Match Up Export: Zelda

Sage JoWii · Sep 22, 2010

Overview: Zelda is returning to Brawl, sitting pretty in the lowest of the low tiers. Long smash durations, good camping and the ability to jump a few tier spots w/ her transformations Zelda will be rare MU tbh. Be wary though for if you don't know this MU you could fall prey to 'Lowtierraepitis' and no Kirby likes losing to a Zelda.

Kirby’s Pros and Cons:

+ Excellent gimping game
+ FSmash kills early (90%~)
+ Great close combat
- Floaty, and lightweight
- No range game
- Relatively large, easy to hit frame(gets sweetspotted easily)

Zelda's Pros and Cons:

+ Good camping ability
+ Long smash durations
- Bad recovery, predictable.
- Lightweight (?)
- Fairly bad close combat
- No approach options

Watch out for:
Smash Durations (Shielding) – When shielding Zelda's attacks, realize that all her Smashes have extremely long durations and while shielding 'just long enough' might work against other characters, against Zelda you have to extend the time you spend in shield to fully avoid the smash.

Dtilt – DTilt sets up into whatever the hell Zelda wants (Grab, another DTilt, etc.).

UpB Gimmick – When Kirby gets knocked off the stage he is in the perfect situation to have his recovery read. Basically Zelda will be around mid-stage and UpB to the very edge of the stage, UpB animation ends and she's free to attack, to an UpSmash or UAir. It happens in like the span of 1-2 seconds and if you aren't prepared for it you'll eat a nice chunk of damage.

Din's Fire – I don't feel that I really need to put this down but for newcomers it's worth mentioning. When Kirby is recovering from the stage Zelda will inevitably start throwing Din's Fires; time your airdodge when the Din's Fire starts exploding and be as unpredictable w/ your recovery as possible.

How to win:
Get in – Zelda's strength (if you can call it that) lies in her ability to keep away. Expect the Din's Fire as you make your way in; be unpredictable! Once you're in watch out for her smash if you're spaced properly (shield all of it! Shield longer!) or her DTilt if you're too close. Get the grab off, she's floaty so FThrow>risingFAirX2 should do the trick unless you think Zelda won't DI in which case the Gonzo combo should suffice, and rack the damage! Once you're in just keep the pressure on and force Zelda offstage.

Offstage Zelda! – Raep. iknorite?! Punish her offstage game by either: 1. Get to Zelda as fast as possible and attack attack attack. 2. Read the second jump and attack to stop momentum, then read the UpB. 3. Stay onstage and read/punish.

Pose! – Sweet jesus is Kirbeh sexy. On a srs note, pose is just my way of saying 'When you have the lead, why approach?'. Get that first stock and sit back to relax. Zelda has no approach options whatsoever. Avoid any random Din's Fires, read any UpB attempt, and if she dashes in, read it.

Spit out or Swallow?
Spit out for the extra damage and keep the option of a Kirbicide available. This is not an important part of this MU so it's up to Kirby discretion.

Stages

Will update after discussion.

Synopsis:
It's a pretty straightforward MU. The gameplan is simple: Get in, rack damage, get offstage, win. After that gets you ahead, camp or continue to be in Zelda's face.

Kewkky · Sep 22, 2010

This MU is VERY easy! I can't believe we actually had it even once, I really see it as a large advantage for Kirby now. Only downside is that she can catch us with an usmash if we're not careful. She can't DACUS it, and her hyphen has almost no range, so as long as you know what you're doing and don't open up a window of opportunity for Zelda to usmash you, you shouldn't fear it.

Zelda has smashes with long durations, which is good... But it's also what makes her bad. When she does a move, she commits to it, and her most menacing moves have a lot of commitment (example: uair, our bane). She sucks at being offensive, so your goal in this MU is to zone her with your better mobility until she runs out of space, then bait a committing attack, and punish her for it. Once you get the first hit in, due to her very low airspeed and lack of a decent uair, you can juggle her and string as many hits as you want to, as long as you stay out of fair/bair range.

If she Din's, we can evade it easily: powershielding, shielding, spotdodging, rolling, airdodging, bairing, hell you could even stone on reaction and it would do nothing at all to you! Don't worry about Din's at all. If she could move while doing it that'd be a different story, but that move has so much cooldown that there's no way she can get some sort of frame advantage on us. If we were very heavy and had 2 jumps with a bad upB it might've been quite annoying, but us being light, spacey and having a recovery blessed by Sakurai, even offstage Din's is no threat at all.

So yeah, the tactic in the MU is simple. Rush her down, zone her to the ledge, punish a move, then juggle and kill. She can mix up her landing with an upB, but it's not really a matchup-altering thing since we got some hits in for her to have to do that, anyway.

PS: Careful of her downB. It's her best attack and it might end up helping her win.

PPS: I forgot to add stages! We beat her in every stage, but if you want the best advantages, take platformed stages, stages with high ceilings, or a mixture of both. I personally like BF, but I use it for literally every single MU, so just take my description of stages yu should take her. No platforms = we have only one plane to zone her in and she can try to wall us out better there, platformed stages = we have two planes in which to approach, making for her baiting to be much more effective since she doesn't know how we're gonna get to her.

One of the cool things about this MU is that I have a LOT of experience in it. one of my closest-living friends mains Zelda and goes to tourneys every once in a while when college lets him do so, he never places last and has been improving as of late. I've learned how to deal with Zelda, and really, hovering above her where neither fsmash nor usmash reach makes her retreat since she can't reach us, and pinning her against an edge severely limits her options.

Asdioh · Sep 22, 2010

Shift said:
Zelda is WAY too easy. There isn't anything you need to do against her except bair. Combo her to 40%, bair, bair, bair, get her off the stage and spike. Taking her flashy B skill is a bonus though.

I don't see why the MU is worth discussing. But....

Losing to a Zelda? Very unlikely.

I lost to a Zelda in pools last tourney

it was on Pictochat, and he's a guy that plays pretty much every character, with Kirby being one of his strongest so I imagine he knows Kirby very well, while I was thinking "lol Zelda, easy win"

Dunno what to say, I don't remember much of the match. All I can say is that Zelda doesn't have a "good camping game," her projectile is just awful and you should never be hit by it ever ever.
You can shield it, spotdodge it, airdodge it, I think you can even Bair it, and if you have Zelda's power you can Nayru's Love it.

Her tilts (uptilt especially) are insanely strong, Dsmash comes out quickly, sweetspotted bairs/fairs and her upair will kill you ridiculously early. Kirby is slow in the air, and I think Zelda is pretty quick, so he's an easy target in that regard, but if you're walling Bairs or whatever it will be harder for her.

..oh, I just read Kewkky's post. He already said a lot of this, but he thinks she has slow airspeed compared to Kirby.. I didn't think so...
just checked, Zelda seems to be just a little more mobile in the air.

I really don't know how to SDI her Fsmash and Upsmash, but if I did know how so that it was impossible for them to kill me, I would have a much easier time...

PS: Careful of her downB. It's her best attack and it might end up helping her win.

Kirby does better against Sheik than he does against Zelda imo.

Kewkky · Sep 22, 2010

Asdioh said:
just checked, Zelda seems to be just a little more mobile in the air.

To be fair, she can't weave forward and backwards as fast as Kirby can, nor can she raise or drop as fast as Kirby. We have more aerial control than hr, she is just "shorthop forward/backwards, stay on the ground where it's safe" during the whole fight.

I really don't know how to SDI her Fsmash and Upsmash, but if I did know how so that it was impossible for them to kill me, I would have a much easier time...

You can't SDI the usmash if it's stale, it's impossible, each hit does less that 1%. If the has a fresh usmash, you have to be ready to SDI it before it hits you so that you can pop out immediately. Just QCDI diagonally and you'll be out, otherwise her move will get stale then it'll get impossible to be SDI'd out... For her fsmash, just leave up pressed. QCDI is better though since you then have her committed to an attack and you're free to do whatever you please.

Kirby does better against Sheik than he does against Zelda imo.

Both are very easy MUs for Kirby... This part is pretty subjective though. Some might find Sheik easier, some might not. I personally find Zelda easier, since she's just weak, slower, and dies faster.

Did I mention her horrible grab? We can literally avoid it on reaction. I think it was like 12 frames, the slowest non-tether grab in the game. Same as her pivot and dashgrab, slowest non-tether grabs in the game as well.

And also, her horrible airdodge! I compare it to Peach's, although it probably isn't as bad as her's. She is literally juggle bait in the air, so once you hit her up, she's yours for the taking.

Shift · Sep 22, 2010

Stage Picks: BF, FD, and SV.

it's fairly easy: BF, FD, and SV are ideal. YI is ok, but I wouldn't recommend it, makes your short hop bairs all weird since the ledges of the stage aren't flat.

Stage Ban: Brinstar.

Kirby doesn't do well on it because of the damage Zelda has a possibility of racking up damage including the stage when it gets into the acid. Plus it makes it very difficult to do the 0-40% combo.

Counter-Picks: Delfino & Frigate Orpheon.

Delfino is one of Kirby's best CPs. If it's banned, Frigate Orpheon works. Zelda does horrible there with the stage changing constantly.

Lord Viper · Sep 22, 2010

Battlefield is one of Zelda's best stages, why go there? =P ★

Zelda does well on stages with platforms, but doesn't do well on long stages. Only stages that I know Zelda does better than Kirby would be Battlefield, and Luigi's Mansion, other than that, I have no clue what stage is good for Zelda vs Kirby. ★

Shift · Sep 22, 2010

♛Viper said:
Battlefield is one of Zelda's best stages, why go there? =P ★

Zelda does well on stages with platforms, but doesn't do well on long stages. Only stages that I know Zelda does better than Kirby would be Battlefield, and Luigi's Mansion, other than that, I have no clue what stage is good for Zelda vs Kirby. ★

I don't think Zelda would do that great in BF since it's very easy and quick for Kirby to close the gap to apply pressure on Zelda. Especially in the beginning of every stock! Even if it's her "best" stage, it's nothing to stop the power house that is Kirby. MU is like 80/20 honestly regardless of stage picks...

Except Brinstar. That's a no-no.

Asdioh · Sep 22, 2010

Kewkky said:
And also, her horrible airdodge! I compare it to Peach's, although it probably isn't as bad as her's. She is literally juggle bait in the air, so once you hit her up, she's yours for the taking.

wow I just checked, both their airdodges are awful O_o it's not something I've noticed before, but they like, do an extra twirl after the invincibility is gone and they can't do anything...
Fox's airdodge is top tier :D

Shift said:
Stage Ban: Brinstar.

Kirby doesn't do well on it because of the damage Zelda has a possibility of wracking up including the stage when it gets into the acid. Plus it makes it very difficult to do the 0-40% combo.

and she's kind of like Lucas in that her electric smash hitboxes becomes huge and long lasting with the help of those tendrils and stuff.

Shift · Sep 22, 2010

Asdioh said:
wow I just checked, both their airdodges are awful O_o it's not something I've noticed before, but they like, do an extra twirl after the invincibility is gone and they can't do anything...
Fox's airdodge is top tier. :D

And because of those bad air dodges, uair with Kirby will destroy her if she's above him. Being in the air against Kirby is probably the biggest worst case scenario next to being overwhelmed by his offensive capabilities.

Asdioh · Sep 22, 2010

Aye. Isn't Zelda's Nair pretty good..?
Peach doesn't get destroyed as badly because her aerials are more reliable, and she won't be airdodging that much anyway.

Shift · Sep 22, 2010

Asdioh said:
Aye. Isn't Zelda's Nair pretty good..?
Peach doesn't get destroyed as badly because her aerials are more reliable, and she won't be airdodging that much anyway.

I'm about 95% sure that Kirby's bair, like the majority of moves it goes through, will go through Zelda's nair.

Kewkky · Sep 23, 2010

Asdioh said:
Aye. Isn't Zelda's Nair pretty good..?
Peach doesn't get destroyed as badly because her aerials are more reliable, and she won't be airdodging that much anyway.

It's only good if you're right next to her and are a character with stubby attacks and no disjoints... If not, then pretty much everything you throw out will hit her hard. If she's gonna land while nairing, we either shieldgrab her for that or just fsmash her to hell. If she's nairing us while we're approaching from the air, we bair her which is what we should be doing anyway.

Sage JoWii · Sep 23, 2010

I feel like stabbing through a very nice painting when I hear that Delfino is one of Kirby's best CPs (not because it isn't a good Kirby CP, but it's not even top 3 in CP choices). I wanna burn a whole museum of fine art down when I hear ratios, much less 80/20 ratios that don't involve characters w/ infinites.

Strike PS1, CS, FD

Aim for Lylat or BF. While BF is Zelda's best it don't mean squat against Kirby.

CP Lylat, BF or RC.

Shift · Sep 23, 2010

JoWiiCIDE said:
I feel like stabbing through a very nice painting when I hear that Delfino is one of Kirby's best CPs (not because it isn't a good Kirby CP, but it's not even top 3 in CP choices). I wanna burn a whole museum of fine art down when I hear ratios, much less 80/20 ratios that don't involve characters w/ infinites.

Strike PS1, CS, FD

Aim for Lylat or BF. While BF is Zelda's best it don't mean squat against Kirby.

CP Lylat, BF or RC.

I don't know. Though I am a fairly new Kirby main for the 3rd week, I'm being taught by

ChuDat

with help by

TKO

. I was told by him that Delfino is a very good and solid CP for Kirby. He has the skill and results to prove it.

Though everyone is entitled to their opinion!

Sage JoWii · Sep 23, 2010

If you read my post I didn't say it was bad, I just said it wasn't in the top 3 best for Kirby CPs imo. Ps1 is easily the best Kirby stage because it's the best CP option in a lot of MUs, (the stage gimmicks including the jab infinite on the rock transformation, suicide throw and stage spike throw under the windmill, assist-gimp ledges, etc.), and it's terrain changes benefitting Kirby against ICs, projectile camping, etc.. Under that probably BF and tying for third (RC, JJ, Pictochat and probably Delfino). With that said I adjust my statement to 'It's barely tied for being in the top 3 at third place with three others'.

Nice name drops btw, and while Chudat has the skills and results to prove it, it's because he's Chudat! Chudat's skills far output what Kirby, alone, can output. This of course is irrelevant since I didn't even say it wasn't a good CP.

Tiersie · Sep 23, 2010

Since when is Battlefield anywhere near a good kirby stage. Who do we CP there effectively? I personally am not a big fan of BF.

I'd seriously say the Brinstar is Kirby's best overall CP. It does good against soo many characters and the blastzones are godly. Not to mention sharking and camping possibilities and extended Fsmash on a couple of spots. JJ, RC and picto are banned in Europe and ps1 is probably second best CP and best neutral by far.

Sage JoWii · Sep 23, 2010

European thinking says Brinstar is his best CP??? Tiersie, you're silly. The blastzones on Brinstar work against Kirby as much as they work for him, lava stops gimps half the time, in MUs w/ DK, Lucas, ROB, etc. Kirby is at a disadvantage by going to Brinstar, and did you say 'camping possibilities'? Lolololollllololoololol.

BF doesn't harm Kirby, we have the spit>UAir stage spike, platforms assist against campy characters and especially in this MU when yuo need to approach it allows for more variety, decent blastzones, and platforms can protect you from overhead attacks and SHing (because they can accidentally SH onto a platform). It's a CP in a handful, maybe more, MUs because it's solid w/ a gimmick and platforms. I'd say that it's probably a bit better than Delfino (which in my earlier post is what I said) because Delfino is good for D3, water spikers, MK, Oli, etc. before it's good for Kirby.

Shift · Sep 23, 2010

Tiersie said:
Since when is Battlefield anywhere near a good kirby stage. Who do we CP there effectively? I personally am not a big fan of BF.

I'd seriously say the Brinstar is Kirby's best overall CP. It does good against soo many characters and the blastzones are godly. Not to mention sharking and camping possibilities and extended Fsmash on a couple of spots. JJ, RC and picto are banned in Europe and ps1 is probably second best CP and best neutral by far.

Brinstar is THE WORST! It does not do well against many characters. You can't rack up damage as much as you can quickly on the other stages and you'll get destroyed. The extended fsmash in certain spots is nice but it's definately not a game changer. PS1 is a very good CP but best neutral? I don't know, I'd have to say SV is the best neutral for Kirby.

Brinstar... European Kirby's are crazy.

Tiersie · Sep 23, 2010

I apologize, I should have elaborated on camping possibilities. Both a Dthrow and 2 dairs wil break the cilinders, so yes; camping possibilities.

Also a dthrow on the cilinders can result is a grab cancel spike, resulting is some crazy satisfying gimps.

Sage JoWii · Sep 23, 2010

>_> Tiersie, just because you can run to the other side of the stage and stand there doesn't mean you have camping possibilities.

@ Shift.- Ps1 is by far his best neutral. You're putting Kirby on a flat stage with a lackluster moving platform and nothing else and you wanna say that's his best neutral?

Tiersie · Sep 23, 2010

Ohwell, I would suggest trying it out sometimes, I remember another kirby also liking the stage, so it's not just crazy Europe talking

.

I'm not the best at selling stages =P

Kewkky · Sep 23, 2010

Meh, I don't like Brinstar much... Dut I HAVE done some extremely sexy gimps due to the cylinders breaking from a dthrow. Dthrow > dair > footstool = death for your opponent! I even footstooled Ling's DDD as he got hit by the acid, and for some strange reason, he fell through it without taking damage towards his doom while I got burned and knocked back.

Still, BF is my choice for this MU (as well as almost every other MU).

Lord Viper · Sep 23, 2010

I'm guessing there's not much to discuss with Zelda except stages, lol. Best stage for Kirby to take her is Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, and Halberd, IMO. I don't know much about her worst stages other than the two I mention earlier. When striking a stage, always strike a stage with platforms, (mostly Battlefield and Yoshi's Island), Final Destination is the best stage to play Zelda in match one. As some may say, even if you pick her best stages, the match up is only going to change so little, except for Luigi's Mansion and maybe Brinstar, (not sure). Over all, this match up plays a little easier since Zelda has limited aggressive options. Of course don't play the same when Zelda turns into Sheik. XD ★

Sage JoWii · Sep 23, 2010

Have I ever said I <3 Viper?

Cuz I do, he's like...a little stage guru.

Asdioh · Sep 24, 2010

Kewkky said:
I even footstooled Ling's DDD as he got hit by the acid, and for some strange reason, he fell through it without taking damage towards his doom while I got burned and knocked back.

I've had this happen before as well. I think I have a replay..

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