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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

h!tboxexplo!ter

Smash Ace
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Apr 9, 2009
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691
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nicaboy, you got a peach? makes the icies alot easier XD
side note: i dont like the name devils choke sounds too much like flame choke and ganon blows in brawl
i think "sheiks dthrow" is as descriptive as they come.

Amsah by the way your techs vs zhus dsmash was some hot vodoo magic. did you smash di down then tech?
 

GOD!

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
778
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Rome, GA
Ya god(i hate calling that since im a christian and your not god) that post wasn't even funny. I fail to see the humor in it.
Alright sorry man. I should probably watch what I post more.

And maybe KK missed the 500 word essay I wrote on sheiks game vs pill rush with citations. I guess I care too much what he thinks.
 

Diakonos

Smash Lord
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Okay Sheik players, please don't tell the Marth boards I'm posting here.

Okay, I'm a pretty good player, so I know the basic crap to do with Sheik, and I can envision what I should be doing most of the time.

What I need to learn is the Sheik specific things. Like, advanced sheik specific things. Example, disjointed hitboxes, what guaranteed combos there are against Fox, some very sheik specific edgeguards that are way underrated etc. I also need to learn to DI out of the uair, but I'll save that. Maybe what move I should do out of downthrow against fox at varying percents.

Do you kinda get what I mean? Like, things about sheik (sheik strats) that only sheik mains would know, or people who play against sheik often. Very specific things are fine (eg. against Falcon if you space the utilt properly, you can almost always do an ftilt without a punish).

Sheik is such a good character, and she has such a good shield, I don't know why I don't use her more often.

Remember, don't tell the Marth boards :(
 

nicaboy

Smash Champion
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channeling death lotus
Oh god its not that serious. I just didn't find it funny but maybe someone else did. Maybe it was the timing since it looked like we were actualy having a discussion lol. Im one of the most care free guys i know. I could care less but was just saying. Any way pocky did make some great points. I guess its a fair exchange since she will probably live a little bit longer on that stage plus as he mentioned you got more recovery options. @ hitbox ya i second peach and fox but they are no where near the level of my sheik. I only feel the need to play sheik. If i lost to an ice climbers i think i might go ganon.
 

Lordydennek

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 4, 2009
Messages
987
Location
Columbia Missouri
Hey boards. Went to hot dickings and got my *** whooped in pools by kels...shiiiiiit. but i played about 9000 friendlies so i learned a lot. Darkatma took second(kels won, big surprise) so sheik was repped.
 

ZoSo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 7, 2003
Messages
2,885
Location
Melee
You can SDI into the ground, a technique otherwise known as crouch cancelling.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
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i think that's ASDI

and to tech it i'm pretty sure you're just supposed to ASDI down (cstick down, or cstick nowhere and control stick down) and tech (L/R)
 

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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NYC
Nihonjin, Plank, whoever, can you give me some specific Marth vs Sheik tips (btw, thank you for the vids Plank).

I have trouble getting around Marth's range and I get pooped on when I try to approach with aerials.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
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how i would explain the sheik vs marth matchup, from my point of view, would be something like this:

marth has this much range [----] and sheik has this much (effective) range [------]. Just stay outside of his range but inside yours and punish him for doing anything.
 

ZoSo

Smash Champion
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You don't want to approach Marth, really. Especially not from the air.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Okay Sheik players, please don't tell the Marth boards I'm posting here.

Okay, I'm a pretty good player, so I know the basic crap to do with Sheik, and I can envision what I should be doing most of the time.

What I need to learn is the Sheik specific things. Like, advanced sheik specific things. Example, disjointed hitboxes, what guaranteed combos there are against Fox, some very sheik specific edgeguards that are way underrated etc. I also need to learn to DI out of the uair, but I'll save that. Maybe what move I should do out of downthrow against fox at varying percents.

Do you kinda get what I mean? Like, things about sheik (sheik strats) that only sheik mains would know, or people who play against sheik often. Very specific things are fine (eg. against Falcon if you space the utilt properly, you can almost always do an ftilt without a punish).

Sheik is such a good character, and she has such a good shield, I don't know why I don't use her more often.

Remember, don't tell the Marth boards :(
just d-throw tech chase up to 40 and dash attack / make up the rest.

or ask KK
 

KirbyKaze

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Nihonjin, Plank, whoever, can you give me some specific Marth vs Sheik tips (btw, thank you for the vids Plank).

I have trouble getting around Marth's range and I get pooped on when I try to approach with aerials.
Approach:

Be grounded. Ideally you don't but your two main approaches as a Sheik, which would amount to Dash Attack and grabbing, work well against Marths. It isn't difficult nor complicated to boost grab Marth in landing lag from retreat Fairs, nor is it an exceptional chore to boost grab him from his dash dancing. Some spacing and timing required, but it's honestly not too strenuous for learning or using.

If Marth is largely airborne and does his Fairs with such perfect spacing that you cannot for the life of you get inside him and attack him, you still have a few options. You can do what Fox does, to a degree, where you stick your active hitbox into his face before his big Fair arc swings down. Unfortunately, this only works on stationary, late, and approaching aerials because Marth's rising retreat aerials will eat this every time. Also, it will fail entirely against grounded Marths unless you're already inside them.

Alternatively, and far more practically, you can crouch cancel the Fairs and work from there. CC F-tilt and D-tilt are effective tools.

Defense:

Needles to make him come to you so his spacing isn't so gosh-darned perfect. From there you can just punish his approaches with dash dance --> whatever. You can also use platforms for mobility far more effectively than he, provided you're not stupid and get yourself trapped on them awkwardly. Waveshielding a lot is also useful because Marths tend to look for grabs and max-range them. If you move constantly, it becomes a pain for them to find that optimum range. Just don't be dumb and trap yourself in your shield.

If they like to D-tilt and run away as a fake approach just run into it and CC it --> dash attack or something, D-tilt won't ever knock you over. Also running into shield so he's not spaced and trying to shield grab it isn't awful either.

Defensively you're mainly just abusing the simple principle that it's harder to be perfect spaced when approaching than it is when you're retreating because making the first committed move is generally bad in this game.

Combos:

If Marth DIs away:

~ Regrab to 40
~ Dash Attack after 30-40
~ Fair after 60

If Marth doesn't DI away:

~ U-tilt or turn around U-tilt to 25
~ Uair after 25
~ U-smash at 70 for the KO on any non-Dreamland stage
~ U-smash for the combo
~ F-tilt *

If Marth doesn't DI away but there's a platform:

~ Waveland regrab
~ Cover 3/4 techs with FJ Dair
~ React and FJ Uair combo
~ React and U-smash on FoD or middle half of the side platforms on YS
~ U-tilt under FoD, YS, or PS
~ Aerials

When Marth DIs away fully horizontally, there is NO REASON AT ALL TO F-TILT EVER UNLESS YOU'RE AT THE EDGE AND ARE PREYING ON HIS BELIEF THAT YOU WILL FAIR IMMEDIATELY. OTHERWISE NEVER F-TILT WHEN THEY DI AWAY FULLY HORIZONTALLY THERE IS ALWAYS A BETTER FOLLOW ALWAYS 100% GUARANTEED.
 

KirbyKaze

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That would constitute him not DIing away and therefore everything listed under "If Marth doesn't DI away:" would work.

There's a funny DI up and away, I think, that dodges the U-tilt at low percents but is vulnerable to Uairs after the generic 25-30 or so.

On that I can't figure out what to do. I'm thinking just F-tilt --> whatever might work but idk it feels sloppy and bad. I'm sure there's something better to do, too. Maybe I need to walk forward more or something idk.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Okay Sheik players, please don't tell the Marth boards I'm posting here.
For some reason I'm reminded of some "normal" guy going into a weird club (or bar, or whatever) in those cliché, terrible movies and looking all discreet. And then someone saying "Come here often?" and that awkward pause.

I digress.

Okay, I'm a pretty good player, so I know the basic crap to do with Sheik, and I can envision what I should be doing most of the time.
Good.

What I need to learn is the Sheik specific things. Like, advanced sheik specific things. Example, disjointed hitboxes, what guaranteed combos there are against Fox, some very sheik specific edgeguards that are way underrated etc. I also need to learn to DI out of the uair, but I'll save that. Maybe what move I should do out of downthrow against fox at varying percents.
Hitboxes:

Bair is ultra-disjointed at her extended leg but the rest of the hitbox sucks for Sheik standard. It actually loses to other high-priority moves and sometimes without even trading. The nerve of them.

Nair is awkward, don't use it. If you do use it, remember that it has no priority except below and above the front leg, kind of, and behind the hind leg. There is no horizontal priority so to speak of, so if you're beating moves with it, the culprit is likely the speed difference; frame 3 is fast.

Fair starts at her head and around her head. Then it becomes an arm.

D-tilt goes under everything somehow. D-smash has a frame of invincibility in the startup. F-tilt is slower than you think when you're actually playing Sheik because the disjointed part of the hitbox works like a Marth hitbox in that it drags. Only it's not attached to a sword either.

How to combo Fox:

Comboing Fox sucks. Unless he leaps into your U-tilt or something, nothing actually works on him at low percent. Mercifully, he can be tech chased. You're mainly just trying to link anything to grab or grab in isolation and then go from there.

From 0 - 31 you can D-throw tech chase and everything will work in terms of guaranteed gayness. Jab resets work up to 31. If he SDIs out then oh poopy but the ASDI Jab crap doesn't kick in and give him the option to roll wakeup or attack wakeup until 32.

So basically just react to the tech in place, boost grab the rolls, and Jab reset the non-techs.

32 onwards is the same, only you then have to deal with attack wakeup, roll wakeup and react a bit faster overall because of them. Still nothing that can't be managed. If your F-tilt is doing 7% (ie. it's not staled to 6%) you can F-tilt on non-tech and launch them in stun. If your F-tilt is staled (even just once to 6%) you'll just lift them off the ground and they'll be in neutral position and that's not useful at all.

On attack wakeups, you can U-smash OoS if you like.

At about 35 - 40 it becomes a good idea to dash attack and just tech chase that way. Remember to keep your distance so you can dash attack them when they DI away and tech in place if you intend to just spam dash attacks. Otherwise you will have to regrab at close quarters. Or F-tilt. Or D-smash. D-smash is sometimes unexpected and will go unteched because they will try to tech something else, in which case D-smash combos to more D-smash. Somewhat effective on grounded opponents, but situational.

At 45 - 50 Dash Attack is better than grab in every way except Dash Attack can be ground teched. It will also combo into U-tilt if they don't DI away at that point.

There was some U-throw gimmick I discussed earlier in this thread but I don't feel like dredging it up.

Covering tech in place or non-tech you can either react with regrab, D-smash, fresh F-tilt, dash away dash back in dash attack, or predict either and U-smash or whatever.

If they tech to the edge, I'm finding D-smash more consistent than Dash Attack on good opponents because of DI away. Often you don't get a Fair. Grab or D-smash near the edge seems better than Dash Attack if they know to DI away. Otherwise Dash Attack --> follow is obviously better.

Do you kinda get what I mean? Like, things about sheik (sheik strats) that only sheik mains would know, or people who play against sheik often. Very specific things are fine (eg. against Falcon if you space the utilt properly, you can almost always do an ftilt without a punish).
If Falcon DIs anywhere but away when you D-throw, U-tilt is a natural combo. You can also combo D-throw Dash Attack on him at like 120% if he DIs away.

D-throw regrab > D-throw F-tilt at low percents on DI away against characters like Marth and the Marios.

On Luigi, Samus, Jigglypuff you can always combo D-throw Uair on any DI. But you need speed out of the throw and good timing. You can, however, legitimately combo a bunch of moves this way and be really gay.

Needle --> grab is largely a gimmick. Don't spam it. It is effective in moderation but usually you can find better means of procuring a grab.

If you ever have the option of comboing into grab as opposed to comboing into a tilt, unless the opponent has no jump the grab will almost always provide a bigger payoff. Even then, sometimes I'd grab anyway because the extra percent or whatever will setup an easier edgeguard or I can guarantee a familiar edgeguard situation.

Crouching max-ranged grabs is good.

Sheik's throw combos are almost as good as 0-60 + Finisher chain throws.

Sheik is such a good character, and she has such a good shield, I don't know why I don't use her more often.
Because she's taboo.

Remember, don't tell the Marth boards :(
Hey stranger, come here often?

can't you still usmash if they do the up&away DI?
Yes. But people are slow and nobody will ever learn how to do stuff quickly and precisely out of throw, ever.

DIing up does nothing.
Up + Away would be like, slight DI away or something. I phrased it bad.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
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I lol'd at all the misbelief on the last few pages of this thread.
 

Nihonjin

Striving 4 Perfection
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:laugh: @ All the Sheik-Marth guides..

No aerials vs Marth? Only approach from the ground with grabs and dash attacks?

lol, you guys are going to be clueless on what to do if you ever play PAL...:laugh:
 

gm jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
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Reading/Cambridge, UK
Was thinking the same. You NSCT sheiks should consider getting a copy of PAL and try to play without the Dthrow of the gods. Sheik has other good stuff too.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
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why bother though :laugh:

it'd be basically learning to play suboptimally

edit: and I personally have been playing a bit of PAL recently... it's fun in its own way, but it's certainly not making my ntsc sheik any better
 

nicaboy

Smash Champion
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Sheik isn't taboo. Its just that there isn't as many good sheik mains in comparison to fox falco marth and peach mains. There might be like a handful of good sheiks. Although there were quite a high amount of sheik mains who made it into bracket at pound 4. Also amsah if you would please answer my question on the ice climbers match up. That be cool :). Oh and lol at kk sig.
 

KirbyKaze

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:laugh: @ All the Sheik-Marth guides..

No aerials vs Marth? Only approach from the ground with grabs and dash attacks?

lol, you guys are going to be clueless on what to do if you ever play PAL...:laugh:
You are free to disagree but I really don't feel aerials are that good as an approach against Marth unless you're already close to him or he's also airborne.
 

Nihonjin

Striving 4 Perfection
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Sheik isn't taboo. Its just that there isn't as many good sheik mains in comparison to fox falco marth and peach mains. There might be like a handful of good sheiks. Although there were quite a high amount of sheik mains who made it into bracket at pound 4. Also amsah if you would please answer my question on the ice climbers match up. That be cool :). Oh and lol at kk sig.
I haven't played Chu, so I can't say for sure, but I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be. Just don't try to grab them (until Nana dies) and don't dsmash out of habit or you'll get grabbed.

In my mind at worst it's 55/45 on FD and 50/50 on stages with platforms.

But like I said, I haven't played Chu, so he might completely change my mind..:embarrass

You are free to disagree but I really don't feel aerials are that good as an approach against Marth unless you're already close to him or he's also airborne.
Then let me ask you, why not?
 

nicaboy

Smash Champion
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channeling death lotus
Hmm i well keep some of that in mind. Thanks bra. @ chival you know i was second guessing myself on peach? You made me laugh hard but hell if i know. I don't feel like thinking about it right now.
 

_Rocky_

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edit: and I personally have been playing a bit of PAL recently... it's fun in its own way, but it's certainly not making my ntsc sheik any better
dont let any falcons near your pal version

they wont stop playing it due to their main actually being good there

on topic: how do you counter falcons approaches?
 

Nihonjin

Striving 4 Perfection
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^Fox is much worse, Sheik is worse, Falco is worse, Marth is worse.

So even without the effortless gentlemen, Falcon's relatively speaking a lot better..=]
 
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