Smash DI Q&A Thread

i have a lot of questions to ask about smash DI, as i'm sure a lot of other people do, so i made this thread

basically just quote the questions people ask and respond to them.. and then if some very common/helpful ones are answered i'll edit them into the OP

my questions so far:

1. when you're on the floor and you get jab resetted (specifically by sheik), how do you smash DI so that the jab propels you into the air instead of forcing the get-up animation?

2. when fox waveshines characters such as captain falcon or link, can they escape through smash DI?

3. how does the c-stick affect smash DI? to my knowledge its like a lesser version of the control stick - it should be pointed in the same direction as the control stick, but it doesn't help as much (i could be wrong)

thanks

I've wondered so much about the waveshine thing also. I noticed when Armada played M2K at Apex, in the second match, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwpl6GKvTxg&feature=related, at about 2:06 he get's out of the waveshine... was that just a miracle? haha

^^ That was a phantom hit actually

Geist said:

^^ That was a phantom hit actually

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Ahhh I see, thanks. Hmm, then it was more on the miraculous side, huh?

Hax said:

2. when fox waveshines characters such as captain falcon or link, can they escape through smash DI?

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i wouldn't say escape, but you can make it a lot harder on the fox by smash DI'ing the shines away. just holding away while the shine hits will give you one frame of ASDI which can help a little bit, but mashing the stick away (usually in a quarter circle motion) will give you multiple frames of SDI on the shine which can sometimes make a big difference.

drills are another story, i think foxes are gonna learn to use the shortest drills possible, as the more hits we hit you with, the more chances you have to SDI and often dodge our shine completely

edit: the more i think about SDI the more i realize theres still stuff i don't fully understand, good thread

Thank you Lovage, you explain things very well, even a newer player like me can understand it haha

Hax said:

1. when you're on the floor and you get jab resetted (specifically by sheik), how do you smash DI so that the jab propels you into the air instead of forcing the get-up animation?

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Up, I think

Hax said:

3. how does the c-stick affect smash DI? to my knowledge its like a lesser version of the control stick - it should be pointed in the same direction as the control stick, but it doesn't help as much (i could be wrong)

thanks

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It technically doesn't... well, I'll just go ahead and elaborate.

There's smash DI and automatic smash DI. Smash DI happens when you time the SDI input with the hitlag, and ASDI happens during hitlag when you're already holding the direction to SDI. Both the control stick and the c-stick can ASDI, only the control stick can SDI. The c-stick outprioritizes the control stick for ASDI. That's why double stick DI works. You hold down on the c-stick to get the ASDI down, and you use the control stick to get regular DI.

However, something I don't know is if the c-stick's ASDI outprioritizes the control stick's SDI.

I think that a certain someone should subscribe to this thread.
Or make it his homepage.

Tee ay eye said:

However, something I don't know is if the c-stick's ASDI outprioritizes the control stick's SDI.

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what do you mean?

sdi occurs during the hitlag of a move, and asdi occurs the one frame after hitlag ends.

so if you're using both sticks optimally, you would SDI as much as you can with the control stick during the hitlag, hold a direction with c-stick to get your ASDI right after the hitlag, and hold a direction with the control stick to get your regular di/survival di

edit: this sounds complicated! but its' comforting to know that all three of those things happen on pretty much every attack.

1. you get hit by an attack

2. you react, and move your stick to your survival DI position during the hitlag, causing at least 1 frame of SDI, you can mash the stick in multiple directions to get extra frames of SDI to move you further

3. after the move ends, you get your frame of ASDI In the same direction you're survival DI'ing cuz you held the stick there.

4. you survival DI the move like normal

if you already had your DI set before you got hit (like you get stomp knee'd by falcon and have your DI set before the knee hits,) you won't get that 1 frame of SDI unless you move the stick more during the hitlag of the attack. this isn't a big deal, but it could save your life 1/10,000 times

is it SDI that helps with edge teching? whenever i go an edge tech i slam the stick (trying to SDI) into the stage because i hear that makes you closer to the wall, and thus makes it easier to tech against it.

what's the best way to do this? is ASDI enough to do this or is it worth it to use some quarter circle (japanese lol) DI?

pretty sure ASDI works for teching walls like that most of the time, don't hold me to that though. Really anytime you SDI a hit you will always ASDI on the first frame of hitstun as well since your analog stick will be pointed in the same direction.

Also this thread pretty much sums up everything DI related. It's old and a tad wordy, but it's an extremely good guide.

yeah sdi and asdi are of course really useful on the edge, they can assist your ledgetechs a lot and make certain moves that shoulda have been untechable cuz of their spacing, techable.

you can even use sdi to slide onto the stage after getting hit by the edge, the most common example being vs. falco's dair, a lot of times you can sdi the dair that woulda killed you and land safely on the stage.

also note that SDI moves you about twice as far as an ASDI, which is kinda minor but cool neway

Lovage said:

what do you mean?

sdi occurs during the hitlag of a move, and asdi occurs the one frame after hitlag ends.

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really?

didn't know that

The c-stick outprioritizes the control stick for SDI.

That's pretty much the extent of my knowledge, though.

I thought you can't use the C-stick for SDI.

Which imo would make it a lot easier if you could.

You cannot use the C-stick for SDI

C-stick will out-prioritize the Control stick for ASDI input

ASDI input is exactly half the length of SDI input

SDI input can occur on every frame of Higlag, but you must either reset the control stick, or input a 'new' direction to SDI on consecutive frames. See this post for more info about that: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12185478&postcount=2258

To escape jab resets, you're going to want to SDI the hit UP
This means that during the ~3 or 4 frames of the jab that you are in Hitlag, you need to hit UP
this will cause your character to rise higher from the hit, and not trigger the 'jab reset'

ASDI occurs on the frame directly AFTER hitlag
there is no overlapping of SDI and ASDI

The c-stick really serves no purpose in DI in general if you break it down frame by frame, because you can do everything you want to do with the control stick, the C-stick would only be used if you want to ASDI in a different direction than where you're SDI'ing and you aren't frame perfect in your inputs

I'm pretty sure about most of this, but I'm no magus

C-stick has absolutely nothing to do with SDI. It controls ASDI. The control stick controls SDI during hitlag and the direction you're holding 1 frame later determines the direction input for ASDI, unless you are also holding the c-stick, in that case, the direction you are holding the c-stick determines your ASDI (overrides control stick).

Edit: also, regarding multiple SDI inputs during hitlag, if you choose to rotate the control stick at all, you must cross certain points of rotation for additional inputs to register. These are located very close to the 4 cardinal directions (up down left right). So if you want to use the quarter circle method, say for ledge teching, you'd want to do something like start slightly below horizontal and rotate slightly farther than the upward position to get both inputs. Or you can wiggle the control stick back and forth across one of the cardinal directions to get multiple inputs in that direction.

1: You hit up on the dstick when sheik jabs you. I remember the magic number being 40%, I think that might be the first percent that you can either hold cstick up on to escape, or maybe it's the first possibility to SDI out at all.

2: SDI'ing the waveshine might be able to get you out of range for the followup shine, but it will pretty much never get you out of grab or usmash range. From what I understand, it's more useful to mix up the SDI in order to force them to preform their followup on reaction.

3: (other people have answered this better, here's what I know) holding the cstick will do asdi, (automatic sdi) so if you're at higher percents you can escape jab resets simply by holding the cstick up. Can also be used to mildly effect your positioning during small-hit combos like waveshining, but the effect is small.

hope i could help

I should mention that learning to quarter circle or half circle or in general rotate the analog stick for SDI makes SDI MUCH easier to do in the long run. You have more opportunities to input, and even the wrong SDI is usually better than no SDI at all.

So for SDI for jab resets, I almost always start at 2:00 rotate to past 9:00 (counterclock) or 10:00 rotate to past 3:00 (clockwise). This gives you a nice window of SDI. The only time I think tapping SDI is somewhat worth it is on Fox drills, but you can still achieve the same effect with circle SDI.

can you just ASDI a fox drill? like, since its a multi-hit move, do you get multiple frames of ASDI?

FoxLisk said:

can you just ASDI a fox drill? like, since its a multi-hit move, do you get multiple frames of ASDI?

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speaking strickly from experience, i'd say yes.

If there is hitlag, you will be able to ASDI

Version 1.0 NTSC

-Flame Cancel is possible
-you cannot DI/Smash DI hits that do less than 1% damage because they dont give hit lag


Version 1.1 NTSC

-Flame Cancel is possible
-you cannot DI/Smash DI hits that do less than 1% damage because they dont give hit lag
-specific differences between 1.0 and 1.1 have not been uncovered


Version 1.2 NTSC

-Flame Cancel is NOT possible
-you CAN DI/Smash DI hits that do less than 1% damage because they give hit lag
-Varios bugs removed (link superjump, ic freeze glitch, etc)

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I believe fox's drill falls into that category, I'm not certain though

Hax said:

1. when you're on the floor and you get jab resetted (specifically by sheik), how do you smash DI so that the jab propels you into the air instead of forcing the get-up animation?

2. when fox waveshines characters such as captain falcon or link, can they escape through smash DI?

Click to expand...

1. if it's anything like fox's thunders combo (the jab reset component of course), you can actually just hold up, but i could be very wrong lol

2. also if you mix it up with sdi away and sdi toward, sometimes you can make it so the fox wavedash *past* you and on their responsive shine send you backwards. and we all know how weird fox's backwards wavedash is lol

also,

FoxLisk said:

can you just ASDI a fox drill? like, since its a multi-hit move, do you get multiple frames of ASDI?

Click to expand...

JPOBS said:

speaking strickly from experience, i'd say yes.

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yes to mutliple frames/chances of ASDI right?

however that doesn't necessarily mean ASDI itself is enough to avoid a grab/shine to follow. there was this one match were hbox SDI'd multiple times loud enough to be heard from the camera/mic lol and it was necessary to avoid a grab

Just a lil info to go along with your quarter circle talk.

ArcNatural said:

I should mention that learning to quarter circle or half circle or in general rotate the analog stick for SDI makes SDI MUCH easier to do in the long run. You have more opportunities to input, and even the wrong SDI is usually better than no SDI at all.

So for SDI for jab resets, I almost always start at 2:00 rotate to past 9:00 (counterclock) or 10:00 rotate to past 3:00 (clockwise). This gives you a nice window of SDI. The only time I think tapping SDI is somewhat worth it is on Fox drills, but you can still achieve the same effect with circle SDI.

Click to expand...

-ACE- said:

C-stick has absolutely nothing to do with SDI. It controls ASDI. The control stick controls SDI during hitlag and the direction you're holding 1 frame later determines the direction input for ASDI, unless you are also holding the c-stick, in that case, the direction you are holding the c-stick determines your ASDI (overrides control stick).

Edit: also, regarding multiple SDI inputs during hitlag, if you choose to rotate the control stick at all, you must cross certain points of rotation for additional inputs to register. These are located very close to the 4 cardinal directions (up down left right). So if you want to use the quarter circle method, say for ledge teching, you'd want to do something like start slightly below horizontal and rotate slightly farther than the upward position to get both inputs. Or you can wiggle the control stick back and forth across one of the cardinal directions to get multiple inputs in that direction.

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Magus420 said:

KAOSTAR said:

Magus420 said:

KAOSTAR said:

Magus420 said:

KAOSTAR said:

Rock crock posted this: can you confirm or deny? I was just a bit confused when I read your .6 w of Jiggs for SDI and .3 for ASDI

"Smash DI in the corner directions moves you farther than in cardinal directions. That's just the way it is. Weird."
"the corners move you both farther horizontally and farther vertically than do the cardinal directions. If you're using the c-stick for ASDI, it should be in the corners."

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/516492-super-smash-bros-melee?search=tech

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He may have gotten that impression from TAS things that sometimes do a SDI each frame by alternating between diagonals, but that's done to satisfy the stick movement needed between each SDI rather then each one actually going further that way. If you want to go to the right you can't SDI full right every frame or you'd just be holding it, and going full right and skipping every other frame is less distance than alternating diagonals. Alternating between like 10 degrees above full right to 10 below full right would actually get you further to the right than either of those.

But yeah, I'm pretty certain a diagonal SDI doesn't cover any more total distance than a cardinal one, and it definitely doesn't cover more distance in that cardinal direction (it would in fact be less effective if you want to move in a cardinal direction).

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Lol yea I didnt think about SDI the same direction every frame is holding it. You still need that 1 frame to input the button. but yes thank you makes perfect sense.

Do you know how many directions the GC controller has on its stick? I guess more importantly is 10 degrees how far you need to move to get a seperate input?

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There are more than you'd want to try counting really. You basically move at the near exact angle you are pointing the stick when it is triggered (same with the very beginning part of an airdodge's movement). It's not limited to a small number of directions like aimable up-Bs.

The 10 degrees thing just comes from where SDIs can trigger from rotation. It's based on 4 specific points located very close to each cardinal direction for clockwise, and another 4 opposite of those for counterclockwise. To trigger a SDI by rotating along the outside you need to cross over an arrow for that particular direction.

The difference between them is much smaller if you're trying to go in an overall cardinal direction (about 20 degrees) and can go closer to a straight line with the SDIs, but it's much greater if you want to move diagonally (about 70 degrees).

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Oh, very interesting. So are you saying that Rotating from straight up to straight down will get you the initial up, + 2 arrow points=3 SDI or do the 8 ways count also = a total of 7 SDI inputs?

And if it were frame perfect could you still SDI in ANY direction neutral and do another input, or are those 16 points the only ones in which you can SDI at all?

Meaning its just harder to SDI diagonally just in general, and the best way to SDI to the right most would be smashing right, and alternate your movement to each arrow?

sorry its so many questions

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Yeah, if you smash up, then rotate to straight down you can get 3 SDIs (the actual directions you go on the 2nd/3rd SDIs will depend on where it's pointing on the frame the game sees you've gone past an arrow point).

If you go neutral inbetween you can SDI in any of the like 9001+ directions. Going from neutral you will be able to trigger a SDI by moving the stick into any part of the orange area. Also the distance you are pointing the stick doesn't change the distance (there's no slight SDI); it just takes the overall angle/slope. You can SDI in tons of directions through rotation as well, just not those that are within the same quadrant you're currently in. Entering a different quadrant is essentially what you're doing by passing over those arrows, which might be easier to understand/visualize than the arrows.

It's harder to move in a diagonal direction with multiple SDIs because it's the farthest away from the quadrants' borders/arrows which you need to go to to get another SDI without going back to neutral, so the directions you end up getting out of those SDIs every frame are far off from the direction you actually want to go in (going up, right, up, right... compared to right&slightly down, right&slightly up, right&slightly down... when trying to go to the right).

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Also, every move that connects with either a person or shield, or hurtbox will have hitlag. Its hard to tell but you literally will freeze for a certain amount of frames. During these freezes, you can input SDI with the control stick. The amount that you move is .6 the width of jiggz with each input of SDI that you get. You cannot SDI in the exact same direction twice on two consecutive frames, or get multiple inputs by simple rotation. As shown above you must either reset to neutral or rotate past a certain point in order to obtain another input.

Im not actuallly 100% sure if ASDI happens the frame after hitlag aka the same frame u start moving, or if its the last frames of hitlag. But most likely it would be the frame after since it would be more consistent to be able to just SDI during hitlag and ASDI the next frame. Cstick has priority of control stick during ASDI only and only moves you a maximum of .3 the width of jiggz. Moves that have multiple htiboxes such as m2s nair, foxes drill have hitlag on each of the hitboxes, meaning you can hold the c stick or control stick for an ASDI input on each attack.

You can SDI/ASDI while in your shield(shield DI not smash DI, I dont think you can go vertically). Shield foxs lazers and hold left/right and you will see that you slide in that direction. I believe that is just simply automatic shield DI, just as hitting a person causes hitstop, hitting a shield does the same. During those frames you should be able to input SDI that would move you a greater distance.

The damage phase on shields and on a character happens after SDI, not 100% sure if its at the same time as ASDI or if its right after. What I mean by this is that each move similar to how it does x amount of percent, it does a certain amount of damage to a shield. Marths shield breaker while unstale(im not sure which Nth/9) will completely deplete your shields health bar. At full stale, it doesnt have enough power to break a full shield. It always breaks light shields. While light shielding you have more shield stun and take more shield damage(I believe). The shield itself decays over time which adds to the damage, less the lighter you shield.

I can run down the tech cycle as well for anybody that is interested.

^^^ wow... great post (Y)

How do you SDI out of IC's down throw down aerial chain grab at 0%? Like how do you know when to "start" SDIing?

Im not too keen on the methods in which IC cg, but I can tell you that you cant SDI throws. You have to SDI the hammer attack away and slightly up(dont know if this is optimal but it has worked for me) after you DI the throw away.

1 DI the throw away, 2 hold c stick away 3 when u get hit SMash away and slightly up. IVe actually jus rapidly mashed and it seemed to work coo, idk if it mattered that I was playing as a floaty *** m2.

dont quote me on this lol

3 said:

If there is hitlag, you will be able to ASDI


I believe fox's drill falls into that category, I'm not certain though

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Yea that hella interesting about what you posted version diffs.

But if drill falls under that category then how can you DI out? or are u thinking in the earlier version you cant DI out.


another thing I just remembered, the forbidden DI disallows you to DI up for moves like foxs drill cuz then you would land with no stun or something like that.

Nana is "smarter" in 1.2, in 1.0 there are the stadium bugs, and in 1.0 M2 can pull you through the stadium, I think its only on the left side tho.

Getting hit when u miss a tech by a move that does less than like 7% gives you some weird *** no lag airborne ****, like fox/falco shines.

Lovage said:

drills are another story, i think foxes are gonna learn to use the shortest drills possible, as the more hits we hit you with, the more chances you have to SDI and often dodge our shine completely

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This. Get the fewest hits possible in order to hit confirm, that's what drill is, not an efficient way of racking up damage as it's escapable.

lol I just read 3's post about SDI on moves that do less than 1 damage. That's insane. Prof was demonstrating it to me with Peach's umbrella. That is crazy, he was telling me it was a version difference built into the umbrella, not to do with overall SDI mechanics. Insane!

I always thought you could use the Cstick to SmashDI
Whoops

Well thanks for letting me know lol.
Also, good stuff Kaostar
Magus is too good

Yeah I was trying to explain what magus's drawing depicts, but was too lazy to find that thread on my droid. Good stuff

I created a cheat-sheet exactly for this purpose. I put a lot of energy into finding the right words to make it concise. I swear I rewrote every line 10 times. I think the end-result is comprehensive and exhaustive.

If you find any mistake/gaps, or have ideas to improve it, feel free to email me at lwouis@gmail.com.



Also, if you want an in-depth explanation for the jab-reset, see Magus's answer. Funny how Hax was there at the time, and still is confused. I have to say that I find Magus's explanations always very hard to follow. That's why I mate this cheat-sheet in the first place. He's a great guy though, props to him.