Yoshi v. Donkey Kong [Summary Updated: 8/17/2009]

Delta-cod · Dec 20, 2009

MOG, I really liked that video. Very good abuse of landing frames, which are very important to use against everyone.

So I played a DK last Sunday in tourny and found that DK has NO options to return from the ledge once you get him to 100%. Get up is slow and can be punished. Roll is too slow. Get up attack is too slow and has less range. He can't jump from the ledge without you punishing his landing frames. He can't hang from the ledge because you can egg him as he's hanging. If he ledge drops you can still egg his Up-B.

I was actually really glad I noticed this during the set, since I abused it to hell, racking up about 250% per stock before killing him. I was playing really cautiously, DK's killing power scares me. XD

Z'zgashi · Sep 21, 2010

Alright, next up is DK.

Poltergust · Sep 22, 2010

DK's awkward. I don't think I can readily type something up for him.

I'll just wait and see how other people think about the match-up before posting anything.

Airborne · Sep 22, 2010

I play this MU TOO F*CKING MUCH OMFGGGG
I'll write a MU summary soon I s'pose.

YOSHssb · Sep 22, 2010

I actually like this MU. DK definitely has a lot of power and he can absorb a lot of damage and live for freaking ever. But after playing Bigfoot and Ripple, I think the MU is at least 50:50 if not more in Yoshi's favor. I'd say Yoshi has a bigger advantage, but I haven't fought a DK in a while so things may have changed.

Airborne · Sep 23, 2010

The main problem about this MU is that it's like fighting a more mobile snake, minus the ridiculous stage control; a couple reads will cost you piles of damage. However, it's quite easy for us to return the damage upon him, especially since his shield is purdy bad and he's a bulky character.

Egglay is probably the best move in this MU, especially since it beats out Giant Punch, due to the fact that we have grab armor, whereas they only have super armor.

Zoning DK with eggs is far easier than other characters, because, well, this business man is large. If he gets by them, he'll probably punish you with ease. This'll happen if he predicts what area you're zoning him from, or if you just plain throw your eggs incorrectly. Of course, you should only throw eggs at mid range or closer IF he's in the air, restricting his mobility and disallowing him from shielding.

There are two moments that you would rather not want to see in this MU:
- When DK has a fully charged giant punch. Although we have the simple egglaying solution to deal with his life-threatening super armor, you should never like the idea of possibly getting punched for 20-something %, or getting killed very early. He'll eat through any attack you throw at him and revenge hit you for it; that's why DK players f*cking laugh at Lucario's fsmash. Him having super armor means no usmash da usmash, Delta. =(
- When DK has his back to you. We can't beat bair head on. Also, be aware of short hop bairs, due to the fact that they can follow it up with giant punch or side-b, which will destroy anyone that attempts to shield.

I can't remember what else I was gonna write because I am contemplating on picking up Vampire Savior. : D

Deleted member · Sep 23, 2010

I feel like donkey punch is kinda really predictable. I never ever try to trade with DK when he has that move, just get out. he doesnt set up into it or anything, its worst if they punish landings, but DKs rarely do that with neutral B

Z'zgashi · Sep 23, 2010

burntsocks said:
I feel like GIANT punch is kinda really predictable. I never ever try to trade with DK when he has that move, just get out. he doesnt set up into it or anything, its worst if they punish landings, but DKs rarely do that with neutral B

Just felt like pointing that out.

YOSHssb · Sep 23, 2010

Yeah, the only real set-up to a donkey punch is a short-hop side-B. The start-up time on it is enough that you should be able to react and get away, but we all make mistakes, and a spot-dodge at the wrong time can easily turn into a lost stock.

Getting a percent lead in this match shouldn't be that hard. He's ginormous and like... every combo works on him. The only real problem I see in the MU is getting the kill. He has to be at pretty high percentages to guarantee enough knockback for the kill, and you're sure to take some damage yourself along the way. And since DK kills earlier than Yoshi, having only 90% when DK has 180% is closer to even than I'd be comfortable with (especially if you have to get close to him for a kill).

I agree with Air that the egg-lay is probably the best move in this MU. DK's aerial game is not that great (except for back-aerial), so an egg-lay instantly puts him in the air and gives Yoshi momentum.

It's been a while since I've played the MU (as I said), but I remember grab release to be pretty good actually. You always know how he's gonna break out of it, and if he doesn't jump, then you can regrab him, so most likely he will jump which leaves him vulnerable for a landing punish whenever he does have to come down. With the grab release, he's also gonna be facing toward you, so that should eliminate his back-aerial (or at least reduce the threat of it greatly).

Poltergust · Sep 23, 2010

We still have to be extremely careful, though. It's like fighting a Lucario with a fully-charged Aura Sphere/Samus with a Charge Shot/Diddy with a Banana/Mr. Game & Watch with Bucket/etc.

Mess up and you are going to take a ton of damage and possibly get KOed.

YOSHssb · Sep 23, 2010

so can't you theoretically just approach this MU the exact same way? Bait the big attacks through spacing and then keep the pressure on so they can't get another thing ready. I guess it seems simple in text but not as perfect in actual play, but still the idea should be the same.

Poltergust · Sep 23, 2010

Yeah, but the problem is when you try to get that kill move. If DK has his Punch ready, then it's going to be tough to find an opportunity to safely land that move.

YOSHssb · Sep 23, 2010

Then just follow Air's idea. Use the egg-lay when you get close and that'll keep you from getting punched, and if he does use it, then you're safe to go in, and if he doesn't, then you can keep doing it. Also, since he'll pop up into the air, that puts him in a terrible position which should make getting close for a kill easier.

Airborne · Sep 23, 2010

burntsocks said:
I feel like donkey punch is kinda really predictable. I never ever try to trade with DK when he has that move, just get out. he doesnt set up into it or anything, its worst if they punish landings, but DKs rarely do that with neutral B

You haven't played the right DK's then. Giant Punch is meant for the element of surprise, and top-level DK's actually do recommend punishing landings with Giant Punch.

Poltergust said:
We still have to be extremely careful, though. It's like fighting a Lucario with a fully-charged Aura Sphere/Samus with a Charge Shot/Diddy with a Banana/Mr. Game & Watch with Bucket/etc.

Mess up and you are going to take a ton of damage and possibly get KOed.

^This.

Poltergust said:
Yeah, but the problem is when you try to get that kill move. If DK has his Punch ready, then it's going to be tough to find an opportunity to safely land that move.

Yeah, being in kill %'s on your last stock when he has a charged punch is going to limit your options for the rest of the match.

YOSHssb said:
Then just follow Air's idea. Use the egg-lay when you get close and that'll keep you from getting punched, and if he does use it, then you're safe to go in, and if he doesn't, then you can keep doing it. Also, since he'll pop up into the air, that puts him in a terrible position which should make getting close for a kill easier.

There's one thing that I didn't mention... DK has his ways around this move; if he can predict the egglay then he can most likely:
a)swat you out of the air before that 17th frame comes out
b)out-space it with a nice lovely fsmash

We have to be as unpredictable with egg-lay as they are with Giant Punch, or else they will destroy us.

YOSHssb · Sep 23, 2010

I assume you're referring to the up-tilt for swatting out of the air? If so, can't you just use a DJC egg-lay? I don't think DK's been done on the heavy-armor thread for the double jump, but it doesn't seem like up-tilt would knock you out of that. So assuming you approach that way, that leaves forward-smash to actually work. And you say that he'd have to out-space us, which is easier said than done given how much faster in the air Yoshi is than DK on the ground.

I don't know how you guys use it, but I personally don't really use the egg-lay unless it's a wave-bounce or DJC. Makes it less predictable (especially if I'm approaching while facing away).

Z'zgashi · Sep 23, 2010

YOSHssb said:
Yeah, the only real set-up to a GIANT punch is a short-hop side-B. The start-up time on it is enough that you should be able to react and get away, but we all make mistakes, and a spot-dodge at the wrong time can easily turn into a lost stock.

Getting a percent lead in this match shouldn't be that hard. He's ginormous and like... every combo works on him. The only real problem I see in the MU is getting the kill. He has to be at pretty high percentages to guarantee enough knockback for the kill, and you're sure to take some damage yourself along the way. And since DK kills earlier than Yoshi, having only 90% when DK has 180% is closer to even than I'd be comfortable with (especially if you have to get close to him for a kill).

I agree with Air that the egg-lay is probably the best move in this MU. DK's aerial game is not that great (except for back-aerial), so an egg-lay instantly puts him in the air and gives Yoshi momentum.

It's been a while since I've played the MU (as I said), but I remember grab release to be pretty good actually. You always know how he's gonna break out of it, and if he doesn't jump, then you can regrab him, so most likely he will jump which leaves him vulnerable for a landing punish whenever he does have to come down. With the grab release, he's also gonna be facing toward you, so that should eliminate his back-aerial (or at least reduce the threat of it greatly).

Yeaaah....

I find bair retardedly annoying, it hits sooo far! His tilts are pretty good and are more than safe on our shield, uair juggles decent (lol, dk juggling yoshi), and he kills yoshi much earlier than most characters.

Airborne · Sep 23, 2010

YOSHssb said:
I assume you're referring to the up-tilt for swatting out of the air? If so, can't you just use a DJC egg-lay? I don't think DK's been done on the heavy-armor thread for the double jump, but it doesn't seem like up-tilt would knock you out of that. So assuming you approach that way, that leaves forward-smash to actually work. And you say that he'd have to out-space us, which is easier said than done given how much faster in the air Yoshi is than DK on the ground.

I don't know how you guys use it, but I personally don't really use the egg-lay unless it's a wave-bounce or DJC. Makes it less predictable (especially if I'm approaching while facing away).

You've never been killed by a DK utilt, have you?

YOSHssb · Sep 23, 2010

Nope, but like I said, I've only played two DK mains: Ripple and Bigfoot, and they were both about a year ago or more. I'm just going by theory on this MU.

Poltergust · Sep 23, 2010

U-tilt doesn't kill because it's stale by the time you are in kill percentage for it.

It's a nice kill move while fresh; it just has an awful stale rate or something (do some attacks stale more than others?).

Airborne · Sep 23, 2010

My point behind the utilt is that its base knockback is enough to potentially knock us out of heavy armor earlier than you would think; my guess is probably ~70-80%, and yes that's early for me.

But yeah, my point about egg-lay is to not get in the mindset that this MU is free because of egg-lay, and to not rely on egg-lay. Sure, egg-lay could probably move into the staple list, out of mix-up, but keep that Yomi 3 in mind.

Edit: I say this MU is probably 55-45 DK. Both characters have easy ways to f*ck each other up for massive damage, but DK has an easier time killing. However, we have more kill set-ups, due to egg zoning/traps, egg-lay follow-ups, 1/2-hit bair follow-ups, jab->downb, etc.

YOSHssb · Sep 23, 2010

I would never say that one move guarantees a win. I wouldn't use egg-lay unless I was pretty sure it's gonna hit. DK does have some nice things. Up-B's hard to hurt off stage, super-armor for a couple moves, stage-spike throw as a kill, extremely heavy, early killing... The only things that he lacks really are a projectile, vertical recovery, and speed, which Yoshi has all 3 of.

You most likely have more DK experience than I do because mine is virtually non-existent, but just by knowing what DK has, I have a hard time thinking this MU is not 50:50 if not 55:45 Yoshi. Hell, I claim that Fox is 50:50, but a lot don't agree with me, so you could be right. Any way we can get some DK players in here to keep the discussion going?

Airborne · Sep 23, 2010

YOSHssb said:
I would never say that one move guarantees a win. I wouldn't use egg-lay unless I was pretty sure it's gonna hit. DK does have some nice things. Up-B's hard to hurt off stage, super-armor for a couple moves, stage-spike throw as a kill, extremely heavy, early killing... The only things that he lacks really are a projectile, vertical recovery, and speed, which Yoshi has all 3 of.

You most likely have more DK experience than I do because mine is virtually non-existent, but just by knowing what DK has, I have a hard time thinking this MU is not 50:50 if not 55:45 Yoshi. Hell, I claim that Fox is 50:50, but a lot don't agree with me, so you could be right. Any way we can get some DK players in here to keep the discussion going?

I was about to put 50:50 here, but I'm still not sure; I know it's somewhere between 55:45 and 45:55. I agree that we need some DK's in here.

CelestialMarauder~ · Sep 26, 2010

YOSHssb said:
I don't think DK's been done on the heavy-armor thread for the double jump

Cause im the only one doing it <_< ill do DK tomorrow

Delta-cod · Sep 26, 2010

Hm, guess it's my turn.

Let's preface this with some of my earlier DK exp.

We can ****ing buttrape DK when he's on the ledge above 100%. He's so massively limited there, that we can throw a short egg, and the only real way he can avoid it is by dropping to regrab the ledge (+1 ledge count, yay time outs), or by an airdodge if he's jumping up. The thing is, is that we can punish an air dodge pretty well, and even if he ledge drops > DJAD, he'll probably land and get hit by the egg anyways.

Naturally, DK can get off the ledge, but you should be pressuring his *** all day there. Don't let him off easy, every bit of damage you put on him matters a LOT.

All that was from my first match against DK in tournament. Since then, I've played Will/Cable, who showed me that we didn't **** DK on the ledge THAT easily, although they still really hate it. In fact, they both hate the MU a lot, and I hate it too. Because it's scary as ****.

DK kills SO early that you need to be very careful about making stupid mistakes against him. A stupid mistake can cost you an early stock, which is bad, since we have some trouble outright killing DK.

Generally, you'll want to camp the **** out of DK until you can get in or get some momentum going. Egg toss at long range, dodge his Bairs. Either usmash them or pivot grab them. Just be VERY careful, as a smart wavebounced Headbutt of DONKEY Punch will **** both those options. And that's baaaaaaaaad.

However, when I think about the times I've gotten hit by those things, they're really only used when DK is like, on top of you when he's in the air. So just Usmash, and it can possibly beat both options. I don't remember when the SA is on the punch, but I'm pretty sure if you hit him early enough, you'll be safe. Otherwise, get that DI ready.

When you do hit him with something that's not an egg, follow it up. DK is susceptible to juggling, due to having a crap Dair. Just make sure you're not level with him and make sure that his back isn't facing you, and can pretty much destroy him. Don't be afraid to reset though, forcing things too much can only get you punished, and he can punish you with death in the form of a wavebounced Punch.

As far as gimping him goes, it's pretty hard to do unless you force him into recovering low, which is rare because most of our moves are pretty DIable to the top, except like, Dtilt. Dair works, but don't get footstooled out of it. Fair spike can work if your spacing is good, you need to be above him and abuse the range, so it's tough. You can set it up by Dtilting him as part of your ledge pressure, though.

I personally feel like we win 55:45 to 60:40, at top play. We have the options to avoid everything, but DK's punishes are pretty **** brutal. Just make sure you don't do anything stupid and you should win.

If you play too sloppily, this MU is baaaaaaaaaaaaad for us. You need to be precise.

For Celes: DK beats our HA pretty early. It's scary. >_>

YOSHssb · Sep 27, 2010

Random question. I should know the answer to this, but just making sure:

If we get knocked out of our Heavy Armor, does it deal the same knock-back as it normally would, or is the knock-back reduced any from it?

Greward · Sep 27, 2010

go to the ledge when recovering, juggle and camp.

hi burntsocks =P

Z'zgashi · Sep 27, 2010

YOSHssb said:
Random question. I should know the answer to this, but just making sure:

If we get knocked out of our Heavy Armor, does it deal the same knock-back as it normally would, or is the knock-back reduced any from it?

Normal knockback

Chaosgriffin · Sep 28, 2010

Whenever i play my friend who has a decent Yoshi, he seems to get the fair spike on me while I am in my up-b a good percent of the time like 65% or so. So i do not think that it is too hard to do.

I will agree that the eggs are a good if not great move in this MU, mainly to cause sheild pressure, and random damage. Then you can go in their and shield poke our craptastic shields with bair, dair, even jab lol. But dont abuse this too much, cause we can just bair you before you get in range if we see the approach coming.

Egg-lay and pivot grabbing is also a big thing for Yoshi in this MU, however. Relying on egg-lay to counter punch and other kill moves is not that great of a tactic. Cause if we spotdodge it, you are going to get punished bad, or if we see it coming we can hit you out of it before the grab frames come out. But it can work, I am just saying dont go in there doing egg-lay and expecting to eat up the punch.

Killing is a problem for Yoshi, you need to keep your up-smash, uair, and f-smash as fresh as possible. An easy way to get an uair kill is to get DK in the air with egg lay, bait an air dodge and BAM, dead. Also if DK is recovering you can uair him while he is doing he is up-b from underneath him, that is very hard to mess up. You will most likely never get hit by our up-b if you are under it.

Z'zgashi · Sep 28, 2010

One thing ive found that's helpful and not that hard to do, is every time you would normally fsmash, just ftilt. That way fsmash is always fresh for a ko, and if you angle ftilt up, dk is in a terrible position.

Chaosgriffin · Sep 28, 2010

Z'zgashi said:
One thing ive found that's helpful and not that hard to do, is every time you would normally fsmash, just ftilt. That way fsmash is always fresh for a ko, and if you angle ftilt up, dk is in a terrible position.

Terrible position? Maybe i am thinking about it wrong, but i dont see how thats true.

YOSHssb · Sep 28, 2010

I think he's saying that you'll be put into the air while facing us. An up-angled forward-tilt will send you almost straight up, and most likely you'll be facing each other when you use it, so having DK in the air without being able to use the back-aerial would be a good position for us. At least that's the theory.

Z'zgashi · Sep 28, 2010

Exactly, and since he's only 1 or so character lengths above us AND his dair is slow, his only real option is to air dodge which we can punish quite easily

YOSHssb · Sep 28, 2010

He could jump away and then he'd have his back to us, but he'd be out a second jump. His positioning would be a little better I think, and he could always go for the ledge to reset the field. There are other options as well, but Yoshi on the ground with DK in the air... it's Yoshi's advantage at that point unless the DK mains know something that we don't.

Z'zgashi · Sep 28, 2010

He can't turn around in the air with his double jump like yoshi can though, and since we're faster in both ground and air, we can catch up and hit him with a uair quite easily. Whenever i land utilt on the dk around here, 90% of the time i get a free uair ( not to mention we can follow up with a lot of things out of uair), and the other 10% it resets the field. So really it's a win win for us.

YOSHssb · Sep 28, 2010

Yeah, I guess so. Seems weird to think a character doesn't automatically turn around in mid-air like Yoshi =P

SOVAman · Sep 28, 2010

DK is mad fat

Z'zgashi · Sep 28, 2010

I seriously cant even tell you how awesome this mu is, i love it more than pretty much everything else in the world. And i believe it's yoshi's adv. about 55:45ish

SOVAman · Sep 28, 2010

^^^^^obviously never played a good DK

Chaosgriffin · Sep 28, 2010

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am pretty sure this MU is DK favor, atleast 55:45 if not 60:40

YOSHssb · Sep 28, 2010

Which Yoshis have you played Chaos? Cause you just said your "friend who has a decent Yoshi." Who is this guy and do you have any vids or anything so we know he's a good Yoshi? I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just wondering how you're basing your conclusion, cause just from knowing what each character has, I'm having a hard time seeing it being that hard of a MU for Yoshi.

Yoshi v. Donkey Kong [Summary Updated: 8/17/2009]

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