Matchup Discussion: Snake

Topics to Discuss

• How do we win?
• What do we watch out for?
• Stages to BAN/CP?
• Tips/Tricks when fighting this character?
• Videos?
• MU classification?

he sucks in the air

we rock in the air

**** yeah

Hahah, that is if you can't through his wall of f-tilts, Gernades, Pivot Grabs, Dacus'.

Ugh, this is my worst match-up followed by Dedede.

If they don't hold the 'nades, I just throw them back, if they do hold them, I try to stop the momentum with FLUDD.

His DACUS and F-Tilts are Mario's biggest threats. IMO So I just try to spam fireballs and b-airs [when he gets too close]. IIRC, cape can reflect the USmash missles, but I usually try to avoid being near it in the first place so I'm not sure.

Fireballs detonate his DSmash mine, so just fire at them to make your life easier.

don't really find ftilt that much of a threat perhaps utilt but mario has the mobility to dance around that too, i find dacus and his grenades the most threat, dacus mostly to regain space and get away out of tight situations and grenades mostly because he has so manyy options

just don't attack snake when hes correctly set up on the field (grenades, c4s, mines etc)

D-airD-airD-airD-airD-airD-airD-airD-airD-airD-air.

Did I mention D-air?

The thing about Snake that breaks him is his weight. If he didn't live so ******* long this would be an even matchup. Mario has the tools to go pound for pound with Snake, but unfortunately that isn't enough. You've got to hit Snake about twice as much he hits you in order to remain "even" with him.

POOM, POW! 21% baby!

$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$ said:

Fireball approach of course, Mario and Snake seems to be even in camping but Snake does better b/c he can jab our fireballs and put it out of its misery. Snake's DACUS is predictable, his DACUS is not a threat to me, his ftilts, utilts, and his DI is the threat. Once he does his up smash, we can cape it so it can hit him instead of us. Our fireballs **** his nades, pro-"ish". Bair for sexy azz spacing, dont get grabbed, juggle his azz, u got that, and win. Game, Set, and Match. If Snake tries to set up his shiz, fireball dat h** * chews on bubble gum*

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I would never approach Snake. Approaching him and possibly getting punished for 21% or a really easy tech chase is a bad idea. I would camp his ***. Mario outcamps Snake because Mario's fireballs have much better rate of fire than Snake's nades. I use to hate playing against Snake until I decided to hardcore camp him. Against Snake, the best thing to do is get him in the air and keep him there. His air game is terrible and it's how top players beat Snake.

Calebyte said:

The thing about Snake that breaks him is his weight. If he didn't live so ******* long this would be an even matchup. Mario has the tools to go pound for pound with Snake, but unfortunately that isn't enough. You've got to hit Snake about twice as much he hits you in order to remain "even" with him.

POOM, POW! 21% baby!

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That and his ridiculous damage output. Ftilt for 21% and Utilt efficiently killing at 100ish both with stupidly large hitboxes.

Yea...Snake is a weird match-up . 21% for f-tilt, what were the developers thinking O_O.

Cape Jumping outranges his F-tilt if spaced correctly.

Isn't his Utilt as fast as ours is?

Stupid character is stupid...

The way I see it, it's just a spacing game vs Snake until you can get him into the air. Utilize Ftilt, cape, fireballs and Bair (Fsmash if ur ballz hang that low) until you land a grab, Utilt or Usmash to get him in the air. Then combo him till the point where you can KO/gimp him.

/match-up.

If only cape worked against his ridiculous ^B. IF ONLY. Really bad match-up, but I think it's actually kind of fun and not really impossible, depending on the Snake. Juggling him with bair and uair helps rack up damage quickly, same with well spaced fireballs and jabs. Being ultra defensive is a must against Snake, regardless of the character you play. You won't be hitting a lot of sweetspotted fsmashes against a good Snake, but if you do, he dies rather early for such a brokenly heavy character. Also, fair spike is a viable option in some situations, and it's just too epic.

also u can footstool or fludd or spike him out of snakes who use the c4 who try to regain their upb


its fun =D

What I dislike about him is how fast he can kill Mario with his Utit,, jeez why so much knockback and hitbox........

Just try to DI it as best as you can. On the plus side, with good DI, his ftilt shouldn't kill mario THAT early...maybe 150% ish unless you're right at the edge when he hits you.

personally, I wouldn't risk caping snake's tilts just because of how disjointed they are. I'd just try to avoid the hit.

stutter stepped fsmash should outrange Ftilt, but be careful since Mario's does extend his hurtbox a bit before it comes out.

Cape Jumping F-tilt is pretty legit. U-tilt not so much. The range on it is just ridiculous.

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned using D-air to pop Snake in the air, where the situation is favorable for Mario. This can be done with just fireballing and shield pressure.

HeroMystic said:

Cape Jumping F-tilt is pretty legit. U-tilt not so much. The range on it is just ridiculous.

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned using D-air to pop Snake in the air, where the situation is favorable for Mario. This can be done with just fireballing and shield pressure.

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To add onto this, Snake literally can't do much about this once you're on him. He has to stop you from getting ontop of him BEFORE you get there, or it's a free combo/shield pressure

ftilt is mad gay, i can't do anything to approach him cuz it out ranges anything I have

JuxtaposeX said:

ftilt is mad gay, i can't do anything to approach him cuz it out ranges anything I have

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Cape Jumping outranges F-tilt.

Kay, what exactly is Cape jumping?

Matador said:

Isn't his Utilt as fast as ours is?

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Frame 6 startup, total hitbox duration about 8 frames, ends on frame 38. Mario's U-tilt is 5 frame startup, 7 frame hitbox duration, ends on frame 29.

Stupid character is stupid...

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Pretty much.

I love this matchup when I'm on my game. In top level play, it really shouldn't be any worse than 6/4 Snake. As stupid as Snake's options are, your poke game is legitimately better than his just because of his lack of any real mobility.

Your options against Snake are very straightforward. Space, and grab. Grab and F-throw to interrupt grenade camping. Space and juggle when he's not using grenades. And always keep an eye on where he lays explosives. They honestly shouldn't hit you, but a mistake against them might cost you a stock if you aren't careful.

D-air is **** in this matchup especially on platformed stages. It juggles the hell out of Snake like a pro, especially if he airdodges or shields idly on a platform (SH D-air under BF side platforms, fullhop D-air under the top platform, strategy works about as well on Brinstar and Halberd). If he B-airs...things are a little more complicated, but shielding and Up-smash beats that. Snake's N-air can be punished on hit with SDI. D-air same story. Just keep in mind on the ground you have to SDI sideways against D-air.

Depending on spacing, you can D-smash (or F-tilt, F-tilt has more range) out of shield against Snake's F-tilt 2. Shieldgrabbing F-tilt 1 is great if you get close or powershield it. Most smart Snake players will generally only hit you with F-tilt 1 if you're shielding, and if you have balls, you can try do something like B-air out of shield before he's able to shield, but keep in mind that will generally lose to F-tilt 2.

Edgetrapping is really good in this matchup. Snake really doesn't have any good ledge options that beat shield. If he ledge attacks, free Smash. Ledge jump, you can U-air him on reaction. Ledgestand, you can grab, and N-air also beats that (also beats ledge attack when spaced correctly). Ledgeroll is the tricky one to cover, but do keep in mind that your reverse F-smash has a lot of range. Getting up from the ledge against Snake on the other hand is also really difficult once your damage exceeds 100%. You can ledgestall better than Snake, but he has most of your getup options covered with his tilts alone. If you can, landing on stage for recovery is usually favorable over grabbing the ledge.

If you can read Snake's landing really well, he should be dying at around 130% to a charged Up-smash (this is much easier to do on FD and Smashville). If you fail to kill him with U-smash, then generally I would ask you if your D-smash is fresh. Uncharged D-smash is a good KO option at around 150%, about the same as uncharged U-smash. If none of those options kill and he ends up surviving to 190%...then kill him with fresh B-throw. Oh and if you bait his F-tilt or U-tilt with a charged F-smash, he can die anywhere from like 95-110%, depending on stage position and DI.

Speaking on n-air from reading A2ZOMG's post, what way do you SDI out of it? I've tried going left, and right, but I've always been hit none the less .

left and up if hes doing the "vacumn " thinggy

right and away if hes getingg u with the tip of the legs

SDI upwards and towards him when he N-airs. Bonus points if this gets you behind him for a B-air, but generally you should be able to N-air or U-air Snake after getting above him.

JuxtaposeX said:

Kay, what exactly is Cape jumping?

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Simply, Jump and Cape at the same time. You'll most likely need a jump button. I use Y for my jump and X for specials, so it's easy.

It doesn't look like much at first, but using Cape Jump to intercept attacks can make really good openings.

^What this guy says 9001 times

Setting X to specials is the best thing ever.

i stick with the b button for my specials and have X as jump

HeroMystic said:

Simply, Jump and Cape at the same time. You'll most likely need a jump button. I use Y for my jump and X for specials, so it's easy.

It doesn't look like much at first, but using Cape Jump to intercept attacks can make really good openings.

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vid or didnt happen

to lazy to turn on my wii to actually test this


lool

hippiedude92 said:

vid or didnt happen

to lazy to turn on my wii to actually test this


lool

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA7RZjMbgrc (0:25)

Vid is really old and the marth was pretty bad, but should give you a decent idea on how it works. Difference here is Marth's F-air beats Cape Jump, but Snake's F-tilt doesn't.

do you have to do it BEFORE they attack? or the moment they attack? does it clank? because i know ive been doing this for quite a while esp followup with a spike or something but yea i get what ya mean

I thought EVERYONE cape jumped already...I guess that's only MD/VA Marios?

You can do it before OR the moment they attack, cape beats and outranges Snake's Ftilt so he's turned around anyways. You're also hovering above him, so if you catch his as he's doing it, you can punish him for completing the entire Ftilt animation with a fastfalled Uair or something.

If you hit his shield and airdodge backward, inexperienced Snakes WILL go for the shieldgrab on reaction. You're hovering too high above them and too far away from them to BE grabbed, so you'll be in position to punish.

Ooh lawl

I didn't know they had a name for it lolll

Eh, I've been doing it as shenanigans a long time ago, didn't know they had a name for it either... Or that it was an "AT"

Have you guys been fastfalling your dairs? You can auto-cancel it if timed right.


EDIT: Almost any of Mario's melee attacks true combo in up-b. Dair --> Up B = ****.
Fair --> Up B = ****.
Hititng Snake with the last hit of dair can combo into any aerial attack, lmao, even at sort've high percents.

Also, kind of unrelated, but turning around after the first hit of up b can gimp alright.

So what your saying is since x is closer to the b button its a better option....

I can't test crap. I can't play my wii.... its been a while

hippiedude92 said:

Ooh lawl

I didn't know they had a name for it lolll

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JuxtaposeX said:

Eh, I've been doing it as shenanigans a long time ago, didn't know they had a name for it either... Or that it was an "AT"

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It's not an AT either (just a technique), but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't useful.

Anything else to add here? I'm gonna start adding these to the MU Index soon, but I don't want to do so prematurely.

Do someone from the bottom/mid tier next, then maybe we can actually have discussions instead of "Mario gets *****, knextdiscussionplz"

Maybe like Fox, Wolf, or Lucas...