Matchup Export: Ike

A1lion835 · Aug 30, 2010

[collapse=Ike Summary][/collapse]

jabjabjab

Discuss!

jamlosingthegame · Aug 30, 2010

I believe most of Ike's moves outprioritize most of Kirby's and his range is dangerous. Kirby, however, has a couple of combos to rack up damage and fsmash as a pretty reliable KO move. Ike seems to have problems offstage, while Kirby doesn't seem to have much of a problem. I say around 55:45 Kirby.

Meh, I don't have much MU experience, but hope that helps.

BBQTV · Aug 30, 2010

SEEMS TO HAVE A PROBLEM!?

if your ike you dont have time to be dily dalying off stage, your main job should be getting on stage

C~Dog · Aug 30, 2010

If you're Ike you don't have time to be not jabbing!

Sage JoWii · Aug 31, 2010

Just because I won't be here frequently enough to handle this thread doesn't mean I can't leave good post. Take this post with a grain of salt. I've played San, theboredone (TX), Renegade (midwest) and have had moderate success as my credentials.

There are 4 'areas' of combat; onstage (close range and spaced), offstage (the edge, the air).

Onstage: Spaced
This is how you start off during the match. From this point you can expect Ike to space FAirs 2 ways under two conditions. Approaching, to pressure and force a reaction. If you don't know the MU you'll waste time eating FAirs because you'll try to figure out what outspaces FAir but you need to realize: NOTHING beats it. You need to bait the FAir by SH towards them, airdodge and fall back (during which time he'll be FAiring). There's enough time when you land and he's FAiring to quickDA (Ctrl stcik dwn+ Cstick forward (or is it the opposite?)). Once you're in, the damage racking portion of the match begins. Lawl, and avoid Jabs by spacing your BAirs as a sidenote.

Onstage: Close Range
Once you're in, you're IN! Once you're in, don't pull out. Basically if you can get in, go for an UTilt string to get him up. If Ike starts getting enough room to pull off an attack or DI out of the Utilt string you need to be prepared to READ IKE! Either he'll do for a DAir, neutral B, or DI away. The two attacks can be shielded then grabbed, the DI can be followed and shielded then grabbed. Once you grab, go for DThrow and shield once it's over because Ike will be overhead and likely to DI away and FAir. That should be a good amount of damage and Ike should be close to an edge. Find a way to get Ike offstage!!!
Offstage: Air
Offstage, Kirby obviously ***** Ike. Don't get spiked by being overly aggro and stupid about it. All you need to do is aim to get Ike level or a little above the stage and far enough his upB won't grip the stage. That's about.....two FAirs length away w/o his double jump? Look, figure it out lol. If he manages to get back you'll have to deal with his ledge game (lol, it's not really much but I feel it deserves it's own section).
Offstage: Ledge
If you get Ike offstage and he's close enough to UpB, don't bother going out there w/ him. You can either get caught in his UpB and then you'll be under him by the ledge; NOT WHERE YOU WANNA BE! If he's got the ledge and you're under him you are going to eat a spike. Or get caught in his UpB and rack damage.
If you're on stage and he has the ledge he'll UpB to his hearts content and you might as well let him return.

Stages?
Strike........? Idk, YI, BF, and CS. Aim for FD or Lylat.

CP: JJ, RC and Frigate.

fromundaman · Aug 31, 2010

You forgot to mention that you can beat spaced Fair by Powershielding them. If you don't powershield, DONT try to punish it; you'll get jabbed. If you time it right you can also roll through it and buffer a Utilt.
Also, watch out for that Bair KO. That's the easiest way for Ike to score a kill, along with Ftilt (although I tend to get read then hit by Dsmash as I try to roll through what I thought would be a Fair.).

Pretty sure you can Ftilt him out of Aether, and he'll fall just far enough to aether again, and get Ftilted again, etc. By the way, Ftilt is pretty awesome in this MU too, although TBH it's pretty much just an amazing move overall and Kirbies should use it more.

If you see Ike with his back to the ledge, run in and powershield. He won't jab for fear of getting pushed off and buffering a Nair.

I play Links24 (Midwest, and supposedly better than Renegade and now the best Ike in the MW. IDK, it's what I'm told.) often, although not always his Ike and I'll admit I tend to play against it with Ganon and Mario moreso than Kirby.

EDIT:

Ban Halberd? In case you couldn't tell, low ceilings scare me.

Also:

JoWiiCIDE said:
Once you're in, don't pull out.

Bwahaha!
10Ikepregnancies.

Heartstring · Sep 1, 2010

as for stages, avoid battlefield at all costs, its not good for kirby and its what ike showed to the camera when he went on mtv cribz.
brinstar is also a fairly poor idea for kirby, gimping becomes less effective thanks to lava and most ikes are fans of this stage too.
as stated previously, halberd wont be the greatest idea either, although you can shark him and he cant really come underneath to retaliate, but watch out for a sneaky d-tilt.
a kirby would probably choose delphino plaza as a counterpick against ike, personally i hate delphino plaza. but has is effective in water spiking, so be careful here.

i also posted this on the ike boards a few days ago, sorta works here i suppose;

Golden-psyco said:
woo reaction time tests! i've done the sheep one a fair few times in my life but because theyre normally on the other side of the screen by the time i click it actually came down to mass prediction of when they would run out...thinking about it, its probably where i learnt a fair bit of my prediction skill (which is mediocre, dont get me wrong)
nah got bored of them fast, but browny wat the hell have you been taking to have reaction times that fast?

kirby tips? oh wow that horrible period of time where i mained kirby is going to be of use afterall!
i've jsut been testing out ways of not getting stringed by u-tilt, first off if he hits you with the front end of it, you can jsut hold away and no more of the u-tilts will hit, and if he hits with the back end, sadly the second hit will always hit providing he mashes utilt fast, however after that you can jump away regardless of how stale it is. also-depending on whereabouts you are in comparison with kirby's foot-if you hold towards kirby's front you might get hit by the sourspot and so take even less damage, and youll still be able to escape after two hits
also as for avoiding the gonzo combo (f-throw>u-air>f-throw>u-air>f-smash) and shorter versions of it, sadly theres isnt much thats you can do other than DI, there are two ways of getting out of this, but they will still involve taknig damage, but not as much:
1)hold up when he f-throws you: the u-air will hit regardless of what you do but if you hold up in the f-throw the u-air will knock you too high to be hit by the f-smash/grabbed
2)SDI the u-air: much riskier method incase you mess up the sdi, but leaved you in pretty much the same position
providing you still have your jump (which you should do) you can jump and punish the f-smash/grab (that is if he decides he wants to continue the combo on thin air) with a f-air doing about 20% of the damage necessary to kill the marshmallow XD

and general kirby tips...stay away from the disjointed grabbox and you should be fine (seriously, look at his arms, he shouldn't have a larger grab range than dk, but sakurai made it so) dont be afraid to make him approach, because kirby hasnt got much for approaching anyway, let alone when even our jab outranges/out-prioritses almost everything he has. he hasnt even got a semi-safe projectile that he can spam at us, make sure you go to a stage with a platform or two and you will be fine, and as always, space your aerials XD
oh yeah, kirby destroys us once we go offstage (as do most characters) jsut get back to the stage asap and youll be fine XD

wow my head is full of so much pointless stuff...anyway did that help?

Sage JoWii · Sep 1, 2010

>_> Why would we take Ike to Delfino when we can take him to JJ or Frigate?

fromundaman · Sep 1, 2010

Heh, those Gonzo tips made me lol, if only because, at least against me this is what would happen:

Fthrow>Uair>you DI/SDI and go to jump (Haha no grab!)>Up angled Ftilt (Oh ****, knocks you out of your jump!)>regrab>Dthrow>Utilt>Bair.

Moral of the story: Remember that we can and will mix it up.

Also, for Utilt, in the front we can follow up with Ftilt, Dtilt and grab (risky since I think you can land and jab us 1st even without SDI), whereas in the back, Utilt X2>Bair works well.

I don't Shark Ike, ever. Dtilt scares the crap out of me. Also, if you get jabbed at the edge, DI towards Ike, because jab cancel>Dtilt is legit (though maybe not on Kirby?) and scary as ****.

BF isn't bad for Kirby at all. That being said, when it comes to neutrals, Kirby should aim for Lylat or YI. I would say if you can't get those, go BF, FD or SV, depending on preference.

The way the MU works is Ike can make it hard for Kirby to get in, but with good powershielding, mindgames and shield DI (If anyone can do that well enough to warrant mentioning), Kirby can get in and rack up some damage fast. Also don't be afraid to roll through his jabs. We have a good roll and can end up behind him while he's busy jab canceling in the wrong direction. Just don't get predictable with it or you'll roll into a Dsmash.
As for actually killing Ike, you're more likely to either gimp him or kill him with a Bair. There really aren't a whole lot of opportunities to use any other KO moves most of the time.

Heartstring · Sep 1, 2010

JoWiiCIDE said:
>_> Why would we take Ike to Delfino when we can take him to JJ or Frigate?

not legal in my country so i didnt think of those, but yesi do remember one (wifi lol) incident with a kirby on japes...oh the nightmares, i still ban it against all if its ever legal jsut for that reason.

also being an ex-n00b kirby, i thought the gonzo combo was jsut one set combo, i lernt sumtin new <(^-^)>

anyway yeah, the matchup generally works as us keeping you out, you getting in and staying there, invasion game if you will, but its slightly easier for you to get in then it is for us to keep you out. 55:45 or 60:40 your favour

Sage JoWii · Sep 1, 2010

A mixup to the gonzo combo is the one I do when I've 'trained' my opponent to DI away. FThrow>risingFAirX2>reverseRisingBAir (the last one is tricky and only works if they are DIing towards you.

Lord Viper · Sep 1, 2010

★ Delfino Plaza is Ike's third best stage vs Kirby. If Green Greens and Pirate Ship are ban, Delfino Plaza is the next best stage against Kirby. ♛

fromundaman · Sep 2, 2010

Pirate Ship hasn't been legal anywhere in the world for like over a year now...

Heartstring · Sep 2, 2010

although if places start using it, port town is going to be kirby's anti-ike stage
also small tip, dont ph33r the d-tilt, its a poor move, just strong for spiking

fromundaman · Sep 2, 2010

lol yeah, PTAD ***** Ike hard! Also, Dtilt is just scary at the edge as a spike move, I agree...

Heartstring · Sep 2, 2010

no honestly, if youre sharking i'd always go for a d-air over a d-tilt, as the dtilt's spike hitbox is only on the sword, you can just avoid that easily.
also, i may be the only one stupid enough to have leart to use it, but eruption also has a spike hitbox at the tip (whire a sharking kirby will just so happen to be), also if you try to hit him out of it, eruption has SAF so you might get punished. plus if edgeguarding a kirby eruption is decent there ecause the hits horizontally longer than kirby's ledge sweetspot

fromundaman · Sep 2, 2010

Hmmm, I agree with Dair over Dtilt for a sharking Kirby. Jab>Dtilt works better than jab>Dair though. In any case, sharking Ike is a bad idea.

Sage JoWii · Sep 2, 2010

I talked w/ San about using PTAD as a CP and he said Ike isn't THAT bad on this stage. He actually doesn't mind it too much.

Heartstring · Sep 2, 2010

thats san, he could fight on 75m and do well on it.
no ledges means that aether has to land onstage, easy punishment for someone like kirby, well infact for anyone its easy to punish providing they dont get hit by the landing hitbox.
at least your up-b makes a shockwave when it hits the floor

also i dont know why youre so afraid of jab>dtilt. mash jump and it wont ever hit, being kirby your almost guaranteed to have a jump left

Nidtendofreak · Sep 2, 2010

PTAD is a good Ike stage. JJs isn't a bad stage for Ike either.

And I swear, we did this discussion like 3 months ago or something like that. And like a month before that one.

Heartstring · Sep 2, 2010

about jungle japes? yeah but you havent seen waht kirby can do, he can just inhale and drop into the water, seeing as we lack projectiles if a person is smart is can be done to us quite easily, and with his recovery he can daintily float back to the stage while we die

we may not have the worst recovery in the game but **** is it the most linear

fromundaman · Sep 2, 2010

Golden-psyco said:
also i dont know why youre so afraid of jab>dtilt. mash jump and it wont ever hit, being kirby your almost guaranteed to have a jump left

Oh haha, didn't know that. That being said, I usually use Ganon or Mario for Ike (FLUDD is lolrape in that MU).

Heartstring · Sep 2, 2010

you have to be really bad with aether to get hit by fludd, anyone whos any good wont get owned by that

fromundaman · Sep 2, 2010

Ummm... or I could jump offstage and aim FLUDD at Ike then recover XD

I mean, uncharged FLUDD still gimps you, but that's a different MU.

Heartstring · Sep 2, 2010

who's thick enough to use mario anyway XD
but yes, different matchup

Sage JoWii · Sep 2, 2010

Lol @ silly English slang. W/ PTAD Ike can use the stage to stop gimps, and assist (yes I said ASSIST) with recovering whilst retaining the 2nd jump. He takes damage sure but it's ****ing Ike against Kirby, like that really matters.

Heartstring · Sep 3, 2010

well yes, regardless its hardly like anywhere is gonna use ptad.
if we go by neutrals solely (thats where themajority of fights will be)
battlefield-ike's favour
final destination-kirby's favour
smashville-kirby's favour
yoshi's-even
lylat-kirby's favour
pokemon stadium-ike's favour
halberd-ike's favour
delphino-kirby's favour
castle seige-even

this is honestly a difficult matchup to do on paper, i guess it depends more on the characters playstyle's, if the ike is more grabbyjabby, its probably going to suit kirby, but if ike is more fairie nairie, then probably even-ish

AN(M)ist · Sep 3, 2010

fromundaman said:
The way the MU works is Ike can make it hard for Kirby to get in, but with good powershielding, mindgames and shield DI (If anyone can do that well enough to warrant mentioning), Kirby can get in and rack up some damage fast. Also don't be afraid to roll through his jabs. We have a good roll and can end up behind him while he's busy jab canceling in the wrong direction. Just don't get predictable with it or you'll roll into a Dsmash.
As for actually killing Ike, you're more likely to either gimp him or kill him with a Bair. There really aren't a whole lot of opportunities to use any other KO moves most of the time.

Just so you know, rolling through jab is a bad idea, ike can turn around just as fast and start jabbing you again or even land a ftilt on you if he sees the roll, the IASA of rolling permits him to do so.

And good Ike's do not use dsmash, they are better off using utilt (unless ofcourse something new pops up from dsmash in the future, but thats unlikely).

Golden-psyco said:
no honestly, if youre sharking i'd always go for a d-air over a d-tilt, as the dtilt's spike hitbox is only on the sword, you can just avoid that easily.
also, i may be the only one stupid enough to have leart to use it, but eruption also has a spike hitbox at the tip (whire a sharking kirby will just so happen to be), also if you try to hit him out of it, eruption has SAF so you might get punished. plus if edgeguarding a kirby eruption is decent there ecause the hits horizontally longer than kirby's ledge sweetspot

I want to clear any and all misinformation here, eruption spikes GROUNDED opponents (lol), other than that it never spikes. if it is uncharged it shoots everything upwards; if charged, it shoots horizontal (angle depends on the amount of charge).

Golden-psyco said:
also i dont know why youre so afraid of jab>dtilt. mash jump and it wont ever hit, being kirby your almost guaranteed to have a jump left

Ike isn't hardpressed to use dtilt after jabbing, he can mix it up with utilt if kirby plans on using jumps or walkoff dair if kirby plans to airdodge (thts another spiking move you ppl should be careful of when airdodging and coming below ike); all this could be really bad for kirby.

Nidtendofreak · Sep 3, 2010

Golden-psyco said:
well yes, regardless its hardly like anywhere is gonna use ptad.
if we go by neutrals solely (thats where themajority of fights will be)
battlefield-ike's favour
final destination-kirby's favour Why? We have more range, and more air speed + lots of room. I fail to see this as Kirby's advantage
smashville-kirby's favour
yoshi's-even
lylat-kirby's favour It's a tilting BF. I don't see it being Kirby's advantage
pokemon stadium-ike's favour
halberd-ike's favour
delphino-kirby's favour Ike can hit Kirby through his sharking with Dair. And then we have water camping + wall infinities.
castle seige-even

this is honestly a difficult matchup to do on paper, i guess it depends more on the characters playstyle's, if the ike is more grabbyjabby, its probably going to suit kirby, but if ike is more fairie nairie, then probably even-ish

What Kirby needs is small stages against Ike. It gives Ike less space to move back to avoid pressure and retaliate from outside of Kirby's range. Those stages however also have to not be very good for Ike in some way. For example, Green Greens is small, but also a very good Ike stage. Kirby also has a few other random stages where he probably has the advantage, due to gimmicks like his Down B on that one side of Pictochat.

BTW: I wasn't saying Kirby doesn't have the advantage against Ike on Jungle Japes: I was just saying that it's not a bad Ike stage. >_>

Heartstring · Sep 3, 2010

ive spiked aerial peeps with eruption before, got barrel of laughs from it as it won me a money match. <(^-^)>

@niddo thats what i was think with yoshi's but there we have the ghost and stuff to save us from edgeguarding which makes it jsut abotu even.

ok so lyalt is probably more evne, but i was think alnog the lineso f the tilting messing up aether a little

final destination is jsut generally a poor ike stage

delphino, if the kirby sharks well (a.k.a spaces well) our d-tilt is never going to hit, and they have water spiking too, and their dair has more hitboxes than ours

Nidtendofreak · Sep 3, 2010

I said Dair, not Dtilt. You don't stop sharking with Dtilt, that would be stupid. Dair can work though. Their water spiking isn't nearly as strong.

FD isn't a bad Ike stage. It's just that it's rare for it to be one of the top options for Ike.

Lylat's tilting can also mess up Kirby's Up B about the same amount it can mess up Ike's Aether, except it's less likely to happen due to more jumps.

Triple R · Sep 3, 2010

Our water spiking on delfino is really bad just to let you know. Both or dair and last hit of Final Cutter will probably not kill you. They both won't kill until really high percents, or if the stage happens to start moving at the right time.

AN(M)ist · Sep 3, 2010

Golden-psyco said:
ive spiked aerial peeps with eruption before, got barrel of laughs from it as it won me a money match. <(^-^)>

You must be seeing stage spike. eruption shoots upwards so there is always a high chance of stage spike near the ledge. Didn't you read Red-X's post? Ike has 2 hard spike (dtilt and first few frames of dair) and one soft spike (aether when canceled by grabbing the ledge, or aether dragging).

Heartstring · Sep 3, 2010

no, it wasnt a stage spike, because it was offstage, he knocked by up into the corners (DI) and guarded against another atack by throwing out a random eruption, and he went down instead of up

fromundaman · Sep 3, 2010

Golden-psyco said:
no, it wasnt a stage spike, because it was offstage, he knocked by up into the corners (DI) and guarded against another atack by throwing out a random eruption, and he went down instead of up

Freakishly good SDI?

AN(M)ist said:
Just so you know, rolling through jab is a bad idea, ike can turn around just as fast and start jabbing you again or even land a ftilt on you if he sees the roll, the IASA of rolling permits him to do so.

And good Ike's do not use dsmash, they are better off using utilt (unless ofcourse something new pops up from dsmash in the future, but thats unlikely).

Ah, okay. Take that back then.

I'm sorry, the Dsmash comment is one I probably shouldn't have put out there, because it's a decent move against me personally, since the guy I play only uses it when he reads me correctly and abuses one of my bad habits with it.

Sage JoWii · Sep 3, 2010

Golden-psyco said:
well yes, regardless its hardly like anywhere is gonna use ptad.

pokemon stadium-ike's favour

PS1 not being Kirby's favor? You're obviously clueless to think that so I'll be the one to correct ya. And understandably no one is gonna have PTAD as an option but I don't think that means we shouldn't talk about it since it can be an option.

Triple R said:
Our water spiking on delfino is really bad just to let you know. Both or dair and last hit of Final Cutter will probably not kill you. They both won't kill until really high percents, or if the stage happens to start moving at the right time.

THIS! Delfino has nothing for Kirby. It has nothing against Kirby but has nothing for him; basically there are better options.

Lord Viper · Sep 3, 2010

★ Sadly for Ike, the odds of seeing Pirate Ship or Green Greens in a tournament is low, so he's only got doesn't have many stages the serve a real advantage stage on Kirby while Kirby has many on him. Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island, and Frigate Orpheon. Pokemon Stadium is only a good choice for Kirby if the starter since we don't have a big advantage on PS1 vs Ike, the next best starter is Final Destination, the best is Yoshi's Island, IMO. Battlefield should be stage strike vs Ike. I haven't played Ike on Port Town Aero Dive to say it's a good counter pick. ♛

★ Match up wise, I don't think this match up change over the year. Still an advantage match up I'll say. ♛

Nidtendofreak · Sep 3, 2010

IMO, PS1 is Ike's best starter JoWii. Wall infinities, platforms the right height for various things, heck I beat our local D3 there with Ike. And that's the only game I've ever taken off of him. >_>

Green Greens is legal at MLG, that's good enough for me.

Lylat isn't Kirby's advantage. It's probably "even" ground for them. Same with YI unless Kirby has a Down B glitch there. I know he has it on Pictochat and Brinstar.

The only thing that has changed MU wise is that we now have an idea of what % Bthrow -> Dash Attack is a true combo. On average it's 15% to 90%. I think on Kirby it's like, 19% to 86% or something like that.

Ussi · Sep 3, 2010

For Rainbow Cruise, what positional advantages does Kirby have on the boat and the side scrolling on top?

The general strategy on Rainbow Cruise for Ike is to camp and stay in areas where its hard to be knocked away to be gimped during 1/3 of the stage (basically the rising up till the pendulum disappears part) then carry on with a stage where you can't get gimped.

Kewkky · Sep 3, 2010

Kirby's positional advantage on RC's boat is below the platforms, close to the wall. We can string moves with platforms nearby, and the wall stops us from sliding too far if someone hits our shield with a strong attack, not to mention the obvious "I'm below you" stuff that Kirby can do if an opponent is on higher ground. That's Kirby's optimal position against Ike, since being close to the sides of the ship means we'll be close to the blastzones, and good ol' Ike likes to hit hard.

Kirby's positional advantage on the side-scrolling area on top of RC is simply remaining ahead of Ike. Eventually we'll all have to go down, and Ike will be forced to go down on the falling platforms at the left side of the big block, or he will go down on the jump-through platforms on its right side. Either choice is a good thing for Kirby, since you're indirectly approaching us, else you risk dying off the top...

That's our optimal positions, but we can do very well throughout the whole stage, provided we stay ahead and force you to indirectly approach us.

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