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Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #7 - Zero Suit Samus

Sails

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA

Matchup Ratio: +1​

Important Posts:​

Count said:
Alright, Zero Suit Samus:

To start off, we win this matchup 55-45 or 6-4 imo. Zero Suit Samus struggles against shields, and we have the best in the game.

Zero Suit Samus specific stuff: (not necessarily matchup specific) Try not to spotdodge up close against Zero Suit unless you read a grab or spotdodge her grab on reaction. Zero Suit Samus, moreso than a lot of characters, thrives on reads of dodges etc, spotdodge is especially punishable since Zero Suit cannot really punish shields as is. Finally, understand that one hit from Zero Suit could lead to an entire stock.....so if you're ahead, keep focused. If this happens to you and you're behind, understand that she is somewhat of a momentum based character and that you can still win that game.

Matchup stuff: Zero Suit Samus struggles more against the 'adhd setup' than most characters. She has to take a huge risk to try and get in, and nothing she can do to get in is safe. You want to be in a specific zone against Zero Suit Samus, where you're far enough away to avoid her dsmash/side b, yet close enough to where she is in your range for a banana toss. Our fair beats about everything she has as well as aerial side b (be careful with the side b's as you could eat a zss side b, haha) Also, be vary of trying to shield grab Zero Suit Samus's back air. A whiffed shield grab on a well spaced back air often leads to being punished. If Zero Suit Samus is on a platform above you, scooting aruond in your shield as she bounces around can be very frustrating for her/make her feel unsafe. Watch Gnes vids for the scooting if you must. Finally, upthrow is good in this matchup as it puts Zero Suit Samus in an uncomfortable position trying to land against us. Also, a reverse glide toss can be an excellent tool if you find yourself getting too close to Zero Suit Samus' danger area (area where side b/downsmash can smoosh us!)

Zero Suit Samus recovering/on the ledge: A dribbled banana in front of you as Zero Suit is recovering is your bread and butter as far as punishing her recovery goes. Even if she doesn't land on your banana, you limit her options so you can properly predict another option. By the same token, grabbing the ledge with a banana in your hand can sometimes lead to a punishment as well. Sh, throw the banana can lead to a side b, fair. or grab. At the end of the day, these things can only limit her options and you as the player have to make the proper read. However, doing this as she recovers can make your reads easier. A banana in front of you when ZSS is on the ledge does the same thing. Zero Suit only has a few options off the ledge now and you can often punish with a fair or a bait/shield grab.

Our recovery: Recovering low against ZSS seems like a good idea most of the time. Obviously, you have to mix your recoveries up, but ZSS lacks the multi-hit move to gimp us from below that some have and additionally it is risky for her to go low. However, be wary of ZSS snapping the ledge or waiting for you on the ground with a charged downsmash. Recovering high has to be done still, of course, as you don't want your recovery to get too predictable. ZSS is very good at punishing you as you recover high, as she can frame trap you with uairs or read your landing for a downsmash, or even go up and get you for a bair. When your recovering high just make sure to be unpredictable and use all your options (side b, air dodge, b reversal, ff aerial, etc) ZSS is very good at punishing us as we land.


Summary: Play smart, limit her recovery options, be patient and make ZSS make mistakes. If you do these things you'll find success in the matchup. Remember that ZSS has difficulty getting in on us, and don't panic if ZSS gets a long combo off for a stock.

Here are good videos to watch of the matchup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTEABashs6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd4D91cm5ZE
Click to expand...
Player-1 said:
I like overwhelming ZSS with bananas in this MU until I get to kill percent move range then I started camping hard to avoid the dsmash. Her aerials are great kill moves, but they stale really easily since she has to use them a lot to get damage anyway. Her kill moves are super predictable IMO (namely her side-b). Any time she SHs away she will use her side-b. Any time she dashs away from you she will pivot side-b, any time you are on the ledge she will side-b. Her aerials are pretty easy to avoid unless you get dsmashed which is why I like to camp at high percents to avoid the dsmash. Just punish everything OoS, especially her side-bs. In this MU, I feel it is best for ZSS to just toss 2 armor pieces off of the stage and keep one for herself otherwise I think Diddy can get good control over one of the armor pieces. Ban brinstar in this MU, ZSS's dsmash is amazing here along with her side-b, the stage sets you up for so much juggling for her and stuff. My 2nd ban would be YI, you get killed off of the sides earlier on this stage and she has great platform control which takes up most of the stage. She can also wall jump with her down-b to help her recover. CP FD if you can or SV. PS1 is a good stage for both characters along with BF so both of them are okay.
Click to expand...
Linkvader said:
All i know is do not approach with something punishable, because Dsmash lets ZSS do anything she wants to you... She can kill with bair, uair, dspecial, and side special. She can't kill super easily, but watch out for her infinite with a nanner. In the beginning get rid of her items almost every time, unless if you're using them to punish her. She's really good in the air, and she can juggle you with uair, which is one of the best aerials in the game. It out-ranges Dair, so it' can be hard to get back to the ground.

Good nanner control is important, because a good ZSS can use items well. I might say to ban Rainbow Cruise in this MU, but banning Brinstar might be good as always. Neutrals are good for Diddy as always. Her side B will be used for spacing, and Diddy can only throw a nanner through it, or come from above.
She can be killed kinda early because she's very close to the weight of MK. She can shoot her paralyzer shot to try and stay away a bit, but if she starts to charge it, SHE CAN'T CANCEL THE CHARGE. If you're close and she tries to charge one, try and Dair her from above, throw a nanner, or maybe Nair of Fair if you get the chance. I'm not sure on the number for this MU though. The most important thing is nanner control. PLEASE DON'T GET HIT BY HER DSMASH!!!
Click to expand...

Stages to Utilize Against Zero Suit Samus:

Neutrals - Final Destination, Smashville
Counterpicks - Final Destination, Smashville
Bans - Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise

For more intricate help with this Matchup, please be sure to read the thread, and feel free to ask any questions not answered in it.

​
[Collapse="Original Post for Posterity"]
DSmash DSmash DSmash DSmash
DSmash DSmash DSmash
DSmash DSmash
​


It is important that you read this! Every first post by a user in a Matchup Thread is encouraged to have at least a couple of sentences of information, alongside a ratio. Posts may not be considered for ratio and summary solidifying without these from the poster at some point in the thread, and keeping them towards the beginning helps keep discussion tidy. You have two weeks to share information that you feel is helpful in the Matchup, as well as debate with others. Compelling arguments are a must people, I expect any joking and trolls to be at a minimum.

Ideas for discussion...

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Diddy's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-​


Note: This Matchup has been discussed in the past. If you wish to pull content from previous discussions that are still relevant in the current Metagame, then feel free to do so. This includes posts that are both yours and not yours.[/Collapse]
 
L

Linkvader

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
298
Location
BAY AREA
Cool First post :D. All i know is do not approach with something punishable, because Dsmash lets ZSS do anything she wants to you... She can kill with bair, uair, dspecial, and side special. She can't kill super easily, but watch out for her infinite with a nanner. In the beginning get rid of her items almost every time, unless if you're using them to punish her. She's really good in the air, and she can juggle you with uair, which is one of the best aerials in the game. It out-ranges Dair, so it' can be hard to get back to the ground.

Good nanner control is important, because a good ZSS can use items well. I might say to ban Rainbow Cruise in this MU, but banning Brinstar might be good as always. Neutrals are good for Diddy as always. Her side B will be used for spacing, and Diddy can only throw a nanner through it, or come from above.
She can be killed kinda early because she's very close to the weight of MK. She can shoot her paralyzer shot to try and stay away a bit, but if she starts to charge it, SHE CAN'T CANCEL THE CHARGE. If you're close and she tries to charge one, try and Dair her from above, throw a nanner, or maybe Nair of Fair if you get the chance. I'm not sure on the number for this MU though. The most important thing is nanner control. PLEASE DON'T GET HIT BY HER DSMASH!!!
 
Player-1

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,186
Location
Rainbow Cruise
I like overwhelming ZSS with bananas in this MU until I get to kill percent move range then I started camping hard to avoid the dsmash. Her aerials are great kill moves, but they stale really easily since she has to use them a lot to get damage anyway. Her kill moves are super predictable IMO (namely her side-b). Any time she SHs away she will use her side-b. Any time she dashs away from you she will pivot side-b, any time you are on the ledge she will side-b. Her aerials are pretty easy to avoid unless you get dsmashed which is why I like to camp at high percents to avoid the dsmash. Just punish everything OoS, especially her side-bs. In this MU, I feel it is best for ZSS to just toss 2 armor pieces off of the stage and keep one for herself otherwise I think Diddy can get good control over one of the armor pieces. Ban brinstar in this MU, ZSS's dsmash is amazing here along with her side-b, the stage sets you up for so much juggling for her and stuff. My 2nd ban would be YI, you get killed off of the sides earlier on this stage and she has great platform control which takes up most of the stage. She can also wall jump with her down-b to help her recover. CP FD if you can or SV. PS1 is a good stage for both characters along with BF so both of them are okay.
 
VonDarkmoon

VonDarkmoon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
92
Location
Santa Rosa, CA
I've also seen in other MUs against zero suit you can actually jump over her Dsmash, since the hitbox doesn't actually cover her whole body. i believe you need to be at about the height of her head and then you possibly get a free aerial. I don't really know the MU that much, just something i've observed.
 
Zero

Zero

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
5,825
Location
ワイヤード
This matchup sucks for ZSS, just keep a banana at hand and punish her landings from 100m away, then follow up.
 
DFEAR

DFEAR

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
5,582
Location
:190:
just recognize/respect/punish her sideb/dsmash nuff said really bout the matchup. just dont fall for bairs or upair traps etc
 
Player-1

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,186
Location
Rainbow Cruise
Zero said:
This matchup sucks for ZSS, just keep a banana at hand and punish her landings from 100m away, then follow up.
Click to expand...
you do realize gravity affects bananas right? It's not like ****ing TLs arrows that fly the whole entire way of FD before they fall down. This is one of Diddy's main weaknesses, although none of ZSS's moves outrange a banana throw :)
 
Kantrip

Kantrip

Kantplay
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
10,188
Location
B.C. Canada
This mu gives me trouble. Getting up from the ledge was hard without a nanner and so was approaching her with the lead. Also, dem mindgames -> dsmash....
 
Sails

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA
I've had quite a bit of experience with this matchup, and I have issues with it. I feel like it's probably in Diddy's favor, but I can't seem to work any magic myself...
 
Count

Count

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
2,454
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
I'm comfortable enough with this matchup to do a writeup, and since nobody has done one yet I will. Would people want that? If not I won't waste my time. The deal is that somebody has to write ddd bc I dunno that one as well lolz.

:phone:
 
Vega4

Vega4

Smash Ace
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
552
Count said:
I'm comfortable enough with this matchup to do a writeup, and since nobody has done one yet I will. Would people want that? If not I won't waste my time. The deal is that somebody has to write ddd bc I dunno that one as well lolz.

:phone:
Click to expand...
Just do it, ADHD will write for you the DDD stuff (at least, I hope so xD).
 
Count

Count

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
2,454
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
Alright, Zero Suit Samus:

To start off, we win this matchup 55-45 or 6-4 imo. Zero Suit Samus struggles against shields, and we have the best in the game.

Zero Suit Samus specific stuff: (not necessarily matchup specific) Try not to spotdodge up close against Zero Suit unless you read a grab or spotdodge her grab on reaction. Zero Suit Samus, moreso than a lot of characters, thrives on reads of dodges etc, spotdodge is especially punishable since Zero Suit cannot really punish shields as is. Finally, understand that one hit from Zero Suit could lead to an entire stock.....so if you're ahead, keep focused. If this happens to you and you're behind, understand that she is somewhat of a momentum based character and that you can still win that game.

Matchup stuff: Zero Suit Samus struggles more against the 'adhd setup' than most characters. She has to take a huge risk to try and get in, and nothing she can do to get in is safe. You want to be in a specific zone against Zero Suit Samus, where you're far enough away to avoid her dsmash/side b, yet close enough to where she is in your range for a banana toss. Our fair beats about everything she has as well as aerial side b (be careful with the side b's as you could eat a zss side b, haha) Also, be vary of trying to shield grab Zero Suit Samus's back air. A whiffed shield grab on a well spaced back air often leads to being punished. If Zero Suit Samus is on a platform above you, scooting aruond in your shield as she bounces around can be very frustrating for her/make her feel unsafe. Watch Gnes vids for the scooting if you must. Finally, upthrow is good in this matchup as it puts Zero Suit Samus in an uncomfortable position trying to land against us. Also, a reverse glide toss can be an excellent tool if you find yourself getting too close to Zero Suit Samus' danger area (area where side b/downsmash can smoosh us!)

Zero Suit Samus recovering/on the ledge: A dribbled banana in front of you as Zero Suit is recovering is your bread and butter as far as punishing her recovery goes. Even if she doesn't land on your banana, you limit her options so you can properly predict another option. By the same token, grabbing the ledge with a banana in your hand can sometimes lead to a punishment as well. Sh, throw the banana can lead to a side b, fair. or grab. At the end of the day, these things can only limit her options and you as the player have to make the proper read. However, doing this as she recovers can make your reads easier. A banana in front of you when ZSS is on the ledge does the same thing. Zero Suit only has a few options off the ledge now and you can often punish with a fair or a bait/shield grab.

Our recovery: Recovering low against ZSS seems like a good idea most of the time. Obviously, you have to mix your recoveries up, but ZSS lacks the multi-hit move to gimp us from below that some have and additionally it is risky for her to go low. However, be wary of ZSS snapping the ledge or waiting for you on the ground with a charged downsmash. Recovering high has to be done still, of course, as you don't want your recovery to get too predictable. ZSS is very good at punishing you as you recover high, as she can frame trap you with uairs or read your landing for a downsmash, or even go up and get you for a bair. When your recovering high just make sure to be unpredictable and use all your options (side b, air dodge, b reversal, ff aerial, etc) ZSS is very good at punishing us as we land.


Summary: Play smart, limit her recovery options, be patient and make ZSS make mistakes. If you do these things you'll find success in the matchup. Remember that ZSS has difficulty getting in on us, and don't panic if ZSS gets a long combo off for a stock.

Here are good videos to watch of the matchup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTEABashs6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd4D91cm5ZE

Sorry for the long writeup, any corrections or questions or any additional suggestions let me know!
 
Vega4

Vega4

Smash Ace
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
552
Thanks for the advises and the vids. I think that watching one or more vids of the match up being good played by a Diddy main is a great way to learn the match :)
 
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