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The Official Ike Video Critique Thread

theeboredone

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Yea. Local scene = local tournies. If you don't have any (use the regional zones here on SWF, or search your state), try traveling some distance with your buddies. I normally go to a monthly wit my crew that's usually 3 hours away. I'm sure there should be something going on in your state.
 

san.

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What Bored says is truth. Getting those people who you can travel with to tourneys is a huge step.
 

Nysyarc

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rETPFakpjzE

I have been working on ike. Tell me what you think
No critique request gets forgotten on my watch. Brace yourself, here it comes.

0:09 - Try not to jab cancel from Jab 2 -> Jab 1 too much, it's not as effective as Jab 1 -> Jab 1. I like just doing two Jab 1s really quick and then finishing all three hits, provided my opponent isn't DIing away.
0:12 - Don't lunge straight at your opponent to Fair, it has obscene range for a reason. Try to hit the opponent with the tip of the sword and fall back away afterwards.
0:18 - Your instinct should never be to grab, always Jab. Jabs would have worked there.
0:20 - Obviously your main focus while off-stage should be to return to the stage. Using Aether so early was just a terrible idea, if you waited you could easily have survived. Also, when you're near the edge of the stage and you think you're about to get hit, hold up on the control stick to DI upwards and make it easier to recover.
1:09 - When you've got them pinned at the edge like that at such a high percent, it's useless to continue jabbing. Just either finish the three hits, or if your opponent can actually DI, use an Utilt after a Jab 1.
1:22 - Rule of thumb, if you miss with the first jab, end it there. The third jab (the sword swing) is very punishable.
1:26 - In a situation like that you would have been better to maneuver yourself so you could punish with jabs. Always watch for opportunities to jab, because Ike's grab reward is pretty much non-existent at low percents.
1:45 - Gah, don't Dair into the ground. Never. Ever. EVER. Dair into the ground. Especially not right in front of someone. Space your attacks and take your time.
1:50 - If you had held up when he smashed you initially, you would have been in a much better position, and he wouldn't have been able to gimp you like that. Remember to DI up when you think you're about to be hit sideways.
2:06 - Dtilt can't be used like that, only on characters that don't sweet-spot the ledge. Plus I'm pretty sure you were too far away.
2:11 - Uuuuh... nice mindgames?
2:19 - It's not always best to hold down A when jabbing; try to get a feel for how your opponent likes to DI and follow-through accordingly. Since he was DIing away and up here, finishing all three hits would have worked because the third sword hit would have caught him, where your fist didn't have enough range.
2:21 - I don't know why you started dashing there, just Jab.
2:34 - Ike's Fsmash has a false hitbox in the top corner of the swing radius. It looks like it should hit there, but it doesn't. Always keep that in mind when timing an Fsmash (see the hitbox visual in Kirk's Ike Data Compilation thread for clarification).
2:40 - It's official. I've now seen everything.

Overall, I'd say your Ike still needs quite a lot of work. It seemed like you weren't really playing at 100% in these matches, and you were going for some pretty dumb and flashy KOs off-stage in some of them. That's fine in friendlies, but make sure when you want a match critiqued that it's a legit match where you gave it your all.

So work on jabbing more, proper use of jab canceling (Jab 1 -> Jab 1 more often than Jab 2 -> Jab 1), grabbing less but grabbing situationally. For example, grab if your opponent seems to like just holding their shield on instead of spot-dodging. If they like spot-dodging, jab to punish. Space your aerials; that means all of them. Hit with the tip of the sword and back away fast so you can't get punished. Don't use Dair or special moves on-stage.

That's another thing, Ike's specials are extremely situational. You shouldn't be using them in important matches until you really know what you're doing and how to properly read your opponent. Basically all of Ike's specials can be punished hard if you mess up. And lastly, look up a guide on how to DI well, it's very important for any character, but Ike especially.


One of these are a tourney match and the other is a friendly. I'm not sure which is which though. I'll try to get some more vids up before it's starts being outdated.

March 14th,
Scabe :link2: vs ...Ellipsis... :ike:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FApqeJJ25hU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCmAgY9359I

I would critique this now but, is the Ike player going to be able to find my critique? Get back to me on that. Also, the conversation in the comment section for the second video was a little... misinformed.
 

KickKickFlip

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HAHAHA the conversation in the second video reminds me of like the second week of brawl being out :D
 

Scabe

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Haha yeah, I was just being nice with the replies. :p

Anyways, I don't think the Ike player visits these boards, so don't worry about critiquing! I just wanted to add it in some video tread and this was all I could find. :embarrass
 

Nysyarc

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xiZn356l4w
i picked up ike yesterday, so yeah. not sure if i'm doing anything wrong, or if i should stop doing things.
I like the video quality, and I know Sora, I actually friendly him quite a lot.

0:09 - It's a little thing, kind of nit-picky, but try not to use Bair while fast-falling into the ground. It can be hard to time and it's punishable.
0:16 - Make sure to end your Jab combo after the first or second one if you miss. The third Jab takes a lot longer to end.
0:31 - You should only be grabbing after the first Jab, if you hit with the first two Jabs, just complete all three hits.
0:38 - Fairs aren't always your best bet against Link. His Zair can outrange it and is overall a much better move. Plus you don't really want to space Link, you want to get in close and Jab him, then get a grab and Bthrow -> DA. Once he's off-stage Link is very vulnerable.
0:53 - That QD was a bad idea. It's almost always better to wait and Aether; and if you're going to QD, try and do it to a platform... and against an opponent who has no projectiles.
0:56 - Never land on the stage after an Aether plank. Unless you've already done four, in which case don't use Aether again.
1:00 - You could have punished him a lot harder there. At least use Jabs for more damage, but an Ftilt would have been favorable because he would have been off-stage. When facing Link, you're only objective is to get him off-stage.
1:07 - Poorly spaced; you should really be focusing more on Jabs but if you're going to Fair, always space them. You did a good job on some of them, but you have to do it all the time.
1:15 - You need to edge-guard Link when he's off-stage. Do a walk-off Fair or Dair. Charging Eruption won't accomplish anything.
1:22 - Never FF after using Bair on a shorthop. Shorthop Bair auto-cancels, so fast-falling it just makes it take longer.
1:41 - For momentum cancel, use an Air-dodge followed immediately by a jump if you're sent horizontally, and a Dair if sent vertically. The key thing vertically is to fast-fall, and Dair will do that. Try not to use an Aerial attack when sent horizontally... especially not Nair.
2:22 - So many things wrong with that. First of all there's a bomb right next to you. Second, Link can easily sweet-spot the ledge with his upB or his Zair. Dtilt is very rarely useful, and it's never your best edge-guarding option.
2:27 - Maybe that was a mistake but obviously it's a bad idea. If he shielded it he could have punished you however he wanted to. Dair has the most landing lag of any of Ike's aerials, so don't use it into the ground.
3:15 - Are you actually purposely using Nair to momentum cancel? If so, it must stop.
3:59 - You're going to Jab -> grab way too much. If it doesn't work the first few times in a match, you should stop trying. Sora is DIing your first Jab away so it'll rarely ever work.
4:23 - Gaaah, off-stage! When you grab Link so close to the edge like that, Bthrow. You want him off-stage, not far away from you in the air.

So you played pretty well... it's mostly just this particular match-up that needs work. Spacing with Fair is fine in most match-ups, and you did it well for the most part. Against Link though, you need to close the distance and abuse your Jabs. You should try jab-canceling after the first jab and completing all three hits more often instead of trying for a grab. Ike's grab reward isn't very good, and nothing he can do after a throw is truly guaranteed (Bthrow -> DA only works at certain percents).

Don't fast-fall everything, especially your Bairs. Tap jump with the control stick while simultaneously c-sticking the Bair and then just let yourself fall at the normal speed so it auto-cancels. Edge-guard more aggressively, especially against Link when he's off-stage. There are some match-ups (like MK) where it's best to stay grounded, but against a character with a terrible recovery like Link, you have to take advantage and get him while he's vulnerable.


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HyL!

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mmk thanks, i'm not meaning to use n air, i'm getting used to the tilt stick, and it kept doing n air instead of b air, which i thought was the best for momentum canceling D:
 

Teh Brettster

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Air dodge is Ike's best option for momentum canceling if you're sent sideways. It ends before any of his aerials do.

Any aerial + fast fall is how to momentum cancel if you're sent upward.
 

Nysyarc

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Air dodge is Ike's best option for momentum canceling if you're sent sideways. It ends before any of his aerials do.

Any aerial + fast fall is how to momentum cancel if you're sent upward.
^^^ This. Although I'm pretty sure Dair and Bair end sooner if you're still in the air (exact same number of frames for both I believe), so it's better to use those just in case you do need to perform another action soon afterwards. You don't want to use Nair because it lasts forever in the air. But yah, any aerial can be used as long as you fast-fall simultaneously.

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san.

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That looked like a lot of sandbagging to me.. lol
I'm just hoping that isn't how he really plays.
 

Nysyarc

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Question, what do you think of this Ike? I think he goes by Ronin, so that's what I labeled him as ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy1KBN4p7JU
Eh, not too impressive really. Obviously trying to be flashy but more often than not he just ended up looking dumb. Waaay too much use of QD as an approach/attack. Too much jab canceling after Jab 2. It's easy to SDI out of it at that point. Plus what was with the Fsmashing after Jabs? It may have worked the first time but it was a bad idea to try it again.

And the over-eager Dtilt edge-guarding is a pretty standard flashy technique that never accomplishes anything and gets you punished. I lol'd when you Eruption'd him though, that was a bad call on his part, should have just grabbed the edge and waited it out.

I could do a critique like I usually do them, but only if this Ronin guy will actually be around to read it. Oh and just a quick tip for you: that first Fsmash KO he got could definitely have been avoided by DIing up. Be ready to DI up 90% of the time as Ike. Basically any time you think you're about to be hit or you just made a mistake, jam the control stick up. If you had bent your trajectory upwards there and momentum canceled, you definitely could have survived it.

The only time you don't want to DI up is obviously when you're sent up by the attack. But Ike's Fsmash will destroy you very early without proper DI... as made evident by this video.


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theeboredone

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So all in all, this guy sucks. We get it.

Edit: Shinde, your DI sucks. You had a chance at living from that f-smash, and the f-tilt at the end, you coulda lived through also.
 

Shinde425

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Huh, wow. You guys are tough to impress lol. I have difficulty DIing because my timing is bad. Is it really as easy as just holding up? Like is that a general rule. What's better Dair or Bair for momentum canceling?

Edit:
What's up with all the dash dancing shenanigans? =.=
Random QDs there and there lol
I liked it, looks cool and it threw me off. I think it just allows his Ike to be crafty...plus gives the illusion that he's moving faster than Ike's normal speed...the quick draws is just to keep from getting predictable. I don't understand why he sucks for it though
 

Nysyarc

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Huh, wow. You guys are tough to impress lol. I have difficulty DIing because my timing is bad. Is it really as easy as just holding up? Like is that a general rule. What's better Dair or Bair for momentum canceling?
Yes, just hold up, no need to tap the control stick at the exact moment you're hit. That's for SDI, which is still useful but not nearly as important for surviving hard hits (in b4 Mr. Doom objects).

For momentum canceling vertically, Dair and Bair are both exactly the same as long as you tap the control stick down at the same time to fast-fall. With Dair it's easier cause you can just manually input the Dair (hold control stick down and A), or if you use the Smash stick, hit the c-stick down and it will auto fast-fall. For a Bair you have to c-stick the Bair and tap the control stick down.


Edit:
I liked it, looks cool and it threw me off. I think it just allows his Ike to be crafty...plus gives the illusion that he's moving faster than Ike's normal speed...the quick draws is just to keep from getting predictable. I don't understand why he sucks for it though
The Quickdraws themselves were predictable, he did them way too often :ohwell: if he wants to be unpredictable, he can do things that are unpredictable but much less punishable.

And dash-dancing will only work for a very short time. After a while his opponents will catch on and start just hitting him while he's doing it. Looking 'cool' is hardly something we give points for here; looking skilled and effective is what we want.


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Shinde425

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I guess, I'll have to learn to powershield consistently before even considering smash DIing, but thanks. Thanks for the tips. ^^
 

Nysyarc

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I guess, I'll have to learn to powershield consistently before even considering smash DIing, but thanks. Thanks for the tips. ^^
Anytime. Bored is here to tell you bluntly that you suck, I'm here to tell you why and how to improve. I'm not saying you suck though, the DI was the only thing that stood out to me in that last video.

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Mr. Doom

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Yes, just hold up, no need to tap the control stick at the exact moment you're hit. That's for SDI, which is still useful but not nearly as important for surviving hard hits (in b4 Mr. Doom objects).
I object. Wait... It's already too late...? Darn it. And whaddya mean SDI is not nearly as important for surviving hard hits?
 

Nysyarc

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I object. Wait... It's already too late...? Darn it. And whaddya mean SDI is not nearly as important for surviving hard hits?
Lol, your SDI is an exception. Normal human beings use SDI primarily for escaping combos/weak attacks that can string together. Bending your trajectory with traditional DI is more important for people just learning to DI when it comes to surviving KO moves.

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-RedX-

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SDIing+DI=best way for living longer though lol
There's those situations if you manage to put yourself in (you whiffed an attack) that you absolutely know that you're gonna get hit with a kill move (Ike=lots laggy moves, so if you whiffed something and you're at a KO %, might as well just start thinking about SDIing properly+DI).
 

Nysyarc

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I never said it wasn't better to do both, just that DI is more important for those situations. Obviously doing both properly is the ultimate goal, but if somebody doesn't know how to DI properly at all, it's not the best idea to get them started with SDI and DI at the same time. Since DI has a greater effect on surviving KO moves, it's best to start there.

Like when Shinde got hit by that Fsmash, he could have done frame-perfect SDI as many times as possible to the left but not held up, and he still would have either gotten KOd, or been in a very gimp-able position, because his trajectory wouldn't have changed. On the other hand, had he bent his trajectory properly, he could even have SDId a bit in the direction he was being sent and still easily survived with proper momentum canceling.

Like I said, using both is obviously even better, but to start out someone who's new to DI, it's best for them to get the hang of regular DI first.


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-RedX-

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Well, I guess for players newer to DI, just take what I said in my last post ignoring the word SDI.
=p
 

theeboredone

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Edit:
I liked it, looks cool and it threw me off. I think it just allows his Ike to be crafty...plus gives the illusion that he's moving faster than Ike's normal speed...the quick draws is just to keep from getting predictable. I don't understand why he sucks for it though
You know what your opponent reminded me of? Those fighting animes or shows where a guy is moving around at super fast speeds, and the main character catches him with one punch and knocks the **** out of him. That's what you shoulda done. He left himself wide open one too many times.

Opponent: -Dash dancing- look at me, so cool, so sexy, so amazing!
Shinde: -Jab-

TL;DR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UyxwlFz-Qs

The first minute of that video sums up what I just said.



The end.

Lol, your SDI is an exception. Normal human beings use SDI primarily for escaping combos/weak attacks that can string together. Bending your trajectory with traditional DI is more important for people just learning to DI when it comes to surviving KO moves.

:034:
Just tossing this out there, but if you're playing in an Ike ditto, you're at high damage, and your opponent is trying to do the jab combo to get you off stage, one way to avoid that is to SDI + DI down and the moment you get hit by the final attack of the jab combo, you tech the ground and roll away. Pretty sexy.
 

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Or you could just do like the computers and just super sdi the first hit and counter with whatever move you see fit. It very much annoys me when they do that, but if I ever see human players doing that stuff, I'm gonna have a cow.
 

Nysyarc

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Or you could just do like the computers and just super sdi the first hit and counter with whatever move you see fit. It very much annoys me when they do that, but if I ever see human players doing that stuff, I'm gonna have a cow.
A level 9 CPU once powershielded all three hits of my jab combo, done as fast as they can be, then instead of punishing, rolled behind me. So I turn and jab again, he powershields the first jab and SDIs the kick back right to very edge of the sword's hitbox and powershields that. Then he rolls away again.

I swear CPUs are aware of their inhuman ability to SDI and PS everything, and they mess with us like that on purpose.


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YagamiLight

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I finally had some videos recorded of me playing! Sadly even I can tell that I am playing like a person who just got the game in 2008. I have a pretty good grasp of what I am doing wrong (or rather, what I am not doing [like Nair]) but I figure that it never hurts to get critical commentary.

Three games (friendlies) of me versus Arikie (a Sonic main):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO7u9-N0SL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFpeW22Hu8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZb85d_V2xo

We had a money match but I don't think we recorded that. I'm fairly confident that I played better there but enough of my post-game johns, haha.
 

san.

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@Light. it'll be easier to talk about it on AIM. I think I talked to you on AIM before, but I forgot what it was.
 

YagamiLight

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I haven't used AIM in several years but I can easily install a chat client. As soon as I have it up, I'll definitely make a post about it.

EDIT: Apparently I linked to a Ike v Pikachu match for some reason in the first one. Didn't mean to, that was a bit of a joke game (especially considering how I tried to suicide last stock while I was down in stock...)
 

Nysyarc

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I finally had some videos recorded of me playing! Sadly even I can tell that I am playing like a person who just got the game in 2008. I have a pretty good grasp of what I am doing wrong (or rather, what I am not doing [like Nair]) but I figure that it never hurts to get critical commentary.

Three games (friendlies) of me versus Arikie (a Sonic main):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO7u9-N0SL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFpeW22Hu8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZb85d_V2xo

We had a money match but I don't think we recorded that. I'm fairly confident that I played better there but enough of my post-game johns, haha.
I'm way too tired to a do a full critique right now, and anyways there weren't too many individual incidents where I could have pointed stuff out. However, I noticed a few things generally. You attempted a lot of dashing grabs, which in certain circumstances is okay, but it's typically better, especially against a fast character like Sonic, to shield cancel and use jabs instead, for pretty obvious reasons.

I also noticed you used a lot of unnecessary spot-dodges, and the Sonic player punished you for them a lot. Sometimes he would actually stand next to you and wait for you to spot-dodge, and then grab you afterwards. Spot-dodging a lot in a match-up like Sonic isn't usually a good idea. Also your Bairs, you were doing full-hop Bairs a lot. I don't know if maybe you had a reason for it, but obviously it's less punishable if you short-hop and auto-cancel them.

And then the last thing I noticed was that you resorted to using QuickDraw a lot to recover. The Sonic could have edge-hogged you almost every time you did that but instead he used his spring and allowed you to hit it, giving you time to use an Aether. In some of those cases, QD was unnecessary, and it would have been safer to fall and Aether, but in other cases, you could have avoided the situation entirely by DIing a little bit better. You seemed to be flying much more horizontally than vertically after a lot of his hits.

I just watched the one match on Battlefield; again, too tired. Overall I did like how you handled the match-up, using more Bairs and Nairs than Fairs. A few too many Usmashes thrown out kind of hastily, better to charge them and see what he does. I never even thought of edge-guarding Sonic with Eruption but now that I think about it, it seems like it would be one of the best options if he's below you.


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theeboredone

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I didn't watch any of the matches completely, but in the first one you did a lot of full hop b-airs o_O. What's up with that? Also, you need to adjust to offline, your jab canceling is stupidly slow. Oh and if a person spot dodges, just hold A down.
 

YagamiLight

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Some of the fullhop Bairs I thought were good ideas for the height and possible jump follow-up but others were just straight up botched execution. I am not going to attempt to defend WiFi anymore. It completely massacres any sort of technical execution skill in offline play. Dash to Cstick Down become Down Smashes, for example. Other annoying things include OoS jumps being ignored due to poor button presses on my part.

As for the jab cancel, online play gave me this habit of making sure to be deliberate in my jab cancels because it is relatively easy to mess up on WiFi. That deliberate motion carried into offline just makes my jab cancelling look slow as balls (and it is). Not trying to justify my horrendous execution errors, just hoping that with enough offline play I can eliminate the ill effects of Wifi.
 

Heartstring

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i dont know if i'm missing something here, but why does all the ike vids i see have people air-dodging when they are sent flying, surely using b-air would make you stop faster instead? or are you better off momentum cancellnig with airdodge using ike?
 

metroid1117

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i dont know if i'm missing something here, but why does all the ike vids i see have people air-dodging when they are sent flying, surely using b-air would make you stop faster instead? or are you better off momentum cancellnig with airdodge using ike?
Kirk wrote a thread a long while back in which he stated that airdodging and then double jumping is best to cancel your momentum if you're being knocked out horizontally, while DAir and immediately fastfalling is best to cancel your momentum if you're being knocked out vertically; BAir actually wasn't advised, but I think there isn't a big difference between BAir and DAir, if I recall correctly.
 

Nysyarc

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BAir actually wasn't advised, but I think there isn't a big difference between BAir and DAir, if I recall correctly.
Yah, Bair and Dair take the exact same number of frames in the air, but obviously Dair is a better option because you'll automatically fast-fall. There's really no point using Bair because you would have to c-stick the Bair and tap down on the control stick at the same time to fast-fall... might as well just tap down and press A.

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