• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #2 - Marth

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA

Matchup Ratio: +1

Summary:

The Marth Matchup can be tricky, but there are plenty of tips and tricks to keep the blade dancer at bay. On the ground, Marth is going to be trying to not be there. He's a character suited for the air, and he'll be jumping over your bananas and try pressuring you with FAirs. However, he does have options on the floor. Marth has Smash Attacks where the tip of the sword, referred to commonly as a tipper, does increased damage and knockback and will kill very early. This means that you'll want to keep yourself outside of his swords range at all times. If he catches you in his FThrow from 0-4%, which will be what common Marths will try for at the start of a stock, guarantees him a tipper FSmash. This is bad, and gives you a fairly big chunk of damage. He also gets a tipper FSmash out of a well-spaced glide toss, so if you see him with a banana be prepared for such shenanigans. Other silly tricks Marth has on the ground; he can followup grab releases, UpB out of shield for quick powerful hits, and pick up bananas off the ground with rising FAirs. Simply put, play it safe on the ground against Marth.

In the air though, things become interesting. Marth's FAir is so great because it's disjointed and hits on frames 4 to 8, with the entire animation lasting 34 frames. Diddy's FAir hits on frames 6 to 16, and lasts 56 frames. What this means is that if Marth and Diddy use their FAir at the same time or generally the same time, Marth will almost always get the hit. However, if you use FAir a split second earlier with generous spacing, Marth can't do anything about it so long as the FAir will connect. You'll always beat Marth's FAir, his saving grace, just by using it slightly earlier than him with the longevity of the frames that hit. Marth can predict this and start throwing out FAir's even earlier, but because you outrange him and Marth has so few frames that actually hit, chances are in your favor that you'll outspace him. If he wiffs a FAir and you're still free to attack, simply punish it with your FAir.

Camping. It's annoying to face, it's not really fun to perform, but it works in this Matchup. Sit around with a banana in hand, another laying in front of you, and spam your popgun. Marths who don't understand the Matchup will be scared, and have a hard time approaching through this. Other than reading you hard, Marth has to jump over the peanut spam and try to get you to stop. He can FAir to catch a peanut and use a second one after to hit you, so be careful of that, but that's generally Marths only approach in this situation. You can shield the FAirs and try punishing with your bananas, or just move away and reset your camp up. It's not perfect and unbeatable, but it's troublesome for any Marth and best of all; instills fear. If a peanut hits Marth close to you, you can usually punish immediately with a banana hit and then do regular followups. This is scary, and Marth mains will be deathly afraid of that free Smash Attack.

Recovering isn't exactly Marths strongsuit, but he can do it somewhat safely. Keep an eye out for if Marth uses his second jump and hit him with something immediately. Without his second jump and pushed away from the stage, Marth becomes about as good as recovering as Link. Try and peg Marth with a banana and some peanuts when he's offstage for help with this.

This Matchup is +1 in Diddy's favor. Diddys ability to keep Marth out and win often in FAir fights keeps this just out of Even territory, mostly because keeping Marth out is easier than Marth getting in. Once Marth gets in though, "Through The Fire and The Peanuts", Marth gets in. He'll use his spacing, tricks, and tippers to severely cripple your life and put you high in the air, and you're in a bad position against Marth here especially if he has platforms to attack through. Keep your cool, play safe, know your options, and camp to put a rest to this Feminine FAiry. (See what I did there?)

Stages to Utilize Against Marth:
Neutrals - Final Destination, Smashville
Counterpicks - Pictochat
Bans - Brinstar, Laylat

For more intricate help with this Matchup, please be sure to read the thread, and feel free to ask any questions not answered in it.

[Collapse="Original Post for Posterity"]


The first week went by without a hitch and came with nearly unanimous agreement on the Matchup,
but now we've got a slightly more controversial Matchup to explore. The SHFAir Queen King, Marth!

It is important that you read this! Every first post by a user in a Matchup Thread is encouraged to have at least a couple of sentences of information, alongside a ratio. Posts may not be considered for ratio and summary solidifying without these from the poster at some point in the thread, and keeping them towards the beginning helps keep discussion tidy. You have two weeks to share information that you feel is helpful in the Matchup, as well as debate with others. Compelling arguments are a must people, I expect any joking and trolls to be at a minimum.

Ideas for discussion...

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Diddy's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-


Note: This Matchup has been discussed in the past. If you wish to pull content from previous discussions that are still relevant in the current Metagame, then feel free to do so. This includes posts that are both yours and not yours.[/collapse]
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,186
Location
Rainbow Cruise
I don't know too much about this MU, but I'm not that bad at it. Our fair out ranges his, but he can space it so his sword hits our legs and he doesn't get hit which is the biggest thing. Watch out for the grab at 0 because he can Fthrow>fsmash at 0%, also I'm pretty sure he can buffer a dair at lower percents as well on us. I usually ban lylat against Marth, brinstar also isn't that bad to ban if you think the Marth would CP you there, otherwise I like banning lylat since most Marths don't CP brinstar in this MU for some reason. For CPs I'd CP FD, SV, PS1, Picto, and Maybe frigate. If you camp the center part of the 2nd transformation you can wreck marth pretty hard since his aerials don't go down too much so Fair wrecks Marth even harder there. Using up-b to gimp Marth actually works kind of well, IDK why it does, but it just does, sometimes you end up being the one punished or gimped, but usually it's the Marth. At the edge of stages try ground releasing>dsmash because a lot of times the Marth likes to midair jump fair so it will get rid of the midair jump and give you an easy gimp. I'd put this MU as fairly even, but again I'm not that great at the MU as a lot of other people always say that Diddy wrecks Marth, but IDK, I still don't get how.
 

-Googs

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
1,294
Location
Montreal, Canada
LANDING LAG

ohmygawd if he uses up+B, jab>dsmash combo's if they're in the air, so does jab>grab and jab>fsmash

Watch out when he has a banana he has good GT follow ups.

GT forward on their sheild and holding sheild is an easy way to bait an up+B

uhhh peanuts gimp him if you predict his double jump.

AD+Nanadrop works really well to avoid a fair safely

Our dtilt works pretty well in this MU if you're in his face

pretty sure ftilt beats dancing blade is spaced properly.

if you grab the ledge with invincibility frames and force him to land onstage its a free fair everytime because of landing lag.

I usually ban brinstar or lylat, Pictochat is a fun cp as always : D
 

VibeSlyph

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
995
Location
Albany/Troy NY
Oh man so many Marths are so salty about this MU.

Wish I was cool enough to have good input on this MU, but I personally still think it's Marth's favor by a little. Like, I kinda feel that Marth can zone around bananas without getting punished. I'll see how this thread goes before I commit to saying anything.
 

RoanYagyu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
223
PEACE stfu we go even each time we play

Our fair beats his
Up B is hella gay and gets him out of everything
Air release he can get fair dair and dash attack
Banana toss to fair while hes recovering is godlike
will post more later :D
 

PEACE7

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
2,213
Location
Training Mode
Lol Marth ***** also out of air release we get a dash attack if you struggle out of the grab.
 

RoanYagyu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
223
What Marth can/will do

Marth has a Fthrow>Fsmash Tipper combo at 0-4% so make sure not to get grabbed early on. If for whatever ******* reason your arent DIing he can get a stutter step fsmash tipper all the way up until 59% (I get really bored and go into training mode with random chars) But since I know we are all smart little monkeys and won't just put the controller down during a match, just watch out from 0-4% :D
He has a grab release on us that will lead to a dash attack/fair/Dair but that only happens when we struggle out of the grab (but i believe in the social someone said it only happens if we hit jump while we are tryin to mash out. If thats true then just dont press the jump :D)
Dancing blade is annoying as ****. If you DI out of it towards him, you can do whatever you want for an attack (I personally use Uair) if you DI out of it from away you can get a fair off of him. Also I have this one replay i want someone to check. I was getting Dancing Bladed by my friend's Marth (PEACE, the marth who was trolling before my first post >_>) and I was able to get a double Fair out while in it with a banana in hand (I've gotten a single fair out before with a banana in hand but i always thought i just dropped the banana while being hit or something) so if anyone can check this out for me that'd be great
Up B OoS is annoying, his Up B has invincibility on startup so always be cautious when you are tryin to combo him especially at high percents because it can kill.
Fairs and Nairs you will see a lot of.
His glidetoss is a beast (goes halfway across FD) if you get hit by a banana from them, expect a tipper.
Im not sure about this one but I believe Marth could get passed peanut camp but full hopping into the middle of the arc , fair to catch the peanut and take out the next peanut and we may be within range to get hit by the fair also, if not he could do dancing blade once he lands. (but thats when we shield and punish, and lol at them for thinking they had a chance :D)

What we can do to **** him up

Camp your heart out. Marth has little to no option to getting passed it. Trouble is getting away from the ****er, he's pretty fast
Our Fair beats his , so abuse it when he tries to fair approach and you have no naners out yet
When Marth is recovering don't be afraid to toss a banana in his face and fair him, as long as he isnt within range of the ledge with his up B, he won't do it. If he does, worst case you both die.
If he tries to down B us while using barrels, it will backfire and the barrel will take him out. If we charge barrels while he Up B's to the ledge, the barrel usually hits him in the face ( I think its cause he goes up and the barrel usually goes off in some upward angle)


Personal Tricks and Stages

Uthrow>Uair is nice (saw ADHD do it against mikeHAZE and have been abusing it since) nice little 20%, if they airdodge after Side b their landing, if they expect the uair wait for the airdodge and punish (I guess this is more of a general trick on anyone but its funny against this loser cause he has a 0% throw combo )
Marth is fast enough to get to us right after we pull our first banana so I wait for him to come rushin and toss his *** offstage. FAir him whenever he jumps , once hes offstage setup camp.

FD BF SV PS1 Picto , all the generic Diddy stages are nice. Ban Brinstar or Lylat.

I say this is Even or +1 us
 

VonDarkmoon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
92
Location
Santa Rosa, CA
at 0% marth is able to Fthrow>Fthrow>Dair us off the stage. I've had it happen too many times against me.

I'll add more when i get on later and am not rushing out the door for class.
 

RoanYagyu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
223
I don't think thats guarenteed Von. I'll try testing it with my friend today
 

RoanYagyu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
223
I guess maybe with full hop dair its inescapable, but idk. Ill find out by tonight
 

RoanYagyu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
223
Random dumb trick (also works with falco's bair) if you know a marth is gonna up b to the ledge you can do a fair to stage spike him. You have to make sure your fair hits him from behind or at his head kind of...idk hard to explain. a Money match of Glutonny's falco vs Leon's marth is on youtube where glutonny uses that little trick while hes tryin to edgeguard leon (I believe it was first or 2nd game)
 

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA
Going to need some more ratios, guys.

I'll pull some posts from the BBR MU Chart thread and put them here since people don't seem to want to rediscuss what has already been previously discussed.

Wait seriously? You guys struggle with Marth?

Wow. Learn to projectile spam guys...and I don't even spam and this MU is easy.
Marth is...well not easy, but we definitely don't have a disadvantage. We got an advantage for sure. Marth has no projectile, and average recovery, and you can practically punish every single approach he has with banana OoS. I just summed up 90% of the Marth MU in 1 sentence.
Don't throw a banana at Marth while he is short hoping or running straight toward you (cause dash > retreating Fair is like 3/4ths of their tell). This will solve most banana catching problems.

EDIT: Also just stand there holding a banana sometimes (shield or spotdodge when necessary). It will drive them crazy. Almost always leads to dancing blade which is just shielding then OoS nana.
@Alphazealot

Marth's options on shield from the air have less disadvantage on shield than you have options fast enough.
"Just shield a fair" is a really silly thing to say. Your nana is 8 frames out of shield and thats right on top of you, not considering marth's range and his fair is only 4 frames disadvantaged (ff'd mind you.... but feasibly various degrees of vertical placement makes fair 'safe')

Diddy Kong's waiting in shield is the utmost preferable thing in my experience.
Because if a diddy's shielding with a banana, he can't grab, and they're generally waiting. I know I can do things completely safe on his shield and have a pressure advantage upon that fast fall landing (I can grab you, or if you throw a banana and I shield I'm free to punish you, etc).

If your generalisation of the match up is shield fair and Banana toss OoS you wouldn't be winning against Mikehaze
 

RoanYagyu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
223
alright turns out the fthrow>dair is a true combo :(
same goes for Fthrow>Nair
so just dont get grabbed at 0
 

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA
Sigh. I didn't want to have to do this, but I guess since people are too slow to discuss that I'm going to anyways. I'm going to extend Matchup discussions to two weeks. There is a catch though. In order to make up for this, there will now be two Matchups running at once. Every week, one Matchup will end and another will begin the two week period. This won't get Matchups done any faster, but will provide more time to discuss since we clearly need the extra time.
Reposting here to show that this thread has been extended for another week for Matchup discussion for determining ratio.
 

VonDarkmoon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
92
Location
Santa Rosa, CA
alright turns out the fthrow>dair is a true combo :(
same goes for Fthrow>Nair
so just dont get grabbed at 0
Yeah, i figured as much, do appreciate the testing though.

If no one's pointed this out (haven't read through the thread entirely) dont ever forget Marth's up-b. it's a good OoS option to catch us off guard and if we try to say jab>grab i'm certain he can actually up-b out before the grab. It's something to always kinda have in the back of your mind.

having a banana against an off stage marth is really good. hit him with it, follow up with a Fair or bair, get free gimp. although i'm certain that applies to a lot of characters.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,186
Location
Rainbow Cruise
I played Kadaj in friendlies/MM and I did find something that I thought would work and confirmed it working against him pretty well. Have a banana in your hand and when he's trying to approach you, just shoot one peanut and then throw the banana, if neither hit him then just run up fair and if the peanut hits him then the banana will hit him most of the time and you can just punish the slip and it worked really well.
 

-Googs

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
1,294
Location
Montreal, Canada
I played Kadaj in friendlies/MM and I did find something that I thought would work and confirmed it working against him pretty well. Have a banana in your hand and when he's trying to approach you, just shoot one peanut and then throw the banana, if neither hit him then just run up fair and if the peanut hits him then the banana will hit him most of the time and you can just punish the slip and it worked really well.
peanut>forward GT is a true combo i do it all the time
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
10,188
Location
B.C. Canada
peanut>da>gt up>peanut>da>gt back and up>instant throw the first one up>peanut>da>gt back and up>instant throw the second one>instant throw the first one>instant throw the third one>continue juggling peanuts is better
 

Count

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
2,454
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
Marth has a huge blind spot beneath him..use upthrow!

Avoid the ledge...marth is arguably the toughest character for us to get off the ledge against. A well spaced nair from Marth is extremely tough to avoid.

It is easy to keep Marth out..but try not to let him in! Marth can eff us up as bad as anybody if he can get through our wall..sadly for marth its extremely difficult for him to get through our wall.

Mixing up an occasional aerial side b is good if his fair patterns are becoming predictable.

6-4 or 55:45 diddy.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,186
Location
Rainbow Cruise
I wouldn't call it a blind spot, his dair still hits us there and he can dair before we get the uair off, P3 does it to me all the time when i try it.
 

Count

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
2,454
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
Either way, Marth is vulnerable when he's above us with his horrid air dodge and laggy dair. It's still a good option.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,626
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
I have limited experience against Diddy, but I'm inclined to say +1 in Diddy's favor.

There's just too much he can do in the neutral situation, and we really only have the advantage once we're in. Not unbeatable by any means, but it's not our advantage unless we're on a sufficiently janky stage.
 

xxmoosexx

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
1,086
Location
NC Mooresville
I played Kadaj in friendlies/MM and I did find something that I thought would work and confirmed it working against him pretty well. Have a banana in your hand and when he's trying to approach you, just shoot one peanut and then throw the banana, if neither hit him then just run up fair and if the peanut hits him then the banana will hit him most of the time and you can just punish the slip and it worked really well.
unless i have the imagination of a ******** person...can't marth just run backwards and powershield the banana and then z catch in the air?
 

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA
Ratio has been set and first post updated with a quick summary, thanks for the help and I'm glad that I increased discussions to two weeks now!
 
Top Bottom