Well, we learn from the past and make sure it doesn't happen again in the future. It doesn't mean that we might be right this time when we were wrong before, though. Life is pretty unpredictable. :o
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The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter Shaya
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Nitrix
Smash Ace
So Pit's arrows cannot be reliably powershielded because they can be tweaked to arrive a few frames later thus narrowly avoiding the powershield duration of 3 frames? So Pit's arrows are different from the rest of the projectiles because their movement can be changed during flight thus altering the moment of impact and making powershielding more difficult than normal?
Sounds like complete BS to me, Adumby. D:
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
That statement is how you know ABD has watched a ton of masashi videos, thats basically all he does aside from camping the ledge.
Kinzer
Mammy
What?
You mean, Xy(t)ro)ll) wasn't BSing when he said there was a hack for that? O_o
Oh how late this reply is; I'm too busy playing RebirthRO~. <3
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
You were presuming I was trying to say that Samus was worth a "praise", even after I continuously told you I was not.
You're literally making no sense. You cannot get hit by an out of shield option out of anywhere. That's basically what you're trying to tell me, and this is why I presume you know little to nothing.
Samus does not have to input a move upon landing, just as how any other character doesn't have to. A Marth won't ALWAYS FAir you when he's about to touch the ground, cause the Marth player will KNOW that the opponent can easily guess a FAir and then shield/avoid it. So rather, he's not going to input a move at all and try to reset his own spacing.
A shield won't help her opponent much more than it'll help her. Why? Because she's not forced to attack the shield. If all the opponent does is rely on his/her shield, it won't benefit them in any way. The only time it will benefit them is when the Samus player hits their shield and they're close enough for an out of shield option. ANY character will get punished when they're close enough for an OoS option, a shield doesn't shut down Samus alone.
Samus has the options of retreating AWAY from shield-happy opponents. She also has a couple of ways to deal with shields. Missile > Run up and grab is one.
Ganon is 6th from last on the "Character's Ranking List", is he suddenly the 6th worst character of Brawl? Tournament placing, while a huge part of tier list placement, aren't necessarily the most accurate source.
You just pick up little gimmicks that can be taken advantage of, which is why I say you "presume" way too much.
People can just roll towards Samus on reaction. That takes care of both the missile and the grab.
To (mostly) everything else... *facepalm* I'm tired of repeating myself and rewording what I'm trying to say. Whatever.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Explain to me how a Ganon does not have to approach a Samus, and maybe then I'll believe you.
Then that forces the opponent to not rely on their shield. Meaning, instead of approaching closer or punishing Samus out of shield, they RESET the spacing.
Ah, how people don't want to admit they're wrong.
Is that why you're saying we're wrong? Because Ganon can't do what everyone else can?
Shielding forced Samus to approach. Samus just approached and attempted a grab. Whatever happens afterwards doesn't matter, shielding made Samus fall into a VERY unfavorable position.
Call it whatever you want, as long as it makes you feel better about yourself. What reasons might I have to doubt your methods of self-gratification?
Albert.
Smash Master
Uh
Ray Kalm > everyone in this thread.
Ray Kalm > everyone in this thread.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
No. I was just using Ganon as an example.
At the highest levels of play, a Samus wouldn't use this option to "grab" her opponents, rather use it to limit her opponents. They'll still drop their shield, or maybe they won't.
You're proving my point more.
Then why even list the example? If at highest levels of play it doesn't work, then we agree that your example is nothing more than a gimmick. And at the highest levels of play, when both characters know the MU, gimmicks stop being as reliable as they normally would be (like Kirby's inhale, kirbicides, copy abilities, ninja spikes...)
Do you want me to keep answering your posts? Or do you want me to stop answering your posts? You decide.
Albert.
Smash Master
What are you guys even arguing about?
Kewk just cause you're a mod doesn't mean you can post a Facepalm picture and NOT come off as a d*** and/or Inui-like.
Kewk just cause you're a mod doesn't mean you can post a Facepalm picture and NOT come off as a d*** and/or Inui-like.
I posted it because he doesn't get that I said i'd stop replying because I'm getting tired of repeating the same things over and over, but worded differently. He took it as me losing to him and he being right (which is not the case), so I facepalmed and said that it's not true, but if that makes him feel better then he can say whatever he wants. He then took it as yet another sign that I can't defend my arguments, which really truly made me want to facepalm because yet again, he interpreted my posts in whatever way made him seem like he had the edge over me in the argument, which isn't so.
I'm not trying to sound elitistic by any means. I'm just tired of having to argue with someone who literally has no way of forming an intellectual conversation with, a seen from his condescending posts. He's directly challenging and criticizing my knowledge when i haven't done the same to him nor intended to. If anything, HE has the ~elitistic attitude... And I don't want to stoop to the level of condescending attitudes just like he has.
It's under his own discretion if he wants me to keep repeating what I say over and over, so I'll just leave it at that. If he wants to continue, then he'll say yes; if not, then that's it for the topic at hand.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
The opponent is restricted to thinking what he should or shouldn't do out of shield the moment a missile hits their shield. They can either get out of the way, or continue power-shielding (since Samus won't ever use a missile at punishable range). Technically, this little "gimmick" deals with shields.
If you can, then go ahead. If you can't, then don't try to act like you could.
Albert.
Smash Master
Your e-P**** is so large, kewk!
You're defending Samus' offensive game, when it is universally agreed upon as garbage. I'm telling you it is garbage and saying it won't amount to anything, and you keep bouncing off my arguments as if you had something to say that would destroy every argument ever on the topic. The truth is that you're binded to your opinion, as am I to mine. I'm trying to show you through words why I think you're wrong, and you question my knowledge by saying "I know next to nothing".
Choose MK, hold your shield, and then upB. That's an OoS upB. If I'm shielding expecting a hit from an opponent because I'm in their maximum range and they're within my upB OoS range, it doesn't matter if they hit my shield or not; once I know they're vulnerable and in my attack's range, I can attack from out of my shield and it will be an out-of-shield upB.
If the Marth is forced to land within OoS moves' range, he has no option but to get hit by the OoS option (unless he times his upB to hit his opponent when the shield drops and he's starting up his attack, which is usually the case with Marth, who actually has an aerial option against non-invincible OoS options). If Samus is going to land near any character's shield, she can't do anything but get hit by the OoS option. Whatever she does (or doesn't do), she's gonna get punished for it.
And this is all assuming we approached her by shielding. Once you're near an aerial Samus with a shield due to resetting her spacing (something that should go without saying when discussing approaches), her only way out is through gimmicks by expecting her opponent to drop the shield earlier/later than they should, and getting punished for it.
An opponent can attack Samus OoS even if Samus doesn't hit their shields. All it takes is for them to have their shield up and make Samus NOT want to attack their shields, then the execution of their OoS option. If Samus doesn't his MK's shield, MK's still gonna upB Samus whenever she's vulnerable, and her only way out is by guessing when the MK's gonna upB and airdodging through that.
Can you give me some examples of how else Samus can avoid these scenarios, once she finds herself in one of them (about to land near an opponent's shield and them having a good OoS option to punish her for landing near them, while they expect Samus to hit their shields)?
How can she retreat away, if she's going to land near an opponent's shield in my scenario that I've been repeating for the last couple of posts? She has no jumps, only her upB and downB to alter her landing trajectory, and they both won't stop her from being punished.
And if she retreats AWAY from shield-happy opponents while they have the advantage, she's only running out the clock, which is detrimental to her in the end. She's going to lose unless she regains the lead, and camping the opponent out with slow-moving projectiles isn't helping her at all. She's going to be forced to commit to an approach due to the opponents powershielding her slow-moving, telegraphed projectiles. Approaching is what the shielding opponent wants Samus to do. Once she commits to whatever approach option she decided on undertaking (like homing missile+grab), the opponent can react accordingly and widen the gap between both players, both in distance and % lead/stock lead.
My point was that there's a reason Samus isn't doing better in her tourney results, even though your claims of Samus being able to counter excessive defensive play with projectile spam sounds convincing. Her tourney results reflect her position in the tier list: down below, with the worst characters of the game.
A part of being a good player is improving your player-base skills. What I can apply with Kirby, ZSS, Ike, Jigglypuff, Peach, Snake, MK, Falco, (etc...), I can also apply to Samus. I am very good at being patient and watching my opponent's reactions to my actions, along with other personal traits, which has granted me recognition around PR as one of the best players even though I don't use top tier characters. As Samus, I watch what my opponents do while setting up a defensive parameter between me and my opponent. My opponents can either evade it all, shield it and not approach, or shield it and approach. At the top levels of play, room for mistake is smaller than at other levels of play, meaning that I have to be playing perfectly if I want to make sure I come out on top.
The bad thing about Samus, is that her tool set doesn't allow for some situations. Samus will get attacked and lose her advantage, and if the opponent knows how to play against Samus (AKA knows the MU), then Samus should have huuuge problems coming out on top (unless her MU discussion says otherwise, like against Ganon who is susceptible to all types of camping and can't counter ledge play as well as most other characters).
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
I don't know how much times you must have ignored this but, I'll say it again; I am not trying to make Samus a better character than she is.
You're sliding from one of your points to another.
This is what you had said before:
But to your current point, why would Samus land right in front of a shielding MK/any other character? In your mind you're picturing a very stupid Samus player, while we're discussing things at the highest levels of play here. Samus wouldn't land in front of shields to begin with.
You're wrong. Spotdodge/shield comes out faster than about every other option in this game. Even if you're within OoS punishment, it's possible to avoid the punishment UNLESS your move makes contact with the shield.
Do you even know what OoS is? You can't OoS out of anywhere, and you definitely can't attack OoS when nothing is in contact.
Samus can definitely avoid a lot, if not most, moves OoS by not making contact with the shield in the first place. She's normally suppose to be punished when she's busy AVOIDING moves in general.
How is anyone going to retreat away in this scenario you keep bringing out? While we're at it, how is Snake going to not get hit when he's in lag? How is Ganon not going to get punished for using a random Warlock punch? You bringing up this scenario where Samus is put in a bad postion, really has me clueless, since she's obviously going to get punished/whatever.
Her grab alone is horrible, but she's a character that forces you to shield and gives you a reason not to spotdodge with projectile traps and the threat of D-air combos. She can get grabs just fine, and for stuff that should be shieldgrabbed, she also has Up-B out of shield.
Once again, I'm not trying to make Samus a better character than she is, her tournament results are actually quite accurate, it's the other characters which are a bit mixed up.
I don't see how picking up gimmicks and pointing them out relates to this in any way. No top tiers and PR? Well, I use Ganon and I'm in my PR.
Samus is a very bad character, Kewkky, I haven't denied she isn't. I know how horrible her moveset is, and how easy it could be to take advantage of her. But she's definitely not as bad and as easily exploitable as you're making her out to be.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Yes, I said "about every other option in this game", Swordgard.
Both things convey the same exact message... Which is that if Samus doesn't attack my shield, I'm going to trap her anyway while she lands, due to knowing she has no attack fast or disjointed enough to beat my offensive maneuver at mid/close range (besides zair, which is where this whole argument derived from).
Samus lands in front of the shielding opponent because the opponent approached while shielding, when Samus already jumped beforehand. I'm not thinking of a stupid Samus player, I'm thinking of a smart opponent. And Samus can be forced to land right next to shields given the right circumstances, which are easy to replicate during a match given a character who can reliably shield while approaching.
That's where frame-trapping comes into play. If Samus doesn't hit my shield, then I'll get her while she lands, during her landing lag. There are only a handful of attacks in the game that completely cancel out landing lag (Falco's silent lasers, Snake's grenade landing, MK's tornado from the right height, ZSS's dair from the right height...), and Samus' only attack that has NO landing lag is her zair. which if she uses will set her up for a parry from an OoS option. It's possible to avoid this with some certain maneuvers, like say... Footstooling the opponent's shield so Samus can jump again and making the opponent miss his OoS option.
You're thinking of the common applications of OoS options. An OoS option is, as the name states, an out-of-shield option. If you shield and do something out of shield, then you just did something OoS (out-of-shield).
The term OoS was used to coin the maneuver "parrying attacks", which is blocking an attack and retaliating with one of your own. I can still do an OoS option without parrying attacks, which is whatI'm saying here... Some characters (even Kirby) can trap Samus in situations she can't do anything, where she is most vulnerable, with OoS options. If Samus attacks the shield she gets parried. If Samus doesn't attack the shield, she gets punished for not preventing the opponent from approaching in his shield (pretty much the reason why her matchup against DDD is super terrible, even with the standing infinite banned... She is doomed against people who revolve around shields due to not being able to do anything to shields).
Exactly. She avoids the OoS option when the opponent is approaching in his shield, and due to her trying to avoid it, she gets punished for it. Same goes for trying to counter the shield with any option.
This scenario happens all the time, and is the reason why Samus is so low in tourney results. She was doing her thing on-stage, and the opponent approached with the shield and reset the spacing she created by spamming projectiles and zairing at mid-range. Sanek punished because of his lag is how the MU should be played. Ganon punished because of a random Warlock Punch is just stupid. :|
The Samus example I've been using is what always happens when the MU is played correctly, with the opponent approaching instead of just sitting back in his shield, expecting Samus to approach... If all she can do to attempt to regain the advantage is spam projectiles from a distance, how does she win? If it's because the opponents approach and Samus punishes them for it, then they're playing the Mu wrong, and what I've been pointing out with the examples is what should be happening to Samus when the opponent approaches with shields the right way.
You mean Dair strings.
What happens when she doesn't get the grabs in? She's not always gonna land those grabs, you know. People wisen up to her gimmicks and approach differently, avoiding falling for the same scenario a second/third/fourth time. What happens after that, when Samus can't rely on such gimmicks anymore due to the opponent staying out of Samus' grab range whenever she sets up her traps, then approaching whenever she begins setting them up?
Which is why I haven't questioned your knowledge with condescending remarks. You're in your state's PR for a reason, as am I in mine.
I just decided to hold back on the compliments to very bad characters. They're near the lower end of the tierlist for a reason, and thinking to myself "hey, this character isn't as bad as I thought they were" doesn't take from the fact that they're the worst characters of the game for a reason. If they had more redeeming qualities, they'd be a spot higher in the list, at least.
I'm not saying the Samus players will all be stupid and land next to our shields... I'm saying that the opponent will be smart enough to approach while shielding, and at the same time preventing falling into her traps (like staying out of her grab range when she shoots homing missiles and is in the process of landing). Once he gets close enough, she's left with landing near the opponent, where the opponent will be waiting for her. And if Samus attempts to grab the opponent due to the trap being in effect, a simple roll out of shield behind Samus will put an end to her trap, so they roll out of shielded approaches.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Not "more difficult", "impossible to do reliably".
It's like consistently powershielding a frame 6 move, it doesn't happen unless your opponent is predictable with it.
So... you're saying that you can reliably powershield something that will hit you within the space of around 18 frame, with you opponent completely controlling which frame it will actually hit, and only if it hits during 3 of those frames will it be a powershield?
Telepathic much?
Pit loops arrow and fires another one. Now you've got the same game with an additional arrow in play so he can punish your spotdodge.
Return to square 1.
What?
No, welcome to the world of ridiculous strawmen, you just have to approach.
Wait... so did you miss the part where I was commenting how Brawl players sucks in regards to technical ability? You know, my other main argument.
There also are extremely few Samus players around anyway, which sort of makes the still and MU knowledge required for it... not exactly in high demand.
Name dropping.
Well, actually it's more crediting with the original essay.
Regardless, the point stands, the average American player sucks in a number of regards, and getting off this stupid "I can't" attitude is one of the most important steps towards improving the average level of our metagame.
99.9% sure somebody already has it to the third standard deviation if not more, it's just... well it's Samus.
But if you pick a character that doesn't that I've already practiced the powershield timing for, well I'll powershield pikachu's thunder jolts all day if you need a proof of concept.
I thought we wanted falco to approach... well if you can't powershield the lasers reliably, dealing with Falco's approach options is certainly a better option then APPROACHING HIM WHEN HE'S LASER SPAMMING ON THE LEFT PLATFORM.
Yes his approach options are nice, but patiently waiting... well anywhere that means that you don't have to approach sounds far superior to approaching.
Lol, why, because you can't do it?
The reality is, over time people improve and the metagame improves, I already see players where failing to successfully powershield is incredibly rare (there was one particularly telling set between a Japanese DDD and Pikachu that I'll probably be able to refind if prompted) and with the continuous march of the metagame, I don't see how, given the fact that we know it's possible we can just reject it as a factor summarily.
I'm not saying that people are perfect, there always will be occasional ****-ups, but over time they will become less and less and less common, to the point where they're practically irrelevant.
You're really overestimating Pit's arrows, honestly. The difference in when it hits your shield will not be THAT vast if there's a difference at all. It's not like he can hold them mid-air for a frame or two after he releases them.
Don't you wish Arrow loops were that easy to set up? Because they aren't. >>
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
How so? Varying the impact time by a measly 3 frames? Why can't he do that?
I'm simplifying a lot obviously, but I think it still holds in general. Stage dependent obviously, but still.
Take another look at the turning radius of those arrows. It definitely doesn't seem like enough to change the impact time by more than 2 frames at that speed if it can change the impact time at all.
I'm not so sure...
Albert.
Smash Master
If you're not seriously annoyed by arrows, then you haven't been playing good Pits.
Just because they're annoying doesn't mean they're impossible to powershield consistently.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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If you don't get annoyed by arrows that means you are a good player that can keep your cool and go for the win.
I'm sorry but what you just said is stupid.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
The point of Pit's arrow isn't really to damage you anyway. The damage they do is a bonus, should your opponent fail to avoid it.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Are people actually arguing that you shouldn't usually be approaching Pit? Be realistic...you can't powershield everyone. As Adum stated, you have a good amount of options to vary how and when they hit. Maybe you could PS them from a distance, but even good Pit's get stuck holding a charging arrow right next to you. You really think you can PS it?
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
If that was the case, I'd just start spamming jab and either clank it out, or end up slowly moving towards Pit until the point I hit him with one of my jabs.
LanceStern
Smash Lord
lol at Samus running from OOS options when she's approaching.
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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For me I can just ground Float to him and Nair his arrows to cancel them out and repeat till I get close. Thats how I get close to campy olimars.If that was the case, I'd just start spamming jab and either clank it out, or end up slowly moving towards Pit until the point I hit him with one of my jabs.
LanceStern
Smash Lord
When I try that Dark Peach against Olimars I wind up getting fsmashed or grabbed because all his moves look the same. How do I combat that?
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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If olimar is camping you, he will mostly liekly be running away and going for pivot grabs. So don't be to close to him. Just Ground float Nair over and over to kill pikmin. Also in this case, he will be pinned to a corner. And around the time he tries to get more, you can abuse that and start pounding on him. When he breaks free of your range and has pikmin, repeat. Dont me so close to him when doing this. And pikmiin determine his range of his F/Dsmash, grabs.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Samus will try to space herself to prevent this situation in the first place. Not at all will a Samus jump near a shielding opponent. You are picturing a dumb Samus.
Once again, If Samus doesn't make contact with the shield, she can fastfall into a shield or possible spotdodge.
Then you should be more specific with what you say.
Firstly, if anyone, but maybe a few characters, attack a shield, they get punished OoS. Samus has plenty of maneuvers to force her opponent's into NOT shielding in the first place. Them shielding doesn't have to be punished for it to be considered not shielding.
I didn't say that. She doesn't leave herself susceptible to punishment when she's avoiding, as you're now suddenly presuming. Her "avoiding" actually makes the opponent require to guess and predict how to punish her, since they can't attack her shield, and are limited to shielding themselves.
I've already explained why you can't rely TOO much on shield against Samus, while what you're saying is true, it's not true to the exact concept and not as easy as a drift.
She pressures her opponent to not make them approach her to close range WHILE remaining in neutral position herself. Her neutral position to her is far away, so having to approach her is a bonus to her when she could limit her opponent's option to some degree.
No, I mean DAir combos. There are a couple of true combos Samus can do out of DAir.
She doesn't have to get those grabs in to deal with shields. If the opponent will be smart enough to expect a grab, how do you think he/she will avoid it? Dropping their shield and 'attempting' to get out of way by dodging of course. They can't keep their shield up and risk to take in more moves, otherwise that will leave them with a very weak shield. Dodging grabs which they THINK or ANTICIPATE the Samus will do will DEAL with shields because it's NOT harming Samus in anyway. And also, while dodging, they will HAVE to dodge away because you can't dodge towards Samus or above Samus (she covers both those areas with up + B/ other moves).
I don't live in a state.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Yea you do.
Unless you mean by state "one of the 50 federated states that make up the United States of America", which is a rather odd way to interpret his initial statement because in that case, neither does he (he's from PR).
Canada is a state, and your province is essentially a federated State (though it's referred to as a province, conceptually it's the same).
Actually, fairer comment would be "you don't live in a state", because PR is not a state in any meaning of the term due to it's lack of sovereignty and the fact that it's not a member state of the American Union.
Sorry, I just rambled about poli sci, didn't I?
Albert.
Smash Master
It's posts like that, Adum
ROFLL
On-topic
Ike's jab should be mid-tier?
my low tier main isn't ike... It's Ike's Jab.
Jab jab jab that's all he needs.
ROFLL
On-topic
Ike's jab should be mid-tier?
my low tier main isn't ike... It's Ike's Jab.
Jab jab jab that's all he needs.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
The basic hierarchy of Canadian government (in order of jurisdictional responsibilities) is roughly: Federal, Provincial, Territorial, Regional Municipal (regional), County, Municipal (city), Township, District.
Canadians may say "county", if they live in one, but not "state" as their is no such thing. Though, state could be used to refer any country in general, so you're partially right.
Anyways, I think you may have missed my previous reply to your post; As an example, explain to me how Ganon wouldn't be forced to approach Samus if he can powershield all her projectiles and ZAir.
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