Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #8 - King Dedede

Sails · Jun 5, 2011

Matchup Ratio: +2

Important Posts:

Technical_Chase said:
We lose MUs when the following happens:

1. We lose the ability to Chaingrab, or the oppotunities to are limited.

Click to expand...

2. We are forced to approach.

Click to expand...

3. We're used as material for combo videos.

Click to expand...

4.We're forced to use our recovery.

Click to expand...

5. Our ability to use aerial combat has been compromised.

Click to expand...

How does Diddy stack up?

1. We can Chaingrab Diddy but honestly this shouldn't be happening much. If Diddy keeps bananas around or in his possession it makes CGing him hard. In a lot of cases I end up getting forced to B-Throw which does good damage but its not a CG.

2. Yeah we kinda have to approach here. Waddles Do little justice in this MU honestly. Diddy's Bananas do a great job of making us approach/controlling our movement.

3. Yeah this is definitely true here. Bananas, tilits and follow ups from reading our DI rack up the damage really quick here. Yeah Diddy can't kill DDD outright for a long time but its somewhat nullified by the fact thay we're combo bait.

4. Diddy doesn't really exploit this very well being a ground based character. He can make it hard to return to the stage yes but we can still get back on without having to use Up-B in many cases. Its possible though, so we do have to be careful here.

5. Diddy can somewhat control our movements with Bananas and Peanuts to make punishing us easier. We can get around this but it requires patiences, well timed insta throws and Powershielding. If we keep trying to approach from the same spot, we'll get shutdown. Diddy can pretty much wall the area around him.

So in short Diddy exploits quite a few of our weaknesses. We're not completely boned due to the fact that we're really fat, and we can gimp Diddy. Damage is something we're not going to be too focused on. Its a fact we're going to eat a lot of it here. DDD just has to ignore it and get you off the stage where you're most vulnerable.

DDD beating Diddy does requires the DDD to make fantastic reads and generally outplay Diddy though. We have to really capitalize when you screw up as Diddy usually profits pretty well off even a minor punish thanks to bananas.

Stages: We pretty much lose off most Static stages like FD, BF, SV, YI. Lylat is our best option as a neutral right now and you guys will definitely ban that so its REALLY hard to take Game 1. We'd probably just go for BF after Lylat and then SV.

Obviously we're banning FD. I dont see how a Diddy main will ever get to play on this stage in tournament against something that isn't a Falco or ICs

If you ban Rainbow, we'd probably go for Delfino (low ceilings at times, constantly changing stages, walkoffs!) or Siege. Brinstar is bad for us..we're not CPing this ever.

PS2 is also good for us though most DDDs are afraid to try this stage for whatever reason.

Halberd is also solid for us since Up-Tilt kills earlier here but we have better options as a whole.

Luigi player said:
I think Diddy can really **** D3 if he camps really hard and/or approaches really hard. You have to either be all over his face or away and make him come to you (of course camping is the much safer option and both are dependant on the situation).

You have to watch ouf for his grab and bair mostly. If you're at ~110 % watch out for his utilt. If he doesn't gimp you and you play really safe D3 should have trouble KOing you. Diddy also has trouble KOing D3 of course too though. D3 really lives forever...
If he's offstage try to pressure him there and edgeguard him (with bananas/aerials/or just wait for his landing). D3 is really slow in the air and he can't do much besides maybe inhale (watch out), bair, fair (should be difficult to hit with), or just airdodge (his fast fall speed really helps him to avoid his opponent).

If you have trouble hitting him because of his spotdodge don't stop camping (this is mostly if you have the lead or have a small % disadvantage/or just enough time to camp), it's much more difficult for him to come to you and he pretty much has to approach (and probably get's hit by many peanuts and bananas on the way). Sometimes sideB can be really good.

Watch out for his grab... (have bananas in the way(in front of/behind you)/try to not get grabbed if D3 can CG you through the whole stage/on a wall or walk off)

Stages to Utilize Against King Dedede:

Neutrals - Smashville, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island
Counterpicks - Smashville, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island
Bans - Frigate, Delfino, Castle Siege

For more intricate help with this Matchup, please be sure to read the thread, and feel free to ask any questions not answered in it.

[Collapse="Original Post for Posterity"]

Tell me, Mr. Anderson...
What good is a down throw...
If you're able to trip?

It is important that you read this! Every first post by a user in a Matchup Thread is encouraged to have at least a couple of sentences of information, alongside a ratio. Posts may not be considered for ratio and summary solidifying without these from the poster at some point in the thread, and keeping them towards the beginning helps keep discussion tidy. You have two weeks to share information that you feel is helpful in the Matchup, as well as debate with others. Compelling arguments are a must people, I expect any joking and trolls to be at a minimum.

Ideas for discussion...

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Diddy's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-

Note: This Matchup has been discussed in the past. If you wish to pull content from previous discussions that are still relevant in the current Metagame, then feel free to do so. This includes posts that are both yours and not yours.[/Collapse]

Kantrip · Jun 5, 2011

-thread is dead until it gets fancied up like all the other ones-

You can outcamp a Dedede. Avoid grab, it's mean. Bananas are good as always.
Yay input!

-waits for protips-

I think it's +2 for Diddy also.

Schwa · Jun 6, 2011

The advantages D3 has in this MU are killing early, living longer than Diddy and the ability to gimp Diddy.
The key in this MU is to make D3 approach, because all of his approaches can be punished. Diddy can limit D3 in the air by throwing naners up and from there Diddy can punish their reaction with aerials( for example a well spaced F-air punishes their instant throw).

I usually ban Halberd or Castle Siege, because D3 kills early in Halberd, and he has a walkoff CG in Castle Siege.

As for CP stages, BF, SV, FD, Picto, and YI work fine.

Luigi player · Jun 6, 2011

I think Diddy can really **** D3 if he camps really hard and/or approaches really hard. You have to either be all over his face or away and make him come to you (of course camping is the much safer option and both are dependant on the situation).

You have to watch ouf for his grab and bair mostly. If you're at ~110 % watch out for his utilt. If he doesn't gimp you and you play really safe D3 should have trouble KOing you. Diddy also has trouble KOing D3 of course too though. D3 really lives forever...
If he's offstage try to pressure him there and edgeguard him (with bananas/aerials/or just wait for his landing). D3 is really slow in the air and he can't do much besides maybe inhale (watch out), bair, fair (should be difficult to hit with), or just airdodge (his fast fall speed really helps him to avoid his opponent).

If you have trouble hitting him because of his spotdodge don't stop camping (this is mostly if you have the lead or have a small % disadvantage/or just enough time to camp), it's much more difficult for him to come to you and he pretty much has to approach (and probably get's hit by many peanuts and bananas on the way). Sometimes sideB can be really good.

Watch out for his grab... (have bananas in the way(in front of/behind you)/try to not get grabbed if D3 can CG you through the whole stage/on a wall or walk off)

It's probably +2 for Diddy...

ZTD | TECHnology · Jun 6, 2011

We lose MUs when the following happens:

1. We lose the ability to Chaingrab, or the oppotunities to are limited.

2. We are forced to approach.

3. We're used as material for combo videos.

4.We're forced to use our recovery.

5. Our ability to use aerial combat has been compromised.

How does Diddy stack up?

1. We can Chaingrab Diddy but honestly this shouldn't be happening much. If Diddy keeps bananas around or in his possession it makes CGing him hard. In a lot of cases I end up getting forced to B-Throw which does good damage but its not a CG.

2. Yeah we kinda have to approach here. Waddles Do little justice in this MU honestly. Diddy's Bananas do a great job of making us approach/controlling our movement.

3. Yeah this is definitely true here. Bananas, tilits and follow ups from reading our DI rack up the damage really quick here. Yeah Diddy can't kill DDD outright for a long time but its somewhat nullified by the fact thay we're combo bait.

4. Diddy doesn't really exploit this very well being a ground based character. He can make it hard to return to the stage yes but we can still get back on without having to use Up-B in many cases. Its possible though, so we do have to be careful here.

5. Diddy can somewhat control our movements with Bananas and Peanuts to make punishing us easier. We can get around this but it requires patiences, well timed insta throws and Powershielding. If we keep trying to approach from the same spot, we'll get shutdown. Diddy can pretty much wall the area around him.

So in short Diddy exploits quite a few of our weaknesses. We're not completely boned due to the fact that we're really fat, and we can gimp Diddy. Damage is something we're not going to be too focused on. Its a fact we're going to eat a lot of it here. DDD just has to ignore it and get you off the stage where you're most vulnerable.

DDD beating Diddy does requires the DDD to make fantastic reads and generally outplay Diddy though. We have to really capitalize when you screw up as Diddy usually profits pretty well off even a minor punish thanks to bananas.

Stages: We pretty much lose off most Static stages like FD, BF, SV, YI. Lylat is our best option as a neutral right now and you guys will definitely ban that so its REALLY hard to take Game 1. We'd probably just go for BF after Lylat and then SV.

Obviously we're banning FD. I dont see how a Diddy main will ever get to play on this stage in tournament against something that isn't a Falco or ICs

If you ban Rainbow, we'd probably go for Delfino (low ceilings at times, constantly changing stages, walkoffs!) or Siege. Brinstar is bad for us..we're not CPing this ever.

PS2 is also good for us though most DDDs are afraid to try this stage for whatever reason.

Halberd is also solid for us since Up-Tilt kills earlier here but we have better options as a whole.

This is easily +2 for Diddy. All you need to is camp..lol

I'll post more later..just thought I'd toss a tidbit of info out.

Player-1 · Jun 6, 2011

This is easily +1 if the D3 knows the MU, no way it's +2. The two biggest advantages D3 has over Diddy is living long and gimping. D3's bair is a perfect gimping move to edgeguard us, not only does it hit you out of side-b easily, but it kills early out of barrels.

@TC, bananas hurt obviously, but you can super armor the trip animation if you time it right. Yup, you're forced to approach, but the Waddles have their use. They can block bananas, not much for trying to camp Diddy, but it helps a whole lot for combo breakers. Actually, he can make D3 use his up-b easily. D3 doesn't autosnap onto the ledge that easily so you can use dtilt and jab when he gets close, banana plucking bananas off stage while D3 is recovering is a HUGE burden for him. If he air dodges to catch it then you have enough time to fair him.

I really like side-b in this MU. The flip can wreck D3 since he's so fat and easy to grab onto. Seriously if you're ever vsing a fat char, wario, or yoshi and sometimes snake. Try spamming side-b and hitting them like 4 times with it. You'd be surprised on how much that worked. Most D3's will just try to stay in the air and mix up with their jumps when they go down for an inhale, bair, or spotdodge to grab. I like to throw bananas in the air to mess with them, D3 having a banana doesn't do much most of the time since he's pretty bad with them, but he can do some stuff with them with CGs and z dropping. Plus you still have another banana to wreck him with and that's really all you need. If he does spotdodge/bair/inhale while falling into you instead at a distance then Usmash is a perfect move for this. Usmash can juggle D3 pretty easily.

I should get vids of me vs 4god, he knows this MU really well and IMO he's the best D3 at this MU, and I also consider this one of my best MUs as well so having two people play who know the MU is always good to watch.

@TC again, as far as stages I really don't like FD in this MU. My personal favorite is BF. The stage is smaller which hurts D3 IMO. You can slip on a banana while CGing even if it's on a platform because D3's head will still slip him, so small stage + bananas still interrupting CG=great stage. If D3 lands on the platforms you can still wreck him with upward banana tosses and fairs/bairs. 4god always tries to strike me to FD and bans BF as well.

I usually ban Siege, Frigate, or Delfino in this MU. Delfino is one of my personal favorite stages so I usually don't ban it ever, btw Diddy can wall infinite with bananas as well an D3 is so far that if he tries to follow you to a wall and you have 2 bananas out already then it's actually pretty easy. As all the Diddys know, I <3 RC and don't ever ban it. Even against D3 I'm not really worried about the stage. Diddy can avoid D3's wall CG on the boat by just camping the left side, even if D3 gets a grab from the right side there's a very small slope that allows characters like Diddy to break out. Surrounding yourself wih bananas also help a lot and if he lands in front of you wrong then you can combo him with the wall as well. The air part of the stage you just stay below D3 and you can do a good amount of damage on him and the top part of the stage you always have a banana with you and stay on the side with the slope so D3 can't CG you off screen or into a wall.

ZTD | TECHnology · Jun 6, 2011

@P1:I'm in agreeance with you in jusg about everything you said.

It might be lack of exp vs top lvl Diddys. Ive played AZ but that's about it.

But the reason I think its a solid +2 is because...what are we going to do if you keep camping us? lol. I mean yes we can do some nasty things if we get in but in my experience vs AZ its sooo hard to actually get inside to do that. Yes, we can gimp and Bairs 15 frame duration makes it really good for doing that but we have to actually be in that position first.

Oh and I just dont like FD period here. Even a Banana just sitting there can be dangerous. And here its just DDD, Diddy, one giant platform and 2 Bananas.Maybe if we actually had options with them I wouldnt be so adverse to it but yeah we're terrible with Bananas..lol There's no where to run here (typical anti FD argument but still lol) . Diddy already does a good job pressuring us as is. I think platforms are always a better option. Because at least if a Banana isn't in diddy's possession it doesnt have to be in our way when we're trying to CG. The timing of the CG on Diddy is already annoying (not an issue if youve really practiced it but a lot dont have the timing down perfectly)

Everything else I can respect.

Player-1 · Jun 6, 2011

The only way D3 can really get into a camping Diddy is from the air and mixing it up b/w inhale, spotdodge, and bair. On a stage like BF he can't really even do that as well since the platform is in the way and he is actually better off approaching from the ground because since the stage is so small and his grab range so large you're better off just running into diddy and trying to powershield his banana to get a grab, at least that's the way I see it.

Vega4 · Jun 10, 2011

Thanks for the advises.

It's really sad not having more advises from ADHD, Gnes and Felix in these match-up threads...

Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #8 - King Dedede

Sails

Smash Ace

Kantrip

Kantplay

Schwa

Smash Apprentice

Luigi player

Smash Master

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology

Player-1

Smash Legend

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology

Player-1

Smash Legend

Vega4

Smash Ace

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