The Mario Match-up Index (Updated as of 1/14/10)

CF > Mario? I hear his Utilt beats everything we have.

Matador said:

CF > Mario? I hear his Utilt beats everything we have.

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Just because one move can go through everything, doesnt mean they are better. I highly doubt that Utilt on Mario is as ******** as MK tornado on Luigi. It will end up being highly predictable over time. Also, have you tested this?

Matador said:

CF > Mario? I hear his Utilt beats everything we have.

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Mario>startup lag

Inferno3044 said:

Just because one move can go through everything, doesnt mean they are better. I highly doubt that Utilt on Mario is as ******** as MK tornado on Luigi. It will end up being highly predictable over time. Also, have you tested this?

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If one of his moves beats all of ours, it means something. Not only will it make an effective wall when needed, but his Utilt also kills. CF's specific Utilt is also pretty good at keeping us from returning to the stage from the ledge.

Nothing's as ******** as MK's tornado. Nothing.

Yeah, after awhile, patterns should come from relying on the move too much, but it's still a serious threat. One more beating all of ours means that we must either shield or retreat whenever the move is out. If we're doing any attack or making any approach, all he needs to do is throw one out and it'll eat right through our attack. Every time.

And no, I haven't tested this. I'd heard this from one Falcon main, but just disregarded it as "Mario sucks lololol!". I recently heard this from another Falcon main, however, and he plays a little Mario himself. Figured someone here could clarify.

betterthanbonds9 said:

Mario>startup lag

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CF's Utilt isn't that slow, during startup or with ending lag. It's actually rather quick.

Ummm...Mario's Up B >>>>>> CF's Utilt, fatal flaw in logic?

Judge Judy said:

Ummm...Mario's Up B >>>>>> CF's Utilt, fatal flaw in logic?

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You've tested it?

I've played against several people who are good with Capt Falcon as well as a Capt Falcon main. Falcon's U-tilt doesn't give him the win. It gives him a chance to fight back, at best.

Falcon has a good amount of power moves, but none of them are fast enough to stop a Mario from spamming u-air or b-air at him, and his weight allows him to be comboed pretty heavily. We destroy his Raptor Boost recovery (FLUDD), and his Falcon Dive is a bit more tricky but can be gimped as well.

Falcon doesn't have much going for him. Power moves, decent combo ability, and some tricky grab moves. B-air is a good gimp move to stop Mario from coming back on the stage but that's about it in that department.

Mario has better speed, combos, and gimping. Falcon has better killing, but relies more on mindgames. Seriously, Mario has too many options against him. We don't destroy him though.

I just want to know if we have anything that beats CF's Utilt. Our Utilt...Usmash...w/e.

Falcon's U-tilt is good, but the start-up lag is atrocious. As far as combatting against it, Up-B does beat it. As does fireballs... Cape too.

Never tried B-air against it, though.

HeroMystic said:

Falcon's U-tilt is good, but the start-up lag is atrocious. As far as combatting against it, Up-B does beat it. As does fireballs... Cape too.

Never tried B-air against it, though.

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Poor CF...You turning into ???????? Hero? You're not around much anymore.

Edit: Zomg did I summon him? I didn't mean it XD

Matador said:

Poor CF...You turning into ???????? Hero? You're not around much anymore.

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Eh, I just don't have much to talk about anymore. Plus I've been occupied in other areas of my life. I'm still around though, like a ninja.

How is Ivysaur 55:45, i have always had a hard time fighting him, if possible, could i get some tips

Ketchup17 said:

How is Ivysaur 55:45, i have always had a hard time fighting him, if possible, could i get some tips

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PM me with specifics and I'll help you from there, we also have a Q&A thread as well...and Monk's hotline...

Bumping because I can.

Updated this thread pretty much entirely. Summaries will be written at a later date.

There is one thing though I have to say about all of these even matches: This

The first thing I'd like to discuss is Cape Jump. I've been using it lately, and I believe if Cape Jump is incorporated more, then these match-ups will start to alter.

But yeah, it's late, and I spent like 3 hours updating this. If there are any mistakes let me know, but for now I'm going to bed.

EDIT: Lol, it was almost a full year before I updated this.

i think cape jumping is really only matchup changing agianst sheild grabbers other than that it really won't change matchups at all.

also i skimed thorugh the even matchups i believe diddy and pit are 55:45 in their favor.

Diddy just because of his bannanas and his fair

and pit because with proper recovery we cannot gimp him and it's hard to land fsmash.

vato_break said:

i think cape jumping is really only matchup changing agianst sheild grabbers other than that it really won't change matchups at all.

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Well first, isn't shieldgrabs one of Mario's worst nemesis?

Secondly, think about it. In fact, try it out against a CPU, then try it in a friendly. I learned that Cape Jump is actually very versatile.

First, you're still a moving target, meaning you're not a sitting duck. Second, this is awesome for baiting attacks, since they're going to be reversed.
But here's the pencil pusher though: You cut the start-up time of Cape right off with a Cape Jump. I caped Metaknight's Tornado with this when it was used as a punisher. I can imagine Cape Jump allowing Metaknight's Glide to be caped much more easily as well.

Just use it for alittle while. I think it'll be a nice addition.

Ketchup17 said:

How is Ivysaur 55:45, i have always had a hard time fighting him, if possible, could i get some tips

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Ivysaur is 6/4 -65/35 Mario's favor. You outcamp her, outbox her, combo easily in this matchup, and gimp her extremely easily.

Ivysaur has really bad mobility, so approaching her is only a matter of patience. You can do a lot of silly stuff on her shield because her shieldgrab is terrible, and once she's offstage, a well-placed N-air/Cape/Fludd/F-air = free gimp.

EDIT: whoops that post was from almost a year ago lol.

HeroMystic said:

Well first, isn't shieldgrabs one of Mario's worst nemesis?

Secondly, think about it. In fact, try it out against a CPU, then try it in a friendly. I learned that Cape Jump is actually very versatile.

First, you're still a moving target, meaning you're not a sitting duck. Second, this is awesome for baiting attacks, since they're going to be reversed.
But here's the pencil pusher though: You cut the start-up time of Cape right off with a Cape Jump. I caped Metaknight's Tornado with this when it was used as a punisher. I can imagine Cape Jump allowing Metaknight's Glide to be caped much more easily as well.

Just use it for alittle while. I think it'll be a nice addition.

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Wow Caped Metaknight's Tornado :O, this sounds really legit. I'll try Cape Jumping tonight and see how it goes.

You wanted corrections on mistakes. Here are the ones I saw. The ratios agreed by the smashers are put on here.

Snake: 40:60
G&W: 40:60
Bowser: 60:40
Fox: 50:50

Can you show me how to make and edit one of these? It would be really helpful for my thread.

gaw is waaay harder than snake is, lol

Inferno3044 said:

You wanted corrections on mistakes. Here are the ones I saw. The ratios agreed by the smashers are put on here.

Snake: 40:60
G&W: 40:60
Bowser: 60:40
Fox: 50:50

Can you show me how to make and edit one of these? It would be really helpful for my thread.

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When was it agreed that G&W was 40:60? This was highly debatable for the longest time, but I thought everyone settled for 35:65? I'll edit everything else though.

I didn't make this, Mmac did. But this is quite tedious to update due to all of the color changing and redoing numbers, which is fine with me. I like the time sink.

You'd want to use this though: http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3887/universalmuyb0.png

It's overall easier and all you have to do is apply numbers. I use Photoshop, but Photobucket has an edit option similar to Photoshop.

vato_break said:

gaw is waaay harder than snake is, lol

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Are you saying G&W should stay 35:65 or Snake should stay 45:55?

It was agreed it was 60:40.

But again, I could see it being 65:35, but Game and Watch has a predictable patterns, and is easily telegraphed which is plausible for a 60:40 for Mario.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=256410&page=7

That thread starts the discussion on the GnW match-up.

Thanks Hero for this. I'm gonna use it. Do you have a one in order of the modern tier list? Also can you tell me how to do this on photobucket

Inferno, I could probably use that picture, edit it, and put the pictures in a different order. I have photoshop and Paint dot Net so it will be easy for me. All I need is the modern tier list cus I dont pay attention to teirs. >.>

Looks pretty good. But isn't Sonic mid-tier? And I would call it exactly 50 :50, but this isn't the place for that.

G&W is fundamentally better at shutting down Mario than Snake, as he's a smaller target that covers more area compared to his size, and he's quite good at taking advantage of Mario's relatively small shield size, and he's also much better at edgeguarding and harder to gimp.

There are more solutions to working around Snake's stuff since he's limited to ground moves for the most part, although the real problem with this matchup is Snake's outrageous weight which makes him take forever to kill if you don't gimp him. Usually you will end up trading hits with him a lot outside of some combos here and there, but he survives twice as long.

Sonic is realistically low tier due to his inability to land any KO move before reaction time, and Mario beats him slightly due to having fireballs to control the stage, and due to having significantly more reliable kill moves (mainly Up-smash).

o___O, yo, since when Mario vs Fox is in Mario's favor? lul

mariobrouser said:

Looks pretty good. But isn't Sonic mid-tier?

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The chart is outdated and frankly I don't care enough to look for an updated one. A lot of other character boards are in the same boat too.

Snake and one other character (not sure which) summaries will be done sometime tonight.

EDIT: Also, Cape Jump.

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ said:

o___O, yo, since when Mario vs Fox is in Mario's favor? lul

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I don't think Mario loses to Fox though.

It's at least even. Fox does kill earlier (mainly U-smash and B-air) and he punishes mistakes pretty hard, but the stuff Mario has against him is simply more consistent and better at staying safe. Fox has no safe KO move in general, which makes it very hard for him to deal with conservative play when he wants to get a kill. Mario however does have a safe viable KO move against Fox. Assuming you wait for the shieldgrab that is pretty much inevitably going to happen to Fox when he tries to do something that doesn't hit, Mario's B-throw is very much a viable kill move against the extremely lightweight Fox. It's also significantly harder for Fox to punish Mario's Smashes than the other way around, and crossing Fox over makes his Up-smash out of shield useless as a KO move.

Not a huge deal, but at 0%, if you get a grab, F-throw and regrab before attempting say a D-throw juggle. Alternatively, use U-throw instead of D-throw at low percents since it sets up better on fastfallers.

Fox can combo into usmash at KO percentages.......meaning not only is his KO safe, but it is more viable than Mario's.

Fox can also punish any shielded smash from Mario with IDA.

None of Fox's KO starters are safe at all, so thus he has no safe kill strategies.

Fox actually can get killed for using a Smash on block, while this is much less likely to happen to Mario.

A2ZOMG said:

Sonic is realistically low tier due to his inability to land any KO move before reaction time, and Mario beats him slightly due to having fireballs to control the stage, and due to having significantly more reliable kill moves (mainly Up-smash).

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Well, 5 points don't really matter anyway. And yes, realistically Sonic is low tier, but we won't give up on him (even with some crappy hitboxes and frames on moves). Good thing he's got fanboys/etc.

A2ZOMG said:

G&W is fundamentally better at shutting down Mario than Snake, as he's a smaller target that covers more area compared to his size, and he's quite good at taking advantage of Mario's relatively small shield size, and he's also much better at edgeguarding and harder to gimp.

There are more solutions to working around Snake's stuff since he's limited to ground moves for the most part, although the real problem with this matchup is Snake's outrageous weight which makes him take forever to kill if you don't gimp him. Usually you will end up trading hits with him a lot outside of some combos here and there, but he survives twice as long.

Sonic is realistically low tier due to his inability to land any KO move before reaction time, and Mario beats him slightly due to having fireballs to control the stage, and due to having significantly more reliable kill moves (mainly Up-smash).

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You gotta remember that G&W is freaking light. You will probably kill G&W around 90% with Usmash if not a high ceiling and around 100-110% with Fsmash bucket braking included. Snake on the other hand will probably die around 150% from Fsmash and like 180% from Usmash (note that this isn't Ally DI). Snake has better and safer kill options. G&W kills around the same percent or slightly lower because they are smashes, but they are very slow and can be shielded on reaction. G&W also can't nearly punish as hard as Snake can. One false move with Mario can lead to 15-20% with an ftilt combo or starts a tech chase that isn't hard to follow. You really won't be gimping either of these players due to their very good recoveries and Snake doesn't need to gimp you because he can kill you very easily.

Inferno3044 said:

You gotta remember that G&W is freaking light. You will probably kill G&W around 110% no DI with Usmash if not a high ceiling

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Fixed. This is the KO percent you're going for on FD/BF/SV. You'll only kill him at 90% if you can pull off a sliding Up-smash, which is cool, except also really hard to do and also runs a risk of getting outprioritized by whatever poke G&W does.

and around 100-110% with Fsmash bucket braking included.

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F-smash is nearly impossible to land on G&W, and it's usually very difficult to get into the position where F-smash will kill him before he Bucket Brakes. It's best used to punish him at low percents when he's not going to expect it, but if he's playing to not get killed, there is really no way to land it.

Snake on the other hand will probably die around 150% from Fsmash and like 180% from Usmash (note that this isn't Ally DI).

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No, Snake dies at about 110-120% from Up-angled F-smash with no DI, and about 150% from Up-smash with no DI.

Snake has better and safer kill options.

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G&W actually is the one with safer kill moves, in that his F-air is really gay for Mario to deal with, and his Smashes are all safe on block (at best you can punish his F-smash with F-tilt basically) and more disjointed than Mario's F-smash (besides U-smash which has invulnerability frames, and all of them have less than 15 frames of ending lag).

G&W kills around the same percent or slightly lower because they are smashes, but they are very slow and can be shielded on reaction.

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True, but he does have some traps like N-air/U-air -> Smash that can't be ignored, and not teching his D-throw can lead to a quick death, or even if you tech it, he does have the option of F-airing on techchase.

G&W also can't nearly punish as hard as Snake can. One false move with Mario can lead to 15-20% with an ftilt combo or starts a tech chase that isn't hard to follow. You really won't be gimping either of these players due to their very good recoveries and Snake doesn't need to gimp you because he can kill you very easily.

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G&W does over 13% on most of his aerials, and he has no trouble unstaling them with U-air stalling, which in itself is a trap that can lead to free Up-smashes. Snake can be put into a really bad position if you can grab him near the edge, while the same doesn't really work against G&W.

Ratios edited. Marth and Snake summaries added.

Could use some summaries for Wario and G&W. My knowledge on them isn't too expansive to go into heavy detail.

Game and Watch is a character who naturally exploits many of Mario's weaknesses. He has a lot of range, he kills early, is virtually impossible to gimp, most of his attacks have extremely low ending lag, and his shield pressure game is obnoxiously effective on Mario's rather small shield. The level of difficulty of this matchup is comparable to fighting Marth in Melee, where you constantly have to run around hoping you find an opening in between ridiculously safe, disjointed, and powerful moves.

The goal of the matchup is getting in range and doing as much damage as possible when you get in, as this is the one position where Mario has the advantage. Mario is faster than G&W in close range and can rack up some nice combo damage through U-tilts, U-airs, etc. Jabs and F-tilts are very valuable for gaining control in close range, and if you can hold your shield up, Up-Bing out of shield is a very helpful tactic for punishing G&W's pressure game. Problems start occurring when it comes to KOing G&W. Landing most of Mario's KO moves on G&W is extremely difficult due to his raw disjoints and really low ending lag. Baiting into F-smash doesn't work well on G&W due to his disjoints outprioritizing it, so saving Up-smash until 110% is pretty much your best bet for getting a kill.

As for G&W killing you, his Smashes have fairly slow startup, with his D-smash being the fastest at 15 frames. All of his Smashes, besides U-smash are more disjointed than your attacks and have less than 15 frames of ending lag, which eliminates the possibility of outspacing them with your own F-smash, but you should be extremely careful when above G&W, as his Up-smash has invulnerability frames, and kills extremely early. Watch out for G&W's N-air and U-air, which he may use to trap you into a Smash attack, and watch out for his F-air, which is a fast and powerful KO move and an amazing edgeguard tool. Avoid directly challenging his D-air, which is also capable of killing, and can be used to edgeguard you if you recover low. If you are going to Fireball camp G&W, be careful as you may end up filling his Bucket, which becomes a 2 frame attack that kills you at around 40%, meaning it's only worth fireball camping him if you know you can do it to get a kill.

FLUDD induced hitlag works well on G&W's lingering hitboxes, and can be used to create openings when he does aerials. Unfortunately, this does little to help Mario to work past G&W's D-tilt, a move that beats virtually every conventional approach Mario has. If he spams D-tilt, it's possible to F-smash him between hits, but this tactic will never work if G&W chooses to simply block after D-tilting.

Generally speaking, this is a matchup that requires a lot of baiting. You have to draw out his approach and run circles around him until you have an opportunity to get in range. A very difficult matchup that will require some creativity from you to win.

Gotta ask, has anyone ever tried caping G&W's dtilt?

Does that even work? I haven't tested the precise range of that move, and personally me I would rather attempt to F-smash in case he doesn't know the matchup.

A2ZOMG said:

Fixed. This is the KO percent you're going for on FD/BF/SV. You'll only kill him at 90% if you can pull off a sliding Up-smash, which is cool, except also really hard to do and also runs a risk of getting outprioritized by whatever poke G&W does.

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OK. Maybe 100% from a regular Usmash. Point is it's ridiculously low.

F-smash is nearly impossible to land on G&W, and it's usually very difficult to get into the position where F-smash will kill him before he Bucket Brakes. It's best used to punish him at low percents when he's not going to expect it, but if he's playing to not get killed, there is really no way to land it.

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I've definitely landed Fsmash's. Theory says you won't hit him, but in reality it's possible to hit with.

No, Snake dies at about 110-120% from Up-angled F-smash with no DI, and about 150% from Up-smash with no DI.

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I said with no Ally DI. Ally DI means he will live to like 200%.

G&W actually is the one with safer kill moves, in that his F-air is really gay for Mario to deal with, and his Smashes are all safe on block (at best you can punish his F-smash with F-tilt basically) and more disjointed than Mario's F-smash (besides U-smash which has invulnerability frames, and all of them have less than 15 frames of ending lag).

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Possibly a mess up on my part. My point is that you can shield his smashes on reaction. Although they are safe on block, they shouldn't hit often.

True, but he does have some traps like N-air/U-air -> Smash that can't be ignored, and not teching his D-throw can lead to a quick death, or even if you tech it, he does have the option of F-airing on techchase.

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I have never seen Uair > Usmash as a combo. I have no idea how you get that guarenteed.

G&W does over 13% on most of his aerials, and he has no trouble unstaling them with U-air stalling, which in itself is a trap that can lead to free Up-smashes. Snake can be put into a really bad position if you can grab him near the edge, while the same doesn't really work against G&W.

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You seemed to not get my point on this one. I'm talking about Snake's godly punish game which G&W does not have close to.