facing such a popular character.
Yeah I had agreed before, but when I read that the match ended up in a draw, I thought about it all a lot more, and now after much thought and theoretical situations where an invincible object is attempted to be stopped, I came to the conclusion that I was wrong before, that Samus shouldn't be stopped. An invincible object cannot be overcome, and an invincible moving object cannot be stopped. The suit is a part of Samus and protects her from outside influences, and when the suit suddenly turns invincible then there is no way anything can reach inside of Samus; no liquids, no solids, no gasses, no electrical/energy forces, nothing... Not even item effects should be allowed to bypass invincibility unless they're designed to bypass invincibility. Samus' invincible suit is protecting her from everything.
You can overcome many things by not 'beating' them. You can overcome a crododile's ability to bite your hand off, but it still has a powerful tail with which to attack you. You can overcome cancer death by means of chemotherapy, but you haven't beaten cancer yet since it will come back in the future; it's genetic. You can overcome a squad of soldiers with a couple of tear gas grenades, but that doesn't mean you beat them... The point is that Samus as a whole can't be stopped because she is invincible. Nowhere in the whole universe of Metroid information does it say "Speed Booster allows you to run at supersonic speeds and makes your suit invincible", it says it "makes you invincible", so Samus as a whole is invincible, therefore unable to be stopped.
justaway12
Smash Master
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE D:<...MY FONT!!! ;_;
THERE IS NO ARTISTIC TASTE IN THIS THREAD D:<
Invincible =/= Unable to be stopped.
Theoretically, if I became invincible right now, and walked into a wall, I won't go through the wall, it's kinda like Heros, where hero stops time, that blond will stop too.
THERE IS NO ARTISTIC TASTE IN THIS THREAD D:<
Invincible =/= Unable to be stopped.
Theoretically, if I became invincible right now, and walked into a wall, I won't go through the wall, it's kinda like Heros, where hero stops time, that blond will stop too.
Samus can't be stopped because her attack is the Speed Booster, which is what gives her the invincibility. The invincibility stops as soon as she stops, and her attack crashes through all enemies and attacks and nothing stops it, not even hazardous atmospheres and temperatures. If Samus is invincible then nothing that forces their effects onto her will affect her, therefore she remains running, which fuels her invincibility, which the invincibility is what's protecting her from external forces. Sort of like a cycle. Unless Samus stops, nothing will be able to overcome her invincibility, and as long as she keeps running, her invincibility remains there. Stopping time forces her to stop running, but how can something force an invincible thing to do their will, in this case a stopwatch's effect? Samus is fueling her own protection by moving, and her protection prevents the item from preventing her from moving.
justaway12
Smash Master
You seem to be repeating yourself and you didn't really couter anything... unless, I'm missing something, in which case, I'd love to learn.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Why let go of the yellow font?
Anyways, current match-up, Metaknight has his Halberd. Roy has what that could reach it? Nothing I know of.
Anyways, current match-up, Metaknight has his Halberd. Roy has what that could reach it? Nothing I know of.
justaway12
Smash Master
I will when I change avatars, besides, normal font is out of the question, this is a war, a war of willpower between Kewkky D:<
I've been meaning to ask something about the Halberd, this is taken from the rules
I've been meaning to ask something about the Halberd, this is taken from the rules
So why does Meta have his crew again?
Samochan
Smash Master
Cause meta can make the crew himself if he has to with his summon lol, and has been shown to operate halberd on his own as well when his crew abandoned him. Besides those crew men do not participate in the actual battle in any way, so they can't exacly count as more arsenal if they don't do anything much than help pilot a ship meta commands (aka directs).
In any case, roy kinda blows. He has sword of seals and is a swordsman... and? Meta has his halberd + his special mach tornado which is super deadly, smaller tornados, very quick, can fly and teleport at will, can boost his quickness and heal himself, excellent swordsman who can swing his sword at mach speeds and even has elemental projectiles. Yea. <_<
In any case, roy kinda blows. He has sword of seals and is a swordsman... and? Meta has his halberd + his special mach tornado which is super deadly, smaller tornados, very quick, can fly and teleport at will, can boost his quickness and heal himself, excellent swordsman who can swing his sword at mach speeds and even has elemental projectiles. Yea. <_<
My argument was my re-statement. I don't know how to put it simpler, like I said. I have no idea how something that can't be overcome by anything, be it earthly, celestial, even time/space-altering (something called invincibility), will be affected by an item that stops time.
Ok, let's look at it from a bigger point of view... Let's say that Samus CAN be stopped in time, but her actions are stopped and all her timers paused until time returns to normality. Mario transformed into Tanooki Mario right in front of Samus, and is waiting for the stopwatch to end.
Now, this is where the scenario tips in Samus' favor... Once the stopwatch runs out and Samus is relieved from the time-stopping, she'll be back to normal, running as if nothing ever happened, then bump into Tanooki Mario and have her invincibility stopped. Samus goes into Hypermode as soon as she bumps starting her invincibility up again while starting to gain speed again to re-start her Speed Booster... According to the length of what it takes for Samus to start her Speed Booster up (around a second and a half), she regains her Speed Booster invincibility and stops her Hypermode BEFORE Mario has a chance to transform back, look for the item, and start it up.
So, we rinse and repeat this situation untill all of Mario's stopwatches are used up, then Samus spams her Plasma Beam/other weapons until Mario is no more. It's all a matter of time before Mario loses.
Ok, let's look at it from a bigger point of view... Let's say that Samus CAN be stopped in time, but her actions are stopped and all her timers paused until time returns to normality. Mario transformed into Tanooki Mario right in front of Samus, and is waiting for the stopwatch to end.
Now, this is where the scenario tips in Samus' favor... Once the stopwatch runs out and Samus is relieved from the time-stopping, she'll be back to normal, running as if nothing ever happened, then bump into Tanooki Mario and have her invincibility stopped. Samus goes into Hypermode as soon as she bumps starting her invincibility up again while starting to gain speed again to re-start her Speed Booster... According to the length of what it takes for Samus to start her Speed Booster up (around a second and a half), she regains her Speed Booster invincibility and stops her Hypermode BEFORE Mario has a chance to transform back, look for the item, and start it up.
So, we rinse and repeat this situation untill all of Mario's stopwatches are used up, then Samus spams her Plasma Beam/other weapons until Mario is no more. It's all a matter of time before Mario loses.
justaway12
Smash Master
I'll edit in my reply later Kewwky, I just have to reply to Samo first, or else I'll lose my train of thought.
@Samo: My argument isn't for Roy winning, just an observation, anyway, summoning is banned as well, if it wasn't I'd argue for Mario to have his Star Spirits, he can summon them, it's an in-game abilty, it's just as legit as Metas and Metas crew are still aiding him, just not directly, I could argue that the star spirits don't really "fight" so it should be alright, but they still aren't allowed.
@Kewkky: Invincibilty =/= omnipotency
Invincibilty means you won't be hurt, not that nothing will affect you, like that heros example, invincibilty does nothing to the time around you anyway, just that you can't get hurt.
You know, Mario has more than one stop watch, the moment she makes impact, Mario will return to normal and use another one before she gets up and uses it.
Actually, he can use a TTYD stop watch instead, with my rebuttal, I don't see why she won't get effected (though I have, admittedly forgot the argument, 1 min), plus, when she trips and then goes into hypermode and takes the time to start up her speedboost, she will get hit by that TTYD stopwatch and all he has to do is wait for her to be consumed.
Alternativly, he could send her to sleep while she's tripping.
EDIT: Yes, that's what I meant, it doesn't effect her, but the time around her.
@Samo: My argument isn't for Roy winning, just an observation, anyway, summoning is banned as well, if it wasn't I'd argue for Mario to have his Star Spirits, he can summon them, it's an in-game abilty, it's just as legit as Metas and Metas crew are still aiding him, just not directly, I could argue that the star spirits don't really "fight" so it should be alright, but they still aren't allowed.
Yes, this whole thing was about Mario. Sue me.
@Kewkky: Invincibilty =/= omnipotency
Invincibilty means you won't be hurt, not that nothing will affect you, like that heros example, invincibilty does nothing to the time around you anyway, just that you can't get hurt.
You know, Mario has more than one stop watch, the moment she makes impact, Mario will return to normal and use another one before she gets up and uses it.
Actually, he can use a TTYD stop watch instead, with my rebuttal, I don't see why she won't get effected (though I have, admittedly forgot the argument, 1 min), plus, when she trips and then goes into hypermode and takes the time to start up her speedboost, she will get hit by that TTYD stopwatch and all he has to do is wait for her to be consumed.
Alternativly, he could send her to sleep while she's tripping.
EDIT: Yes, that's what I meant, it doesn't effect her, but the time around her.
I lol'd.
No problem, I can wait patiently man. I'm playing PS1 emulators while I wait, so take your time.
the king of murder
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That is your opinion. However if ,,holy,, destroys evil how the hell can someone so evil and corrupted like Ganondorf use a sacred power like the Triforce. Heck there are even more storys where villains can use a holy artefact or some kind of holy power but its not canon so who cares.
,,Holy,, doesnt know the difference between good and evil. Sure you can use a sacred weapon like lets say Alondite or Ragnell to smite a robber or a murderer. But someone evil can get those blades and smite all the powerful heroes with it. Also the Black Knight stated it in Radiant Dawn Chapter 9 that his blessed sword Alondite cannot kill someone who is unable to defend themselves. This is why Ena wasnt killed even though you saw her executed by the BK in PoR. This proves that a god blessed weapon doesnt go through anything.
The Master Sword is called a sword that evil may never touch for a reason. Many things are holy for different reasons.
Sacred,Holy=/=not necessary destroying evil itself
And besides as long as you dont give me foolproof evidence everything you say are assumptions.
Zelda=/=anything else
Even if I show you one fiction it wouldnt be canon because it is not Zelda and doesnt go by the same rules.
Well that proves that the Master Sword and the Silver/Light Arrows arent the only sacred weapons in Zelda. There are more ,,holy,, powers in Zelda (not necessary weapons).
And of course Nayrus Love works. Hell if Link uses Nayrus Love he cant take damage no matter what happens as long as it is active. Samus Sunburst,Hyper Sonic´s strenght, Ike´s Aether or Ganon`s Magic Blast ect.. all those powerful attacks wouldnt do **** to Link with Nayru`s Love. But you know that right? So tell me how Nayru´s Love would fail to protect Link even if this attack is a very powerful godlike attack.
The magical sword and holy? I dunno. And seriously when did I say silver isnt holy? Do you even know why the Silver Arrow works?
The creators got their idea from that. Silver harmed evil beings in folklore.
It is very likely that the Silver Arrows are the Light Arrows and therefor are blessed with the power to smite evil.
I agree with you.
Oh well cant argue with that.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Elements aren't RPG only. The Zelda series has Fire, Ice, and Light for elements. Darkness is implied with Light being present. In Metroid Prime, the Wave Beam became attributed with electricity, Ice with ice, and Plasma with fire. In Echoes, Light and Dark were present.
Assumption. If you want to bring up "sin," you're more than welcome to read up on the Old Testament and that whatever was consecrated, or made holy, would make the person who touched it, holy.
Triforce is neither good, nor bad.
Repel v.
1. to drive or force back (an assailant, invader, etc.).
2. to thrust back or away.
3. to resist effectively (an attack, onslaught, etc.).
4. to keep off or out; fail to mix with: Water and oil repel each other.
5. to resist the absorption or passage of (water or other liquid): This coat repels rain.
6. to refuse to have to do with; resist involvement in: to repel temptation.
7. to refuse to accept or admit; reject: to repel a suggestion.
8. to discourage the advances of (a person): He repelled me with his harshness.
9. to cause distaste or aversion in: Their untidy appearance repelled us.
10. to push back or away by a force, as one body acting upon another (opposed to attract ): The north pole of one magnet will repel the north pole of another.
Synonyms:
1. repulse, parry, ward off. 3. withstand, oppose, rebuff. 7. decline, rebuff.
That which is holy is the opposite of evil. Ganondorf, again, is described as evil.
Don't ignore what I said about Silver Arrows. I don't care that they were retconned. The fact of the matter is that there was no "Light Arrows" before, which means that the Silver Arrows had to be something else. They weren't Light Arrows. Again, when silver shined in light, it became whitish. This white reflection represented holiness.As for the silver arrows, we've talked about them. But no one in this list has any (not even the Links), so moot point. Not to mention its possible that the light arrows retconned the silver ones, because we haven't seen silver arrows since ALttP, but we've seen light arrows in multiple games (WW, ST, MC to name a few).
You must have intentionally dismissed symbolism and poetry. But, tell me. If dark is not equivalent to evil, then what is the opposite of dark? And what is light associated with? Does this mean light can be equal to evil?
Only if you like Pokemon. This does not work. Ganondorf does not display a fire or lightning nature. Ganondorf displays darkness, evil, and everything that is opposed to what is good, right, holy, light, virtuous.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
That's a very good point you made.
Ganonsburg
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I know, which is why I said RPG elements (RPG being an adjective for elements, meaning elements from RPGs), because you were trying to bring the mechanics of other games into Zelda.
While Ganon has an association with darkness and also with evil, does not mean that darkness is always evil and that all light will repel evil. Light repels dark, but not necessarily evil.
Look at the Twili. They aren't evil, even though they have an association with shadows.
I only brought it up because you did to show that we can't use real life examples.
I know what's in the OT. It only made a few people (who were already extremely close to God) holy. Only a specific group of people were allowed to even go near holy items (Levites or members of Aaron's family).
As for the Triforce, its still holy, right? It doesn't matter whether its good or bad. I only used that example to show why we couldn't use examples from real life (or other games) to dictate the Zelda Universe.
I didn't, I was just saying its a possibility. But my point was that even though Silver Arrows also kill Ganon, no one except ALttP Link has them, and he's not in this fight.
Unless you're arguing that all silver hurts Ganon, which is silly because we've only seen silver arrows kill him in his games. Not to mention I'm not aware of anyone who carries around silver anyway.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Because they were similar. Fire, Ice, Light. Fire beats Ice, Ice beats Fire, Light beats Dark.
Light repels dark. You turn on the light, the darkness goes away. You turn off the light, it's dark. The symbolism most likely derived from this. Light does not necessarily repel evil?
"You got the Light Arrow! Set it to (C) to power up your arrows. The light of justice will smite evil!"
That reminds me of a Babylonian god named Shamash, the god of the Sun and justice. Why is there justice? Because, light reveals all. Nothing hides from it. Evil is committed in the dark because there is no light to reveal the evil deed.
The Dark Interlopers were banished to the Twilight Realm. They were evil. Then the Twili became a peaceful race. Sounds like twilight to me. What does the word "twilight" mean?
1. the soft, diffused light from the sky when the sun is below the horizon, either from daybreak to sunrise or, more commonly, from sunset to nightfall.
2. the period in the morning or, more commonly, in the evening during which this light prevails.
3. a terminal period, esp. after full development, success, etc.: the twilight of his life.
4. a state of uncertainty, vagueness, or gloom.
In other words, they drift in between light and dark. They could be good (Midna) or bad (Zant).
If it's holy, then the Zelda series needs to be better explained. If by "Sacred" they mean it's from the gods, then it's acceptable. If they mean "holy," then it contradicts itself. It's ironic that in order to get to another universe, you would be basing it off of real life. Video games are based off of reality.
And you're still missing my point. Whatever.I didn't, I was just saying its a possibility. But my point was that even though Silver Arrows also kill Ganon, no one except ALttP Link has them, and he's not in this fight.
Unless you're arguing that all silver hurts Ganon, which is silly because we've only seen silver arrows kill him in his games. Not to mention I'm not aware of anyone who carries around silver anyway.
the king of murder
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I said that darkness is not NECESSARY evil. A lot of fictions like to present the darkness as a corrupt element but that is not always the case. And yes light can be evil as well. 1 example: In YGOGX season 2 a fortuneteller got corrupted by light power that was described as ,,evil,,
and wanted to destroy the earth with the power of light.
Another example is assumption. Death Note: Light Yagami wanted to bring light in his world, and killed the criminals first. But then he killed more and more innocent people, claiming he is god and wanted to create a world full of light. But in the end he turned out to be the corrupted villain. Also his name ,,Light,, could hint on something.
And really there are storys where people have seen the ,,light,, and using the ,,holy power of light,, to kill anyone who isnt one of them or something similar.
The lightning I can maybe understand. BUT he definatly displays fire nature.
1. He has the ToP which goddess is element fire.
2. Whenever Ganondorf is introduced there is always a big fire surrounding him.
3. He also has fire abillitys
4. He is described as the devil of Zelda in the japanese version. Devil´s element is fire mostly.
_clinton
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He has used his power before...just not as much as the other characters...together they could do something significant...but what makes you think that their powers are weak by themselves when you have:
Mario: Super strength, super speed, mastery over fire and other elements, he has shown above average intelligence as well...and is linked with the star spirits
Luigi: Mastery over electricity and other elements, packing far more stamina than his brother...is also linked with the star spirits...and is unaware of being linked to another source of power (he was a match for the chaos heart)
Bowser: A master of black magic ranging from necromancy to random spells of DOOM...also packing tons of strength, speed, and able to resist lava stamina
Peach: Packing a magic ranging from healing to power ups to locking up giant monstrous powers...and is linked with the star spirits
Wario: Herculean strength, bullet speed, and high amounts of stamina...oh...and he made a teleportation device in like 6 seconds at that if anything...
DK: No idea
Some Yoshi: No idea...
Ah no…Ganondorf never brings up any thoughts of time travel in OoT…and why would he know about it? The only reason Link knows about it is by help from Zelda…who again…is the closest one of the 3 to control over time with her part of the triforce…
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/n64/file/197771/20240
See…he never said anything about traveling through time…
He teleports using the OoT…
Why do you think he couldn’t do it when the only reason he was able to do the 3 days thing in the 1st place was because a god of time allowed him to do it?
I mean…do you really think a god who has control over time is limited to only going back 3 days?
IF she is invincible it is only after running a long room in a straight line at best (again…that is BS…because the line has never been repeated anywhere else…and fails to show up again in the same place when they rewrote the booklet for the Wii)
Samus needs around 3x the amount of room of her space ship to activate it…she has trouble turning around at those speeds because the slightest uneven bump in the road seems to cause her to lose it as well…
Ness and Lucas can just fling TK wave after TK wave at her while she would try it…and…how is she going to handle a mental assault? I’m still waiting for that answer to that…plus…I want to know how you think Ness/Lucas couldn’t beat her…when they can make worlds…where is Samus’ creation power? Just wondering?
I still want to know why you think something that breaks through everything and could destroy everything...won't work on Samus' defenses...
I like how you think I’m dumb over something like not agreeing with how you view Zelda…but you are the one who fails to get that fact that because of something like the silver arrows **** Ganondorf…it shows that “holy” works on him…but whatever…
I’m still waiting for why the silver arrows, magical sword, and so on work on him…but other “holy” things won’t for some reason…even when these “holy” things take out a by comparison a bigger threat than Ganondorf…
BTW…how come the light arrows have never been said to repel evil?
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/n64/file/197771/20240
It seems to be more along the line that they work on Ganondorf because they are “holy light” not because they “repel evil”
Even if it is pretty much the same thing…
Of course…here are the scripts for the other two games they appear in…
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/file/469050/23534
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecube/file/920769/46446
So...what is sin regarded as?
BTW…because of terms like invincibility being thrown around in this thread so much…I think I should post this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zE-IZynfKM
Oh and again…I still want to know why you people accept this trope for Samus losing stuff issues:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BagOfSpilling
But you won’t accept that the term invincibility is just a “figure of speech” (what a trope is people) as well commonly used in games:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperStar