Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #4 - Wario

Sails · Apr 16, 2011

Matchup Ratio: EVEN

Summary:

Soon to come; need sleep before a tournament...

Stages to Utilize Against Wario:

Neutrals - Final Destination, Smashville
Counterpicks - Lylat Cruise
Bans - Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise

For more intricate help with this Matchup, please be sure to read the thread, and feel free to ask any questions not answered in it.

[Collapse="Original Post for Posterity"]

Wario isn't such a bad guy, he's just misunderstood...
And smells...And steals...And cheats...
Oh nevermind, he really is just a horrible person.
But does this make him an equally horrible Matchup?

It is important that you read this! Every first post by a user in a Matchup Thread is encouraged to have at least a couple of sentences of information, alongside a ratio. Posts may not be considered for ratio and summary solidifying without these from the poster at some point in the thread, and keeping them towards the beginning helps keep discussion tidy. You have two weeks to share information that you feel is helpful in the Matchup, as well as debate with others. Compelling arguments are a must people, I expect any joking and trolls to be at a minimum.

Ideas for discussion...

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Diddy's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-

Note: This Matchup has been discussed in the past. If you wish to pull content from previous discussions that are still relevant in the current Metagame, then feel free to do so. This includes posts that are both yours and not yours.[/Collapse]

Boofy! · Apr 16, 2011

I'll get some of the obvious and maybe not so obvious out of the way.. Diddy>Wario on the ground, but we all know that Wario isn't likely to stay there for long, inhibiting our banana game. Fair is good, its range is better than any of Warios aerials, but Wario is super mobile in the air so he can "bob and weave" so to speak. Camp him with the usual peanuts and bananas, try to predict his landing and throw a nana there. Diddy hump is good here. I'm unsure what happens with MFK vs. bite, we have the hump>footstool on him too IIRC.

Bike can just drive over bananas so be wary of that. Double nana lock can get him to the edge where we can force aerial GR to follow up with Fair, Dair, or Uair, mix it up. If they anticipate Dair they'll try and SDI to the stage to tech/save themselves, Fair them instead and you'll catch them off guard with bad DI.

Wario is prettty good with items, he can use nanas to set up fart, or fsmash, which can really hurt.. he also has gimmicky tire combos. If for some reason you get caught under a thrown bike, angle up your shield like with nado.

I dont like BF here, Ban Brinstar. CP the usuals.

Robin1613 · Apr 16, 2011

I don't have much Wario exp but I have played my states best wario so i'll share what I think on this MU.

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-

In the air: Wario wins by far, his aerial mobility is unmatched and hard to contend with, don't challenge him here.

On the Ground:
We have the advantage, warios ground moves have little range, his best ground move besides his super armore'd fsmash would be his ftilt. that thing kills early so watch out for it.

-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-

Wario's Fart - self explanatory, this thing will kill REALLY early and can be hard to predict ( if you dont have alot of exp fighting wario ) I really dont have a strategy on avoiding it since its so fast and unpredictable...

Bite - Wario will sometimes eat your bananas up with his bite move, if u see him use bite, DO NOT attack head on, you WILL lose ( not even fair can beat it head on ) instead throw a banana and punish on the few frames it takes to swallow it.

-Diddy's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-

Bananas - dont be predictable with these things, wario can pick up your bananas with his aerials and be out of there before you know it. hes really mobile so going autopilot vs him is extremely unadvised.

-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-

I found that throwing one banan in the air to create sort of a wall too be intimidating against warios killer aerial game. I advise throwing one banan in the air and hiding behind it until it falls back down then rethrowing it back. Peanut spam is useful in this mu too.

-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-

Ban brinstar, dont ask why DO IT. its our worst stage and his hardest counterpick!

CP - hell most likely ban FD so i suggest Lylat ( i love lylat ) the planes tilting helps alot and sometimes messes up his spacing.

Ratio - EVEN

Lord Chair · Apr 17, 2011

With the current stagelist, you're better off banning RC.

Diddy doesn't do half bad on Brinstar against Wario.

Player-1 · Apr 17, 2011

Lord Chair said:
With the current stagelist, you're better off banning RC.

Diddy doesn't do half bad on Brinstar against Wario.

you're dumb.

just sayin'

Lord Chair · Apr 17, 2011

You seem rather mad.

I should report for flaming but you know what?

I'm a cool guy.

What I do is.

Post CP.

Oh, my, ****ing, God.

No wait.

Let's just make a huge contentless post instead.

That is, apparently, the way to go on the Diddy boards.

Then again, perhaps I'd be better of adding space between lines.

Like this.

This way, the post becomes even bigger!

I can do it even more!

However, that way I may or may or make the post unreadable.

That would be a shame.

I accidentally Europe.

apparentlygoatse.jpg

Sails · Apr 17, 2011

Player-1 said:
SIGH

Please stop trolling in these threads, if you're going to disagree with someones opinion at least give reasoning.

Also, enjoy your infraction for the goatse Lord Chair :|

SaveMeJebus · Apr 17, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juFZh92MUOY

Lord Chair · Apr 17, 2011

Infraction for posting food.

Oh the humanity.

edit: this is hilarious, im seeing this:

Kaptain Kong · Apr 17, 2011

bro you play LoL?

also why you looking up respectless on wikitionary lol

Lord Chair · Apr 17, 2011

I was kinda cba about privacy stuff.

Yes I play LoL.

I was looking up respectless because Firefox says it doesn't exist. Disrespectful is apparently a more desirable term. Respectless does exist though

Count · Apr 17, 2011

I like to camp under platforms against Wario. I CP Yoshi's Island when I can.

I can't help a ton at this matchup, even though I play krystedez a lot, (namesearch bait!!! <3) I'm always kinda experimenting with it. Gnes and ADHD are both very good at this matchup imo. I think we lose though, 45-55..mostly because Wario lives forever and its really tough to land an fsmash or dsmash on him.

TheReflexWonder · Apr 17, 2011

Stand under a platform and glide toss backwards for eight minutes. Instant stalemate.

That being said, Wario can just choose not to play with you, and that can be frustrating. Wario is perfectly fine with letting you camp while he charges his Waft. The aforementioned platform helps him run away if that's his plan. Instant throwing combined with Wario's excellent horizontal aerial mobility, allows him to land safely in general. Wario doesn't have a ton of tools to get in on Diddy, but he has enough to manage alright.

The matchup should be around even, though I could see it swinging ever so slightly in either character's favor. I'm not perfect at the matchup, so I couldn't say.

Player-1 · Apr 17, 2011

Lord Chair said:
You seem rather mad.

I should report for flaming but you know what?

I'm a cool guy.

What I do is.

Post CP.

Oh, my, ****ing, God.

No wait.

Let's just make a huge contentless post instead.

That is, apparently, the way to go on the Diddy boards.

Then again, perhaps I'd be better of adding space between lines.

Like this.

This way, the post becomes even bigger!

I can do it even more!

However, that way I may or may or make the post unreadable.

That would be a shame.

I accidentally Europe.

apparentlygoatse.jpg

Now you're getting it!

Sails · Apr 18, 2011

Lord Chair said:
Infraction for posting food.

Oh the humanity.

edit: this is hilarious, im seeing this:

I know this is off-topic, but the site you were linking from redirects hotlinking from other referrers to goatse.

Lord Chair · Apr 18, 2011

Yeah I made someone else post it on the Dutch Smashboards and when he used the exact same link it'd end up being food.

Baffles the mind, really. I just got trolled by Google big time.

Also, usmash OoS pro kkthnx this post is now relevant to this discussion.

B.Mack · Apr 18, 2011

Helpful notes
1. Diddy owns Wario on the ground.
2. peanuts are VERY useful for keeping Wario grounded and breaking his momentum.
3. Wario can eat bananas with little lag afterwards.
4. fair and diddy flip kick will beat the bite. if you see Wario biting, just monkey kick him.
5. the bike can ride over bananas and uncharged peanuts wont knock him off. he can ride through naner throws if he wheelies.
6. you can naner combo Wario to the edge and then grab release to dair or fair.

VonDarkmoon · Apr 20, 2011

Even though i have both Sky and jeepy in this area, it's been a little while since i've actually done the MU, but i'll throw my 2 cents in:

Bair and Fair can out space wario's aerials, dont try to straight out beat them, it wont work.

@b.mack: you sure fair and MFK can beat bite? might be dependant on spacing but i dont think they do, i'll have to test.

Expect wario to be in the air almost all the time, patience is going to be key.

if he tries to approach with Short-hop Dair or Nair, try running back and pivot grabbing, i know it can work for Dair but i'm not sure for Nair.

Wario can have a really good banana game along with tires, meaning we need to keep really good control of them at all times. insta-throw is really good IMO.

i feel this MU is at worst 45:55 Wario's favor.

i'd ban brinstar over RC personally, and CP smashville or Yoshi's, seeing how FD will be banned.

TheReflexWonder · Apr 20, 2011

Wario gets a lot of good stuff with his glide toss. He can glide toss forward, throwing the banana down, and get free grab, F-Smash, Waft...pretty much whatever his greedy heart desires. Z-Dropping bananas, tires, and the occasional Bite make shield pressure potentially nasty. Diddy just has to play really careful and really intelligently. Wario can edgeguard Diddy well, too.

×MÁR× the best diddy · Apr 21, 2011

Aside from mk i would say wario is diddies hardest mu. His fsmash can kill at low percents,he can pull off guaranteed farts KOs on diddies recovery and almost all of his moves out prioritize diddies moves

Kantrip · Apr 21, 2011

MK is easy what are you talking about? Diddy is our hardest MU.

My biggest problem with Wario is getting him on the ground long enough to wreck him. Peanuts are a must!

ChocoNaner · Apr 22, 2011

Utilt, Fair, Usmash, Uair, and the occasional MFK are all you need. and obv smashes when yur gon kill. :I

we win the mU 4-6.

ban Brinstar.

use a lot of grs.

only need 1 banana too.

peanuts are irrelevant in this mu. I;

Player-1 · Apr 23, 2011

choco gave the most useless mu summary ever dont listen to him :3

TheReflexWonder · Apr 23, 2011

ChocoNaner said:
Utilt, Fair, Usmash, Uair, and the occasional MFK are all you need. and obv smashes when yur gon kill. :I

we win the mU 4-6.

ban Brinstar.

use a lot of grs.

only need 1 banana too.

peanuts are irrelevant in this mu. I;

How do you defend against Wario's ground game? He has a nice grab range, and if he has a banana or tires out, it's not as simple as "shield and glide toss somewhere."

Also, U-Tilt (and U-Smash, to a lesser extent) trade with Bite, which is hardly a clean win in your favor when it puts you in the air and does about the same damage.

How do you get grab releases? Don't you need to grab Wario at the edge to get an air release?

I disagree with peanuts being irrelevant in the match-up, as well. Smart banana placement makes the Pop Gun pretty solid at keeping Wario from coming in at ideal approach angles.

chimpact · Apr 24, 2011

Wow choco, everything you said was wrong. Way to go babe.

Player-1 · Apr 24, 2011

except for banning brinstar.

ban that ****.

ChocoNaner · Apr 25, 2011

iunno why but that seems like such a troll post reflex I:...

but if yur serious, defending against wario's ground game is kinda easy, just put a naner on the ground, and then wall, that way he either trips or takes a Fair to the face, and using a DA>Usmash is hella gay as a shield poker and because wario's fat, it's a lot better against him than other chars :I

umm, ftilt, lol? .-.

no I:

i'm honestly indifferent about peanuts but i play hella aggro against wario so that might just be the biased, i see how nuts can be effective against him tho, at least combined with naner placements xI

Ingulit · Apr 26, 2011

ChocoNaner said:
iunno why but that seems like such a troll post reflex I:...

but if yur serious, defending against wario's ground game is kinda easy, just put a naner on the ground, and then wall, that way he either trips or takes a Fair to the face, and using a DA>Usmash is hella gay as a shield poker and because wario's fat, it's a lot better against him than other chars :I

umm, ftilt, lol? .-.

no I:

i'm honestly indifferent about peanuts but i play hella aggro against wario so that might just be the biased, i see how nuts can be effective against him tho, at least combined with naner placements xI

U-Smash is NOT a good idea (especially against Reflex, lol; there have been entire threads that revolved around his ability to SDI); all Wario has to do is SDI out and proceed to weave and poke you with a F-Air or smack you with an F-Smash. U-Smash should really only be used on actually fat characters like DK and DDD who have a harder time SDIing out.

No comment on the F-Tilt, I'm not sure if it would do any better than U-Tilt (though it is more disjointed horizontally).

This is straight-up wrong, and I want to make sure this is understood: you DEFINITELY need to be holding Wario over an edge to get a guaranteed Grab Release combo. Diddy can't force an air break any other way (and any good Wario won't let you get an air break in any other situation).

Peanuts are needed in this match-up. If you try to go aggro against good Wario players, they'll just avoid your attacks with their superior aerial mobility, get a lead, and then air camp and time you out (I learned this the hard way last week xD). You really need to pitch a tent and just camp. Camp camp camp camp camp, shoot moar peanuts

ChocoNaner · Apr 26, 2011

reflex=/=all wario mains

k :I

dun really care, a buffered Dtilt out of a grounded gr is usually gay enough to save you xI

lol I:

understand this, when you're going to use personal exp. as an example to prove yur point, and no offense, make sure that you've first proved you don suggdigg @ this game, as in you've made yourself known in yur state (as an actual good player, not goin to a bunch of tourneys and getting to know everyone). xI

Ingulit · Apr 26, 2011

ChocoNaner said:
reflex=/=all wario mains

k :I

dun really care, a buffered Dtilt out of a grounded gr is usually gay enough to save you xI

lol I:

understand this, when you're going to use personal exp. as an example to prove yur point, and no offense, make sure that you've first proved you don suggdigg @ this game, as in you've made yourself known in yur state (as an actual good player, not goin to a bunch of tourneys and getting to know everyone). xI

That has nothing to do with the point I made, which is that U-Smash is a bad idea. Do you want to even address that?

K.

The point I was making is that no Grab Release combo is guaranteed unless you are holding Wario over an edge; using a D-Tilt out of a ground break works the exact same on Wario as everyone else (except maybe Ness and Lucas). Thus, the D-Tilt recommendation is a general one, not a recommendation specific to the Wario match-up (IE, while it may work for you, it is irrelevant in this context).

So the only way you can refute my recommendation is through ad hominem attacks? I suppose I could have said that exact same thing to you when you mentioned your own personal experience, but I figured I would try using actual logic to defend my claim instead (which, since apparently you glossed over it the first time, is that camping against Wario is a good strategy). To each his own, but I would like it if you actually addressed my idea instead of my person

Kantrip · Apr 26, 2011

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Wario's favourite angle to approach=the angle of your peanuts.

Count · Apr 26, 2011

Usmash is not bad against wario...even if they sdi it, it is usually down so its tough to punish us right away. Usmash/tilt both are not bad for keeping wario out.

Imo of course. I'm always down for debate

Player-1 · Apr 26, 2011

Aight, choco sucks **** and dont know what he's talkin' bout

In this MU, camping works really well if you have 2 bananas our and wario is trying to approach from the air, glidetoss them forward/backward up a bunch and have a wall of peanuts works well, if the Wario is good at catching them then it's a bit harder but it still works well.

Usmash/Utilt work great in this MU especially to punish poorly spaced dairs OoS and such (if you jump cancel the Usmash it may even work on spaced ones if you time it right). Usmash works best though when you predict an airdodge approach and hit him with the last hit or 2 of the Usmash so he doesn't get a chance to DI it, and then the Wario just facepalms at getting hit by a Usmash especially reflex.

You can air release Wario to a bunch of stuff, but you can only do it over an edge or slope. Any aerials you can hit him with also if you pivot a side-b it will hit, a peanut may even work as well :3.

Dtilt works good for spacing especially if the Wario is trying to play on the ground (which he shouldn't be >.>, but if he is...)

Ban brinstar, any neutral works well except for Lylat IMO. It's a pretty even MU IMO.

ChocoNaner · Apr 26, 2011

holy **** yur stupid, missed the point of my entire post I:...

first sentence was there because yur assuming that because reflex, which is 1 of only 2 pure warios that has beaten m2k (iirc) and 1/3 that has been able to compete nationally (others being fiction and malc), can di out of it, all warios can, it's harder than you make it seem

the dtilt thing i said because i don use grs so much, but knowing that tourney nerves affects everyone, i know sometimes people do things w/o thinking, like say mashing to escape from a grab (this being bad for wario, dur), ands i luvs using dtilt on grounded grs :I

don compare socal to AL, first of all, and it wasn't an ad hominem, derp. i was trying to say that because you used personal exp. when you tried to give an example of why peanuts are useful against wario, you're already giving yurself credit, as if a wario of reflex's caliber were fighting a diddy of the same caliber, and we all know that's far from true, but i know peanuts play their part in every mu, i also mentioned that my opinion might be biased because i play super aggro against them, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed that I:

read this post, look back at the other post, then post something that isn't going to look like bs to me plocks xI

TheReflexWonder · Apr 26, 2011

ChocoNaner said:
iunno why but that seems like such a troll post reflex I:...

but if yur serious, defending against wario's ground game is kinda easy, just put a naner on the ground, and then wall, that way he either trips or takes a Fair to the face, and using a DA>Usmash is hella gay as a shield poker and because wario's fat, it's a lot better against him than other chars :I

umm, ftilt, lol? .-.

no I:

i'm honestly indifferent about peanuts but i play hella aggro against wario so that might just be the biased, i see how nuts can be effective against him tho, at least combined with naner placements xI

Thing is, though, Diddy is not nearly as scary when only one banana is on the field. Due to taking a while to KO, getting grabbed or D-Smashed is not that big of a deal at low percents, and it's not even incredibly likely in that scenario. With only one banana, you have a much more difficult time if you guess incorrectly. Will Wario get somewhat near and airdodge away to bait your F-Air? Will he straight-up go through you with an airdodge while you focus on your walling ability where he just was? Will he catch the banana and glide toss towards you like he is Diddy Kong? All of those things are very possible, and all of those things are much easier to deal with when you have the second banana in your hand, or at least on the other side of you.

ChocoNaner said:
dun really care, a buffered Dtilt out of a grounded gr is usually gay enough to save you xI

This is usually Diddy's go-to from a ground-release, I've found. Wario can Shield SDI it into a grab if he sees it coming. Also, if a Wario player thinks you're going to do it more than once, he can SDI the first hit upward and do a falling U-Air on you. Diddy is generally better off just throwing Wario for the 10% and attempt to regain stage control.

CrimsonFeint said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Wario's favourite angle to approach=the angle of your peanuts.

Correct. You have to be careful with it, since Wario can DACUS you if you're predictable with it (a banana in front of you helps a lot, but Wario can do a short DACUS while picking up the banana, too). Overall, though, it's definitely a nice tool and it makes Diddy Kong harder to approach, for sure.

Count said:
Usmash is not bad against wario...even if they sdi it, it is usually down so its tough to punish us right away. Usmash/tilt both are not bad for keeping wario out.

U-Smash isn't bad on Wario because it's quite quick to start, so if you're not predictable with it, it's difficult to switch to SDI Mode and punish adequately. Don't be obvious, and it's a fine move, though it does leave you quite open if you whiff.

Player-1 said:
In this MU, camping works really well if you have 2 bananas our and wario is trying to approach from the air, glidetoss them forward/backward up a bunch and have a wall of peanuts works well, if the Wario is good at catching them then it's a bit harder but it still works well.

Usmash/Utilt work great in this MU especially to punish poorly spaced dairs OoS and such (if you jump cancel the Usmash it may even work on spaced ones if you time it right). Usmash works best though when you predict an airdodge approach and hit him with the last hit or 2 of the Usmash so he doesn't get a chance to DI it, and then the Wario just facepalms at getting hit by a Usmash especially reflex.

You can air release Wario to a bunch of stuff, but you can only do it over an edge or slope. Any aerials you can hit him with also if you pivot a side-b it will hit, a peanut may even work as well :3.

Dtilt works good for spacing especially if the Wario is trying to play on the ground (which he shouldn't be >.>, but if he is...)

Ban brinstar, any neutral works well except for Lylat IMO. It's a pretty even MU IMO.

I agree with all of this, especially my getting frustrated with your dumb character.

Careful with D-Tilt, though--If you're predictable, bad things can happen. It's still a fantastic move that's great for poking, though. Try to use it less as a damage racker or panic button and more as an excellent spacing move, which is what it really is.

FelixTrix · Apr 27, 2011

×MÁR× the best diddy said:
Aside from mk i would say wario is diddies hardest mu. His fsmash can kill at low percents,he can pull off guaranteed farts KOs on diddies recovery and almost all of his moves out prioritize diddies moves

what are you smoking? wario isn't a bad matchup for diddy. it's probably even or in our favor because pro wario's don't exist anymore besides malcom so we don't have a lot of players to base this off of.

"His fsmash can kill at low percents," - if you're bad.
"he can pull off guaranteed farts KOs on diddies recovery" - also if you're bad.

and diddy side b kick > wario's everything - fart. fair beats or clashes with all of his aerials, and that's really the only important thing.

Player-1 · Apr 28, 2011

if wario shields your kick then he can fart OoS which sucks.

TheReflexWonder · Apr 28, 2011

If Wario is spaced well enough (as in, where he doesn't have to hope that you'll kick early), he can N-Air or D-Air, as well. Wario just needs to stay in motion to make sure that Diddy doesn't catch him with it.

Boofy! · Apr 28, 2011

does MFK beat bite?

TheReflexWonder · Apr 28, 2011

Boofy! said:
does MFK beat bite?

If your foot doesn't go into Wario's open mouth (as in, you hit him at the top of his face/head), which isn't hard to space, then, yes. Sometimes, you trade, depending on spacing. Regardless, Bite is not a reliable response to Diddy's Forward-B.

Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #4 - Wario

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