Using Mario Circuit As A Playable Stage

rPSIvysaur · Jun 24, 2010

GR>Walk-off on Ness and Lucas.

T_T

I'll go jump off a tier-list.

Eddie G · Jun 24, 2010

6Mizu said:
I somewhat agree with this...but no one, including me, will consider this a good enough arguement.

On a another note, if we do allow this stage think of the amount of characters that will be "broken" here and the chracters that will get ***** hard here.
Ex: any characters with strong base knockback/ high knockback growth throws or moves will auto-**** here.

Hard to really think of/assume anything at this point until it's been tested in tournament play with competent players at the helm.

-Vocal- · Jun 24, 2010

KBizzle said:
Hard to really think of/assume anything at this point until it's been tested in tournament play with competent players at the helm.

Hey, would it be adequate to try this out at the tourney this Saturday? I don't mean as part of the tournament (too short notice) but in serious friendlies between some of the better players. I know friendlies aren't tourney play, but it would at least give us a point of reference.

Pierce7d · Jun 24, 2010

Thiocyanide said:
Maybe the people you're playing against don't abuse the guaranteed lag you have to have to land on a platform or drop through it? Playing Orion's Falco on Battlefield is probably the most frustrating experience I've ever had playing Brawl. Hell, I CP falcos to FD (And win, for the record) because of the stupidity that is platform shielding.

And if you approach Olimar he's not going to shield, he's going to run away and pivot grab or run under you and upsmash, depending on the height you're at. Or, if he wants to be a huge ****, downB your hit and punish your hitlag.

Using a platform to assist an approach doesn't necessarily mean starting on the platform either.

Luigi player said:
The stage is way too broken...

-Vocal- said:
And I agree that the platforms help. It's one more variable for your opponent to have to try to predict correctly, and if he doesn't then that one variable just aided your escape/approach. I'm still worried about the cars providing an overhead wall of damage, but that's just a different issue.

The first part is an excellent response to what Cyanide was talking about. As for an overhead wall of damage? It's on too set of an interval for me to really complain about it. It's also not THAT devestating, and will not kill.

6Mizu said:
On a another note, if we do allow this stage think of the amount of characters that will be "broken" here and the chracters that will get ***** hard here.
Ex: any characters with strong base knockback/ high knockback growth throws or moves will auto-**** here.

I feel as though characters with powerful camping games will excel here, as opposed to your group of high BKB options. The only character that fits into both of these categories is Olimar, who I have begun discussion on. When analyzing stages like this, Olimar is always the FIRST character I consider, because honestly, he ***** people trying to do it to him (DK is SUCH a non-issue when you have D3, Falco, and Olimar to consider), and he does it himself very well.

RocketPSIence said:
GR>Walk-off on Ness and Lucas.

T_T

I'll go jump off a tier-list.

I refuse to ban a stage because there are characters who can CGed by the whole cast. Quite clearly, this is a bad character to begin with, doesn't affect the metagame, and should not have the ruleset surgically changed to cater to them.

I also think Ness would do well here. I'm actually not that knowledgeable about Lucas.

Eddie G · Jun 24, 2010

-Vocal- said:
Hey, would it be adequate to try this out at the tourney this Saturday? I don't mean as part of the tournament (too short notice) but in serious friendlies between some of the better players. I know friendlies aren't tourney play, but it would at least give us a point of reference.

Sure, I'd be willing to try, and I'll spread the word around while I'm there. :3

bigman40 · Jun 24, 2010

If people are complaining about the walkoffs like that (taking vocal's post from earlier this morning), then why don't you consider Yoshi's Island Melee? It's extremely static and it's exactly as you wanted Mario Circuit to be.

-Vocal- · Jun 24, 2010

bigman40 said:
If people are complaining about the walkoffs like that (taking vocal's post from earlier this morning), then why don't you consider Yoshi's Island Melee? It's extremely static and it's exactly as you wanted Mario Circuit to be.

I may be mistaken about the actual reasons why it is banned, but this is my reasoning:

1. The blocks are a constant obstacle and the hitstun from hitting one could be enough of an opening to give your opponent a frame advantage, thus handing him/her a hit that rightfully should have been yours.

2. The blocks in the floor cause some moves to be unnecserialy dangerous. Zero Suit Samus' and G&W's dair come to mind.

3. The steep inclines interfere with ordinary play. This essentially nerfs characters with more horizontal movesets.

The incline is the biggest issue for me. Pierce probably knows more about why the Backroom has it banned.

EDIT: @KBizzle: sweet :3

Pierce7d · Jun 24, 2010

I am pro YI:M, but I haven't tested it enough to know if Olimar is broken there.

-Vocal- · Jun 24, 2010

Pierce7d said:
I am pro YI:M, but I haven't tested it enough to know if Olimar is broken there.

It's always Olimar that's the broken one, if it's not MK it's Oli. Guess I should be happy about that :chuckle:

6Mizu · Jun 24, 2010

Pierce7d said:
Using a platform to assist an approach doesn't necessarily mean starting on the platform either.

The first part is an excellent response to what Cyanide was talking about. As for an overhead wall of damage? It's on too set of an interval for me to really complain about it. It's also not THAT devestating, and will not kill.

I feel as though characters with powerful camping games will excel here, as opposed to your group of high BKB options. The only character that fits into both of these categories is Olimar, who I have begun discussion on. When analyzing stages like this, Olimar is always the FIRST character I consider, because honestly, he ***** people trying to do it to him (DK is SUCH a non-issue when you have D3, Falco, and Olimar to consider), and he does it himself very well.

I refuse to ban a stage because there are characters who can CGed by the whole cast. Quite clearly, this is a bad character to begin with, doesn't affect the metagame, and should not have the ruleset surgically changed to cater to them.

I also think Ness would do well here. I'm actually not that knowledgeable about Lucas.

yea..I guess your right.(about what I said).
But this disscussion will go no where if there no influence from well-known TOs and what not. I have no trouble with trying the stage out...but we need others to accept it.
But don't get me wrong I didn't say I liked it or dislike it... Just that I'm willing to try it.

Eddie G · Jun 24, 2010

-Vocal- said:
I may be mistaken about the actual reasons why it is banned, but this is my reasoning:

1. The blocks are a constant obstacle and the hitstun from hitting one could be enough of an opening to give your opponent a frame advantage, thus handing him/her a hit that rightfully should have been yours.

2. The blocks in the floor cause some moves to be unnecserialy dangerous. Zero Suit Samus' and G&W's dair come to mind.

3. The steep inclines interfere with ordinary play. This essentially nerfs characters with more horizontal movesets.

The incline is the biggest issue for me. Pierce probably knows more about why the Backroom has it banned.

EDIT: @KBizzle: sweet :3

Sounds like counterpick material to me. People shouldn't discuss a counterpick stage's legality with the idea of perfect balance in mind. Only over the top elements/layouts should warrant a stage as illegal material, but small factors like an incline on the right, two blocks in the air near the center, and a set of blocks on the ground in the center are not all that bad. Hardly intrusive to be frank.

If the blocks on the ground bother some people, just think of them as a similar obstacle/feature to Brinstar's disintegrating piece of the stage near the center. It's just as discouraging of some characters' dairs/groundbased attacks (such as Peach's d-smash) as the blocks on Yoshi's are, therefore I do not understand why the blocks should be seen any differently. That's the situation that most counterpicks will present to more than a handful of characters: the need to switch things around from whatever their base game is.

In fact, I've come to believe that not even MK can safely maintain his base playstyle on some of these stages that were hastily banned as opposed to him being able to on most variations of legal stagelists I see today. However, I do not consider MK as a superior deciding factor in discussing most groundbased counterpick stages, I just wanted to point out that there's a possibility that even he may not be universally flexible with a more diverse (albeit reasonable/not insane) stage arrangement or a couple of extra stage additions.

6Mizu · Jun 24, 2010

6Mizu said:
yea..I guess your right.(about what I said).
But this disscussion will go no where if there no influence from well-known TOs and what not. I have no trouble with trying the stage out...but we need others to accept it.
But don't get me wrong I didn't say I liked it or dislike it... Just that I'm willing to try it.

Pierce do you think any of the big names would be up for having this legal?
I haven't played on this stage since my "items on free for all days" sk I have a question isn't the ceiling pretty low here?

-Vocal- · Jun 24, 2010

KBizzle said:
Sounds like counterpick material to me. People shouldn't discuss a counterpick stage's legality with the idea of perfect balance in mind. Only over the top elements/layouts should warrant a stage as illegal material, but small factors like an incline on the right, two blocks in the air near the center, and a set of blocks on the ground in the center are not all that bad. Hardly intrusive to be frank.

Hmm. This has made me rethink my philosophy on counterpicks.

KBizzle said:
If the blocks on the ground bothers some people, just think of them as a similar obstacle/feature to Brinstar's disintegrating piece of the stage near the center. It's just as discouraging of some characters' dairs as the blocks on Yoshi's are, therefore I do not understand why the blocks should be seen any differently. That's the situation that most counterpicks will present to more than a handful of characters: the need to switch things around from whatever their base game is.

As against Brinstar as I am, it's not due to the fact that the piece disintegrates, and this is solid reasoning, so you've won me over.

KBizzle said:
In fact, I've come to believe that not even MK can safely maintain his base playstyle on some of these stages that were hastily banned as opposed to him being able to on most variations of legal stagelists I see today. However, I do not consider MK as a superior deciding factor in discussing most groundbased counterpick stages, I just wanted to point out that there's a possibility that even he may not be universally flexible with a more diverse (albeit reasonable/not insane) stage arrangement or a couple of extra stage additions.

10agreements. I'd be happy if there were more stages that served as good cps against MK. Not saying they NEED to be there, but if they were I would be extremely happy.

Eddie G · Jun 24, 2010

6Mizu said:
isn't the ceiling pretty low here?

Fairly low, yes. Isn't the ceiling pretty low on Halberd/Brinstar/top of RC (just to name a few) as well?

-Vocal- · Jun 24, 2010

6Mizu said:
Pierce do you think any of the bug names would be up for having this legal?
I haven't played on this stage since my "items on free for all days" sk I have a question isn't the ceiling pretty low here?

Eternal Yoshi said:
Mario Circuit's ceiling is quite high, higher than BOE's ceiling even.
I fully support giving this stage the play/test time it desreves.

I haven't seen this firsthand, but I don't see why he would make this up.

EDIT: But KBizzle says otherwise? I am torn :/

bigman40 · Jun 24, 2010

-Vocal- said:
10agreements. I'd be happy if there were more stages that served as good cps against MK. Not saying they NEED to be there, but if they were I would be extremely happy.

That's one of the reasons why people still argue for some of the "crazier and stupid" (labeled as some others) stages. They have the full merit of counterpicks, but are thrown away for no reason.

As for YI: Melee, the Ceiling is not as low as it was in Melee (it got moved up a tad), but it's about a little higher than Brinstar.

Edit: Vocal, he means YI: Melee. Not Mario Circuit lol.

-Vocal- · Jun 24, 2010

bigman40 said:
That's one of the reasons why people still argue for some of the "crazier and stupid" (labeled as some others) stages. They have the full merit of counterpicks, but are thrown away for no reason.

As for YI: Melee, the Ceiling is not as low as it was in Melee (it got moved up a tad), but it's about a little higher than Brinstar.

Edit: Vocal, he means YI: Melee. Not Mario Circuit lol.

Oh, my B

And as far as allowing more counterpicks, I think Mario Circuit is a good place to start. I think that we've seen so far that we cannot off of the cuff say the walkoffs will be a terrible thing, and we've established that the cars can be entirely expected, planned for, and even integrated into play strategies. The only thing that remains to be seen is how gameplay actually unfolds between two competent players to see if it provides too much of a real life advantage (Olimar and Falco seem to be the two I've seen mentioned a lot).

Luigi player · Jun 24, 2010

iRJi said:
Well... Why is it?

Can't Sonic (maybe Wario too) run away the whole time?

CGs to death (Dedede, Falco, Pikachu, GRs on Ness/Lucas)

Locks to death (Diddy banana locks, if you don't tech on the floor and your enemy punishes right and is at the right place he can jab/laser/whatever lock you)

Blastzone-camping (everyone); of course it's beatable, but it seems to be like sudden death; one right/wrong guess and you win/lose - stupid...

And I don't get why people say MK isn't that great on such a stage... it's so obvious a shuttle loop is now a 0-death too, since with one hit if you're not exactly in the middle of the stage and/or DIing correctly you're dead.

iRJi · Jun 24, 2010

Luigi player said:
Can't Sonic (maybe Wario too) run away the whole time?

CGs to death (Dedede, Falco, Pikachu, GRs on Ness/Lucas)

Locks to death (Diddy banana locks, if you don't tech on the floor and your enemy punishes right and is at the right place he can jab/laser/whatever lock you)

Blastzone-camping (everyone); of course it's beatable, but it seems to be like sudden death; one right/wrong guess and you win/lose - stupid...

And I don't get why people say MK isn't that great on such a stage... it's so obvious a shuttle loop is now a 0-death too, since with one hit if you're not exactly in the middle of the stage and/or DIing correctly you're dead.

Do me a favor and read the whole thread please.

-Vocal- · Jun 24, 2010

iRJi said:
Do me a favor and read the whole thread please.

Concurrences.

10,000concurrences.

This message should pop up whenever anyone enters a thread.

Eternal Yoshi · Jun 24, 2010

Let's see what Brawlbox says about the ceiling.
Mario Circuit
Floor = 0
Platforms = 30
Death Ceiling = 200

Compared to other stages

Bridge of Eldin
Floor = -0.474
Deatht Ceiling = 180

Final Destination
Floor = 0.64
Death Ceiling = 180

Frigate Orpheon
Floor = -113.4034
Platform = -85.73872
Death Ceiling = 60

Halberd
Floor = 0
Death Ceiling = 190

Yeah, I'd say it's high.

bigman40 · Jun 24, 2010

Can you look up YI: Melee too?

iFudge · Jun 24, 2010

anything to make brawl fun <3

6Mizu · Jun 24, 2010

Eternal Yoshi said:
Let's see what Brawlbox says about the ceiling.
Mario Circuit
Floor = 0
Platforms = 30
Death Ceiling = 200

Compared to other stages

Bridge of Eldin
Floor = -0.474
Deatht Ceiling = 180

Final Destination
Floor = 0.64
Death Ceiling = 180

Frigate Orpheon
Floor = -113.4034
Platform = -85.73872
Death Ceiling = 60

Halberd
Floor = 0
Death Ceiling = 190

Yeah, I'd say it's high.

hmmm...that's interesting. EY could you direct me to the thread where you found that?

RichBrown · Jun 24, 2010

This guy is an amazing troll.

And permanent double walk off=big no-no.

Overswarm · Jun 24, 2010

And permanent double walk off=big no-no.

Why ?

Throwback · Jun 24, 2010

what's the order of picks? Loser picks stage, winner picks char, loser picks char? If loser picks mario circuit winner can pick a non-CG character.

iFudge · Jun 24, 2010

mk still ***** on this stage
but it does prompt faster matches

Eternal Yoshi · Jun 24, 2010

All I did was open Brawl box and took the stages from my dump.
Here's YI

ipes.

Yoshi's Island(Melee)
Floor = 0
Blocks = 38.25
Death Ceiling = 150

6Mizu · Jun 25, 2010

iFudge said:
mk still ***** on this stage
but it does prompt faster matches

Lol, this goes for pretty much every stage.

Eddie G · Jun 25, 2010

RichBrown said:
This guy is an amazing troll.

And permanent double walk off=big no-no.

Is this how the BBR comes to their conclusions? "Big no-no"?

Orion* · Jun 25, 2010

Man of Popsicle said:
Not to butt in or be off topic but Dayum whatta ugly weeaboo.

its actually funny because im really not. i just got offered the chance to dress up for free when i was in japan so why not

also

in terms of fun for amount of $ spent

china > japan

except the air is awful in china. so if you have the bread to spare then not worth the coughing

Grim Tuesday · Jun 25, 2010

Why is this still being discussed? Just test the **** stage, it's the only concrete evidence we can get.

I am going to a tourney at a convention next month where it is unbanned so I'll try and see what it's like there.

-LzR- · Jun 25, 2010

I am going to test this stage today. And to everyone mentioning about D3, EB kids GR and all the other crap.
Well, I am about to tell you a big secret! Listen carefully. When you win a match... Your opponent can pick a stage. If your opponent picks D3, here comes the fun part, you can BAN one stage :O
So if you foe is good and that stage, ban it. And if your opponent is D3, pick a char who cannot be chaingrabbed by him. Simple.

And yes, test the stage before your stupid arguments, you saying Falco and Oli **** here are completely theoretical. Let's see some proof.

Col. Stauffenberg · Jun 25, 2010

Why isn't anyone testing New Pork City too? You guys are being awfully biased.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Jun 25, 2010

Col. Stauffenberg said:
Why isn't anyone testing New Pork City too? You guys are being awfully biased.

Read the ****ing thread, jeez. The difference is that, while we are able to theoretically question the issues that Mario Circuit seems to have, the issues that NPC has are so ridiculous that no amount of theorycrafting will help.

Grim Tuesday · Jun 25, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
Read the ****ing thread, jeez. The difference is that, while we are able to theoretically question the issues that Mario Circuit seems to have, the issues that NPC has are so ridiculous that no amount of theorycrafting will help.

obviousjokewasobvious.

Col. Stauffenberg · Jun 25, 2010

I honestly don't think any amount of theorycrafting can make Mario Circuit a reasonable stage for tournaments either, and the number of people here who not only disagree but seem to think there's absolutely nothing wrong with the stage is kind of disturbing. I feel like I'm in Bizarro land.

Grim Tuesday · Jun 25, 2010

Col. Stauffenberg said:
I honestly don't think any amount of theorycrafting can make Mario Circuit a reasonable stage for tournaments either, and the number of people here who not only disagree but seem to think there's absolutely nothing wrong with the stage is kind of disturbing. I feel like I'm in Bizarro land.

I find it bizarre that you think it's more likely a majority is wrong than just you being wrong.
List the stage's flaws and I will attempt to pick them apart until you are left with a fair stage.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Jun 25, 2010

Col. Stauffenberg said:
I honestly don't think any amount of theorycrafting can make Mario Circuit a reasonable stage for tournaments either, and the number of people here who not only disagree but seem to think there's absolutely nothing wrong with the stage is kind of disturbing. I feel like I'm in Bizarro land.

I used to think like that. Then I read this thread and want to see how testing goes.

Using Mario Circuit As A Playable Stage

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