I now understand why pro-ban is so enthusiastic. They don't understand HOW to fight MK. Is he broken? Yes. Is he perfect? No.
@ Nappy, I really hope he was being serious, cuz if it was just sarcasm, then my big long rant was kinda made for nothing...
>______>;
REGARDLESS! Let's begin!
But there are a buncha things wrong with that!
The first thing you're saying is that MK is no good on the ground.
Before I try to teach you how to defeat MK, I suggest you first learn how to read. It's considerably easier. I don't even comprehend how it's possible for you to be able to put words directly into my mouth, and bold them, when you have
MY QUOTED POST right above you as you're typing. It makes no sense.
Metaknight is AMAZING on the ground. However, at close range, he is very susceptible to other characters, who have frame 2 or three jabs, with actions that are actually safer on shield, and harder to shield grab. Let's take a look at the actions you used as an example.
But what about his Dtilt which is safe on shield, causes trips, and leads to grabs, and Ftilt with range only beaten by Ike and Ivysaur? What about his notoriously dangerous Dsmash? And even if the opponent takes the offensive, we're dealing with MK's options to Shuttle Loop, Nair, or Dair OOS in that situation! And MK still has his ridiculous grab game that tacks on 11 damage(dthrow) AND puts the opponent in an extremely bad position(namely, above him)!
Available grounded options: Dtilt, Ftilt, Dsmash, Shuttle Loop, Grab(all variations), OOS Nair, OOS Dair
Count: 7
Dtilt is safe on shield WHEN SPACED, NOT AT CLOSE RANGE. Ftilt is NOT safe on shield. Ftilt is only good because of it's implied safety. Ftilt hit 1 has 13 frames of cooldown (might be 14, I'm going off memory) but can be canceled with hit two right away. Both hits 2 and 3 have THIRTY FRAMES of cooldown. 2 shares a similar implied safety as 1, because it can be cancelled into frame three, and all hits take 3 frames to come out. However, any MK worth anything will tell you that Ftilt is a HORRIBLE gambit at close range on a shield, VASTLY in favor of the opponent you are psuedo pressuring. Once hit one connects on a shield while you are in grab range, you are basically praying that you hit the opponent with hit two before they grab. However, this means delaying hit one significantly (otherwise they'll just block through to hit two, and things get worse, because now you're eating up to thirty frames of lag). Being forced to delay your attack means GUESSING when to throw hit two to hit a 6 frame window with a 3 frame move in a VERY, VERY small 13 frame window with your OPPONENT having the luxury of confirmation. YEAH OKAY!
Dsmash on block cannot be shield grabbed, unless you utilized a sliding shield. However, it has 25 frames of lag (when I say lag, I'm referring to cool down after the initial hit, usually accounting for shield hitlag to hitlag differential.) when he connects the front part. Just because everyone and their mom decides to try and shield grab it like it's '08, doesn't make it safe on block. If you don't freeze up under pressure, and build up good reaction, you can punish this move on block everytime with nearly every character. With good reaction even Ganon can punish this crap.
The OOS options are good indeed, in particular Shuttle Loop. As far as Dragon Punches go, that's an amazing one. However, they are not the end of the world, and SL is definitely the LEAST safe on block out of all moves listed.
At close range (which is what I said, not "on the ground" LOL), MK lacks a standard boxing game which includes a usable jab. Jabs typically have low lag, so you can choose whether to mix up into more of the jab, defense, or grab. Ftilt does not qualify as a jab, because it has hefty ending lag, removing a LOT of mix-up potential when at the threat of being grabbed by the opponent.
The next issue is the claim that MK has a problem above the opponent. True, in Brawl, it's almost never a good idea to be above the opponent, but this doesn't hold true in Meta's case. The way most characters get juggled by opponents is when the opponent has a large disjoint above them to catch a character who can't move out of the way quickly enough. But in Meta's case, this doesn't apply! If Meta's in the air, you've given him essentially a free ticket to Dair shenanigans! In addition to that, he has SIX(Five? Can't remember) jumps in his arsenal! If he feels threatened at all, "aerial is down, press it while I'm jumpin' up," whenever an opponent tries to aerial chase, and bam! MK has fended off the opponent.
After you learn to read, you should learn some patience. There are few characters actually vulnerable to Dair camping, but no one knows how to combat it. First off, MK has one grounded (or ledge) jump, coupled with 5 midair jumps, any of which may be led into a glide.
Successfully juggling or punishing MKs landing doesn't always include (as iconic Isai would put it) jumping into the ****.
First off all, if MK is in the air, and using techniques to suspend himself there, then you should anticipate his landing. 5 jumps is quite a ridiculous amount, I agree (I've always argued that in a game where you are fighting and attempting to knock each other off of a platform, flying is obviously broken). However, try the following:
CROUCH! If MK is using Dair or Mach Tornado above you, he'll have to dip ESPECIALLY low to hit you while crouching (this is especially important for all you SNAKE players out there.) Crawling is extremely anti air, because it allows you to intimately control your spacing both forwards and backwards, just like your airborne opponent (that's why being airborne is good in Brawl, btw) while remaining further out of reach to your opponent. Even if you can not crawl, causing MK to since low on his Dair and not having to shield (and vastly increasing your chances to Power Shield) makes punishing this tactic FAR more effective. Using an attack with boosted mobility to punish landing is very effective, although patience is also good in case of Mach Tornado, in which case a fast attack can punish the ending. At WORSE, you should consider yourself at neutral when MK starts to Dair camp, EVEN FALCO.
And don't forget to take into account MK's relatively fast falling speed, coupled with the BEST airdodge in the game! If an opponent tries to chase MK into the air, MK can just get back to the ground with an airdodge, then use Nado to catch the opponent's landing, who had apparently put MK into a 'bad' position!
As already pointed out to you, MK's airdodge is only the best because it has one extra frame of invincibility at the beginning. Hardly relevant to any situation. Falling speed is far more relevant, and I applaud the solid point. However, you are a bad player if you let MK catch you with airdodge into Frame 12 Mach Tornado consistently, and I have no problems telling you. He's far better off using a faster anti-air.
And MK can attempt to land with a Nado, and yes, the opponent might see it coming and shield, but MK can flee, after hitting the opponent's shield, to the other side of the stage at the proper height to lag cancel before any character(except maybe fast movers, like Snake, Marth, Sonic, and Falcon) has a chance to dish out any punishment!
GOOD (and I emphasis, GOOD) Characters with projectiles or lots of range are benefitted from this situation, and almost every character that's good can punish this. Snake can Dacus, Dash Attack, ftilt, or possibly grenade. Diddy can banana, Dash Attack, Dash Grab. Marth can Dancing Blade. Falco can Dash Attack or Phantasm, the list goes on. Tornado is a great mix-up tool, but it is by no means unpunishable.
Most characters can't even get to the ground except through an airdodge, but MK over here has offensive ways to hold his own above the opponent!
This is true. I accuse you of being silly if you though I meant to imply that MK should never hit the ground once you knock him into the air. However, I would hope you have enough sense to come to the consensus that this is a far more favorable position than him being well spaced and on the ground.
Available options while above opponent: Airdodge into ground, Tornado, Dair camp, Dimensional Cape?
Count: 3(4?)
I already addressed most of this, but someone actually contradicted you and said Dimension Cape is not good for landing. This is false. It's a long range escape tool, that is VERY hard to chase. I use it frequently, but it's harder to use, and I can understand why you would at first assume it's bad. It's also susceptible to getting UpBed out of the start up in the ditto.
The next point you've got is that MK doesn't do well on the ledge, and I personally think this point is really messed up. MK does not have issues on the ledge, EVER. He has a million different ledgehop options, and I have yet to see MK's ledgehopped shenanigans get punished to the point of death.
Um, this is one of the BEST times to kill MK. Additionally, you seem to be under some bogus assumption that I meant you should hit MK every time he's on the ledge, until he dies. No, but the chances of you landing a hit are MUCH greater than him landing a hit IF you're playing a good character, and playing properly. I'm not going to go in depth here on ledge spacing and traps, but I'll be sure to include an article about senerio spacing and trapping later (and I've probably written one in the past, though it might be Marth specific.) You can check my thread for that in the future.
MK also gains the ability to pseudo-plank on the ledge here. True, ledge grab limits have been put into place in tournaments, but nothing's stopping MK from just... hanging on the ledge for the maximum amount of ledgegrab time(when you automatically fall off) and regrabbing the ledge. True, MK doesn't get the invincibility while hanging on the ledge for that long, but for nearly the entire cast, going after MK hanging on a ledge is practically a suicide bombing mission where you miss completely. Going off the stage to combat MK gives him free reign to gimp or stagespike you(or just get back on the stage), and approaching him near the ledge is just asking for a drop down Uair or some ledgehopped move.
I agree that MK is undefeatable on the ledge if he's allowed to stay there. Almost every character has a projectile or attack that will punish an MK dumb enough to stay on the edge till his invincibility runs out over and over. I'm honestly shaking my head at this one. Provided that there is some mechanic that forces MK to give him his dominant position, then you can anticipate that eventually there will be a moment to strike. Become fast enough to capitalize.
Now, onto those ledgehopped moves. Ledgehopped Tornado is MK's quickest way to get back on stage, and it's **** powerful. He can also mix it up with Shuttle Loop or Fair, so the opponent can't possibly know what to expect every time.
Hmm, relatively good options. Try spacing so that these options cannot hit you (if you space for Fair and SL, then you will be able to block Nado on reaction.) Then set up proper edge pressure. That varies on your character, but for example, that could be Nade traps, Banana set-ups, Sword Coverage, laser lockdowns, or any manner of walls and mix-ups that are especially difficult to break without the use of a shield. Considering MK cannot shield from the ledge (or even use his broken tilts), you have a very good advantage here. I would cry if I always got hit by MK while HE was the one recovering.
READ THIS! - Not only that, MK has a currently unpunishable way to get back on stage. The "under the stage Reverse Shuttle Loop." I'm sure you've all seen it at least once, but just in case, I'll explain it. It's where MK goes under the stage a little, then does a Shuttle Loop in the direction of the ledge he just dropped off. He jumps AROUND the ledge during the loop, and lands on stage with NO lag. There are NO lag frames on this technique, so MK can follow up with pretty much anything, most notably Nair or Dtilt. The hitbox for the Shuttle Loop during this technique is ALWAYS out, so it hits the opponent if they're too close, and that serves for some very handy shieldpush and shieldstun, or just a flat out attack if the opponent wasn't shielding. In either of the two cases, MK is back on the stage, and there's nothing you could've done about it.
I actually laughed out loud at this one, because I taught my friend who is improving rapidly, but still not yet amazing and uses MARIO how to deal with this yesterday. First off, this is very telegraphed, because to optimize on the technique, you must space correctly. It is VERY shield-grab-able, but you SHOULD just HIT MK out of this blasphemous move, because the back side of shuttle loop has just a little more priority than Diddy's Peanut! Thank you, free kill moves!
Available options while on the ledge: Ledgehopped airdodge, ledgehopped Tornado, ledgehopped Fair, ledgehopped Shuttle Loop, under the stage lagless Shuttle Loop(the most dangerous), drop down Uair, glide under stage?
Count: 6(7?)
LOL, I regard your most dangerous option as the least dangerous. Also, against most viable characters, gliding under the stage only serves to reset the situation if you properly ledge trap. It is good to go past characters trying to edgeguard you though. Learn to space and punishing without jumping into the ****.
The last point in fact is MK's inability to get around projectiles. It's true projectile spam is the best possible option in the MU against Meta-Knight, but even that's not a surefire way to get the job done. I've seen plenty of matches of MK vs. some projectile user, and I've observed plenty of instances where MK had no issues getting around the projectiles and to the opponent. I've seen matches of MK vs characters such as Diddy and Falco lost to MK simply because MK got inside, and prevented the opponent from escaping.
Projectile spam is not always the best possible option vs MK. However, projectiles are extremely helpful against MK. I don't recall ever saying anything so blasphemous such as, "MK is unable to get around projectiles." However, if you have good projectile, and MK is far from you, then you have an advantage.
You cannot forget MK has some of the best defensive options in Brawl(the best forward roll, one of the best back rolls, one of the best sidesteps, the best airdodge), along with a beast dash speed and a walking speed that's not too shabby, either. And even if MK does have an issue with projectiles, MK can just aircamp the opponent with Dairs. It beats projectiles big time, AFAIK. I don't really have too many specifics on MK beating projectiles, but there should be plenty, and I mean PLENTY of videos on Youtube supporting what I just said. (See:
ADHD vs. Anti Grand Finals at Prototype)
MK does have the best forward roll and best airdodge. Many people would argue that forward roll is an offensive ability, but that's neither here or there. MK's back roll and sidestep are average.
I didn't watch the link, but I can tell you right now that ADHD does NOT have a problem with Dair camping. I watch a large amount of their sets in person, as both of them are personal friends of mine, and I'm sure I could gladly pull either of them into the thread to cosign with me that ADHD doesn't suffer from Dair camping. I could probably pull up 50 examples of ADHD punish Dair camp (usually with banana throw up to Fair) but I'm not going to now. Dair camping often navigates around the core threat of a projectile, but leads into another problem: being airborne.
Dair camping IS an effective strategy, because just like everything else, people do not understand how to properly combat it. When people learn what to do, it will still be good, but not nearly as good.
This is a bit matchup specific, but you also can't forget Meta's amazing glide toss that drags him almost the entire length of FD. That means if his opponent's Peach, ROB, or Diddy, BAM!
Okay, sweet. This doesn't really go against anything I said, but okay.
In all of the situations Pierce described MK to be in a bad position, MK has tons of offensive and defensive options at his disposal to get around it and shift things back to his favor. He has a multitude of mixups that could potentially put the opponent in an even worse spot than MK was allegedly in. Meta may have some weaknesses, but he has MORE than enough tools at his disposal to make them nonexistant.
Not at all. Most of the good and viable characters can limit his options tremendously in these situations if you know how. He does have a lot of mix-ups and escapes, but rarely does he have solid offensive base from these positions.
...whew, that took me longer than I expected. I'm gonna proofread this quick, but all my ideas are down there.
I dont think you realized what you typed
I realize exactly what I typed, and I know what I'm talking about. I main MK after all. I live in New Jersey, and have played extensively with M2k, Atomsk, Orion, Nairo, Ksizzle, etc. I have also played pretty much every top MK in the country.
I don't just say stuff without knowing what I'm talking about.
Meta Knight (213 top8, 143 top4, 94 top2, 100 wins, 550 total) - 
