BadAxel97
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2009
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- 84
Other than me...
of course I think I know what's coming now...lol
-
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Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
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of course I think I know what's coming now...lol
Master Knight DH
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2008
- Messages
- 460
The Smash competitive community in general likes to be scrubbish, that's why they want Meta Knight banned in the first place. And I sure am not afraid to say it at all. Not after considering how contageous their "no johns" bu-
(Cut for technical difficulties. We will be back in a second.)
-is when a so-called friend who claims he only wanted to be good has used it. Really hypocritical of them, really.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
*thinks about it*
All anti-ban vote Democrat. (Again, Yuna's statement.)
All anti-ban vote Democrat. (Again, Yuna's statement.)
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
BadAxel97
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2009
- Messages
- 84
So what about the independent voters?
Where would they stand in the meta knight ban vote...
they would probably vote to ban another character or something.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
answers above i guess
Hm, I though Inui was Republican.
And I can't believe this thread is almost done.
HURRY EVERYONE, ONLY A FEW MORE HOURS LEFT FOR POST COUNT +1S
I am extremely glad that this is almost over.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
*Warning: anuresym causing sarcasm used below*
Are you nuts? Everything in the world is in black and white; everyone knows that.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
tl;dr: MK himself doesn't really speed up or slow down characters meta-games just because they have even/really bad match-ups against him.
The character himself does nothing to their metagames. Just because Toon Link has a bad match-up against MK, doesn't mean that there can't be a lot of Toon Link mains experimenting with his possible options and such.
More than anything, individual players propel character's metagames. Ninjalink did it for Diddy. Snakeee did it for ZSS. Lain did it for ICs. Who were the huge notable mains of those character before then? It wasn't so much, "zomfg lol Ninjalink beat M2K that means Diddy beats MK EVERYONE PICK HIM UP NOW." It was more of Ninjalink proving that Diddy (and him) could not only be viable against MK, but Diddy in general was a tournament viable character, and Ninjalink discovered and utilized a lot of things about Diddy that no one else did.
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2005
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- 8,189
1. A 50-50 Match up.
2. Marth vs R.O.B., Snake vs DK, Snake vs D3, Peach vs D3, Lucario vs ZSS, the list goes on.
3. He has no truly even match ups. You act like you have never seen somebody win a match up that is 60-40.
4. Diddy vs MK is not even, it is MK's favor. The instant the MK actually takes the time to learn the match up it sky rockets into MK's favor. It is EASILY 60-40 MK if they take the time to learn the match up. Diddy is character that if you don't know how to handle him, you get ***** regardless of who you are.
5. If he had a bad match up then the meta would be more diverse. Because it would make more of a rock paper scissors meta. Which is a great thing! It allows for more characters to grow, because each character has different bad match ups(except meta.)
6. I don't know about other fighting communities because I am a smasher, and only a smasher. I don't like games like GG, street fighter, or halo. I just play smash. So, I don't know about their communities.
Also, since its obvious you didn't read the first post. Let me get the parts for you.
#3.
I recommend reading Praxis' list, and Fiction's document.
#4
#5
Read up.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
I meant Ally says hi as in he's the better player as in the Snake vs. MK match-up is close enough for the better player to win.
Granted, they're both close players (as Ally beat him at APEX and 2 Genesis grand finals sets, while M2K beat him in winners finals of Genesis and Evo 2K9), but yeah.
I also meant that the counterpick system isn't used enough to the point where people would automatically pick up the character who has a slight advantage against MK if they don't already lose to MK like 65-35 or worse. Snake's bad match-up is D3, and there are a lot of Snakes in tournaments as well, but hardly anyone actually practices D3 as a secondary to use against Snakes.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Here's a better one for you, Avarice. Disclaimer: I am not the end-all-be-all on matchup info, and I recognize and admit this. I'll answer as best as I can, but ultimately, I won't be able to satisfy all your questions.
2. Can't answer that one, because I don't know matchups well enough to. I doubt there are any perfect equal matchups, though; perfection is rare.
3. For part one, see above. For part 2, that was never an issue. Also, using Ally as an example invalidates the question since you're asking about matchups, and Ally v anyone is a player, not character, matchup.
4. What-ifs and possibilities are irrelevant. Unless you can prove (as a Diddy-mainer yourself) that Diddy currently goes even-to-better against MK, previous trends have to take precedence over theoretical future advantages, and the previous trend over the past year+ says that no one has surpassed (significantly, anyway) MK.
5. I'm not going to answer this because I don't think that high-level play should be the only thing we look at. (I'll address this in a second).
6. Irrelevant. Other game communities are not us. We shouldn't care what they think, as long as what we do works for us.
Now, on to the last part of 5. I don't remember ANYONE ever presenting hard evidence as to why only high-level play matters. Last time I checked, all the "proof" given was all theory and philosophy. The fact of the matter is that low- and mid-level play sustains and creates high-level play; without those lower levels, high-level play can't thrive, or even survive. A community of all low-level and mid-level play can do just fine, since that's the majority. A community without low- or mid-level play can't sustain itself and devolves to only small community stuff (try having a pot big enough to buy the plane tickets of all the pros going out of state without the low- and -mid level players buying into the pot).
The fact is that the argument that only high-level play matters in this discussion is flat out unsupported, and no one should be required to even listen to it. I know that seems akin to putting your fingers in your ear and shouting "nahnahnahnah", but, simply, no one has to even validate with a response ANY unsupported claim, and that one isn't very well supported; really, it only exists to attempt to invalidate the arguments of anyone supporting low- or mid- level players.
(This is to everyone else, and not people using argument 5): If we all ignore this horrible argument long enough, it will go away. Don't even validate it with a response.
1. A matchup where character A's theoretical total advantages over character B equals his/her theoretical total disadvantages to said character B.
2. Can't answer that one, because I don't know matchups well enough to. I doubt there are any perfect equal matchups, though; perfection is rare.
3. For part one, see above. For part 2, that was never an issue. Also, using Ally as an example invalidates the question since you're asking about matchups, and Ally v anyone is a player, not character, matchup.
4. What-ifs and possibilities are irrelevant. Unless you can prove (as a Diddy-mainer yourself) that Diddy currently goes even-to-better against MK, previous trends have to take precedence over theoretical future advantages, and the previous trend over the past year+ says that no one has surpassed (significantly, anyway) MK.
5. I'm not going to answer this because I don't think that high-level play should be the only thing we look at. (I'll address this in a second).
6. Irrelevant. Other game communities are not us. We shouldn't care what they think, as long as what we do works for us.
Now, on to the last part of 5. I don't remember ANYONE ever presenting hard evidence as to why only high-level play matters. Last time I checked, all the "proof" given was all theory and philosophy. The fact of the matter is that low- and mid-level play sustains and creates high-level play; without those lower levels, high-level play can't thrive, or even survive. A community of all low-level and mid-level play can do just fine, since that's the majority. A community without low- or mid-level play can't sustain itself and devolves to only small community stuff (try having a pot big enough to buy the plane tickets of all the pros going out of state without the low- and -mid level players buying into the pot).
The fact is that the argument that only high-level play matters in this discussion is flat out unsupported, and no one should be required to even listen to it. I know that seems akin to putting your fingers in your ear and shouting "nahnahnahnah", but, simply, no one has to even validate with a response ANY unsupported claim, and that one isn't very well supported; really, it only exists to attempt to invalidate the arguments of anyone supporting low- or mid- level players.
(This is to everyone else, and not people using argument 5): If we all ignore this horrible argument long enough, it will go away. Don't even validate it with a response.
MarKO X
Smash Champion
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1. No one who voted anti-ban has lost to anyone ever.
2. There are no alt accounts for anti-ban votes.
3. Everyone who voted pro-ban played Melee competitively.
4. Everyone who voted anti-ban is a Democrate. (lol spelling)
5. All the people who voted anti-ban despise playing online.
6. All the people who voted anti-ban have plenty of tourney experience.
7. All the people who voted anti-ban have 07 and older accounts.
8. All the people who voted anti-ban main MK or S tier.
9. All the people who voted anti-ban know every matchup, especially the ones dealing with MK.
10. All the people who voted anti-ban thinks pro-banners are scrubs.
11. No one who voted anti-ban didn't have to try to get better against Metaknight, it just naturally happened from being so godlike.
12. Everyone who voted anti-ban thinks people need to get as good as Ally.
13. All the people who voted anti-ban are brilliant, both in Brawl and in life.
14. The anti-ban vote is has no burden of proof.
15. All the people who voted anti-ban think that banning MK will lead to the banning of everything that isn't C tier or lower.
16. Everyone who voted anti-ban wins against Metaknight on a regular basis.
17. Everyone who voted anti-ban plays as a character that has an "even" matchup with MK.
18. Everyone who voted anti-ban is a Street Fighter expert.
19. Everyone who voted anti-ban comes from an area where Metaknight dominates and dominates them with their non-MK character.
20. Everyone who voted anti-ban is thinks banning techniques that make a character broken is better than actually banning the character.
2. There are no alt accounts for anti-ban votes.
3. Everyone who voted pro-ban played Melee competitively.
4. Everyone who voted anti-ban is a Democrate. (lol spelling)
5. All the people who voted anti-ban despise playing online.
6. All the people who voted anti-ban have plenty of tourney experience.
7. All the people who voted anti-ban have 07 and older accounts.
8. All the people who voted anti-ban main MK or S tier.
9. All the people who voted anti-ban know every matchup, especially the ones dealing with MK.
10. All the people who voted anti-ban thinks pro-banners are scrubs.
11. No one who voted anti-ban didn't have to try to get better against Metaknight, it just naturally happened from being so godlike.
12. Everyone who voted anti-ban thinks people need to get as good as Ally.
13. All the people who voted anti-ban are brilliant, both in Brawl and in life.
14. The anti-ban vote is has no burden of proof.
15. All the people who voted anti-ban think that banning MK will lead to the banning of everything that isn't C tier or lower.
16. Everyone who voted anti-ban wins against Metaknight on a regular basis.
17. Everyone who voted anti-ban plays as a character that has an "even" matchup with MK.
18. Everyone who voted anti-ban is a Street Fighter expert.
19. Everyone who voted anti-ban comes from an area where Metaknight dominates and dominates them with their non-MK character.
20. Everyone who voted anti-ban is thinks banning techniques that make a character broken is better than actually banning the character.
Alus
Smash Champion
Where is the love?
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
The character itself doesn't, obviously, but the number of people who pick up the character do. You can't have one person drive a metagame. You can have a person discover something but unless the person shares it with other people who use the character, then it doesn't do anything and basically just remain as "gimmicks" (a better word escapes me at the moment) for one person. For example, Psychomidget pretty much discovered all of Snake's "weapon" tricks and they were quickly adopted by everyone and their grandma thus making Snake such a formidiable opponent early on (and still to a lesser degree). An example of the opposite is how Ally does a lot of things with Snake that most people just don't really do with him like playing really aggresively. It also has to do with how well the people place (to a lesser degree) because, if they do place well while doing the things they do, I've noticed that they are usually more likely to share their findings even if they are minor.
Truth be told, the Diddy community has always been very active and attentive with a lot of experienced members while the Ice Climber community is probably one of the least popular but has some of the most experienced players of any character board. That kind of has to do a lot with it too, if your community has a lot of well ranking and experienced players then your character develops that much faster which is why some characters, like Mario, Wolf, and Ike have either really slow developing metagames at the moment (Mario) or are getting worse (Ike and Wolf). In a nutshell, this describes most of the cast at this present time.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
lol's in above
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Good job.
I meant, how do you know it's exactly even? People say that MU's like Marth vs. R.O.B., Diddy vs. Marth, etc., are even without worry, yet as soon as someone suggests that Snake vs. MK or ICs vs. MK is even, people go nuts and say it isn't. This was a more rhetorical question if anything.
Refer to 1
Way to be specific and answer my question at all.
I asked how do you know that Snake vs. MK isn't even, ICs vs. MK isn't even, or Diddy vs. MK isn't even? Do you know the actual match-ups well enough at high levels of play? Do you have evidence to support your claims otherwise?
Saying, "HE HAS NO EVEN MATCH-UPS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T," isn't convincing at all.
Refer to three. You weren't specific, at all. How exactly is it in MKs favor? What actually makes it in his favor? I'd like an answer like, "MKs ground attacks trump his options blahblahblah," not, "HE JUST WINS EASILY DUHHHH."
I'm assuming you mean learning how to use bananas as knowing the match-up. Match-ups don't consider week old players, they consider top players, AKA players who know the match-up well. Diddy's banana metagame isn't, "lol throw banana they trip lol combos," and general anti-banana game isn't, "ohnuez banana wat we do?"
You're basically saying that top level MKs don't know the match-up well, which is obviously why ADHD is able to beat so many top level MKs. Dojo (who seconds Diddy and got 3rd with Diddy/Kirby for dittos in hobo17), lost to ADHD 2-0 in an MM at Genesis. I'm pretty sure he knows the ins and outs of Diddy pretty well, if no other MK does.
Also, you didn't directly target what I said about the match-up. Diddy vs. MK is already a close match-up to the point where the better player wins. Diddy has known techs (instant throwing, single banana locking, mid-range spacing and pressure) that have been recently explored and are fairly new to his high level metagame, but can be commonly incorporated in time. What techs does MK have like this? All he has is theorycraft that there might be things that can put him ahead in the match-up.
Meta Knight does NOT slow down the metagame of characters.
I don't see the metagame becoming so much more diverse if he had a 45-55 match-up not in his favor. We'd still see MK being in the top spots along with Snake, as they're the best character. Not surprising at all.
I also still don't see this as being a direct repsonse to what I said. The character counterpick system is hardly used at high levels of play, so why does it matter if he gets a 45-55 match-up in the future? The only people winning it would be the mains of that character, and even then not often, as people win match-ups like that against them all the time. It isn't important for him to have a bad match-up.
Melee Fox had no universal bad match-ups. Marth was bad on FD, and his match-up with Falco was stage dependent, but he had no match-ups that were bad on every single stage.
Also, I'm saying that it's possible to have a healthy competitive metagame even though a non-counterable character is the best character, as proven with these other games.
Read both. Swordgard already targetted Fiction's document and refuted points in it (and it has points found also in Praxis's list). All the list does is prove that he's a good character with a good moveset. Congratulations. Doesn't mean, "ZOMFG TRANSCENDENT PRIORITY LOL BROKEN BANBANBAN"
Neither of those targetted the posts that I had. For 4, Diddy has KNOWN techs that can help him improve, not, "oh well it could get better,"--it will get better. For 5, I'm not talking about how MK doesn't break the CP system, I'm talking about how the character CP system isn't nearly important enough at high levels of play for it to matter.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
While I know that his whole post was sarcasm, I wanna critisize on lil thing:
Like, adding a patch that installs Meta Knight onto everyone's Brawl disc, because he isn't on it?
Okay, let me get this straight. Are you implying that Anti-Ban wants to change something in the game?
Like, adding a patch that installs Meta Knight onto everyone's Brawl disc, because he isn't on it?
Alus
Smash Champion
Which is why asking this is dumb... *not saying that this thread is totally pointless.*
REL38
Smash Lord
"5. All the people who voted anti-ban despise playing online."
I tried my absolute best to like online, but I still hate it.
8. All the people who voted anti-ban main MK or S tier.
I main A Tier (Kirby, ROB) and S Tier (Snake) :D
9. All the people who voted anti-ban know every matchup, especially the ones dealing with MK.
I'm only familiar with the MK match-up. Partial with everyone else and none with the bottom teir characters.
13. All the people who voted anti-ban are brilliant, both in Brawl and in life.
I didn't need a rule telling me something I already know to be true /sarcasm
14. The anti-ban vote is has no burden of proof.
Lmao
It's funny how much of this is actually true.
I tried my absolute best to like online, but I still hate it.
8. All the people who voted anti-ban main MK or S tier.
I main A Tier (Kirby, ROB) and S Tier (Snake) :D
9. All the people who voted anti-ban know every matchup, especially the ones dealing with MK.
I'm only familiar with the MK match-up. Partial with everyone else and none with the bottom teir characters.
13. All the people who voted anti-ban are brilliant, both in Brawl and in life.
I didn't need a rule telling me something I already know to be true /sarcasm
14. The anti-ban vote is has no burden of proof.
Lmao
It's funny how much of this is actually true.
betterthanbonds9
Smash Ace
1. 50/50
2. How about MK dittos?
no matchup is truly even because lets face it, at a certain point a player makes the difference in the matchup so I'm just gonna stick with a simple definition above: 50/50. If it has been show that a matchup can fluctuate between one side to the other mid match and typically due to players adapting, then that matchup is close enough in my opinion to be 50/50, they are won not by the character, but by the player's use of the character... Marth v DK tends to be a good one imo.3. You want me to prove something that is technically unprovable by any human, at best i can say that if top players say he doesn't, then I'll follow their word. It's a "Show me there's no giant spagheti monster" kind of problem. Or even "prove that there is no life on another planet." At some point it comes down to players, but im pretty sure that the fact that there is no COUNTER to MK that shows that he has no disadvantaged matchups, thus the best is even, and matchups that are considered even against MK still tend to go in MK's favor (diddy for example). And yes, Ally wins everything, good job for riding the best player in the world's bandwagon.
4. Because 1 diddy in the top 25 (adhd) really proves that diddy is really good. Last i checked he lost to tyrant too...maybe you should reread fiction:
5. It honestly isn't used much, why?
Code:
1. Ally - Snake - $2,336
2. M2K - Meta Knight - $1,460
3. Tyrant - Meta Knight - $876
4. Dojo - Meta Knight - $584
5. ADHD - Diddy Kong - $233
6. DEHF - Falco - $175
7. Fiction - Wario - $118
8. SK92 - Falco - $59
9. Judge - Meta Knight
9. Lain - Ice Climbers/King Dedede
9. Ultimate Razer - Snake
9. UTD Zach - Game & Watch6. Be specific so i can argue something. Tell me a game, I'll argue it, but dont give me something with many possiblities because i could cover 999 games and you'd just come back with the 1 game i didn't cover and thus disprove the argument. So tell me a game so I dont fall into this ***ty trap you're trying to pull :D.
not to mention: why should we care necesarily about other games? We aren't them, they aren't us
'V'
Smash Lord
Brawl broken...
UberMario
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2009
- Messages
- 3,312
How is that true (Except 9 and 13)? I main Mario, have played plenty of players with amazing skill (not just with Meta, but with their other mains as well), love wi-fi,
OFY
Sonic main since 08'
I think you should provide the long answer.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Meta Knight is on the Brawl disc. He is on the game.
The Pro-Ban side desires to change something (ban Meta Knight from tournaments), therefore it's the responsibility of Pro-Ban to proof that Meta Knight is ban-worthy.
Anti-Ban actually would have nothing to do, since they want to keep that status quo.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
About Meta Knight, yes.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Well, technically, the only thing the anti-ban HAS to do is provide counter-argument to the pro-ban side. As long as they can invalidate the whole of the pro-ban argument, they're golden, but no, they don't have to provide any initial proof until the pro-ban side provides a water-tight argument with supporting evidence.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
That's not what he's saying. He's saying that, in this kind of debate, the opposing side traditionally doesn't have the burden of proof. Basically, the pro-side needs more evidence to support their side while, in traditional debate terms, the anti-side just has to ask for more evidence from the pro-side.
GigaBowserXyZ
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2009
- Messages
- 454
poll closes tommorrow and i don't if sbr already voted.
UberMario
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2009
- Messages
- 3,312
What hasn't been said? He's:
-part of the game
-can be gimped like any other character
-is light
-has several moves which no one uses
-has relatively sub-par air speed
-was considered D tier material (albeit for three months)
-has a grab-game which is on par with the others.
-has smash attacks which can be dodged
In that aspect, he's quite similar to other characters.
also, he has no projectiles, or other long-ranged attacks
Ironically, the stages that he doesn't fare well on (Green Greens, Bridge of Eldin, Onett)
are banned (thanks to another character).
If Green Greens was counter-pickable, Meta-Knight wouldn't always counter-ban Halberd during match-ups.
I understand that most (if not all) pro-ban people hate his high priority, multiple recoveries, and down smash, and I find that a reasonable counter to the anti-ban movement.
AKARed
Smash Apprentice
I just realized pro has to work harder in this debate than con.
How can you base say this when most of the top placing Snakes, diddys, & falcos were knocked out by mostly by the top 3 mk players. No one ever said that these characters beat mk, they said that these characters have better matchups against mk than the rest of the cast.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
- Status