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Pit Matchup Discussion - Falco.

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Esca

Esca

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Back in the day, Kown and I discussed this.

Don't CP to Frigate. It's bad for Falco but it's worse for Pit.

Japes is decent for this matchup. Just camp the right platform.
 
FrznSaber

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Delfino is a legal Starter/CP in most regions. Delfino has its ups and downs. A positive aspect being how the map isn't entirely leveled so it maybe easier to escape his CG and lasers would be easier to avoid. , but at the same time, gimping isn't as effective here. As an Ike main, Delfino is favorable for recovery purposes, I would assume the same to be true for Falco.
 
Katana_koden

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Dalfino is quite bad for falco on recovery, well compared to most stages, its not such a good option.

Dalfino's stages continuous rising makes his illusion pass through or just below the stage. Ike's might be a bit different. Ike has disjointed hitboxes, so I doubt I'll shark him.
 
Kool Aid

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beginning of the match spam arrows. some will hit some he will reflect.. once u get 30%
go in... he won't be able to chaingrab you. trust me this works.
 
VonDarkmoon

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Yes falco does have the CG>Spike, but depending upon the stage, you're usually fine in just going under it and going to the other side and just recovering on that side overall.

Pit also has a CG on Falco til about 30% and then it's a guaranteed Dash attack to maybe an Usmash.

the match-up might still be 55-45 in falco's favor, but i'd also call it really close to 50-50
 
Nitrix

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Do not get grabbed at the start. Jabs help alot since Pit's jab also hits behind him so its good coverage. After you have a decent percentage, go in and start attacking.

Some Falco's expect Pit to spam arrows on the ground. If this is the case, full hop arrows to evade their SH Lazers and still hit with the bent arrows. Of course Falco can start jumping up higher and lazering, but this usually gives some easy damage. Plus if you get Falco to stop lazering and trying to reflect your bent arrows, then you are gaining control and dictating his response which is key.

In terms of actually fighting close range, jab and moves like Angel Ring can help a ton against the spot-dodge --> grab strategy that many Falco's employ. Lots of Falcos also like to SH Lazers and then combo into attacks at close range. If you can predict this, Angel Ring is a great counter since it reflects their lazers, approaches them and deals damage. The only tricky part is managing Angel Ring's startup since it isn't fast enough to use between lazers. Thus you must predict.

If you can force Falco to use his up-b then you are in a very good position. Pegging Falco a few times in the air to prevent his side-b will do this. Once in this position you can simply edgehog to prevent his recovery, or hit him out of it once again.
 
Krystedez

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My room mate mains falco, striving to be the best, uses bdacus almost perfectly now and he's my main training partner.

Full hopped bent arrows or short hopped bent arrows will hit him in the head of you hold it for a second and time it right when he shoots off the reflector (you should shoot your arrow right when he kicks it)

Whenever possible, avoid lasers and the reflected arrows by looping them into his reflector from the front. Also, for a mix up at long range, looped arrows from the rear will throw him off if you have good aim. When he gets hit so many times with arrows, it makes them start to consider changing their current position at least. If they don't this match can last for 8 minutes with the two of you spamming and camping. So either you sacrifice or just stay strong and avoid as many lasers as you can and stay below the threshold and above the other (40~50 percent)

If you get above 40, that's fine, but anything above 50 during long range combat means you need to quit getting hit by your own arrows and his lasers. His lasers don't do that much, your arrows do. Take advantage of that. Don't get frustrated.

As far as close-range combat goes, the problem with Angel Ring is that it has high ending lag enough for Falco to laser you, fsmash you, tilt, grab, anything. I suggest using full jab or infinite jab on Falco if you are in the middle of the stage at 40+, otherwise just roll away to avoid the chaingrab.

The game favors Pit when Falco is in the air, or off stage. Fair is highly recommended for his aerials except for bair, in which case a fast falling bair or sweet spotted bair to his face when he rises toward you is a good strat.

Illusion plays a part in the difficulty of gimping Falco, so your best bet is to condition him to use it to avoid your offstage pursuit (which the best one is WoI refresh-> fly off stage with WoI and fair/turnaround-bair him, if you can).

Once he starts getting used to this, you can predict and punish, tricking him with a WoI cancel on the ground while he's at the optimal distance for an illusion.
 
Krystedez

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(large enough for a second post)...?

My PERSONAL Cps...:

Brinstar (<3), Norfair (if not banned), Lylat (good neutral but usually striked), Delfino, Rainbow Cruise (I'm serious), Pictochat (better than FD imo), PS1.

I know, it's long, but hear me out.

Brinstar, even so coming from a wario main, is decent for pit. You have plenty of planky-goodness. Acid doesnt scare you because you can jump multiple times. You are always decently close to Falco, so he can't run away as much on this stage. You can kill faster just like he can, but your kill moves are easier to hit in this type of range (medium range is best for Falco, but his personal space is violated heavily on this stage). Illusion won't be much of a problem, can be very predictable. Extended hit boxes, albeit favoring the two of you, will favor Pit a lot if you can catch him off guard mid roll or mid-SHDL, or even just recovering (on the side vines). Bair on the vines is delicious if you hit it, and you can scare Falco under the stage because if he illusions above it's practically a free arrow/predicted hit anywhere. You can pressure him more than he can pressure you. His SHDL will be interrupted by his lack of personal space if you just roll with timing.

Norfair is just a personal pick, you can arrow loop easier, they can hit him from under the platforms easier, and it's so big that he's gunna have trouble killing you aside from the occasional screwup you make and get uaired. his kill potential is limited far more than yours.

Lylat is good becaus eof reasons stated earlier.

RC is a given, I don't know if any of you have discussed it, but I wouldn't mind going into what I think makes the stage wonderful for Pit. ;)

Pictochat, if mastered, is a dangerous CP, you can predict a lot of crap here and take advantage. I only suggest it if your opponent is not used to the stage or you know you're in better knowledge of the stage elements as they play a big role in your approach habits.

PS1 is a love or hate type of thing. Falco can excel here as well, but frequent stage changes are good for upsets and throws off his laser game.

Finally, for the starter stage, I always reccomend SV for the pure fact you have dominion of the top platform all the time. BF is okay, but I've had a lot more trouble there than SV.
 
Nikenick

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Lylat is really good against Falco since he can't spam when the stage is tilted and you can. It will also mess up his recovery a bit.

BF is a good stage for Falco, I noticed that when I played SK92. He can jump + phantasm to land on the platform and run away from you, it's so annoying. I'd suggest not CPing BF against Falco.
 
Krystedez

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Does SK92 have any specific mannerisms that make his Falco stand out, Nick? Like, for me, I faced DEHF (with wario) and his main habit or attack was bair from under platforms (easily predicted and punished).

The mannerisms or habits you grasp from the falco user can greatly help you in the thick of a fight too.
 
Krystedez

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IMO, RC is decent because you can glide, WoI refresh everywhere, pursue the opponent and pressure them/condition them into doing something on such an odd stage to do they don't want to happen, and punish for that. . .

That, and more I will explain later, I can't get my room mate to play on RC or Norfair very often so we'll see what happens if I can explain better.. (He'll agree with RC more often than Norfair).
 
Sovereign

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Krystedez said:
IMO, RC is decent because you can glide, WoI refresh everywhere, pursue the opponent and pressure them/condition them into doing something on such an odd stage to do they don't want to happen, and punish for that. . .

That, and more I will explain later, I can't get my room mate to play on RC or Norfair very often so we'll see what happens if I can explain better.. (He'll agree with RC more often than Norfair).
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Krys, he needs to learn to play on those stages because someone at SiiS3 is bound to take him there, since it is going to be over 100 people.

But that's also a prime weakness for quite a few players, they're so conservative on their stage practice that they only know the neutrals, and nothing outside of that range. RC or Norfair would cripple them pretty hard, if cp'd. I think as Kryz said, those stages are great for Pit, due to WoI and refreshing, which allows just as much aerial mobility as MK normally has.
 
Nikenick

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Krystedez said:
Does SK92 have any specific mannerisms that make his Falco stand out, Nick? Like, for me, I faced DEHF (with wario) and his main habit or attack was bair from under platforms (easily predicted and punished).

The mannerisms or habits you grasp from the falco user can greatly help you in the thick of a fight too.
Click to expand...
Pit's air speed isn't that good, so you can't really punish a good spaced bair with Pit if he's under the platform and you're on it. He'd utilt too, and just spam spam spam spam spam phantasm spam spam spam. It's really annoying since Falco outcamps you. Imo is BF better for Falco than SV because of that. You should just stay in your down b the whole time when he spams, Falco can't do anything about that so he has to approach.
 
Sovereign

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I would like to add that Port Town Aero Dive is an excellent stage for Pit, and is honestly one of my personal favorites to go to when I use him, since his wings cancel knockback, creating some interesting and troublesome situations for the opponent.
 
dualseeker

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Nikenick said:
Pit's air speed isn't that good, so you can't really punish a good spaced bair with Pit if he's under the platform and you're on it. He'd utilt too, and just spam spam spam spam spam phantasm spam spam spam. It's really annoying since Falco outcamps you. Imo is BF better for Falco than SV because of that. You should just stay in your down b the whole time when he spams, Falco can't do anything about that so he has to approach.
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I agree. But the one thing you have to watch out for is not staying in Mirror Shield for too long. You don't want to be grabbed. Also watch out for any mind games the Falco may have, as he can go back to camping as soon as you let up Mirror Shield. Just try not to get too predictable when you use Mirror Shield, because you don't want to open yourself up for a grab, which can be deadly in many situations.

@Sovereign: Wouldn't Port Town Aero Drive be a bad stage for Pit in this MU? If Falco manages to land a Dair on us while we Shark him, that could put us in a bad position. And the fact that we can't grab any ledges while on the moving platform could spell doom if he hits us out of WoI. But, it does pose problems for him too. He can't grab platforms either, and his short Up B recovery range does help in gimping him. But, as I said, it might be easier for him to gimp us too.
 
Krystedez

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A bird that can jump high or an angel that can fly.

Which one is more likely to be gimped? Not being an ***, I'm just thinking here, since this IS brawl.
 
Gadiel_VaStar

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I've been playing a few wifi matches earlier today and apparantly- Pit's Dair beats out Falco's Side-B. Has anyone else experienced that?
 
E

Elyssa Xey Hexen

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Gadiel_VaStar said:
I've been playing a few wifi matches earlier today and apparantly- Pit's Dair beats out Falco's Side-B. Has anyone else experienced that?
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*sigh* Another phantasm lesson. ANY ATTACK WILL HIT FALCO OUT OF PHANTASM

There is a brief one frame in the middle of the attack where falco appearence in phantasm between the ending and starting points of the attack. Falco teleports to those 3 locations in the span of 2 frames. In those two frames exist the hitbox behind falco's locations. The rest of the time is cooldown/start-up lag for the attack.
 
Ayoub

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Xeylode said:
*sigh* Another phantasm lesson. ANY ATTACK WILL HIT FALCO OUT OF PHANTASM

There is a brief one frame in the middle of the attack where falco appearence in phantasm between the ending and starting points of the attack. Falco teleports to those 3 locations in the span of 2 frames. In those two frames exist the hitbox behind falco's locations. The rest of the time is cooldown/start-up lag for the attack.
Click to expand...
Good to know.
 
Damix91

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I dont think falco outcamps pit as much as people suggest. His reflector isnt an issue as arrows as you can toe/headshot him to escape retaliation. HIs lasers are good but can be nullified by reflecting/dogding or if your practised wingdashing. Near to him A SH Nair or ART can cancel out his and approach stopping any laser to Gatling combos or whatever.
 
dualseeker

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Damix91 said:
I dont think falco outcamps pit as much as people suggest. His reflector isnt an issue as arrows as you can toe/headshot him to escape retaliation. HIs lasers are good but can be nullified by reflecting/dogding or if your practised wingdashing. Near to him A SH Nair or ART can cancel out his and approach stopping any laser to Gatling combos or whatever.
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Problem is, since Falco's reflector travels outward a bit, Arrows still have a chance of hitting us, even if we curve them. You have to be standing pretty far away so your Arrows don't hit you. Also, it's not easy to dodge them, as you will have to Spot Dodge ALL THE TIME if the Falco knows how to SH Laser. The best thing to do is SH and use Angel Ring to reflect any lasers. You won't get the lunge of Angel Ring (unless you perform ART), so it can be useful for spacing. Can Wing Dashing cancel his lasers, though? I've never checked, although I don't think they do. And the thing is, almost every attack Falco has either clanks or cancels our Angel Ring. If you do manage to land an ART on him, then don't keep it out for too long, as Falco has many ways to punish Angel Ring. His gattling range is ridiculous, though X__X. Watch out for its range.
 
BumbleBomb

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Falco is truly one of the most annoying matches, that CG is enough to make me wanna rage quit lol because If I do have somewhat of a lead the CG can close that gap. I face a falco main thats quick to CG at low %, loves to be defensive with lasers, and unleash combos that either end in a fsmash or usmash. I get so frustrated I just wanna throw the controller across the room. I know I just need more practice...
 
Blubolouis

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Well if we're bumping this... I find SH Nair useful to overcome his instant illusion onstage. Quicker than AR and puts him in a bad position.

BumbleBomb>take it from an offensive pit: this MU is one where you wanna camp your *** off each time you're at 0%. If you approach too soon, you're gonna get a huge lot of damage (i know 'bout the controller thing D: ), so make him do it and make him pay for it or wait till at least 40%, even if you feel you're being outcamped (which will stop when you gain experience)
 
Nitrix

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Falco is a very annoying character if you don't have a plan going into the match. Here is generally how I handle the match....

- Go to BF, less space means for less lazers. Also the stage is smaller so there is less distance to CG, and its easier to push Falco offstage. Some sneaky Falco's try to phantasm into you right when the match starts, watch for that.

- Don't actually engage Falco in any real combat until you are around 30% at least. Don't get grabbed obviously.

- Falco is really annoying because he will lazer you and then mix-up with Phantasm when you are trying to approach. This will lead to aerials. What you need to remember is that Angel Ring inturrupts his Phantasm. Also, when Falco is trying to approach with SH lazers you can Angel Ring and counter his spam while landing hits. Also remember you have multi-hit attacks to use like Angel Ring and N-Air when Falco is spot-dodge crazy.

- Shooting SH Arrows can surprise a Falco since the arrows can hit Falco but not you if they are reflected

- Be careful with Jabbing. Falco's jab is damn nasty if you get caught up in it, and it is faster than Pit's (Pits is 6 when Falco's is 2 I believe.....) . The speed of Falco's jab can interrupt yours which can lead to jab cancels, grabs and nasty stuff like that.

- Don't panic when you are at a high %. If you avoid Falco's KO moves, then you have a fair chance of a comeback.

- Try to arrow him when he is recovering. If you land an arrow when he wants to phantasm then he will be forced to up-b. If you can hit him out of the up-b, then you've probably got him. Gimping Falco turns into a bit of a mindgame since you can prevent them from phantasming to the ledge if you time an arrow properly. This means they either go on-stage or up-b from below stage. Both options aren't that great.


In the end this matchup is annoying because Falco can chaingrab and because Pit cannot sit back and spam arrows. However Pit can kill much earlier than Falco, and can gimp Falco with arrows while Falco cannot easily gimp Pit. its a close battle.
 
pulse131

pulse131

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camp the edge til you high enough o.o
i dont mean stay on the edge, i mean edge of the stage. not too much to where you get knocked off, more so to the point where if you DO get hit by a laser it wont knock you off. not to say that a pit on the edge stand for one irritated as shlt flacko, nevertheless if he gets anywhere near you pretty much just jab or fsmash.
worst case scenario you hit his shield and fall off the stage out of range of the grab.
the pit i play constantly worries way to much about the cg. if you watch alot of dk/wario vs falco, or simular mu's where getting chain grabbed is that much more deadly, the good falcos tend to just play normally, and if they get the grab, then the go with it. this is more common amongst flackoh that really know the mk mu.
angle your arrows so he dosnt reflect em back up your butt.
if hes off stage and if he lost his second jump dont let him come back. play really smart and chances are that'll be the stock. arrows and jab, maybe a smash, til he gets under the stage and make him suffer.
id say id right more later cuz there is alot more TOO right but im way too damned lazy
 
BumbleBomb

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I believe I can outcamp him on stages with platforms because of my arrows. I just need to have an answer when I get him to come to me. His combos are brutal, so I wanna know if pit is capable of his own combos. It's hard to rely on just mindgames. It may be that pit isn't a great combo character despite his multihit moves and that's ok I just need to be sure...
 
dualseeker

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Nitrix said:
Falco is a very annoying character if you don't have a plan going into the match. Here is generally how I handle the match....

- Go to BF, less space means for less lazers. Also the stage is smaller so there is less distance to CG, and its easier to push Falco offstage. Some sneaky Falco's try to phantasm into you right when the match starts, watch for that.

- Don't actually engage Falco in any real combat until you are around 30% at least. Don't get grabbed obviously.
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I agree with a lot of what you said, Nitrix. Falco is probably one of the few characters I'd recommend going to BF on. Less room to camp, less room to CG etc. etc.

While staying near the edge is a GREAT way to prevent being CG'd, watch out for Falco's who REVERSE Chain Grab to extend the Chain Grab. Only a few Falco's I know have done it, but can be very annoying, since it does prolong the Chain grab even further. Although, I'm pretty sure it's possible to get out of a Chain Grab if a Falco desides to Reverse Chain grab, although I'm not too certain.

Another mind-game to watch out for is if the Falco rolls behind you when you're near the ledge, and then tries to grab you. It's a bit noticeable, so you should be able to dodge it, but just be aware that some will try to do that in order to prolong a Chain Grab.

Also, be careful when using Angel Ring, as Falco's Ftilt beats us out of it. Just be sure not to use Angel Ring too close to Falco, and make sure not to use it for too long.

Also, I can't stress this enough, it's a VERY good idea to wait until you're about at 30-40% before going in to start challenging Falco close range. Sure, that's a hefty amount of damage, but the damage you could get from a Chain Grab in the middle of the stage is worse than 40%.

Also, I have a question:

In the end this matchup is annoying because Falco can chaingrab and because Pit cannot sit back and spam arrows. However Pit can kill much earlier than Falco, and can gimp Falco with arrows while Falco cannot easily gimp Pit. its a close battle.
Click to expand...
Is it true that Pit can kill earlier than Falco? I can understand if it's Bair, but I don't think Pit's smashes beat some of Falco's smashes, like Usmash, which is just as annoying as Fox's.

EDIT:
BumbleBomb said:
I believe I can outcamp him on stages with platforms because of my arrows. I just need to have an answer when I get him to come to me. His combos are brutal, so I wanna know if pit is capable of his own combos. It's hard to rely on just mindgames. It may be that pit isn't a great combo character despite his multihit moves and that's ok I just need to be sure...
Click to expand...
And to answer your question, Bumble:
Falco will generally beat Pit at close range because almost all of Falco's moves outrange Pit's. Also, Falco's close range moves are more powerful than Pit's, and more annoying, such as his jab, which is much worse than Pit's is. Generally, you WILL have to rely on some mindgames to get the upper hand, but there are some ways we can take advantage of him in close range.

Getting Falco in the air is a good way to get some damage, since we generally do better in the air than Falco does. Just be careful when you are under him, since his Dair is pretty powerful. Just make sure you angle yourself where his Dair won't hit you and use Uair to get some damage on him. Also, on the ground, usually Dtilt will either beat his jab and hit him, or just cancel his jab, but either way it does create a good opening. And Ftilt is a great move if you can space it well, since it does have good range and good knock back.

A trick I learned to use, although I'm not sure if it's a good one, is to Short Hop and then Air Dodge towards them. Ideally, you should try to position yourself to land behind them, then use Utilt. It's a good way to cause damage also if they get hit by it, and you can follow up with an assault in the air if they aren't at too high of a percentage.

But basically, you are going to have to be careful when you are facing Falco close range because he still has many more advantages than we do. His moves are generally just better than ours, but we can still win since we have our own advantages.

Also, I forgot to mention, watch out when you're at kill percents. A Falco can Grab you>Dthrow>DACUS and kill you on the spot. It works if the Falco is good enough and knows how to DACUS consistently. It's a bit of a pain, but try not to leave yourself open for a grab near the endgame either, because this move can take a stock off of you really quickly.
 
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