The Terrible Tyrant of Dreamland-Dedede matchup discussion

Kuro~ · Feb 8, 2011

OK! Lets get this ball rollin. Any discussion relevant to mu will be discussed here ratios at the bottom of your post dont post a ratio w/o specific relevant info. k thx.

relevant being...
advantages/disadvantages of stages
cp's
ban's
bread n' butter moves
Things to watch out for
How to approach it
things to keep in mind
etc. etc.

:229:

Go!

Kuro~ · Feb 8, 2011

shoop da woop be bap boop lets get this next one one ;D

Maharba the Mystic · Feb 8, 2011

a bing bang kashwang derka derka ding dang lets talk about why our nair is the sole reason we got this mu 50:50 on the up close.

so back in cali there is a DDD by the name of count. he is very ****ing good so me and him would always get in friendlies as we were the best pit and DDD that went to tag monthlies. anyways i used to think it was in DDD favor. his grab range is ridiculous and on top of that is his cg and his 16% damage dealing back throw. his waddle dees can be annoying. he out ranges us especially with that ftilt of his. however despite all this we as pit have our own arsenal to fight back. (we have the technology! lol)

on bigger stages pit out camps ddd. in fact camping DDD is how you will win the damage war in the long run. however he can block arrows with waddle dees so be sure u aim every arrow to go around the little ****s. when DDD gets up close, honestly the best thing you can do is sh nair in an arc from one side of him to the other. because he is so fat 9/10 times it goes through his shield and sets him up to be grabbed and get combo-ed. we can cg DDD but im not explaining that as its in the cg thread. also our dthrow combos DDD pretty hard but if you are smart and quick he will use his dair. jab infinite and using AR near the edge works really well too. also since DDD is so fat it is usuall for him to live up to around 160% or more. now the only moves we have that actually kill before then are bair on the edge of the stage and dtilt spike. so if you punish him with fsmash throughout the game that is acceptable in this mu as u have plenty of time to refresh it by 165% (which is wat it consistently works at for me. however count has some nutty DI so idk about other DDDs). offstage we own as long as you are careful about his AMAZING bair and his slow, powerful fair. oh i forgot to mention stage spiking works really well on DDD. and don't forgot that EVERY up close endevor (well mix it up a little...) is sh nair in an arc over him. it just works

stage wise we only played at the neutrals so sry guys im useless talking other stages with ya.

Nitrix · Feb 8, 2011

Obvious things to watch out for:

- F-Tilt
- B-Air
- U-Tilt
- D-Throw / B-Throw

Pit just has to have a very defensive style against Dedede. Patience is important, Pit can camp him a bit so flat starters are nice.

Here is a match of Coney vs Earth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwsUWpZKfIg

Xcallion · Feb 8, 2011

(Mirror) Shield when he throws a waddledee/doo because you never know when a gordo is gonna pop out of nowhere and own you. I think that Inhale is worth a mention as well because we cant airdodge a FF D3cide while in WoI. recover under the stage if you can and if you cant watch out for the aforementioned move.

Krystedez · Feb 8, 2011

- DEDEDE is fat. Take advantage of that. (combos are easy)
- PIT chain grabs. Right back at'cha, Flabs! (a good start to an even better victory!)
- DEDEDE will be killed. Bair will leave your opponent grilled >.> (back air is easier to hit)
- PIT's arrows hurt. Leave him in the dirt. (arrow spam)
- DEDEDE can't fly. Follow him to the sky! (WoI Refresh)
- PIT will !@#$. On Dedede's head, I mean it! (planking/scrooging/being gay is super possible)

And that's all for my nursey rhyme. Tune in for stages next time!~

Xcallion · Feb 8, 2011

once you have 100+ damage you need to be careful about the SH arc nairs because D3 can U-tilt OoS for a quick kill if you space incorrectly

Luckay4Lyphe · Feb 8, 2011

DDD will try to get that utilt kill whenever he can. Expect it when you are trying to juggle him and fail, because he will FF airdogde to utilt.

The guy is fat so he has a fat shield. Quite frankly the only thing you should be hitting the guy's shield with is arrows from a SAFE distance imo. Sure full hop nairs may shield poke, but DDD can still shield grab it as he will try to do against anything you throw at him in his shield. He relies on his grabs almost as much as ICs guys and he has a bigger grab range. Look at earth's playstyle, after the cg, don't go for any unnecessary ground game. Angel ring is actually a useful move since he can't grab it (I think) so it's hard for him to punish.

Use angel ring and dash attack to cancel his airdodges to the ground. Use jab infinite to punish his spot dodges because DDD can spotdodge and still be in the dodging while he is vulnerable for a few frames (its weird the way he leans back in the z-direction) so long multi hit moves like jab infinite and angel ring work best.

DDD is good offstage chasing Pit so if you are knocked offstage fly under the stage if you can.

Roll behind him a lot because his is bad a punishing rolls unless he predicts them. If the DDD is really good at pivot grabbing, stop using this method.

The most important thing to do in this matchup is get free damage. DDD is fat so don't feel bad about giving him some %. Get the cg and spam arrows all day. Be sure to mix up your arrow game so he doesn't adapt and start to powershield constantly.

Random things to remember: You can refresh your moveset by jabbing waddle dees.
Gordo is reflectable. Don't land with an airdodge all the time and instead land with angel ring. He will randomly land on you with inhale which you can't spot dodge or run away from so angel ring is an amazing counter if you predict it as it will pull you more into him more more damage. If you can't react fast enough to best thing to do is roll behind him.

DewDaDash · Feb 9, 2011

If ddd knows how to shield grab pit perfectly then he will surely have the win. The mu in this is at the minimum 60-40 in ddd's favor if not higher.

Krystedez · Feb 9, 2011

...So if Dedede does what he does best, then it's 60-40 his favor. Well, while I respect your opinion, but I think you're underrating Pit. We have the advantage in the MU. At worst, it's even.

-Pit has a better projectile, easier to hit, and pelt Dedede with.
-Pit can chain grab Dedede without being frame perfect up to like 40~50 percent from 0, ending with fsmash I believe.
-Pit isn't very gimpable in this matchup.
-Pit's moves out-speed Dedede primarily, allowing for more free reign in the air. Dedede's bair is his best move, but can be knicked with our u-air or traded/broken by our fair. (unlike someone like Wario who is dead against this move really)
-Pit camps the freaking crap out of Dedede no problemo.
-We can challenge him efficiently off stage either with arrows or careful approaches to his front side. He is very susceptible to stage-spike gimps and edge-guarding in general.

The main things we watch out for are the same with IC's, only not as impactful because we dont lose a stock from a grab

We also can ledge-camp and plank Dedede just fine, but it's not required.

Maharba the Mystic · Feb 9, 2011

DewDaDash said:
If ddd knows how to shield grab pit perfectly then he will surely have the win. The mu in this is at the minimum 60-40 in ddd's favor if not higher.

please tell me you're trolling or something dude. that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard. there is no way in hell that it is anything harder than 50:50. seriously not only does pit go even with ddd on ALL 3 neutrals, he is far superior on counter picks (halberd, delphino, rainbow cruise, japes when its legal). the only real counter picks ddd has are ps1 and MAYB yoshi's brawl but DDD can't screw pit here nearly as hard as the rest of top tier.

DewDaDash · Feb 9, 2011

tl;dr. All i know is that I've never lost to a pit before nor has it ever given me any trouble. Even b4 I knew how to shield grab pit I beat them with ease. Now its just much easier. If any of you want mm me 20$ at cot5 because there's no way in hell pit has this mu.

Edit: and this isnt even me being cocky btw. Pit's mu in this, is just terrible at the least. To say otherwise is just... lol worthy.

Maharba the Mystic · Feb 9, 2011

well idk where cot5 is or when but if you come to whobo3 ill take u up on it or if esca is in good enough condition after he gets out the hospital im sure he probably would wanna take u up on that 2

and im sorry that you haven't played any good pits then too as i feel mis-repped. im not trying to be rude or anything it's just obvious since there are so few good pits anyways it's obvious you've never played a good one. and if you straight up own a good pit like u say then i will change my mind. but only if it's by like 50% or more cause if it is closer than that i think that displays an even/close to even match up. but i honestly feel it's 5050

edit: gotta say i love that .gif u got there! idk why but it's hilarious and awesome 2 me

DewDaDash · Feb 9, 2011

whobo3 is too expensive for me. cot5 will be in PA in april. The flight to dallas is like 300$ whereas cot5 is like 150$ not to mention entry fee to whobo is like 70$ or something.

Maharba the Mystic · Feb 9, 2011

sry i can't afford to go out of state as i literally just moved here saturday. anyways enough of our rambling please give laid out detail on your oppinion so that we can analyze this mu better. the marth discussion went so well i hope to see the same for this discussion

DewDaDash · Feb 9, 2011

I don't know specifically, I mean I haven't really played a pit in tourney for almost 2 years now. Though I played a pit in friendlies like last week or something. He's pretty good. He beat masky at one of our local campus tourneys. I pretty much 2-3stocked him consistently. The mu is basically just shield-grab-cg and edge-guard pretty much. You can power shield pits arrows for the most part so that doesn't do a whole lot camping wise. As for hanging on the cliff and getting a cheap kill, that never happens to me as I never have to approach pit to be put into that situation. Not to mention ddd's bair beats pit pretty well

Luckay4Lyphe · Feb 9, 2011

Doodootrash here obviously doesn't have good Pit experience. Get a better DDD in here like coney, kthx.

Fizzle_Boy · Feb 9, 2011

Krystedez said:
-Pit's moves out-speed Dedede primarily, allowing for more free reign in the air. Dedede's bair is his best move, but can be knicked with our u-air or traded/broken by our fair. (unlike someone like Wario who is dead against this move really)

Hahaha so true Krys. I don't like it when I'm somewhat high in the air and Pit just stands underneath me. D3's options at that point are two attacks that Pit can dodge by moving to the other side of him or fastfall airdodge which he can punish with Fsmash. Acutally, come to think of it, he can punish all three of those with Fsmash.

Krystedez · Feb 9, 2011

This probably hasn't been an established matchup yet, but that will change when better Pits start coming to large tournaments. I specifically will use Pit for the Dedede matchup, because it's so much better than Wario v Dedede, ew!!!

And guys, don't take a !@#$ on people who have an opinion about the matchup differing than your own. Let's keep it civil! (this includes you DewDa

)

DewDaDash said:
I don't know specifically, I mean I haven't really played a pit in tourney for almost 2 years now. Though I played a pit in friendlies like last week or something. He's pretty good. He beat masky at one of our local campus tourneys. I pretty much 2-3stocked him consistently. The mu is basically just shield-grab-cg and edge-guard pretty much. You can power shield pits arrows for the most part so that doesn't do a whole lot camping wise. As for hanging on the cliff and getting a cheap kill, that never happens to me as I never have to approach pit to be put into that situation. Not to mention ddd's bair beats pit pretty well

You should keep in mind that you ****** an unnamed Pit at a campus tournament in friendlies, whom did well against Masky, still doesn't amount to much. You have to take in account; did he know the MU against Wario? Does he know how to fight D3's? What is his style? WHO is he?

Shield-grab-cg or just cg, either way, it's still part of Dedede's bread and butter, and we can consistently out-camp and avoid the grab pretty well compared to other character. -Edgeguarding Pit with Dedede isn't that easy, even with the crazy bair, we can still swoop under it carefully or recover high up.

Everyone can power shield Pit's arrows. They can still be used to camp and are faster than a lot of Dedede's approaches including waddle throws.

Like I said about bair, we have good reach and are in a good position to beat out Dedede's SH->bair. It's annoying to time, but it's not hopeless, and it doesn't "beat" Pit XD Maybe the Pit you played.

DewDaDash · Feb 9, 2011

Luckay4Lyphe said:
Doodootrash here obviously doesn't have good Pit experience. Get a better DDD in here like coney, kthx.

Once your done riding coneys nuts, DooDooTrash will take your *** out for 20$ at cot5, kthx =]

And he really wasn't an unnamed pit, I knew the guy 2 years before back in our hometown. The tournament just happened to be on campus, and the matches werent friendlies that I referenced to, he took him out of the tourney. And although they were friendlies, if I MM'd him things wouldn't change really. I beat him in GF quite awhile back b4 i knew how to shield-cg. You might of heard Jssn, a pit player from Tallahassee tho i doubt it. But i mean theres been plenty of pit players throughout the years i've played besides him, spike,crazycuban,jssn,etc. I know none of these are top pit mains but unfortunately thats what pit mains have in FL to offer. But I've never seen any moves of pits that has given me any trouble for the most part.

@Krystedez, imo sonic/wario/pit all fall in the same area against ddd in terms of mu. I'm not sure but you could probably throw in peach in that group too, tho shes usually regarded as a bit better than that.

Xcallion · Feb 9, 2011

I'm not trying to side w/ DDD here but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMxh_W08j8o shows that even the best pits can have trouble with the MU.

Krystedez · Feb 9, 2011

Sure sure, DDD. I'm not bagging on your experience so much as your belief that everyone that thinks it's Pit's favor is unwarranted in their opinion. That's the only thing I think you should remember when discussing an atypical matchup like this.

I am under the impression that you don't know what a good Pit can do that knows the matchup well, because you two-stock one of the better Pit mains in FL. but you haven't played Ravyn, who IS Florida's best Pit I think (correct me if I'm wrong Ravyn). If you played him, that would be a good way for you to find out if you're correct in your standing.

I would money match you if you were around my area

Oh btw, Wario has troubles moreso than Pit because of:

-short range
-less reliable setups
-no keep-away game besides the bike tires (which are temporary) and his superior mobility
-grab-release problems

DewDaDash · Feb 9, 2011

I wanna say I did beat him but tbh I can't remember if I played ravyn's pit or not. If i did it was back in 09 and I don't remember him having a pit, just an mk. Either way that was way too long ago for it to be relevant to this discussion.

Edit: I never knew pit had a chaingrab on ddd. Thats interesting and might help pit out a bit though i dont think itll have the win at the end of the day.

Fizzle_Boy said:
Hahaha so true Krys. I don't like it when I'm somewhat high in the air and Pit just stands underneath me. D3's options at that point are two attacks that Pit can dodge by moving to the other side of him or fastfall airdodge which he can punish with Fsmash. Acutally, come to think of it, he can punish all three of those with Fsmash.

DDD has plenty of options when high up like that. the best probably being looking for an opening and reverse fast fall suck-in. b-air fastfall also works and against pit i would imagine d-air works pretty well. Theres also fastfall to uptilt if pit is at kill % and if all that doesn't work well enough then to get back safely probablly just fastfall buffer sheild and roll behind to get back safe, maybe that shield can lead to a cg too if ur lucky.

Maharba the Mystic · Feb 9, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cELz9P2CP1I

okay. here are the same players but oh wait. masashi dominates him this time. don't just post one sided vids. since u already posted one for the ddds i don't feel the need to post 2 vids but from now on everyone keep both sides of the arguement in mind

hey y don't u play ravyn? hes a florida pit. (not trying to shove u out there or anything ravyn but you r in florida right?)

Krystedez · Feb 9, 2011

Ravyn is relevant *nod nod* He still plays Pit. You probably haven't played him, or he hadn't been playing Pit that much during that time I know he has a good MK.

DewDaDash · Feb 9, 2011

i'm not sure if hes still active in smash or not. Not to mention he lives in miami, i live in gainesville. That's like a 5+ hr drive.

hmm after reading the past posts, ill take your opinions with a grain of salt. Though by all means I would like to see what makes this favor 50-50 as you say, because I just don't see it. But by all means I don't mind if you try to prove me wrong, just as I said b4, I just don't see it that way.

Maharba the Mystic · Feb 9, 2011

but if you win the mm it pays the gas. of course on the other hand if u don't u lose gas money and get pissed off cause u defended ur 60:40 ratio so hard. it's all in ur willingness to do so as so far u are THE ONLY person so far who thinks its 60:40 DDD. if u really wanna help u have yet to explain sufficient metagame. and if u can't y don't u get more DDD's in on this. there is no way we can base all of stuff off of just ur opinion. wat if i did the same thing in the DDD boards? you would get tired of just me and ask for more pits. so please until u can actually say that you play pits recently and regularly u are saying that u base ur experiance off of 09 matches. those are not even close to relevent. sry but we need better than wat ur giving us. it's not that ur a bad DDD or im a bad pit or watevs, we just need more. that is all. im done talkin in this mu thread until there is enough relevent posts to matter as this is wasting my time

DewDaDash · Feb 9, 2011

I wouldn't mind if you did this on the ddd boards, your entitled to your own opinion really. I could care less about what other ddds or pits think on the mu for that matter. All that really matters is how you personally feel on the mu. I can't really just travel 5 hrs to play ravyn. 1) Its not worth it 2) 20$ for gas? gas would cost at minimum 60$+ RT for that type of thing and to play him? I really doubt he'd even accept such a challenge rofl. If you want i could upload vids later on of me vs crazycuban or jssn. And im pretty sure y'all have heard of crazycuban if you've heard of ravyn.

Oh and I guess the reason i put it to 60:40 because honestly this is one of my best/fav mus. This is one of my most knowledgeable ones. I used to play this on a weekly-monthly basis with a crewmate but that was awhile ago but the knowledge is still there.

oh and krystedez, I do wanna play ya sometime. The vids from mlg were really good. You think u can make it to cot5? thats probablly the closest ud get to playing me.

Oh and all pit players should def. get these shoes at 1:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHTjaUHEjdw So fly XD

Krystedez · Feb 9, 2011

If I somehow got enough money to go, I'd go. But as of now, 200+ dollars for a round trip to Florida is a bit much. I'll keep it in mind though.

And that's fine if it's your opinion and best or favorite match up. No reason you can't have an opinion. It's just the minority. XD

Fizzle_Boy · Feb 9, 2011

DewDaDash said:
DDD has plenty of options when high up like that. the best probably being looking for an opening and reverse fast fall suck-in. b-air fastfall also works and against pit i would imagine d-air works pretty well. Theres also fastfall to uptilt if pit is at kill % and if all that doesn't work well enough then to get back safely probablly just fastfall buffer sheild and roll behind to get back safe, maybe that shield can lead to a cg too if ur lucky.

You just spelled out the options I was refering to. At that high slow fall Dair would be your only option with that attack...and it's kind of telegraphed because he can react to it. The other options (Bair, Inhale, FF to the ground) are usually rock paper scissors with Pit depending on whether or not he shields, but if he has the opportunity to switch to your other side there's a 50/50 chance you'll miss with Bair or Inhale which gives Pit a big advantage in that situation.

Edit: Krys please don't make me do this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMxh_W08j8o

DewDaDash · Feb 9, 2011

mmm its 150-200$ RT for me to pennsylvania from FL, not to FL. More convenient for you, though I'm not sure how far that is from IN

edit: huh thats still an 11hr drive for you apparently which is still very far XD

Xcallion · Feb 9, 2011

Fizzle_Boy said:
You just spelled out the options I was refering to. At that high slow fall Dair would be your only option with that attack...and it's kind of telegraphed because he can react to it. The other options (Bair, Inhale, FF to the ground) are usually rock paper scissors with Pit depending on whether or not he shields, but if he has the opportunity to switch to your other side there's a 50/50 chance you'll miss with Bair or Inhale which gives Pit a big advantage in that situation.

Edit: Krys please don't make me do this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMxh_W08j8o

I already gave the link to that vid earlier in the thread and maharba the mystic posted another vid that you should check out.

Fizzle_Boy · Feb 9, 2011

I know, I just didn't want to go back and quote the whole post.

Krystedez · Feb 9, 2011

lol do I give you the motivation Fizzle? <3

I just noticed, that video is older than Masashi's more recent accomplishments, by like, 8 months. Masashi seems to be in the positives against 9B overall. as for his Dedede it looks like they might be rivaling eachother toward the even bar, but I think Masashi may have overall became the better player

Fizzle, next time we meet in tourney, MM? Also, come to my tourney!!!!!

Oh btw, Dewda, I went to Texas for MLG (14 hours LOL). Florida is not that bad, but... I just dont think my dad would be up for it either way (Driving would suck for him, and flying would cost money I dont have)

We'll see what happens.

Lenus Altair · Feb 10, 2011

This Matchup is pretty even. Pit can Camp DDD hard, can out maneuver him in the air, but it susceptible to DDD up close where he is out ranged. Pit still has options up close although often the best one is just to stop being close. He can get away from DDD well enough.

While DDD chaingrab is an important factor of course, he can only do it to the ledge. Its only "infinite" to the edge which is stage/cg start position dependent. Also Pit doesn't mind being forced on the edge so much. DDD can spam his Bair offstage and that gives Pit some trouble, but again, we can out maneuver and punish and/or put him in the recover position. We take advantage of him more off stage then he does us. It goes back and forth. Both have some effective tools against each other and it comes down to reads for big advantages.

Honestly this matchup would be in OUR favor if DDD didn't have the chain grab or he would have next to no damage racking on Pit at all...

Xcallion · Feb 10, 2011

People probably say the same thing about Pit's arrows. "If only he didnt have those arrows. He would never rack damage on my (insert characer here)!"

Masky · Feb 10, 2011

..........

DewDaDash · Feb 10, 2011

there was a prize, it was an alienware shirt

but yeah i thought he beat ur wario, guess not xD. My efforts to legitimize the guy are ruined lol.

Nitrix · Feb 10, 2011

Angel Ring is good in this matchup, Dedede has trouble dealing with it since he is so fat. Plus it can be a nice counter when Dedede tries to walk and powershield up to Pit. Just Angel Ring him and let him realize that he can't grab through it

To me this matchup is 55:45 Pit. Dedede has the chaingrab but he is just a little too big...

Maharba the Mystic · Feb 10, 2011

sry dewdadash but it's COMPLETELY and totally ruined to be precise.

............

lack of legit+masky not wanting a crappy t-shirt=not a legit pit. and because he is not legit, for that reason, you must quit.... tryin to legitimize him

(ya im quotin hot rod lol)

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