• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

Status
Not open for further replies.

Zinc Elemental

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
366
Location
SoCal
That's one of the smartest things I've heard about the Tier list, hell--that is the smartest.
But personally, I don't care for it. It causes too much contreversy, which there is enough of in the gaming community, not to mention smash. And can be paraphrased to just about anything.
The Tier list is there to show results not statistics.
How exactly can it be paraphrased to about anything? The list, if not completely accurate, is pretty **** close. Even if you think Mario or Bowser or Marth or whomever should be slightly higher or slightly lower, they are very close to where the general consensus places them. Mario is bad, Marth is relatively good, and Bowser is in the middle. Try to use tht list to argue that Ganondorf is good. Go on, try it.

Clearly, more people play Meta Knight better than people who play Captian Falcon, simple as that. It doesn't mean nor imply that Meta Knight is the best character, nor that Captian Falcon is the worst. Neither does it mean that Meta Knight is a better character than Captian Falcon. Some people fail to understand that and by proxy, fail at this thread.
You're mixing up cause and effect here. The reason (or at least the major one) that so many people play MK is how good he is. Also, please, please, please do not try to tell me that MK and CF are equally good characters. CF is such an incredibly limited set of options that he really has NOTHING on most of the top characters. A good MK will always do better than an equally good CF. It's not even remotely close.

Yes, skill is still the biggest deciding factor. Taking MK to a touranment is far from a free win, and an excellent Samus can come out on top as well. However, the person playing Samus has put themself at an inherent disadvantage by playing Samus. This doesn't mean they can't overcome this character gap, but it means they two can't be even in skill and still have an even match.

Just learn to player.
I'm not even sure what to say to this.
 

Legan

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Messages
1,427
Location
St Louis, Missouri
I absolutely love this tier list. It really has worked in my favor for the most part seeing that link is considered so terrible. No one knows what to do against him because practically no one plays him at the higher lvls. It sucks that hell inevitably move up though.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
lol...if only that were actually true...
In some ways, it's not to far from the truth. It's hard for a character ton stay on top. As time goes on, people will find new tricks and can counter the character. They learn how the character fights as well as new characters who can beat him/her.

It's all a matter of time.
 

Mario_ 101

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
922
Location
    
Love you so much for that. <3 But I have to object to Mario being low. I've seen him in action and he's pretty good when used properly.
I agree with the guys above me though. :/ Whether the characters are high tier or not, people will play who they want to, for whatever reasons they want to. Some reaons may even be that the character looks awsum or has a good special or WHATEVER reason you choose to be that character.
lol u sir have made an excellent first post. Only problem is that most ppl think it should b their character moved up instead. :/
 

Retroend

Retro Gamer
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Messages
1,484
Location
Orlando, Florida
NNID
Re7ron
3DS FC
3669-1436-3958
Switch FC
SW-5947-2141-6122
i just wish ddd didn't have so much priorities with his attacks and chain grab. he's a gay fat *******. i wish sakiurai wasn't so bias with just because he voiced ddd. kirby should really move up as well as fox.
 

Morrigan

/!\<br>\¡/
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
18,681
I wouldn't be surprised if he drops to top of High in the next years. EDIT: well not that much, but a place or two...
 

ROOOOY!

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
3,118
Location
Lincolnshire, England.
NNID
Gengite
3DS FC
5456-0280-5804
Falco seems the obvious contender for me.
If Wario mains find any way out of their grab release predicament they have an outsiders chance, too.

As it happens, I also feel G&W is a little over rated, lol.
 

ROOOOY!

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
3,118
Location
Lincolnshire, England.
NNID
Gengite
3DS FC
5456-0280-5804
Light, poor grab game, crap projectile...

Okay, maybe there's not much wrong with him >_>.
However, I only said that becuase I don't feel that if dedede dropped G&W deserves third, that's all.
He probably deserves where he is now tbh.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
lol there's no way Dedede will drop. He has overall the worst match-up of the top tiers (lol which isn't even true...ROBs are worse) but the best vs the rest of top. He only loses to MK and Falco (by a small margin) but wins vs Snake, ROB and goes even with Marth (slight adv for DDD) and GaW (according to very respectable brawlers like Hylian and others...). He also wins vs Wario - one of the most overused characters
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
DDD's matchups are amazing. It's the fact he gets beaten by random low/mid tiers who are too fast/small for him to handle that make people underestimate him.

Diddy Kong, Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Olimar... there are plenty of characters that threaten him. However, DDD is a solid enough character to conquer any matchup, even Metaknight.
 

1048576

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
3,417
Meta needs his own tier, then an empty tier below that.

GW D-Throw to whatever is good.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
Justblaze, how do you explain Dedede having a 55:45 match-up in his favour vs Marth, if he can't CG.

Seriously Dedede has tons of other stuff: Good Recovery, heavy weight, quite fast (yes!!!), disjointed hitboxes, h4x range (lol ftilt), a spammable projectile (that blocks everything else!) and his grab game is 100% unfiltered **** even withou CG (lol 1 jab + bthrow = 20% free, safe dmg)
 

Endless Nightmares

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 23, 2006
Messages
4,090
Location
MN
Not when 92% of his offensive capabilities stem from CG'ing. Have you ever tried DDD's CG against MK?
Have you ever tried tech-chasing Metaknight with dthrow? Have you ever tried utilting MK at 90% and watching him die helplessly off the top? Have you ever tried keeping metaknight at bay with well-spaced fairs, bairs, ftilts, dtilts and double-jumped dair out of shield? Dedede has many excellent tools vs metaknight. he is my MK counter
 

Lib3r4t3

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
949
Location
Penticton's finest!
56k is pretty right. Dedede doesn't just have his CG. He's got a LOT more, mostly stemming to his OTHER grabs, his devasting range, and his broken priority.

Do you still use Wario, 56k?
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
4,453
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
The tier list I go by, which I hope people put into consideration

Top (Dominating characters, the best in this game.)
Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Total: 3

High (Highly competitive characters with many more advantages than weaknesses)
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf
Fox
Olimar
Toon Link
Luigi
Zelda
Total: 18

Middle (Balanced characters)
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Peach
Ike
Sheik
Samus
Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Lucas
Ness
Total: 11. (Or 14 if you want to count PT as 3 different characters.)

Low (Characters with flaws and alot of bad match up disadvantages)
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon
Total: 5

These are in no particular order. They just all belong in the same tier group.
 

Shy Guy 86

Smash Ace
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
848
Top (Dominating characters, the best in this game.)
Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Total: 3

High (Highly competitive characters with many more advantages than weaknesses)
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf
Fox
Olimar
Toon Link
Luigi
Zelda
Total: 18

Middle (Balanced characters)
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Peach
Ike
Sheik
Samus
Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Lucas
Ness
Total: 11. (Or 14 if you want to count PT as 3 different characters.)

Low (Characters with flaws and alot of bad match up disadvantages)
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon
Total: 5

These are in no particular order. They just all belong in the same tier group.
So your saying that MK is equal to Snake or DDD?
 

ROOOOY!

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
3,118
Location
Lincolnshire, England.
NNID
Gengite
3DS FC
5456-0280-5804
Low (Characters with flaws and alot of bad match up disadvantages)
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon
Total: 5

These are in no particular order. They just all belong in the same tier group.
Sonic, IMO, is not in the same league as those 4.
Not at all.
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
4,453
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
So your saying that MK is equal to Snake or DDD?
Yes I am saying that because. It just seems like MK is the best out of those because he is MUCH MUCH more overplayed than Snake and DDD but actually they belong in the same tier because those 3 have hardly any weaknesses.

Sonic, IMO, is not in the same league as those 4.
Not at all.
Well Sonic does have alot of bad match ups, thats what keeps him in low tier with those 4, because those 4 also have alot of bad match ups.
 

Lex Crunch

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
338
Location
Alameda, CA
I don't know why tier lists exist. Maybe everyone sees something I don't, but the way I see it, they're just silly and don't serve any real purpose, nor can they ever be "accurate". What's the point?
 

metafalcon

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
3
Location
Bogotá
I like the tier but I think Mario must be higher. And yes captain falcon has been nerfed. But seriously toon link and olimar should be higher than WARIO. good list
 

Sukai

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,899
Location
turn around....
How exactly can it be paraphrased to about anything? The list, if not completely accurate, is pretty **** close. Even if you think Mario or Bowser or Marth or whomever should be slightly higher or slightly lower, they are very close to where the general consensus places them. Mario is bad, Marth is relatively good, and Bowser is in the middle. Try to use tht list to argue that Ganondorf is good. Go on, try it.
You seem to have missed my point that the list can indeed be paraphrased to anything, you just gave me your spin on it.
I can't explain that Ganondorf is a good character using the list, part of why I don't care for it, it labels characters as good or bad and sparks arguements. It depends on the player, simple as that.
People often assume that the character's moveset immediately reflects off of the player's ability to use them, when it should be the other way around.


You're mixing up cause and effect here. The reason (or at least the major one) that so many people play MK is how good he is. Also, please, please, please do not try to tell me that MK and CF are equally good characters. CF is such an incredibly limited set of options that he really has NOTHING on most of the top characters. A good MK will always do better than an equally good CF. It's not even remotely close.
It depends on the player and their ability to play.
You persay see C F as a limited set of options, but what if a C.F. player were to enter a tournament and own like mad?
He could widen the possibilities for him and spark new ideas.
And don't say thats impossible, because just about anything is possible in the smash world.
After all, in Melee, everyone thought the I.C.s sucked, that is until a certain someone cae in and widened the eyes of countless people.
And for the record, most people picked MK because they preemptively decided to play him since he was announced.
Yes, skill is still the biggest deciding factor. Taking MK to a touranment is far from a free win, and an excellent Samus can come out on top as well. However, the person playing Samus has put themself at an inherent disadvantage by playing Samus. This doesn't mean they can't overcome this character gap, but it means they two can't be even in skill and still have an even match.
Don't characterize general skill with character pros and cons.
They can indeed be at equal skill and fight equally, if not then they aren't equals.
Skill is summed up to a simple 3 phase analogy.
Circumstance, Personal Input, and Reaction.
Circumstance is the situation you're in.
Personal Input is your thought on how to go about it.
And Reaction is the action you take, typically the physical result of Personal Input.
The player with the higher P.I. and reaction is the one with more skill as they can alter the Circumstance to their advantage. So with equal skill, regardless of the characters chosen to fight, it can be anyone's match.

I'm not even sure what to say to this.
How about, "I agree"?
Learning to player is simply relying on the steps I gave above to win a match, in contrast to trying to spam smash attacks and fairs to get a cheap and easy kill.
 

Alphicans

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
9,291
Location
Edmonton, AB
Meta needs his own tier, then an empty tier below that.

GW D-Throw to whatever is good.
Honestly isn't anyone else sick of hearing "Metaknight deserves his own tier"? He's the best, obviously, but he's not a full tier ahead of snake, GaW, falco, ROB, and DDD.
 

Natch

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
649
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
You seem to have missed my point that the list can indeed be paraphrased to anything, you just gave me your spin on it.
I can't explain that Ganondorf is a good character using the list, part of why I don't care for it, it labels characters as good or bad and sparks arguements. It depends on the player, simple as that.
People often assume that the character's moveset immediately reflects off of the player's ability to use them, when it should be the other way around.



It depends on the player and their ability to play.
You persay see C F as a limited set of options, but what if a C.F. player were to enter a tournament and own like mad?
He could widen the possibilities for him and spark new ideas.
And don't say thats impossible, because just about anything is possible in the smash world.
After all, in Melee, everyone thought the I.C.s sucked, that is until a certain someone cae in and widened the eyes of countless people.
And for the record, most people picked MK because they preemptively decided to play him since he was announced.


Don't characterize general skill with character pros and cons.
They can indeed be at equal skill and fight equally, if not then they aren't equals.
Skill is summed up to a simple 3 phase analogy.
Circumstance, Personal Input, and Reaction.
Circumstance is the situation you're in.
Personal Input is your thought on how to go about it.
And Reaction is the action you take, typically the physical result of Personal Input.
The player with the higher P.I. and reaction is the one with more skill as they can alter the Circumstance to their advantage. So with equal skill, regardless of the characters chosen to fight, it can be anyone's match.



How about, "I agree"?
Learning to player is simply relying on the steps I gave above to win a match, in contrast to trying to spam smash attacks and fairs to get a cheap and easy kill.

Holy ****ing ****balls Batman!

Srsly, dude. Tier lists automatically assume that both people playing against each other are of equal skill, and know everything there is to know about the matchup. So the "no one knows how to play a good Captain Falcon since there aren't many of them" argument or something like that doesn't apply.

Knowing that, tiers are based on the following:

1. Tourney Results
2. Overall Matchups against the cast
3. Some abstract stuff in I'm not sure of.

However, skill plays an indirect role in the development of tiers. If one is skilled with a character, they may very well boost their tourney results, or find some new AT for them that really helps their game. Now, it's not reasonable to say CF=MK. While new things are being discovered all the time, with each day that passes, the chance of it being "the s***" decreases. That is to say, with each day that passes, we learn more about Brawl. The more we know about Brawl, the less we'll have left to learn.

Tier lists are more or less going to stay where they're at, but it's always possible for a single character to make a huge leap up or down in the tier list. An example of a downward leap is the chain grab release on Ness and Lucas. And example of an upward leap is the recent discovery that Yoshi might actually go neutral with MK. While that won't make him top tier, it will certainly boost his current standing.

I'm not going to argue back, because if you are not convinced by this, you won't be convinced by anything else I may say.

MAIN POINT:

Tier lists are a representation of where the characters were at on the day the list was released. They are not absolute. On August 1st-based on what we understood about the metagame-this is where each character was at.
 

ROOOOY!

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
3,118
Location
Lincolnshire, England.
NNID
Gengite
3DS FC
5456-0280-5804
...surprising :rolleyes:
Shut up. You'll find Sonic mains (bar one or two >_>) are the least bias around. We don't stupidly argue match-ups that obviously aren't in our favour like some boards do. We're very aware of what Sonic's weaknesses are, and do our best to get around them. Factor in that Sonic's tournament placing (if you're following Ankoku's thread) has consistantly been above at least 15 characters in every season (other than the very first >_>) and most Sonic mains find 5th bottom a joke.
We used to argue, most Sonic mains. Now I'm like, the only one who does, because I'm the only one who can put up with people's silly ignorant rubbish. It's like every day I'm having to tell people that they're talking crap when they call him light or saying he doesn't have a projectile.

Well Sonic does have alot of bad match ups, thats what keeps him in low tier with those 4, because those 4 also have alot of bad match ups.
There are many characters with much worse match-ups than Sonic. He only gets hard countered by about 4 characters, where as the rest of his bad match-ups are more or less all 60-40.
He also has a lot of neutral match-ups, and a lot more ones in his favour than many of the characters immediately above him.
 

Barge

All I want is a custom title
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
7,542
Location
San Diego
Honestly isn't anyone else sick of hearing "Metaknight deserves his own tier"? He's the best, obviously, but he's not a full tier ahead of snake, GaW, falco, ROB, and DDD.
If you base it off the character rankings, he has over 650 points on snake, and over 1100 on everyone else.
 

Zinc Elemental

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
366
Location
SoCal
You seem to have missed my point that the list can indeed be paraphrased to anything, you just gave me your spin on it.
I can't explain that Ganondorf is a good character using the list, part of why I don't care for it, it labels characters as good or bad and sparks arguements. It depends on the player, simple as that.
People often assume that the character's moveset immediately reflects off of the player's ability to use them, when it should be the other way around.
It's not as simple as that! Skill is not the only factor. You can't possibly try to defend that it is. Even if you were slightly better than me, you will never beat my MK with Captain Falcon. There has to be a GIANT skill difference for it to even be a remotely even match-up. With everyone else it's just a sliding scale. If you're slightly better than me with DDD, your DDD might be about even with my MK, since I had the advantage there in the first place.

It depends on the player and their ability to play.
You persay see C F as a limited set of options, but what if a C.F. player were to enter a tournament and own like mad?
He could widen the possibilities for him and spark new ideas.
And don't say thats impossible, because just about anything is possible in the smash world.
After all, in Melee, everyone thought the I.C.s sucked, that is until a certain someone cae in and widened the eyes of countless people.
And for the record, most people picked MK because they preemptively decided to play him since he was announced.
IC had a lot of capabilities for potential. ICs always have been full of potential as a result of the uniqueness of their character (specifically, the fact that they're two characters). That's a result of it being difficult to take advantage of that. You know why that IC player dominated? Because he was good. That doesn't mean that melee ICs are equivalent to Fox.

Now, look at CF. Tell me, what the heck kind of potential can you see trapped in that manly body?

Don't characterize general skill with character pros and cons.
They can indeed be at equal skill and fight equally, if not then they aren't equals.
Skill is summed up to a simple 3 phase analogy.
Circumstance, Personal Input, and Reaction.
Circumstance is the situation you're in.
Personal Input is your thought on how to go about it.
And Reaction is the action you take, typically the physical result of Personal Input.
The player with the higher P.I. and reaction is the one with more skill as they can alter the Circumstance to their advantage. So with equal skill, regardless of the characters chosen to fight, it can be anyone's match.
I don't see how that logic works. Skill allows you to manipulate the situation, but by placing yourself in an inherently disadvantaged situation to start, how does that mean you have an even match against someone who is equally skilled at manipulating the situation to their benefit.

Can you deny the difference in character flaws? Each has disadvantages and advantages. There isn't a perfect character, of course. However, some have a lot more advantages and fewer disadvantages than other characters.

For example, let's list MK's disadvantages:
He's light.
He can't kill aat low percentages unless he gets a gimp.

Not a long list.

Now, try doing that for Ganondorf. Let's see how they compare.

How about, "I agree"?
Learning to player is simply relying on the steps I gave above to win a match, in contrast to trying to spam smash attacks and fairs to get a cheap and easy kill.
First of all, it's "learn to play". Second, are you trying to insult my ability to play the game? Is that at all releant to the discussion or do you have any reason to do so?
Third, being "cheap" means nothing in competitive play. If you can get easy kills from fairs and dsmash with MK, why the hell wouldn't you take advantage of that? Of course learning a character will make you much more competitive with him. However, Captain Falcon mains will have to put in a ridiculous amount of skill into their character in order to even approach having a fair match-up against the top characters.

This list is based off of high level play against evenly matched opponets. You can't make the arguement that the list is bs because the CF can always get much better than the MK. The list assumes that isn't the case.
 

Deathwish238

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
156
Location
Florida
Sorry man, sonic players are only in it for the smash ball. Without it they are easy kills.





R.O.B. is what a real man plays.
LOL!! ok that hurt...that hurt bro...lmfaoo! but nah sonic really depends on out playing the guy, predicting, punishing, tech-chasing, and mind games with spin dashes and popping up ur shield when running. f-tilt helps a lot too. w/e if u want to see sonic's + and - i think tenki has a link or teh umby i don't remember. but yeah seriously sonic's recovery and running speed automatically should move him at least into the bottom of the low tier. but w/e does it really matter anyways?? more bragging rights for us...he should go to steak tier which everybody knows is right above metaknight tier lmfao >_<

oh and yeah smash ball sonic IS #1 haha!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom