ZTD | TECHnology
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CHARACTER DISCUSSION #1: METAKNIGHT
BBR MU Chart says: -2
DDD Boards say: 30-70 in MK's favor.
Can we Chaingrab? No
Amazing speed, priority, range, a godly recovery and the ability to pressure and gimp us very well makes this bat a tough opponent. Can the King overcome these obstacles in high level play?
Information we need:
-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-King Dedede's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-
Notable Posts:
BBR MU Chart says: -2
DDD Boards say: 30-70 in MK's favor.
Can we Chaingrab? No
Amazing speed, priority, range, a godly recovery and the ability to pressure and gimp us very well makes this bat a tough opponent. Can the King overcome these obstacles in high level play?
Information we need:
-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-King Dedede's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-
Notable Posts:
Skel'D3 said:This MU is very difficult.
We have to stay on the ground and punish with the Ftilt / Grab / Pivot Grab and Dtilt. I think our ground game can rivalize but be careful to don't be punish of using so much Ftilts. Grab will be our friend in the ground to punish Mk moves.
In the air, I personally see a BIG advantage for Metaknight, The Dair camp is just horrible and sometimes, we're combo so hard by his Uair... Just be carefull in the air and punish when you can punish. Our better aerial will be the Bair I think.
The tornado is also a big problem, it's pretty difficult to punish when the MK don't use his nado randomly. Personally, when I see a Tornado coming, I'll punish them with the Dtilt.
We can punish it with : Dtilt / Utilt / Dsmash / DownB ( Lol ) but you really to be attentive to punish this ****.
In the edgeguard, it's just **** for metaknight. Try to don't be edgeguard, MK can punish us so well with his moves.
For me, this MU is all about patience, don't loose patience and try to punish all metaknights errors.
Our advantages are :
- Our Weight, DDD is fat and he can survive long time.
Ban Brinstar / RC / Delfino.
I personnaly like neutral stages vs Metaknight.
30-70 for MK
YarsRevegerson said:Despite how much I love them, Waddles shouldn't be used much in this matchup due to, Metaknight mostly being in the air, Waddle toss is slow as balls and more than likely can be punished by Nado with ease...The only upside is the chance to get a Gordo...But if Metaknight's off stage I'd rather do something else rather than hope for a Gordo (or toss a Doo and nick him at high percentages) STAY ON THE GROUND. Also, STAY NOT ABOVE MK. Dedede's ground game is waaaay better than his air in this particular match-up, F-tilt proves its worth here. It also helps freshen moves, something most people would appreciate.
Techchasing is REEEEEEAL important in this match-up, I've been taking the time to learn where and how far MK rolls/tech rolls, and seeing as one of our best punishes is Pivot grab, learning to get the most out of our grab's important. Another good punish is Inhale, it does a decent amount of damage, and can get the pressure off. Also, as much as I'm sure anyone would like to edgeguard MK, you have to be smart about it, unless you like getting killed in a stupid way.
Personally, I ban Brinstar, only because I feel much more comfortable with the extra space RC gives me, plus, with the parts with lower/closer blastboxes beneficial to us as landing the kill is somewhat easier on the stupidly fast bat. I'd probably CP to a more neutral stage, though, one that's easier to recover on Vs. MK (i.e. NOT FD)
Matchup is godawful, 70:30 easily.
Quick question, from what I've read, suicide is no longer in Dedede's favor using the unity ruleset, is this true?
Tech_Chase said:I merged your posts together. Please avoid double posting. Just edit your latest one if you have more to add.
Oh I see some MKs lurking...
Anyway this is what I think of the MU:
This matchup is just bad. There is no way to get around it. In order to win this, you have to play safe and patiently the entire match. You can't rush in blindly and you pretty much have to outplay the Metaknight pretty severely the entire time. We're not helpless but this MU is bad.
This MU has to stay on the ground at all costs. We go about even with Metaknight in grounded combat we just have to make sure we get around a few things. MK's best grounded tools are Down-Smash, F-Tilt, D-Tilt, Grab and Forward Smash/Dash attack in moderation. Be very careful about punishing his ground moves because one mistake can give MK the edge he needs to put you in the air and putting a serious hurting on you. Seriously there are a lot of times where you should just back off and reset the spacing instead of getting greedy. You have to play INCREDIBLY safe here. And you can't stay in your shield for too long or spotdodge too much either. I'm going to tell you now:
MASTER POWERSHIELDING
It is essential for this MU. A lot of MKs moves perfectly spaced still are too hard to punish if they hit our shield. Powershielding gives you sooo many more opportunities for punishment. You want to grab MK whenever you can. Grab will be your best friend in this MU. If a MK badly spaces a move on your shield: Grab his *** unless you can kill with Up-Tilt or land a good Bair. B-Throw will be very valuable in this MU because of the raw damage it does. When it gets to the 13%-14%, use Forward Throw or Down Throw here. Tech chasing is honestly overrated here. I'm good at it but I don't get greedy about it. If I have a fresh B-Throw I will usually use that but an F-Tilt out of Down Throw or just a solid tech chase does help. If you're playing this MU correctly, this will go on for a while so you have time to figure out any habits they use when you Down Throw them. Remember just don't get greedy. Treat every grab like its precious.
If MK is perfectly his moves on your shield then F-Tilt for a quick punish or get out of there period. If MK is far away then start chucking Waddles at him. MK has to approach (unless he has the lead).
Hmm what else for this section..
Oh make sure you space everything well yourself or you will get hard punished. Throwing out reckless F-Tilts can get you Down-Smashed, Faired, Shuttle Looped or Tornadoed. I generally hate using Dash Grabs here because if I miss they can punish you with whatever they want. Pivot Grabs are better here. There is no reason to just jump into ****.
As far as the Air Game:
Avoid this scenario at all costs. Both of you in the air means MK will win. His moves are just way too fast and they have good range to boot. Being above MK is the worst situation you can be in because you open yourself up to all sorts of **** in the form of Up-Air, Tornado and Shuttle Loop. If you must use your moves make sure you space them. Fair and Bair use at maximum distance can help a bit. If MK is really close to you, you can Swallow him if you read him properly. I have Swallowed people out of Tornado AND Shuttle Loop. Swallow is a lifesaver in this MU but I'll get to that later. But in short, just avoid this scenario. If you get caught above MK trying to land on the stage, time your fast fall air dodges very well or use Down Air when you get the chance. If you can get enough horizontal distance from them Swallow helps if you know they're going to charge in.
Moves to Watch Out For:
Tornado - If MK is approaching you from mid distance be REALLY careful. If you recklessly use Up-Tilt or Down-Smash, they can retreat...and punish you with the same Tornado. Its gay. Dont let yourself get baited. If MK does this in really close quarters, put your shield up and tilt it in reaction to where he is trying to shield poke you. Sometimes they'll act like they're going to retreat just for you to drop your shield and then get you. When this happens, Up-Tilt or gtfo. Seriously rolling backwards and getting out of there is a good options. Don't get greedy. If you're trying to run away and MK chases you, you can Pivot Grab him out of the Nado. Its fun Swallow also helps if you catch them as they're starting it. Smart MKs will often throw out the move when you're trying to land. Just hover outside the range of it and wait for it to end. Also if MK uses Nado in the air and you're on the ground and hes a considerable distance above the ground when hes about to end it...DO NOT RUN IN. Its the lagless Tornado and he can react immediately upon landing. MKs love to bait people like this. Just throw a waddle and gtfo.
Shuttle Loop - In the air, you can Down Air MK out of the Loop if you see it coming. SL when you're both in the air is often times pretty telegraphed so this often times easy to spot. If you're REALLY good at this, Swallow is also an option. I would rather you all just avoid being in the scenario than trying to punish it. Sometimes you can't though and you just have to wait and throw out a move. If you're recovering though you're in a really bad spot. This move wrecks us off the stage if you put yourself in a bad spot. Avoid using Up B at all costs to recover and if you do, you have to mix it up. If MK knows what you're doing, you either going to lose your stock or take an absurd amount of damage.
Down-Smash - Don't get greedy here. If MK badly spaces the move punish it. If its perfectly spaced, retreat to mid distance. Seriously, the landing lag is so small..it'll look like you can profit and then here comes another Down Smash. Don't fall for that ****.
Forward-Smash - Same concept as Down Smash actually. Also this is what MKs use against people who spotdodge too much. So yes avoid that.
Down-air - A lot of MKs will try to Down Air camp us. Back air however can trade/beat this move if you use it correctly. Once again I would rather retreat than challenge MK directly.
Our Best Moves:
Grab - I pretty much stated the reasons already.
Forward Tilt - Its weak but it gives us damage for a quick punish. Some damage is better than no damage.
Up-Tilt - Our best kill move in this MU however don't get greedy and don't fish for it either. You can't force anything in this MU without getting punished hard.
Waddle Dee Toss - Hi, are you and MK far away from each other? Yeah, use this. He has no projectile. Just make sure the distance between you two is great. His dash grab is REALLY fast.
Swallow - This move will save your life in close quarters. The grab armor of this move has saved me countless times! Only use this move if you feel comfortable reading your opponent though. This is something you can't just bust out for the hell of it.
Back Air - Still a great move regardless. Avoid using this in direct air to air conflict. The move is great out of shield however and can beat Tornado if you position it towards the top (its hard though). If you can't land an Up-Tilt for the kill then start preparing for this move.
As far as my own personal strategy it is really simple. Pick your battles wisely, stay in mid distance and wait for MK to do something laggy or wait for him badly space moves. Play super safe and slow down the pace of the match. Ive said this at least 4 times but DONT GET GREEDY XD
Stages:
Ban: Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise depending on your playstyle. Most of us will get rid of Brinstar though. Both honestly they're both bad. I would actually rather fight on Brinstar tbh. Rainbow Cruise keeps us in the air and constantly on the move which is really bad. Brinstar is bad also but at least we can use the acid to aid our recovery and we can land our kill moves easier.
Counterpick: This is really a matter of personal playstyle. I would suggest Halberd, Lylat Cruise. Halberd gives us an much easier way of landing kill moves and they will kill earlier. Lylat is really good if you know how to use Platform Canceling effectively in my opinion. Plus keeping MK above you on platforms is also a perk. MK will try to stay in the air and bait you into doing something stupid here but honestly you have a lot of good options for using these. Auto Canceled Dairs rock here. And if MK tries to take you on the ground, its even pretty much.
Neutrals: Go for Lylat first. Ban Yoshi's first. The rest of the stages are all "meh" BF and Smashville are decent for us. I like Final Destination because I feel like we can live really long here and retreat better when things get hairy. Personal playstyle leans me towards Castle Siege. I guess if I had to list the stages in order from best to worst(IMO) it goes:
Lylat > FD >Siege >BF/SV> PS1>YI
I'll post more later even though I just wrote an essay...lol
Coney said:recover high and they can chase you up there and uair>tornado you high, killing you SUPER early
recover low and you waste your jumps, forcing yourself to upb into his shuttle loop again and again
it's best to mix it up between the two and always consider the option of recovering at the veeery height of your jump. learn the distance and practice it. if you can upb and minimize your falling time, you'll land on the ground without losing your invulnerability from your ascent. recover very low and upb at the perfect distance to just kinda slide on the ground rather than land on it
Junk said:d-throw doesn't put mk on the floor. mk can hold up and buffer ad into anything (f-tilt is common) and own you. you still have a frame trap but it's not very reliable... i would suggest pummel + b-throw in most situations.
