Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

I think DJC egg lay is a big one.

Dash attack under Marth's short hops.

Spam eggs to bait him into approaching you.

DD dash grab.

Those are probably most of the notable tactics, at least that I know of.

Never. Vman will die

I played a lot of Yoshi friendlies vs some good players at Noob 3.

Sometimes I hold my own and sometimes I get *****. My biggest problem is approaching. Yoshi doesn't have any good approaches.

Run up -> shield -> drop shield -> run up -> shield. Etc., etc.

Yeah. Yoshi's approach sucks.

dont approach lol

just stay in the zone that makes people uncomfortable

who did you play sheer?

and leffen where's that MM with zgetto lol

Mind Trick said:

dont approach lol

just stay in the zone that makes people uncomfortable

who did you play sheer?

and leffen where's that MM with zgetto lol

Click to expand...

Didnt do it... Beat him in dubs so he was deemed unworhy.
Nah but I barely slept at all so when I played i did mostly falco.




Was also suposed to moneymatch fuzzyness but he didnt wanna do one after I ***** him in pools

I did win all moneymatches I did though, ( ~5+ vs fox and falco mains ) not dropping a single game 2-4 stocking most games ;D
Didnt take money from people from people who didnt make bracket lol.
( i have plenty of money and got free entrance to tournament after winning dreamhack )


Yoshi is sooo good! ;D I've only played him a short while but Im starting to think hes top mid/high tier honestly ( in PAL )... It feels unbelieveable but considering he goes he wins vs sheik/ puff and going even vs everyone else cept falco.


Ps. Egglay SUCKS vs people who have experience...totally unuseable

leffen said:

Ps. Egglay SUCKS vs people who have experience...totally unuseable

Click to expand...

I beg to differ. Works just fine on me and Taj. I hate that move lol

Egg lay is awesome. Free damage and better positioning? Yes please. The ability to disrupt their pacing? Yes please.

Sometimes I swear low tier mains can't even play their own character. LOL.

Maybe you guys are just still clueless about how to play against Yoshi. "LOL."

"I like playing yoshi, but sometimes I think that the other yoshi mains don't see him the way I do."
Sums up a good amount of yoshi players' mind sets at one point or another, including myself. :/ :/

That being said, I feel like egglay "SUCKS" In some matches and has legitimate uses in other matchups.
Shall I try to elaborate, or do they go without saying?

i think you should elaborate because i think egglay is super under appreciated.

Egglay is a godsend in some matchups.

Egglay = Medium-high risk - slim to none reward.

• First flaw: Egg lay gives your opponent ~20 frames of invisibility when they break out.
  [*]Second flaw: You do half damage while staling your moves which means eggs, nairs and uair are less useful than you may think.
  [*]Third flaw: Your opponent gains twice the aerial mobility - starting at full speed while yoshi is still lagging. He can also fast fall whenever he wants to.
  [*]Fourth flaw: It is slow, and has a horrible hitbox.
  [*]Fifth flaw: Your opponent. Does. Not. Lag.

What this boils down to- there are always better options. always. Like any moves it has uses because people don't expect it, but thats about it. '
Since you dont lag after breaking out of the egg, you can just hold down and mash R and get a perfect waveland everytime and still have extra invisibility frames after you stop lagging. Did I mention that they dont even suffer hitstun while you don't suffer from hitlag when they are in the egg but you still do?

It isnt a godsend in ANY matchup. If you think so, then you are playing yoshi wrong, and your opponents suck at adapting to yoshi.

Lets take a matchup most believe it's good in- peach.
First of, there is NO WAY you can ever hit during her float if she isnt absolutely ****tarded.
it has a so small hitbox - adding peach float hitboxes it even worse. You basically have to be a entire yoshi ABOVE him before you start the move if you wanna hit.

Anyway, lets say you hit with it. Peach flies so high while being able to travel wherever she wants- she can go 3/4 of FD before she even hits the ground- without yoshi not being anywhere close to catch up with her. Even at 100%+ you can mash out with ease before yoshi gets close. So you are in disadvantage, not peach. Peach can start floating anytime she wants to. If you touch her shield you are ****ed up.

Add this to egg lay only dealing SIX percent on peach and you have a horrible move.

Do I even need to go into marth? Free tipper if you miss, counter, up b when you are djcing, wavedash.
Spacies? Alright I'll admit you can use it as a gimp since bad players hit fastfall by accident, but anywhere else its more or less useless. They can Side b, shine, perfect shffl during invisibility and just jump away
Oh and if you ever try to **** with falco onstage then you deserve to die.


TLDR: Egg lay deals no damage, your opponent doesn't lag and gets invicibility. And it has a horrible hitbox.

What do you mean by "your opponent does not lag?" You mean they have no lag after they break out of the egg?

^added a ****load, gonna link to that post everytime a idiot thinks egg lay is a legit move.


and no, he has zero frames of lag.
I kinda forgot to mention how to break out perfectly- but honestly, if you cant figure that out then you dont deserve to win lol, just can just spam and it will still work everytime.

Leffen:
I shall apologize about my incompetence, but there's really no need to get irritated (if so). I'm sure it might get somewhat annoying to have to repeatedly explain your points and thoughts of Egglay, but surely it will all work out in the end. I'm not saying that you're overreacting. Please just try to keep a cool head If things start to bother you (or anyone else for that matter).

Really though... I wish I had a response supported with evidence to possibly shed some light into egglay's uses. If they exist, that is.
Unfortunately, I'm probably the worst person to try to pull it off.

So... I guess you win for now.
Maybe someone with credibility, long time experience, and possibly some video evidence can try their hand in proving Egglay's validity in competitive play.

*** On a side not, although I've never played PAL version, Is it possible for some of the frame data and mechanics of yoshi's neutral B to be different in NTSC?

Seriously thought, I love egglay and I still can't see your viewpoint.

Man, Im not angry or irritated. It's the internet ;D
Tbh im annoyed at worst, that people still cant figure out how to fight egg lay and that people are making dumb assumptions cause of it. And I dont wanna win, i love yoshi mains and I just dont want them to develop bad habits.


Note: the frame data is identical, i've played ntsc. The only change is that some are a bit heavier / lighter so the egg lay could deal more % ( 0.5 at best ) to some characters.


Really though, the more I look at v3ctorman or yours videos the more I see how your STILL not getting any out of egg lay, even though your opponents dont handle it properly. Watch v3ctorman vs axe, the latest set vs his falco and fox. What did he gain on the egg lays except "suprise"?

It has uses, just like mewtwos disable. Tbh, its exactly like mewtwos disable, only that egg lay gives them invisibility, control, half damage and no knockback and doesnt work oos. yeeaaaaaaaaaa.
People still love and use bowsers down b, and it works vs some people. But that doesnt mean it doesnt suck against players who can adapt.

another note: I still use egg lay from time to time cause most dont know how to fight it, and when they figure out they are usually predictable with it ( hence egg trick vs shiners -> dsmash ).
Maybe Im just playing a more developed yoshi than yours, or maybe your is more developed. God knows ( though development =/= improvment, common mistake ).


Upload more yoshi vids guyz

i would upload more/any but no one wants to play my yoshi.

Ask people to low tier money match you, then.

leffen said:

Upload more yoshi vids guyz

Click to expand...

I wish i could, but I'm limited on time, equipment, and opponents.
Perhaps i should take a weekend and priortize on it?

@Leffen - were all still waiting on you... You promised us videos of your Yoshi videos.. you didn't upload any.. then you promised some later, we still didn't get any... then you promised us after your B.E.A.S.T. tournament.. and were still waiting...

everyone's waiting patiently.. if you've awesome ideas (and I know you do) then show us, but you keep us waiting. People have seen my Yoshi.. over and over... (and hopefully they like it) but as you can tell.. Nogz, Mind Trick and the others do not post videos nearly as much as I do... you keep promising us you're gonna post some.. do it man

I promise.. I come through.. you can do the same.. we are all waiting..

Im not saying I doubt your words/wisdom/knowledge etc.... to me that "element of suprise" is at times enough momentum/time to adjust rethink to how you want to approach reapproach....

I've played some pretty elite players with Egglay, and sure it isn't "great" but it isn't as bad as your saying it is....IMO it's just all situational...that's just my opinion on it you know... No need for debate... its simply my opinion on it.. and i'm stickin with it...

whether you think I'm dumb, for liking it or I haven't played good players whatever the case is...I find its uses....No disrespect towards any players...or anybody... at all intended... just let's go.. let's do this

Leffen - if you promise us videos.. pull through.. and give us videos...it's not that nobody does/doesn't believe you or anything... but I dont think ANYBODY has seen ANY of your videos... give us some would ya? stop trollin us w/the wait..

at everyone else... leffen is indeed right.... WE all should post some more videos....I'm getting lonely posting Yoshi vids ><;

Do I need to do another Yoshi combo Video?!?!? (lol just kidding) XD

<3 you guys.. lets go! n_n

Leffen, Idk. I kinda think that if you feel that egg lay is THAT much of a terrible move, then you're not using it properly.

One very important fact is that it's an AERIAL GRAB. It's uses are similar to Bowser's forward B, except it has much less ending lag if you miss. Jumping away from your opponent, then doing a DJC egg lay towards them works wonders if you think they will block. Also, retreating egg lays seem really safe to me, and is a good option for spacing from what I've seen.

You keep mentioning that your opponent can punish you right after he breaks out. If your opponent punishes you, then that just means that you were too close after he broke out. After you land an egg lay, you can just do a DJC Uair or Nair on the egg for damage, then retreat. It's free damage, I don't see how this is a bad thing. Just don't stay so close to him after your get your egg lay -> aerial. Even if your opponent does a perfect waveland out of the egg, you should've retreated far enough to not get hit by anything he does.

Just get in your 1 hit after the egg lay, then retreat. Free damage. If you're getting punished for landing an egg lay, then maybe YOU'RE the one who's making the mistakes. I still don't think this is a bad move at all.

Poor leffen. Everyone seems to be against him.

we need to agree to disagree here lol (im on leffen's side though fyi ;D)

it's kinda personal preference

Whether a move is punishable after hitting with it isn't really personal preference. That's just kind of a fact.

Just sayin'.

(I know nothing about Yoshi and you shouldn't really listen to me.)

Wobbles said:

Whether a move is punishable after hitting with it isn't really personal preference. That's just kind of a fact.

Just sayin'.

(I know nothing about Yoshi and you shouldn't really listen to me.)

Click to expand...

wat

nah i mean if you feel it adds to your game

i feel personally if you hit it you give up all your pressure and allow them to position themselves again freely (youre gonna use it only when your in control)

i can see how others think it's a decent move, but it doesnt fit in my game (i tried enough of experimenting with it)

the only gimmick i use it for really is surprising fastfallers at the edge

alright, first of all: When your opponent shields, you are in advantage. He is in frame disadvantage, you can move freely and he is limited to what moves he can use.

So:
What does yoshi want when your opponent is in his shield?
Think fox: He wants a grab, nair and shine are both just means to keep him guessing, he can't get much from a shine unless he predicts it.
Falco? He wants a dair or a shine, catching his oos move while being safe. Grab is simply a means to force your opponent to do smth.

Yoshi? A Nair, ftilt, uair, bair or a smash attack. Basically catching his oos. Jab, eggs and grabs are to keep your opponent uncertain.
Egg lay does what? Remove all of your advantages of your opponent being on the defensive, remove his mobility issues, removing any limitations due to lag and oos and HE is in advantage due to the invincibility.

It's falcos grab, but without any good options like shine grab. It isnt fast, has a horrible hitbox, your opponent can choose to where he wants to go and hes in advantage and it doesnt have any follow ups and it deals less damage.
Oh and falcos is safe on spotdodge, roll and wins over all oos options in use with shinegrab.
Yet, people still dont use his grab often
Why?
Because you gain way less from a grab than his other options.

Egg lay is like his grab, only 500 times worse with no rewards whatsoever but OHHH, you can do it in the air! Which basically doesnt mean **** since your opponent is most likely to do his oos option when yoshi is in the air.

@Axe it's bad hitbox and low reward means its a bad spacing move. Bowser has no good shield pressure, his side b kills and his opponent is most likely to do his oos option when bowser is on the ground.

You can't ever "just sneak in a uair/nair"
First of, you have no jump if he punishes you ( HI FALCO ) , it deals ~4-7% while staling your best moves.
anyone with decent mashing skill can mash before yoshi gets anywhere near you, let alone get a aeirials the middle.

@ Chivalruse : Like I care? It's the internet...
Though it is funny that everyone values v3ctorman opinion the most while everyone more or less ignores mind tricks, which is the only yoshi who have actually achieved in a tournament.

v3ctorman: I have no videos because AJP's computer crashed ( twice ), and I have no way atm to upload videos though Im planning to get a dazzle...
And I don't think you're dumb, just annoyed at your egg lay useage.
Look at your latest set vs axe ( his fox and falco ). You got NOTHING out of any of the egg lays and got punished hard for using it.
Please show me a video of you using it well vs a person who knows about spamming R/L.


Im sorry for not uploading any videos, if you think my yoshi is really unlegit then ask ppl who were at beast or swedish players ( ppl who use swf are prob Nizro, Hack, UchihaJP, Paju or smth )

Anyone have any word/vids on Japanese Yoshis?
He's always been high tier there, probably due to Fumi mimiker/spam, but they've been so disconnected from the rest of the community. :/
So glad peeps are trying to pick up Yoshi now.
Picked him up myself for the first time in about 2 years yesterday. Fun stuff.
Keep it going!

PS: Every move in the game has a use. Some are just more useful.
Same can be said about characters. Yoshi has always be useful. :D
Obviously. haha

Call me crazy, but I still feel like egg lay isn't a bad move. I've seen it's uses thanks to Nogzor'z and Vman, and I have a pretty good amount of experience against Vman's Yoshi. I see how this move is useful, but since most of are saying this is a bad move, maybe I'm just blind =/

@Leffen - nah man your tight man.. I never said I didn't think you weren't legit or anything.. I'd never judge anyone on that...It's just a personal preference I suppose >< idk how to really explain it...

Also: people do NOT take my word over Mind Trick or any other player, well at least not that I can tell on... This thread is for ALL the Yoshi players and their thought/opinions on strats, etc.. the only thing I'm in on is the title..nothing more... otherwise I do my best to treat this thread and everyone with the utmost amount of same respect to each individual out there...

If anything right now.. I'm a "hyped" player at the moment... Many players haven't seen what Yoshi has been capable of since there is such rare footage... I mean my combo video "eggstinction" is like the newest Yoshi combo video since like 2007-2008? that's years... on top of that, the only credibility I have going for me with Yoshi right now, is how I guess you could say "fast/quick" I've learned/adapted him into my game....some people are even JUST NOW seeing the "parry"/combos I could go on and on... It also helps that with all this, I'm competing with some of the top players in my state/area, with a character some find to be "nonexistent" even taking games off of and AZ is a pretty darn competetive/top state..... Sure, like you've said I haven't placed with him in tourney, but of course I haven't.. I haven't played the dino nearly as long as you guys have... I'd hope I haven't placed.. ><; so it's not really "fair" to use that against me...but your statement is indeed true on that topic

All I can really do is try to supply you guys with the videos/make a combo video...idk what more I can really do... and sadly... I just dont make nearly enough money to attend tournaments...not without losing the roof/or at least putting my finances in jeopardy....I guess Im just S.O.L. I mean im tryin to show people what he can do.... so you can watch/critique/perhaps even learn a few things.... not boast about my Yoshi.... ..idk what to do anymore... I just seem to cause dilemma(s)..

NOTE:
If i'm "taking away respect" from any of the Yoshi players then i'll gladly "step down" from playing Yoshi if that's what's necessary. ..I've a decent Falco/Mewtwo/Samus so I could go that route if need be.. In no way, shape or form am I trying to "glorify" myself in any kind of manner at all... I'm simply trying to show people that Yoshi isn't a bad character... and it seems my positive results have gotten me disliked/hated.. idk what to call it.. I'm merely trying to entertain.. it's what I do. I make combo videos.. have fun etc...

Anyway sorry for all the drama.. this has caused.. I don't want people treating me any different than they do anybody else.....

leffens just a moron lol.

:/

/10chars

^serious note: Did I do it right?

V3ctorMan said:

@Leffen - nah man your tight man.. I never said I didn't think you weren't legit or anything.. I'd never judge anyone on that...It's just a personal preference I suppose >< idk how to really explain it...

Also: people do NOT take my word over Mind Trick or any other player, well at least not that I can tell on... This thread is for ALL the Yoshi players and their thought/opinions on strats, etc.. the only thing I'm in on is the title..nothing more... otherwise I do my best to treat this thread and everyone with the utmost amount of same respect to each individual out there...

If anything right now.. I'm a "hyped" player at the moment... Many players haven't seen what Yoshi has been capable of since there is such rare footage... I mean my combo video "eggstinction" is like the newest Yoshi combo video since like 2007-2008? that's years... on top of that, the only credibility I have going for me with Yoshi right now, is how I guess you could say "fast/quick" I've learned/adapted him into my game....some people are even JUST NOW seeing the "parry"/combos I could go on and on... It also helps that with all this, I'm competing with some of the top players in my state/area, with a character some find to be "nonexistent" even taking games off of and AZ is a pretty darn competetive/top state..... Sure, like you've said I haven't placed with him in tourney, but of course I haven't.. I haven't played the dino nearly as long as you guys have... I'd hope I haven't placed.. ><; so it's not really "fair" to use that against me...but your statement is indeed true on that topic

All I can really do is try to supply you guys with the videos/make a combo video...idk what more I can really do... and sadly... I just dont make nearly enough money to attend tournaments...not without losing the roof/or at least putting my finances in jeopardy....I guess Im just S.O.L. I mean im tryin to show people what he can do.... so you can watch/critique/perhaps even learn a few things.... not boast about my Yoshi.... ..idk what to do anymore... I just seem to cause dilemma(s)..

NOTE:
If i'm "taking away respect" from any of the Yoshi players then i'll gladly "step down" from playing Yoshi if that's what's necessary. ..I've a decent Falco/Mewtwo/Samus so I could go that route if need be.. In no way, shape or form am I trying to "glorify" myself in any kind of manner at all... I'm simply trying to show people that Yoshi isn't a bad character... and it seems my positive results have gotten me disliked/hated.. idk what to call it.. I'm merely trying to entertain.. it's what I do. I make combo videos.. have fun etc...

Anyway sorry for all the drama.. this has caused.. I don't want people treating me any different than they do anybody else.....

Click to expand...

Wow... just let me start off by saying I feel horrible for what I wrote now : (

Sorry, none of what i wrote was aimed at you, its not your fault at all. I was just more pointing out that some people are assuming that you are the only good yoshi player since fumi etc etc, it has nothing to do with how you acted...

The mind trick part was more a ******** way of saying that Mind trick is the only one who have actually had chance to use egg lay / other stuff at high level bracket matches... and that people shouldnt take it lightly. Sorry for that =/
( btw I have played yoshi for ~4 months and only occasionally so I havent played him for long either- but yeah, using that against you wasn't fair ).

Too bad about your financial situation... didn't know it was that bad ;( I really feel sorry for such kindhearted people like you who have it rough financially... money is a biatch =/ ( Nizro, a swedish CF player, has it even worse than you... not even enough money to eat 2/3 days :/ )
I really wish I could do more... we should start a V3ctorman to pound5 fund... Im up to donate

I didnt say you glorified or boasted about yourself.... if I implied it im even more sorry, you are a really cool guy and you arent cocky or arrogant at all... and I dont think better results would change that.

Also dont stop playing yoshi... you are in no way taking respect or any of the like from yoshi players... noone even knew of yoshi before you started playing ( myself kinda included tbh.., you are a great inspiration ).

Sorry for all of this, ill stop talking about egg lay or w/e now... Sorry for being a internet ******... (@rubyris, you're one to talk )

Yay for coming together. That's what we need.

It was all just a big misunderstanding (everything always is)



AKA unintential nonbeneficial mindgames.



Question: Why does a dash grab go right through people sometimes? o.O

Nogzor'z said:

:/

/10chars

^serious note: Did I do it right?

Click to expand...

That looks about right.

Thanks, lol. I never did understand what the /10chars thing meant until now.

Lol .

Vectorman is the beastliest yoshi I have ever seen.

Vectorman can I has your babies?

and please make it out to genesis 2 :D

I loooove yoshi

V3ctorman you're awesome, i wanna play your yoshi again. I wanna play, period lolll
And I wanna see leffen's yoshi D:

Yoshi is pretty lovable. Too bad I'm a scrub with him.

Zelda is easier, anyway.