THANK YOU.
You don't have to analyze every possible situation in every matchup to know that MK can't be countered. Look at his abnormally fast frame data, look at his abnormally large range, look at his even more ridiculous disjointed hitboxes, look at the speed of his kill moves, look at his recovery, look at his gimping ability
If this is the way you think match-ups, then lol.
This type of linear match-up thinking is the way NOT to think of match-ups. If you looked strictly at frame data, Diddy would **** Luigi. He doesn't. Sheik would **** Wario. She doesn't.
You actually do have to analyze every possible situation in a match-up to determine the match-up. More than that, you have to realize what situations are worth more than others. Sheik has an infinite on Wario? That obviously must mean Sheik destroys him...except for the fact that it's nearly impossible to ever land a grab on Wario.
This type of linear match-up thinking works for no character or no match-up. You post this in any match-up thread, and prepare to be laughed at. You think you can determine the Diddy vs. Snake match-up with just frame data? ICs vs. Peach with just frame data? Marth vs. D3 with just frame data? No, and if I said that to you at any other time that wasn't during the MK ban discussion, you'd laugh at me. But of course, if it makes MK sound like he obviously has no close match-ups, then we're all for it of course!1
Countered=/=bad match-up. Snake can't be countered. Wario can't be countered. But they still have bad match-ups.
Not having bad match-ups also doesn't mean that a character is banworthy, because
1) The character counterpick system isn't used or important enough in medium to high levels of play.
2) Other fighting games have had characters with no bad match-ups, and they still have healthy competitive metagames.
1) I've said this multiple times; when was the last time you actually counterpicked, not to get rid of a 65:35 or 70:30 match-up, but to put yourself at a 55:45 advantage against your opponent when you're normally looking at a 55:45 disadvantage? That's right; you probably don't. Not many people have two mains, and the people who have secondaries use them to cover their main's really bad match-ups. As a Diddy, I'm not going to face a Wario and counterpick Marth who I never use. I'm more likely to win with my Diddy, because I know the match-up a lot better and he has way more match-up experience against Wario than my Marth.
This is at mid levels of play; just look at high levels of play. You rarely will ever see someone who has more than 2 characters they use, and you'll rarely see them counterpicking. Ally didn't counterpick Falco against Atomsk just because it was a 55:45 match-up; that would be silly, and he'd just lose. He won with his Snake. Good luck being able to try to CP a pro with someone you hardly use; you're better off with your main.
So even if MK had a bad match-up (he has even ones), would you see a bunch of people suddenly CPing to that character? Let's assume it was ICs. Do you expect to see a bunch of people CPing ICs against mid level to pro MKs? No; if ICs wasn't your main, you probably wouldn't be beating any MKs with them.
2) blahblahyoucan'tcomparebrawltootherfightersitssomuchdifferentblahblah.
For one, how come people want to be accepted by other fighting games normally, but when it comes to the MK ban debate, "We're so radically different there's no comparison!!"
Secondly, I'm not about to compare Brawl to other fighters directly. I'm going to compare how in this fighitng game, there is a character with at worst even match-ups, and in other fighting games, there are characters with at worst even match-ups.
Look at SFIV Sagat. He has no bad match-ups. Yet SFIV still has a healthy competitive scene, and the metagame hasn't crippled to Sagat dittos, like people have been saying for a half a year that Brawl would be.
Heck, look at Melee for an easier comparison (more similar games). Fox has no universal bad match-ups. Marth is bad for him on FD, and Falco is bad for him on like half the stages, but there is no one character that always has an advantage on him--like Meta Knight (who arguably loses to Diddy on FD, ICs on FD/BF, Snake on Halberd, etc.). The metagame hasn't crippled to Fox dittos. There are just really good players playing Fox, just like every other character.
Having each character with a bad match-up isn't necessary to have a healthy metagame. Look at other fighters such as Melee, SFIV, SFIII: Third Strike, etc.
tl;dr: Not only is that an absolutely horrible and wrong way to look at match-ups, but him having a bad match-up isn't even necessary.
look at all the rules we've had put in to keep him in place, look at all of that.
HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Way to read all of Clai's posts directly targetting this.
There aren't rules that we've had to keep MK in place.
MK's IDC ban: Stalling is already banned. It's been banned in Brawl, it's been banned in Melee. The IDC is a form of stalling, so it's banned.
Planking: See above. MK also isn't the only character capable of planking; Game and Watch can do it too and has done it effectively in tournament sets.
WOW SO MANY RULES THAT WE HAD TO MAKE TO KEEP MK IN PLACE--oh wait.
Can you counter that? Can you counter something with no exploitable weaknesses? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, just some common sense.
1) It's not necessary to be able to counter that.
2) And yes, just because a character doesn't have exploitable weaknesses at face value, doesn't mean that another character can't beat him with certain things.
1) See the entire post.
2) Take the MK vs. Diddy match-up, for example. Most of MKs attacks (tornado, f-tilt, F-air, n-air kind of, d-tilt if not spaced) aren't safe on Diddy's shield, because of OoS glide toss or JC throws. At the very least, Diddy can get away safely if MK attacks his shield. MK doesn't have a problem about unsafe attacks on shield with a large majority of the cast, and it isn't really a weakness that he has, but it's something that Diddy is able to punish.
This is just ONE reason of why taking frame data and saying, "LOL HE'S BROKEN LOOK AT HOW QUICK HIS D-SMASH IS!!!1" is a horrible way to look at match-ups.
