Interplanetary Travel - General Stage Discussion

Capt. Olimar · Feb 7, 2011

Interplanetary Travel
General Stage Discussion

We're going to be starting up stage discussions again, but not in a specific order.

Here we're just going to get down to some hard casual stage discussion just to improve ourselves rather than filling a stage discussion quota.

Do:
- Feel free to talk about anything stage related.
- Give thoughts on certain stages (even something seemingly insignificant could be useful).
- Ask questions about counter-picking/banning and stage gimmicks, general stage mechanics, etc.

Don't:
- Please avoid leading the discussion toward stage legality.
- Please don't spam. This may be a bit more relaxed than a standard stage discussion thread, but that]doesn't mean that you should be +1ing in here.

Reference Material:

Pluck Percentages

Old Stage Discussion

DtJ Hilt · Feb 8, 2011

Glad to see this up! I'll probably be posting in here quite a bit, lol. My favorite topic.

Sky Pirate · Feb 8, 2011

All right. Couple of random things:

Thought/Question:I'm still trying to figure out if it's better to ban Yoshi's Island or Pictochat against Sonic.
Yoshi's Island doesn't provide a lot of room for him to run around, but it does make it easier for him to get back to the ledge.
Any thoughts?

Thought: Ban/Strike Yoshi's Island (Brawl) against Bowser.

Thought: I keep getting ***** on Castle Siege against Metaknight. The first part feels like it's too small or something, the second one he can run away, and the third part feels pretty evenish, but the slow pluck makes it harder to find time.
First part also feels REALLY small in doubles.

Denti · Feb 8, 2011

I agree with all of that SP.

As for what to ban against sonic, ban yi. He can work really well with the platform and can get to the ledge easier. Picto is safer for olimar because all you need to do is wait for sonic to leave the ledge then pressure him when he tries to land near the ledge.

DtJ Hilt · Feb 8, 2011

The difference between YI and Picto against Sonic is that there's more room to just avoid Sonic on Picto, while Yoshi's is really small. THe hazard help us alot more than they help him, and they, as well as the some of the general stage changes, limit sonic relatively well for us. They aren't anything drastic, but it's enough to keep it from being worse than Yoshi's for Olimar against Sonic.

I really, really like Castle Siege against Meta Knight. Specifically the first phase. Olimar doesn't a really large stage against Meta Knight, although size does help. The different stage hights and the slant help so much in the matchup, though, as well as the platforms. It limits MK's approach against Olimar really well. In my opinion it's the best of the three phases for us in this matchup. The second phase is okay, but oftentimes it just doesn't exist against a smart Meta Knight. Harass him with UpB or use the time to sort out your line, if nothing else. Third phase is okay. Not too bad, but the slow pluck is a bummer.

Denti · Feb 8, 2011

I remember in 09 when Olimars didn't use up B in the air. I WAS APART OF THE REVOLUTION!

Sky Pirate · Feb 8, 2011

Ah. I always thought that smaller stages were better against Sonic.
That way, he has less room to work with while trying to bait you into doing something laggy.

I'm probably wrong, though. I don't know much about the matchup.

DtJ Hilt · Feb 8, 2011

That's true. But when he has invincibility accessible to him, you want to be out of the way.

Dnyce · Feb 8, 2011

IMO, yoshis and picto aren't a huge issue. Like... think about it. It's super ****ing obvious, lmao. Sonic HAS to start (and slightly charge) spin thingy on the ledge, otherwise it doesn't work. So anytime you see Sonic on the edge just think "oh, the only thing I can do is toss a purple or jump... I shouldn't try to punish it with fsmash or grab." Move to the middle or away from Sonic and just wait for him to use it. Bonus points if he tries to sit there and charge it waiting for a mistake, throw Pikmin at him. Let them do latch damage or die so you can get Purples. Basically, unless there's like 5 seconds on the clock, you can benefit from it. Which leads nicely into my next point...

I personally much prefer to ban a stage where it's easy to time someone out. For instance, the king of timeout stages, pokemon stadium 1 has several transformations that seemingly force a stalemate and make you wait through its duration until you can do something again. Sure you can try to approach during these phases, but it's an obvious risk.

EDIT: this post is for Sonic specifically

Cook · Feb 8, 2011

If you're worried about Sonic camping wouldn't extra whites from Pictochat actually make it kind of a good stage?

DtJ Hilt · Feb 8, 2011

Picto doesn't give extra whites, actually. That was a mistake on my part. Also sonic doesn't really have a huge problem against whites, or pikmin toss for that matter.

Jane · Feb 8, 2011

yeah, i rather like the smallness of the first part of castle against metaknight. he can potentially controll you very nicely, but nothing a quick whistle -> nair cant fix. the first part is my favorite part.

the second part is fun too because i just feel really free there. i can't get cornered, trapped, and as far as spamming pikmin goes, its a wonderland.

then the third part is cool because the little hump near the middle can be utilized to our advantage (for throwing pikmin further, or grabbing deceivingly far). the slower pluck isnt much of an issue for me.

Sky Pirate · Feb 8, 2011

Hilt said:
That's true. But when he has invincibility accessible to him, you want to be out of the way.

I dunno, you can Dtilt him out of it.
I can't remember what-all is true on him after that, though.

Jab1 is. I could get Usmash to hit occasionally, but I doubt it's guaranteed.

BTW. Clinging to the rear of the boat on RC, you can cancel your UpB on the slope if it doesn't latch to the edge.
I'm trying to figure out how to best explain this, but you ledge-drop and UpB immediately while pushing toward the stage. The non-latch animation will come out and almost immediately end, allowing you to do whatever you want.
It feels faster and safer than Instant Return, but that's about the only ledge I know that you can do it on.

DtJ Hilt · Feb 9, 2011

Dtilting him out of it is in no way reliable. Most of the time you will lose the battle, as he has more options to mix it up and you're just relying on dtilt. He's also free to time it whenever, while you are limited to a reaction not only of when he releases the spin, but when he's close enough to land the dtilt, if he doesn't pop into the air.

I do agree with Fino, though. Stages where Sonic is able to just use the terrain or size of the stage to avoid Olimar and time him out is a problem. I still don't like Yoshi's Island, though, haha.

Dnyce · Feb 9, 2011

Yeah, if you've ever played sp33d or a similar sonic, apparently they can do some type of spin thing to bounce back and forth between those spots (which yoshi's island is just small enough to be able to do). There's room for punish, but it's small... that and we're too slow.
Purple Pikmin toss is a safe counter to his "invincible" spin dash. It doesn't beat it, more so just clashes with it. I still recommend simply jumping over it though. lol.

Jane · Feb 9, 2011

can we talk about pokemon stadium 2?

we're making it a legal cp in AZ finally so, i wanna see if i can have a little fun with it :D

Dabuz · Feb 9, 2011

im surprised no one mentioned simply...chasing a sonic to the edge so you can get a grab before the invincibility glitch kicks in

Dnyce · Feb 9, 2011

dabuz said:
im surprised no one mentioned simply...chasing a sonic to the edge so you can get a grab before the invincibility glitch kicks in

We're too slow

Sky Pirate · Feb 9, 2011

PS2 is weird.

Ground Phase is fun. You can make people uncomfortable on either side of the hump.

Flying Phase, you can kill people early with Uair but it's kind of hard to get back down when you jump. I usually try to Uthrow/Usmash and wait this phase out.

Ice Phase is for SLIDING USMASH, but Pikmin act like little dummies on the ice and can be kind of hard to manage. Pivot grabbing doesn't work.

Electric phase is actually kind of a pain in the *** when you get stuck on the ledge. Kinda good for camping the middle, though, but it's hard to keep control with such little room to work with.

Kirby has a number of gimmicks on the phases, so I wouldn't advise taking him here.
Pit can also be a big pain to deal with. Dunno about anyone else.

EDIT: Wait, don't take G&W here either. Eff that guy.

Denti · Feb 10, 2011

I think ps1 is our greatest starter. It gives room to run and platforms to work with and the windmill and rock transformation gives excelent pluck percentage. Also, since ps1's transformations can separate the battle for awhile, I always get a chance to filter my line to nearly all blues and a purple or two(and 1 white if they are at low percent) because i honestly think that's our best line choice. I believe it is our best line choice because blues aren't weak killers with smashes and every throw can kill along with the grab range and 14% health, I think that a purple or two is the best way to use them because too many purples robs the surprise of our side B flinch and our range is butchered and a white at low percent is always **** and leaves the opponent with nearly 30% or leaves them predictable.

Would anyone agree with me if I said I think ps1 is our best overall starter?

Dabuz · Feb 10, 2011

i see PS1 as our worst neutral. Odd layout of transformations ruins olimar's camping game and gives opponents too many ways to either get in, or stall us out until a better transformation comes. Its hard to land on solid ground in most transformations, i would go on with reasons why it might be our worst neutral...but im too lazy.

Denti · Feb 10, 2011

I see more adaptation with ps1 than a way for our opponents to get in. For example, on normal neutrals if Olimar is at a disadvantage in a situation there is no hope than to deal with it, you just have to fight at that disadvantage. With the transformations of ps1 it leaves more room to adapt to being at a disadvantage. For example again, if Olimar is fighting an opponent who has the adv in a MU, it's easier for them to put you at a disadvantage on other neutrals. For ps1, the changing of the stage allows for openings on Olimar's part, this is instead of possibly being put in a situation on a stage that will always be a disadvantage for Olimar in that round no matter what. So I believe that ps1 is better for our harder MUs because instead of thinking about being at a possible disadvantage with the transformations, you can use it to adapt to the transformation as put your opponent at a disadvantage because the transformations are so wacky that either of you could end up at a disadvantage rather than just you.
Other neutrals however are probably better for MUs we already have advantages in because we can keep our opponent out easier.

As for the camping part during the transformations I take that time to filter my line as best as I can. So instead of halting our pikmin toss camping game you can filter your line and get a better adv in the overall fight after the transformation is threw. I do however agree with you on the stalling issue, it is easier for them to time you out there than at any other neutral.

DtJ Hilt · Feb 10, 2011

Smashville is our worst neutral. It's the smallest (I think it's smaller than YI) and the platform does little for us, unless you're camping a Falco or Ice Climbers. That's not to say that it's bad for us, but if you were to rate all of the neutrals for Olimar, Smashville would get the worst score.

Denti · Feb 10, 2011

I agree with you there hilt. Sv isn't like "bad" for us it's just there are always better choices. I don't have any character I plan to take to sv.

DtJ Hilt · Feb 10, 2011

It was almost always my first strike, lol.

Jane · Feb 10, 2011

yeah mine too. cuz SV is like the most common stage people go to in game 1. so eliminating it right off the bat neggas is like "lolwut" and you got em right where you want em >;]

Dnyce · Feb 10, 2011

I used to not like SV... I still don't to some degree, but it's pretty good in those times where you might want to apply a different game plan (as Hilt noted). I think SV is a great stage for being aggro with Olimar... but there are some interesting things you can do with platform canceling that give Olimar a lot of creative (aggro) options.
Platform canceling may be situational, but when you know how to apply it in those situations, it can be game changing. A few of my favorite tactics are platform cancel into an upsmash, platform cancel into a pivot grab (good nado punisher), platform cancel fair (by doing the buffer fall through input - great bait against ICs), and jumping from the ledge (ledge drop double jump works too) into a platform cancel.

Dabuz · Feb 10, 2011

on the EC...its impossible to get a good olimar stage and not SV for the first round >_> Generally the platform gives olimar another recovery option, and since smart people strike FD against olimar, most matches become: go to SV or YI (orlylat if that is available).

BTW, ics (and in theory, falcos) that know how to platform cancel grab are ridiculous on SV

Sky Pirate · Feb 11, 2011

I have a hard time platform canceling without having my pikmin jump away for no reason.

Dnyce · Feb 11, 2011

CloverLeaf said:
I have a hard time platform canceling without having my pikmin jump away for no reason.

Platform cancel by holding the control stick down while jumping and releasing it to neutral. Should fix your problem.

Sky Pirate · Feb 11, 2011

Oh wow, that actually worked. Thank you.

Denti · Feb 11, 2011

What do you guys think about mk on fd? Would anyone call me crazy if I said I ban it against quite a few MKs? Once mk gets olimar off the ground it should nearly always be Olimar's stock because our air momentum is below average(not as good as MK's) and we are more floaty than most characters( we are worse than mk about fall speed) and we don't have priority (mk is full of air priority against olimar) and we have no range in the air to battle mk.. Someone plz change my mind on this because I feel stupid for thinking that mk beats olimar hard on fd lol

When AndyG played he always banned it against mk, if that means anything.

DtJ Hilt · Feb 11, 2011

I hate landing against any character with a lack of platform, meta knight included.

Denti · Feb 11, 2011

That's true for me too hilt and that's why I don't take people to FD often unless it's just a pure campfest, lol, toonlink. I <3 platforms and course adaptation

Dnyce · Feb 11, 2011

I have some mental block about playing Olimar on FD... like... I NEEED platforms to play Olimar.

One of the advantages of dual mains Oli/IC :3

Denti · Feb 11, 2011

I'm one of those people that think FD shouldn't be a starter, so I have the same mental block. ICs player upsets me loool. pockets pockets pockets!!!

Jiom · Feb 11, 2011

I personally love FD because I try to capitalize on punishing landings, I strongly dislike platforms to but you guys are right, you can't land with olimar without practice.

Sky Pirate · Feb 11, 2011

I like FD against MK, but that's just personal bias.
There's so much room that you aren't immediately at a ledge if you pull back a little.

Better option than SV, if anything.

DtJ Hilt · Feb 11, 2011

I feel the same way about FD being a starter, Denti. Unless you're using a nine stage starter list. Or seven.

Denti · Feb 11, 2011

Hilt said:
I feel the same way about FD being a starter, Denti. Unless you're using a nine stage starter list. Or seven.

Truth! I honestly like the 7 strikes the best. Also, do you guys even think brinstar should be legal?

Interplanetary Travel - General Stage Discussion

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