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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

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KirbyKaze

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I really don't mind making all of these Sheik vs [insert-character] matchups listed as Sheik > [insert-character], but I really wonder if that's the actual case given how much the people that actually fight competent Sheiks with these [insert-character]s talk about how she's such a ****ing ***** and how she's cheap and OP and other crap.

Again, I really don't mind. I openly stated nobody would agree with me. But given that she's forced, since like 2006, some of the best players of the time (all the way up to the present) to switch off their character, which is a trait not readily associated with most of the other [character1] > [character2] matchups we have, such as Fox > Sheik or whatever, I think we can definitely derive that either almost every Marth in existence sucks at a perfectly doable, almost-even matchup, or the matchup is actually kind of gay and the Marths switching to Fox or whatever actually is warranted.

Also, unless Marth is tipping smashes on Sheik's recovery, his edgeguarding is extremely poor on Sheik's style of recovery.
 

xbombr

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I've always seen Sheik-Falcon as like 65:35 Sheik and Sheik-Marth as like 60:40 Sheik.

Falcon can win the match up by 0-deathing Sheik every time he touches her. (Ok maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, but he has to make every hit count for a lot) Sheik can win the match up by having mediocre tech reaction skills, decent edgegaurding, and the ability to set up a handfull of grabs.

Marth vs. Sheik is a lot trickier since he's got more range, doesn't get outprioritized by Ftilt, and you can't get like 70% tech chases (or chaingrabs for that matter) -> extremely easy edgegaurd off on him.
 

KirbyKaze

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If Marth DIs away you cg him to like 40 and then you switch to dash attack combos.

If Marth DIs anywhere else you U-tilt / Uair him and juggle him into an edgeguard or until he hits a platform and then you keep going. If he hits a platform before you can auto-combo you do any of like 3 things and get a monster combo. Ranges from Dairs, Uairs, to waveland regrabs.

At ~72% on FD if you're facing the edge and there's not much space you D-throw and if he DIs away you Fair and edgeguard for KO and if he does anywhere else you immediately JC U-smash under him and he dies off the roof. This can also work on other stages depending on positioning, stage setup, etc (FoD and PS especially).

Sheik combos Marth very hard. Not as hard as she tech chases Falcon but her combos are good against Marth.
 

xbombr

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Yeah I agree she has good combos against Marth. I give them the 5% difference because Falcon is much easier to set up a tech chase on than Marth is to set up a combo on. Just for the range difference and the fact that Sheik doesn't really have a move against Marth that outprioritizes his approach that can ironically also lead into a grab - 70% tech chase + edgegaurd.

The 5% just happens to be the difference between < and <<. Unless 60:40 match ups are << now...
 

Niko45

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Oh really?! I hope you don't think it's any better for Doc. Because it doesn't get any better for Doc.
Please do spare me. You have pills, you have dair, you have bair, and you have some dthrow - fair kills. You're not helpless out there. Marth > Doc. You have ICs in here saying THAT matchup is just >, man up. Go try playing a good doc with Marth and watch yourself get run train on.

I really don't mind making all of these Sheik vs [insert-character] matchups listed as Sheik > [insert-character], but I really wonder if that's the actual case given how much the people that actually fight competent Sheiks with these [insert-character]s talk about how she's such a ****ing ***** and how she's cheap and OP and other crap.

Again, I really don't mind. I openly stated nobody would agree with me. But given that she's forced, since like 2006, some of the best players of the time (all the way up to the present) to switch off their character, which is a trait not readily associated with most of the other [character1] > [character2] matchups we have, such as Fox > Sheik or whatever, I think we can definitely derive that either almost every Marth in existence sucks at a perfectly doable, almost-even matchup, or the matchup is actually kind of gay and the Marths switching to Fox or whatever actually is warranted.

Also, unless Marth is tipping smashes on Sheik's recovery, his edgeguarding is extremely poor on Sheik's style of recovery.
Honestly, you're supposed to be one of the better sheiks vs marth, and this is a pretty valid argument. But comparably, you must admit that there aren't very many great Marth players anymore. Most Marths play Fox, and no one is going to argue that Marth v Sheik is easier than Fox v Sheik. When you have a bad matchup vs a good matchup as an option, of course people are going to switch off. But if the Marth player is actually really good, and toughs it out, is it really THAT bad? I mean do you just rollover the actually very high level Marths?
 

KirbyKaze

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I have accounted for the lack of good Marths by noting that things have been this way since 2006. Moreover, I would like to note that an equal amount of Marths made bracket at *pound* 4 compared to Sheiks. Furthermore, many of the Marths that play Fox play her largely because of Sheik's existence, and only pick him up because of her.

I haven't played HBK, Cactuar, Strawhat, or M2K in that matchup, so I don't know where people get the idea that I play high level Marths. The only one I have played in the matchup in tournament was Azen a few years ago at *pound* 3 in pools but he won the set with Falco. Anyway, I simply have an opinion and know a lot about comboing Marth and why his approach game sucks against Sheik. It confuses me immensely when people explore the matchup through the perspective of an aggressive Sheik. Sheik is not supposed to be aggressive, she's supposed to make Marth move forward with a move and then **** his spacing with her 4 or so simple strategies that wreck his approach.

Sheik does not get consistent loss against Fox. The matchups do not stack up identically in terms of difficulty.
 

VGmasta

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Please do spare me. You have pills, you have dair, you have bair, and you have some dthrow - fair kills. You're not helpless out there. Marth > Doc. You have ICs in here saying THAT matchup is just >, man up. Go try playing a good doc with Marth and watch yourself get run train on.
I see... must've run into OTG at some point.
But, Marth's attacks eat the pills.
Doc's d-air is easily outranged.
Doc's b-air outranged.
d-throw to whatever, there's not a lot Doc can do get a grab on a Marth that's moving the entire time. Especially since her attack animations make it difficult for Doc to even land a grab. Doc grab range is already terrible. All Marth has to do is bait the whole Marth. No Doc's not helpless, but if a character like Falcon>Doc, then I say Marth>>Doc.
 

otg

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I'm currently of the opinion that Marth > Doc. In fact, I would say it's Doc's easiest high/top tier matchup, but people would look at me like I'm crazy so who ****ing cares.

I see... must've run into OTG at some point.
But, Marth's attacks eat the pills.
Doc's d-air is easily outranged.
Doc's b-air outranged.
d-throw to whatever, there's not a lot Doc can do get a grab on a Marth that's moving the entire time. Especially since her attack animations make it difficult for Doc to even land a grab. Doc grab range is already terrible. All Marth has to do is bait the whole Marth. No Doc's not helpless, but if a character like Falcon>Doc, then I say Marth>>Doc.
lol that's mad funny we posted at the same time. Yeah, Niko and I are crewmates, but you gotta understand, Niko is like a top 3 marth in tristate right now and is definitely going to start beasting hardcore soon, so don't be sleeping on his opinion.

If they suck so much then you can beat anyone who mains them right? MM? =P
Kage troling me mad hard right now lol. I have minimal Ganon experience, but I'd love to MM you at the next tourney we're both at just so I can get ***** lol.
 

Niko45

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@KK - All valid points.

Just throwing this out there, but strawhat beat over in 2 sets back in November which are on youtube now. The matches were in NTSC but they are all on FD, so..yea.

M2k did well against Amsah at least in the vids of their friendlies at pound 4.

I know that doesn't define the law of the land but it demonstrates that the matchup can be competitive, at the very least.
 

Niko45

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I see... must've run into OTG at some point.
But, Marth's attacks eat the pills.
Doc's d-air is easily outranged.
Doc's b-air outranged.
d-throw to whatever, there's not a lot Doc can do get a grab on a Marth that's moving the entire time. Especially since her attack animations make it difficult for Doc to even land a grab. Doc grab range is already terrible. All Marth has to do is bait the whole Marth. No Doc's not helpless, but if a character like Falcon>Doc, then I say Marth>>Doc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmq8zgmkg78

Marth outranges everybody dude...turns out thats not the only factor. You're obviously disadvantaged from a completely neutral stance, but you have nice punishes and edgeguards. OTG has beaten Marths in and outside of tournaments, and I'd be shocked if other Docs haven't done the same.
 

VGmasta

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I'm currently of the opinion that Marth > Doc. In fact, I would say it's Doc's easiest high/top tier matchup, but people would look at me like I'm crazy so who ****ing cares.



lol that's mad funny we posted at the same time. Yeah, Niko and I are crewmates, but you gotta understand, Niko is like a top 3 marth in tristate right now and is definitely going to start beasting hardcore soon, so don't be sleeping on his opinion.



Kage troling me mad hard right now lol. I have minimal Ganon experience, but I'd love to MM you at the next tourney we're both at just so I can get ***** lol.
Hahahaa, we did post at the same time.
Well, that's because you're one of those Dr. Marth slayers. I respect both of your opinions :). But, a great Doc main once told me that Marth can literally keep Doc outside of Marth's attack range for the entire match. I couldn't agree more. My outlook on Marth ain't necessarily correct though. *shrugs* EDIT: Guess I'm not as good as OTG or some of the other Doc's vs. Marth yet.

There's no way Marth's the easiest of the top tiers. Falco is not that bad. Falco > Doc. You can chaingrab Falco but not Marth. And Doc's have 0-death combos much easier on Falco than Marth. And Falco's 1000 times easier to gimp/edgeguard.

And wait, you wanna money match Kage after what happened to Shroomed?!? You must be really good, or really wealthy :laugh:.
 

KirbyKaze

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@KK - All valid points.

Just throwing this out there, but strawhat beat over in 2 sets back in November which are on youtube now. The matches were in NTSC but they are all on FD, so..yea.

M2k did well against Amsah at least in the vids of their friendlies at pound 4.

I know that doesn't define the law of the land but it demonstrates that the matchup can be competitive, at the very least.
Wait we're now taking friendlies into consideration?

*leaves topic*
 

Niko45

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As if two players from opposite sides of the planet aren't going to try against each other the one time they play...
 

Roneblaster

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Marth < Sheik

Not a top Tier Marth << Good Sheik Player

Falcon < Puff or
Falcon << Puff

the fact that Falcon = Puff is still stupifying, please someone link me to that conversation if it has taken place.
 

otg

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As if two players from opposite sides of the planet aren't going to try against each other the one time they play...
I would def sandbag if it was me, but then again I just dont' give a god****.

I don't use Doc much anymore, nor am I like an amazing Doc (or atleast I'm not known), but I've played the matchup a lot and vs. some dank *** marth's. I'd rather fight Marth/Falcon/Jiggs then the spacies/sheik/peach. That's just me. Ganon I'm not to sure about and I flip flop on how I feel about Icies all the time. I could careless about the rest of the cast.

And personally, I think Falco is doc's worst matchup, like hands down.
 

KirbyKaze

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As if two players from opposite sides of the planet aren't going to try against each other the one time they play...
They'll try, sure, but they might not play exactly how they would in tournament. They may take liberties with their combos that they wouldn't otherwise do, etc.

Cactuar has posted specifically in the past noting that his friendlies style leaves far more openings than his tournament style purely because he likes seeing how people respond to situations and likes getting that deep into their head.

I'll concede this may not be the case for them but there's indisputably a difference between tournament styles and friendlies styles. And even if it's only a minor change, small differences can win games.
 

Kyu Puff

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marth is +1 v ic's but not falcon? that doesn't make any sense. considering one of the most famous marth mains in the world countpicked falcon v the best IC's ever in a set and won easily. it's simply in falcons favor, no discussion or video of darkrain v wobbles can change it lmfao
Azen vs Chu is possibly the worst argument ever, because Azen was a better player than Chu back then, and they played together all the time (so their playstyles were more relevant than the actual match-up).
 

TheManaLord

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It wasn't that long ago and the skill difference was not huge whatsoever. I remember that **** live lol!

That's just one example of a historical trend. Falcon has always done well v IC's. Like SS ravaging Wobbles **** in.
 

Kyu Puff

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Wait, SS winning two games in a close one-stock and Fly ****** him on a stage that's neutral in the match-up is proof that it's in Falcon's favor? If anything it just invalidates your SS vs Wobbles example because clearly Wobbles' mindset/match-up knowledge made it seem a lot more one-sided than it really is.
 

TheManaLord

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I don't care about arguing anymore. Are you going to GROAT? I'll $50 MM you and we'll see how the matchup works.

EDIT: Don't be a ***** and accept or decline this **** within the next ten minutes. I know you're reading this and lurking this topic.
 

Kyu Puff

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lol, yes I'm going to GROAT, and I'll $10 mm you because $50 is too much for me. Also I don't know any IC player who's played all the top Falcons and thinks that the match-up is in Falcon's favor.
 

#HBC | Mac

Nobody loves me
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dylan you better not lose, the future of the ic v falcon matchup rests on your shoulder
 

TheManaLord

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@Kyu You're far from a top IC. So on our level your ****'s getting stomped the **** in. Good luck it'll be fun



edit: I'm making this match up chart based on MM's against people I disagree with. KAOSTAR ****ing mm zelda m2


@KK: ILU <3
 

Kyu Puff

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The anger of the mm has nothing to do with it, it's because TML is the best falcon ever and I'm the epitome of the IC metagame.

Edit -- LOL I may not be a top IC but I can still take games off Scar, Hax, and Darkrain. What good IC have you ever even scratched?
 

TheManaLord

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I can talk about all the random successes I've had against pros over the years. But I smoke too much and forget about them. Something I'll always remember tho is that I've never lost a set v ic's in singles tourny . And that I took 3 of chudats stock in game 1 of me n spawn v azen and chu
 

TheManaLord

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I will livestream. **** YouTube lmfao get outta here I played in like 07

but I'm posting the link on gamefaqs. You'll see how many gfaqs nuggas show up to watch. ****ing gfaqs nation represent
 

Nintendude

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TheManaLord, I am planning to go to Apex in August. I will $10 MM you my ICs vs. your Falcon.

I think it's AT WORST 55-45 for Falcon, but whatever, we'll come back to this later since it's Marth right now.

Sheik > Marth

That's all I got.
 

Dr_Strangelove

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You may call me a noob if you wish, but can someone please explain to me why the marth vs fox matchup is even?
fox's lasers, although they do rack up damage quite nicely, don't stun like falco's, and so there is no real urgency in avoiding them. You can let them hit you and just chase the fox down.
marth can chainthrow, combo and gimp fox really easily.

I know that fox's shinespike is very effective against a recovering marth, but it is much more risky, and much harder to do than almost all of marth's equivalent edgeguarding moves.


I'm clearly missing something so if someone could just point it out I can be embarassed and move on. Thanks.
 

xbombr

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Fox's juggles are pretty **** against Marth.

Uthrow -> UAir leaves Marth in a bad position since he sucks at defending below himself. Fox has a manueverability advantage and enough speed to get under defensive Marths that spam FAir.

The CG is really gay, but is only a huge problem on FD. Escaping it on a platform stage is actually somewhat viable depending on stage positioning. There's also the possibility of shining out of it at a certain % and DI...though tbh I don't know how reliable that is.

Aside from the shinespike, the Lightshield edgehog is pretty useful in the match up and Fox can just jump back on stage and BAir him back off.

There are the lasers too, but that's not really what makes it tough for Marth unless you're on DL or something.

Fox also ***** Marth on CP stages. Especially Cruise. DK64 might be an exception because of the ceiling, but idk much about Marth's abilities on that stage.
 

t3h Icy

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So are we done with Marth then? Samus and Roy can always be done later when we get to them.
 
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