I can't let you do that sta...wait >.> WHO DA HELL R U?! Pit vs wolf mu discussion

OK! Lets get this ball rollin. Any discussion relevant to mu will be discussed here ratios at the bottom of your post dont post a ratio w/o specific relevant info. k thx.

relevant being...
advantages/disadvantages of stages
cp's
ban's
bread n' butter moves
Things to watch out for
How to approach it
things to keep in mind
etc. etc.





Go!

ALL MATCHUP THREADS WILL NOW BE APPROXIMATELY 2 WEEKS IN LENGHT. The ones that are finished early good. We can then move on. So work as quick as possible to get as many PoV as possible!! The faster you guys discuss the faster matchups will be done by me!!!!

And if u guys don't provide sufficient information to where i am comfortable in writing a summary if i have no prior knowledge myself. It won't be done till it has that sufficient amount. End of story. No exceptions. Unless i'm feeling happy-go-luckay(pun intended >3>)

YESSSSS! I've been waiting for this MU discussion for a loooong time. :D

edit: maybe we could get Seagull and some other Wolf mains in on this for their input?

pitskeyblade said:

YESSSSS! I've been waiting for this MU discussion for a loooong time. :D

edit: maybe we could get Seagull and some other Wolf mains in on this for their input?

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Hi Tara~!

I dislike playing because his projectile is irritating lmao.

I've played Yo, Fyre, and Luckay4Lyphe in tourney (As far as 's go).

can camp with arrows for a bit till feels like reflecting them. cannot reliably camp , but he can shoot lasers at when he is in the air or over the edge.

has 2-4 Fthrows into an Fsmash at 0% if I recall correctly on .

cannot ledge plank like most characters because of reflector and he needs to space it perfectly or be Dsmash'd at the edge.

should generally Bair 's shield continuously and force to be above him somehow. has problems when is below him because his options are severely limited and make him susceptible to 's continuous aerial moves like Uair/Fair. It's hard for to land a kill move on , but same can be said for .

I think wracks up damage quickly when he gets in and does the same.

I'd say the matchup is 50-50. Dunno why the boards list it as 's favor +1 to be honest lmao.

Me vs Luckay4lyphe from July: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNrigUosWyw

Personally i agree w/50-50 aka 0 aka even. The fact that unlike fox and falco wolf is heavy really makes a big difference in this mu lol. And the reflectors invinci properties are icing on the cake.

What's your opinion on counterpicks? Cuz on halberd/lylat wolfs typical counterpicks from what my friend told me from talking to you i think pit is better at. Particularly lylat. Halberd is debatable.

What do you think wolf would choose? What do you think would hurt wolf the most?

Hai, Joe! X3
Thanks for helping out. Namesearch ftw.

Kuro~ said:

Personally i agree w/50-50 aka 0 aka even. The fact that unlike fox and falco wolf is heavy really makes a big difference in this mu lol. And the reflectors invinci properties are icing on the cake.

What's your opinion on counterpicks? Cuz on halberd/lylat wolfs typical counterpicks from what my friend told me from talking to you i think pit is better at. Particularly lylat. Halberd is debatable.

What do you think wolf would choose? What do you think would hurt wolf the most?

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is ok on Lylat. 's top stages are Halberd, Battlefield, and Yoshi's Island in my opinion. Halberd is my personal CP, but I don't know how other 's do there.

Kain usually CP's Lylat. Choice would CP something completely different. has no real "bad" stages except like Frigate.

I'd say to choose whatever stage you feel most comfortable with because will probably be just as good as is on that stage lol.

I would NOT shark a because his Dair goes under the stage by a large margin. You will get spiked. Hence why I don't see why could be better on Halberd/Delfino.

pitskeyblade said:

Hai, Joe! X3
Thanks for helping out. Namesearch ftw.

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Lol. I just followed Kuro's link in the social, but I would've namesearched to here anyway .

Does wolf have anything special on rainbow cruise? How does he like to play there? Cuz ik pit can play pretty dumb there.


Hmm what do you other pit's think would be ban worthy? I think YI in this case...with battlefield a close second imo.

His aerial mobility is like 's so he has no problems maneuvering the stage. He doesn't do bad there, but he's not amazing there. He could platform camp a lot I guess. As long as it isn't then he will do fine on Rc.

I'd ban whatever the person likes. I like the three stages (BF, Yi, and Halberd) listed. I'd choose one regardless. You can ban one, but I'll choose one of the other two. Just ban whichever stage you dislike playing on the most.

Just read your above edit and thing is pit can still plank safe enough. He just has to do it right. It's the same as fighting zss w/her dsmash. But with the risk vs reward u better know what you're doing. Or else it isn't worth it. Though that's not really why i said halberd would be better. The large room gives us some nice mobility options and the low ceiling/walls help us just as much as it does you as well as making dair/upsmash kill earlier which helps in this mu imo.

I wouldn't think that our usmash would be able to kill Wolf as easy on Halberd as his usmash would be to kill us. I think his would be better cuz he's heavier than we are. I personally have problems with the Bair, jab, fsmash, dsmash, and lasers. As for stages, get rid of YI. Any stage we can't fly under limits us severely.

Kuro~ said:

Just read your above edit and thing is pit can still plank safe enough. He just has to do it right. It's the same as fighting zss w/her dsmash. But with the risk vs reward u better know what you're doing. Or else it isn't worth it. Though that's not really why i said halberd would be better. The large room gives us some nice mobility options and the low ceiling/walls help us just as much as it does you as well as making dair/upsmash kill earlier which helps in this mu imo.

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t8hqQo9nDY

Go to 5:16 for .

And like, 's Fair kills much earlier on Halberd. That's another reason I like it. Fresh Fair kills around like 125-130%.

pitskeyblade said:

I wouldn't think that our usmash would be able to kill Wolf as easy on Halberd as his usmash would be to kill us. I think his would be better cuz he's heavier than we are. I personally have problems with the Bair, jab, fsmash, dsmash, and lasers. As for stages, get rid of YI. Any stage we can't fly under limits us severely.

Click to expand...

Ik pit's FH dair and upsmash can be used if u anticipate the bair. Imo it comes down to like who can get in on who first and how long can they hold it. You can sdi fsmash

Eh ya in this mu i agree. But in some mu i find YI to be better. Like diddy, falco, and peach.

Seagull Man said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t8hqQo9nDY

Go to 5:16 for .

And like, 's Fair kills much earlier on Halberd. That's another reason I like it. Fresh Fair kills around like 125-130%.

Click to expand...

Lol interesting vid. Ya i understand that. I just believe the extra space compared to others would be helpful. Hmm idk which would be better halberd or bf. i guess it'd come down to preference. I'll test out both tomorrow at mah fest.

More or less agreeing with what's been posted so far. I don't think there are any stages that really shift the MU much, so it's probably best to go with personal preference, idk.

Pit's multihit attacks kinda suck against a Wolf that knows how to SDI. Uair and especially nair will get punished unless you use them to pressure Wolf from below a platform, sideB gets dsmashed on the ground, it's just not really worth it in most situations imo. Stick to arrows and the CG. Also, arrows on a recovering Wolf can do work.

I'll probably stop by later and say more, but I'm pretty confident that this MU is even.

so far everything is right. however, kuro forgot our dash attack kinda owns at halberd as well and can be true comboed from arrow which is why i like it. i would ban YI or CS. also, while not to the same extent as the other spacies, our jab, dtilt, and utilt do a good number on him because of his fall speed/weight (oh those low percent utilts). the other thing that is good for us is that while our fair isn't all that good in this MU, for some reason our ftilt seems to do good for spacing as well (probably because it beats his fsmash usually).

overall, i would CP wolf to like, FD, delphino (don't underestimate how dumb we can circle camp delphino with WOI), and mayb RC since we can be so gay there.

one of the most even MUs in the game IMO

Maharba the Mystic said:

so far everything is right. however, kuro forgot our dash attack kinda owns at halberd as well and can be true comboed from arrow which is why i like it. i would ban YI or CS. also, while not to the same extent as the other spacies, our jab, dtilt, and utilt do a good number on him because of his fall speed/weight (oh those low percent utilts). the other thing that is good for us is that while our fair isn't all that good in this MU, for some reason our ftilt seems to do good for spacing as well (probably because it beats his fsmash usually).

overall, i would CP wolf to like, FD, delphino (don't underestimate how dumb we can circle camp delphino with WOI), and mayb RC since we can be so gay there.

one of the most even MUs in the game IMO

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Bolded the parts, which confuse me.

1. We have shine to avoid multiple hits of something/get off of combo's.
2. Lol. I'm sure it clanks, but that's so unreliable cause 's Fsmash comes out fast and from a distance. It'd be smarter to shield it and then punish.
3. circle camping on Delfino wouldn't accomplish anything. We can reflect arrows and there is a LGL in place. Not to mention we can Dair you to your imminent death if you try to shark with Uairs.

The thing is with Wolf...

Pit has to play a little more safer against Wolf than you'd imagine. I'd have to pin this as a 50-50 if Pit didn't have an overall better offstage game, great camping that can't be stopped very easily, and superior CQC. Wolf at mid-range and in the air below Pit is Pit's worst problem I believe, what has been said already.

I think it's only slightly Pit's favor. Pit can not force himself to play CQC all day, but it certainly is better to grow a pair and run game on Wolf with some of Pit's juggling and attempt the kill moves much more often. I find myself doing worse and only killing Wolf at crazy high percents if I don't eventually start going for the kill toward 140. Whereas Wolf is possibly killing you at 150 all the time.

I think, after playing that Wolf guy at Genesis 2, Pain was it? I feel like Wolf v Pit is evenish, but it can slightly come out to Pit's favor.

I'll test the pit uptilt thing today seagull. Cuz i'm pretty sure pit should be able to continue with it anyways.

What joe said, shielding wolf fsmash is pretty much a free punish. And don't go delphino with risk of being water spiked. Matter of fact, don't try to gay this character by picking a certain stage, because it most likely won't work. Halberd is alright, but like seagull says, if we try to plank through the stage he can do that dumb dair on the ground and it spikes us. Since Pit is bad at meteor canceling, I'd advise not to do that. Rainbow cruise could be an option because of the rising part, but Wolf would win on the side scrolling part and probably the boat too.

Hated this matchup ever since I met seagull on wifi to playing him offline in tourney. Wolf has faster aerials so he will win vertically while he is below us and can juggle. He gets nice height from his two jumps as well. Our fair might reach as far as his bair, but it will clank most of the time and we might win sometimes, but the fact is his bair is much faster. Also, as you can see in the vid seagull posted, we can't just juggle him because of shine, sooo annoying. Best thing to do is punish his landing. To do this you pretty much have to learn to poweshield his bair wall, because we won't be getting in otherwise, he will outspace us with it on shield and then probably punish our attempts to punish with that super fsmash lunge. I don't like planking or camping vs wolf because he can dsmash the edge of the stage if you don't plank right and his shine reflects arrows. Gliding is also a bad option vs wolf because the blaster will take care of that.

So the best option in this matchup is to stay grounded, and be patient with his bair wall because that's what he will be doing most of the time trying to get a reaction out of you. fthrow x2 to fsmash works, but also fthrow to dtilt if you want to try to read a landing and punish in a different way. The one thing wolf doesn't have vs us is safe recovery. Get him offstage horizontally with a bthrow to fair, arrow his jump, arrow again for certainty which will force him to up b most of the time, then mirror shield for the gimp.

So in my opinion, he wins the air battle, its tied on the ground, and we win offstage and recovery. Annoying matchup, but 50:50. Just choose final destination, he can scar battlefield and smashville, spike us on halberd and delfino, he can use the platform better on yoshis and our recovery is worse there, never go ps1/ps2, castle siege is a bad stage, and rainbow shouldn't be legal anyway. If they ban FD then go frigate or lylat.

Krystedez said:

The thing is with Wolf...

Pit has to play a little more safer against Wolf than you'd imagine. I'd have to pin this as a 50-50 if Pit didn't have an overall better offstage game, great camping that can't be stopped very easily, and superior CQC. Wolf at mid-range and in the air below Pit is Pit's worst problem I believe, what has been said already.

I think it's only slightly Pit's favor. Pit can not force himself to play CQC all day, but it certainly is better to grow a pair and run game on Wolf with some of Pit's juggling and attempt the kill moves much more often. I find myself doing worse and only killing Wolf at crazy high percents if I don't eventually start going for the kill toward 140. Whereas Wolf is possibly killing you at 150 all the time.

I think, after playing that Wolf guy at Genesis 2, Pain was it? I feel like Wolf v Pit is evenish, but it can slightly come out to Pit's favor.

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You lost to Pane? Oh dear. wins 100-0 now.

Seagull Man said:

You lost to Pane? Oh dear. wins 100-0 now.

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I'm sure kryst won...he was one spot away from placing in the money LOL. But i'm assuming it was friendlies.

...

I NEVER said anything about winning or losing, I said PLAYING. Dear God. Read, Sea.

I won a majority of the friendlies we played, and he taught me a lot of stuff. He said that all of the matches that I beat him with one stock were basically matches that I was throwing away because of my habits, and as he corrected them, I got better and better. I two-stocked him a couple of times, and one time he two-stocked me.

That was the first time a Wolf player actually stood up and gave a lot of useful knowledge outside of just matchup knowledge. the guy is incredibly particular about detail and mindset. Like I said about killing until 200 and him killin us at 150, it aint a lie with this guy. Now, with OTHER wolves, I've had no trouble killing them that much. But I've yet to face one in bracket yet that's that competent.

The matchup is definitely our favor by a small margine, small enough to make it seem even at times. And that depends completely on the style of the opponents. The Pit should be using a long-rang, campy style with plenty of punishing and occasional rush in to mix it up, until high percents where Pit should be aggro on Wolf. Wolf should be spacing incredibly well with bair, mixing up with blasters in the air for the mobility switch (since yes, Wolf's mobility is great), and he should be catching Pit in some of his moves upon landing. Fsmash, Upsmash, and sh-fair are great moves to throw out against a landing Pit. Wolf is Sooooo good underneath Pit.

The thing is though... A lot of Wolf's moveset doesn't exactly force Pit into the air directly above him...

Krystedez said:

...

I NEVER said anything about winning or losing, I said PLAYING. Dear God. Read, Sea.

I won a majority of the friendlies we played, and he taught me a lot of stuff. He said that all of the matches that I beat him with one stock were basically matches that I was throwing away because of my habits, and as he corrected them, I got better and better. I two-stocked him a couple of times, and one time he two-stocked me.

That was the first time a Wolf player actually stood up and gave a lot of useful knowledge outside of just matchup knowledge. the guy is incredibly particular about detail and mindset. Like I said about killing until 200 and him killin us at 150, it aint a lie with this guy. Now, with OTHER wolves, I've had no trouble killing them that much. But I've yet to face one in bracket yet that's that competent.

The matchup is definitely our favor by a small margine, small enough to make it seem even at times. And that depends completely on the style of the opponents. The Pit should be using a long-rang, campy style with plenty of punishing and occasional rush in to mix it up, until high percents where Pit should be aggro on Wolf. Wolf should be spacing incredibly well with bair, mixing up with blasters in the air for the mobility switch (since yes, Wolf's mobility is great), and he should be catching Pit in some of his moves upon landing. Fsmash, Upsmash, and sh-fair are great moves to throw out against a landing Pit. Wolf is Sooooo good underneath Pit.

The thing is though... A lot of Wolf's moveset doesn't exactly force Pit into the air directly above him...

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You played a who has no experience and didn't even make it out of first round pools at Genesis...Also:


No need to mudsling in a mu thread seagull. Keep it civilized

Seagull Man said:

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No trolling in my matchup threads chuee

Constructive or out

Seagull, apparently you misunderstand. The man's only purpose is gameplay and habits. You don't need matchup experience with Pit after you've played mine for about 12-15 rounds, and he begins to read my arrow looping and glide habits. He taught me a lot, just being a smart player that uses Wolf.

The point is, you play TO GET MU exp., and get a handle on certain situations. Playing Choice or other pro wolves online is pretty good practice imo, but when you get to play someone who actually reads into player's decisions and such, and it's offline, you get an idea of what's wrong and right about a matchup regardless.

Anyways, if Pain's so "bad" then why the hell would they let him direct EC player choices for the Genesis 2 crew battle between West and East?

People who can't do, teach. You can have insane amounts of knowledge, but just not the ability to pull some of the stuff off so you spread it to other people who can.

Luckay4Lyphe said:

People who can't do, teach. You can have insane amounts of knowledge, but just not the ability to pull some of the stuff off so you spread it to other people who can.

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People who can't teach, teach Gym. LMAO!!! Sorry, I had to put that here if nobody else was gonna say it.

Oh snap, I didn't know that discussion leaders could edit posts :O that's so good.

All I'm going to say is that I'm confident that there is a noticeable skill difference between Krys and his opponent, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't learn from them and come to a somewhat accurate MU consensus. Although, I am very curious to this killing stuff, care to elaborate Krys? Personally, I find it easier for Wolf to kill Pit than the other way around, but not by a large margin.

I agree with Krys on Pit's need to get in on Wolf if he wants to get things done, because that's the main way he'll be able to force Wolf into a worse position that can be taken advantage of. However, I wouldn't say that Pit has a superior CQC game; they're pretty close to even imo. Wolf's jab is one frame faster, which counts for a decent amount I'd say. Wolf is just a little bit faster than Pit overall actually, and that really helps out, especially in the air.

Offstage, a good Pit should be causing a lot of trouble for Wolf if they didn't DI pretty high up. Wolf can go out and harass a recovering Pit without too much threat as well though imo, not to say that Pit is defenseless, but it's something he should watch out for (fairs/bairs, lasers to harass glides). Mirror shield should help this out a bit, and if you have an extra jump, trying to bait Wolf out there and dj dairing him might work. I haven't had much serious offstage experience with Pit, so can't say for sure, the last sentence was mostly theorycraft tbh :/

Either way, I'm still very convinced that it's even
Offstage: +Pit
Close range: Even
Mid range: +Wolf
Long range: +Pit (not by too much though)
Air: +Wolf

I basically have all the powers of a moderator except infractions lawl.

Also pits jab range is greater than wolfs though. And his inf is pretty damn good if pit confirms a shield(Jab should be spaced). Pit can easily just shoot arrows while inching towards the stage. Works for me all the time. Mix it up with falling mirror shield to WoI to other side, and glide low or FH dairs, or WoI divebomb and pit shouldn't have a problem at alllll offstage.

I agree with even but it seems like pit has the better tools i CQC or rather...more tools of equal merit. Wolf is def better mid range. And long range isn't even pit or wolf or even. It's kinda of grey zone type of neutrality really. But i guess you can say it's pit adv for long range simply cuz the wolf won't want to stay there.

COACH PANE METHODS OR PUT YOUR WANG ON CANDYS DINNER PLATE

Yee

So I hear Pit's generally like stages that he can fly under, so I'm guessing he doesn't care much for Yoshi's Island or Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2? Possible counterpicks for Wolf?

As for you guys, I'd say Frigate. The first transformation of that stage isn't kind to spacies in general.

Okay, I'll give the even for close range, but for mid range, I almost want to say that we can punish a lot of the stuff he does to us on ground. In the air, not so much. ^^;

I don't think conceding to even on this match up is that big of a deal anyways, a small advantage for Pit in my mind is all I need, but on paper it doesn't look as convincing. I think it's 50-50 most of the time anyways. Just sometimes Pit has the advantage during certain stages of the fight, which I guess isn't crucial enough considering a smart wolf player will learn ways around them (recovery, being above pit, dealing with the chain grab, and smart arrow play/ arrow looping shenanigans)

Ishieymoro said:

All I'm going to say is that I'm confident that there is a noticeable skill difference between Krys and his opponent, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't learn from them and come to a somewhat accurate MU consensus. Although, I am very curious to this killing stuff, care to elaborate Krys? Personally, I find it easier for Wolf to kill Pit than the other way around, but not by a large margin.

Click to expand...

The killing ... oh yes the killing...



See that? Wolf has one of those... on each of his fingers...
We have...one... on both sides of our cutlass/bow...

Our kill power is somewhat weaker than his, even if his moves deteriorate, fair, dsmash, sometimes fsmash, and even u-air if placed well near the ceiling can all reliably kill Pit. Fair is his most reliable imo considering wolf's advantage in the air to the side or below Pit. Above Pit, Wolf can't do much unless Pit's under a spikeable platform, hence the whole debate on planking.

We have bair as our most reliable kill move in percent being low, and we HAVE to keep throwing it out in order to even consider taking his stock before the late 150's+. Pane/Pain took my stocks at 150 reliably, while I had trouble keeping him below 200! It's just as simple as that. Wolf is pretty fat in the right hands in this MU.

So, in order for us to excel in the killings...mweeheheeheee...., we have to pressure him during the 140s-150s with smart arrow techniques, throws, or platform traps, which lead into bair or a fresh Fsmash (which is unlikely to be fresh thanks to Wolf players being so good at DI situations thanks to their character's weight)...

Bair is most effective when you've caught an opponent landing on a platform either by tech, tech rolling, simply landing, or hard landing/miss techs. With Wolf that's no exception. That's why I think Wolf's best stage might be FD or SV. Reliable staying power on both stages along with no worry of accidental platform abuse. Platforms help Pit more than Wolf I believe in this MU.

That's about it ^^;

It's like you forget shine exists. I'm never scared when is under me. His choices in moves are like...Uair, arrow, or Nair...LOL.

Dsmash shouldn't deteriorate cause it isn't safe to throw out. Fsmash is a punishment move. Bair is the safest kill move and dies relatively early from Fair. Being that he's about as light as ...

On paper is an amazing character, but that clearly isn't the case.

I got a lot of experience under my belt and while I dislike fighting them, I realize the matchup is even. You can say slight advantage all you want, but you overate ...

You say has advantage vs part of the fight, but so does whenever your offstage or above . Bad logic. Bad bad logic. On the ground their even. When either character is offstage it's the others advantage. When either is under who it's the others advantage. O_______O.

There are certain instances in which that statement is false. Like diddy or falco and peach. And it's not that he's bad at them. It just adds one less option. Which is always a bad thing. But in wolfs instance yes i completely agree.

Seagull Man said:

It's like you forget shine exists. I'm never scared when is under me. His choices in moves are like...Uair, arrow, or Nair...LOL.

Dsmash shouldn't deteriorate cause it isn't safe to throw out. Fsmash is a punishment move. Bair is the safest kill move and dies relatively early from Fair. Being that he's about as light as ...

On paper is an amazing character, but that clearly isn't the case.

I got a lot of experience under my belt and while I dislike fighting them, I realize the matchup is even. You can say slight advantage all you want, but you overate ...

You say has advantage vs part of the fight, but so does whenever your offstage or above . Bad logic. Bad bad logic. On the ground their even. When either character is offstage it's the others advantage. When either is under who it's the others advantage. O_______O.

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Agree with most of this stuff except a few things.

Pit has way more options than that while being under you. No @ weight. He's about as heavy as mario/diddy. which is significantly a difference from peach/marth.

@being under e.g. i can shoot an arrow and force you to either A) airdodge B) shine C) take it It's basically a tech chase in the air cuz if u airdodge i can then follow up according to which direciton u airdodge. When shooting we can tilt it at last second to affect return trajectory which leaves you open to an upair-->fair or upair string and if you take it...well you know we can do anything from that for the most part. Point being it really is kinda like a tech chase in the air in this istance.

Also pit doesn't use nair in mid air THAT much. It's a good mix-up and good in SH or if opponent is on a platform.

Kuro~ said:

I basically have all the powers of a moderator except infractions lawl.

Also pits jab range is greater than wolfs though. And his inf is pretty damn good if pit confirms a shield(Jab should be spaced). Pit can easily just shoot arrows while inching towards the stage. Works for me all the time. Mix it up with falling mirror shield to WoI to other side, and glide low or FH dairs, or WoI divebomb and pit shouldn't have a problem at alllll offstage.

I agree with even but it seems like pit has the better tools i CQC or rather...more tools of equal merit. Wolf is def better mid range. And long range isn't even pit or wolf or even. It's kinda of grey zone type of neutrality really. But i guess you can say it's pit adv for long range simply cuz the wolf won't want to stay there.

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This all sounds about right, I'd say. NJ needs more active Pit mains lol, I don't want to play secondaries :<

KageMurphy said:

COACH PANE METHODS OR PUT YOUR WANG ON CANDYS DINNER PLATE

Yee

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What does this even mean lmao

Krystedez said:

The killing ... oh yes the killing...

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I *might* have just died xD

Anyways, I more or less agree with your entire post. The only thing I'm not so sure on is how you land bairs, but you definitely know more about that than I do so I'm going to take your word for it Seagull does have a point with Wolf having options to get around some of Pit's stuff when being juggled, but imo it's not so bad. What Kuro said about arrows is true, but if you can't get an arrow in I'd probably say that punishing Wolf's landing is a better option.

For weight I just averaged around wherever he was around since D3 barely still can Cg him. Still lighter then most and dies around 135% from a fresh Fair.

Reflector is also a boss for projectiles (smirk).

And...still don't know what CQC means.

EDIT: CQC = close quarters combat. But I can see why that's an even playing ground.

Okay. First off. I have no problems with it being even. On paper, EVEN looks good. TO EVERYONE! But in my mind it's a slight advantage. I explained that bit of bias away, and it doesn't do you justice, Seagull, so get the fact straight that I don't mind people thinking it's even. In fact, my "bias" won't even take part in the chart when it comes out again. Thanks to this discussion, it's been very helpful to my decision on that.

I'll still respond to your points though, to show you where I disagree and agree.

Seagull Man said:

It's like you forget shine exists.

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There's a lot of things that you've forgotten in that case... Shine isn't the end all be all to make Wolf unapproachable in the air... And underneath Wolf is where he's most vulnerable. It'd be different if I was Wario, where all my moves on too short range to safely throw out, not to mention the fact that I have arrow (like Kuro has said.)

Seagull Man said:

Dsmash shouldn't deteriorate cause it isn't safe to throw out. Fsmash is a punishment move. Bair is the safest kill move and dies relatively early from Fair. Being that he's about as light as ...

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Just sayin' that those moves, when stale, are still better than ours. I think you're not reading my posts. But yeah, you're pretty mistaken on the last part, like Kuro said. Peach is a peach. Pit is a soldier.

Seagull Man said:

On paper is an amazing character, but that clearly isn't the case.

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Okay. That's supposed to be an argument? Because I wasn't proposing the argument that because Pit looks better on paper that it should be his adv... Again not reading.

Seagull Man said:

I got a lot of : pi----

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Stop. You mean luckay? That's it? KRYS WANT MOAAARRRRR

Seagull Man said:

You say has advantage vs part of the fight, but so does whenever your offstage or above . Bad logic. Bad bad logic. On the ground their even. When either character is offstage it's the others advantage. When either is under who it's the others advantage. O_______O.

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Pit offstage being chased by Wolf has one thing to fear; single jump chase to bair. That's it. And it's not even that hard to dodge. Wolf should not come off stage for any type of conflict unless he's already been put there. Offstage play, Pit has the advantage, whether or not he was put there or chasing you. Which is why I believe that Pit has the advantage for a good part of the fight, because putting Wolf offstage or baiting him out (even funnier) is easy and not anything to fear for Pit. that's where our differences lay.

I'm much more scared of when I'm in the air then . s Uair does 17% and kills so good...s air mobility is also close to s. Hence, why has a more difficult time with (And the stupid Cg).

I've played a few s: Fyre, HeyitsYo, that PA Rogue Pit (I think I spelled his name right), and Luckay4lyphe. is a pretty uncommon character, but so is . Lol.

Glad you can settle with even because the matchup chart annoyed me with saying is +1 and no on these boards even thinks to think that except you Krys lol.

I aim to change the discrepencies shortly.

Fyre is garbo so she doesn't count. Sorry Joe. Just played some Wolfs on wifi for practice. We probably shouldn't rule out Ftilt to possible arrow gimp/ other arrow shenanigans for a KO on Wolf. I did that quite a bit.

edit: of course, it could've just been the lag. Lol.
edit 2: we're assuming that KO'ing Wolf with Pit would be much easier horizontally than vertically due to Wolf's weight and Pit's lack of vertical KO power. This is just a rough estimate but I think with a fresh Usmash from Pit it would take til around 180-200% damage to kill Wolf (stage pending). Someone feel free to correct me. Versus say an Ftilt or a Dsmash with the horizontal knockback. Just throwing that out there.

Ftilt is great, but when are you going to use it at that range with that slothful startup time... That's the only problem with it really. It's a great mix up though.

Arrow gimps are more of the offstage criteria, and accounts for both when wolf is knocked off or is chasing you. Covered that area, a plus for Pit.

Dair can kill Wolf decently vertically at around 160 maybe if you keep it fresh. Actually that's a good plan, to use it to punish a potential reflector. Dair has so much range... Upsmash, like you said, it's really hard to kill with reliably with someone with weight like Wolf.

My experience with wolf lies in Pane/Pain (sp?!) offline, and Choice online. I've also played Lumi in friendlies offline, but hardly worth our salt here and now because that was in January I think...err... Winter. Can't remember.

If it was at School is in Session 4, then January. Me, Pane, and Kain were also there. :3