The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

JTsm said:

Why is pausing such an issue?

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You get grabbed by ICs.
They get into a chain grab rhythm.
You pause for a split-second.
Hilarity ensues.

BTW, half the previous page of the thread won't load, so I don't know if this got answered.

So, why not turn pause off? It's 1000 times easier to make a rule that states that pause should be off, just like we have a rule that states matches are 3 stocks 8 minutes. Anyway what happened, happened. Judo lost this time, we cant do anything about it, but we can prevent stuff like this happening in the future by replacing the pause rule with a better rule.

Pause should be on for emergencies like power getting cut (to the tv), interference from the audience, when clarification for a rule is needed and the TO is nowhere to be seen, etc.

People should just stop pausing for dumb reasons...

Flayl said:

Pause should be on for emergencies like power getting cut (to the tv), interference from the audience, when clarification for a rule is needed and the TO is nowhere to be seen, etc.

People should just stop pausing for dumb reasons...

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I hadn't thought about that. None of those have ever happened to me in a tournament before but still I can see why pause would be neccesary. Still, having pause off can also prevent mashing out of IC's grab to lead to an accidental pause (lol cheese) and stuff like the Judo incident from happening. :/ I guess theres no real way to make a rule against pausing without it causing trouble. If u turn pause off, blackouts and stuff controversy. If u leave pause on, u get judo and cheese incidents >.>.

Pause off > pause on IMO.

If there's a legitimate emergency, you have bigger problems than finishing the set.

@Doc King - lol so someone who disagrees with you and stands by it is annoying? lol what a lame
Anyways u misunderstood alot of the comments. Besides I think Nicole helps prove my point. Based off of her vids she has obviously gotten better and didn't lose to a pocket mk. She beat logics pocket mk. She is a great player!

Most of yall are crying about losing to pocket mks. Most of these pocket mks aren't even at a great skill level and they are still winning. Stop blaming it on the character and look at yourself.
Your saying mk doesn't have to kill he can time out. Well force him to approach. This means you have to get the first percent lead. Do whatever it takes to do that then u start camping instead. Sometimes the beginning of the game can decide the whole game. But this is how it is in many games. Again, MK is not the only character that strives of off playing real defensive and camping.

pocket MKs aren't the problem and I don't think anyone ever said they were

He initiated an Uair, there was nothing he could do to stop the hit. Judo landed the Upsmash Tipper. Only possible thing that could have been screwed up was SDIing down and teching the ground. He was at like 120 and that move kills fresh at 90 or something.

Though honestly if you are gonna enforce the pause rule in a situation like that, you shouldn't even have pause on. Why leave pause on if you would punish someone thats pretty much won already? Just have pause off. You can still pause with the home button if the setup has a wiimote. Its dumb to leave it on just because someone might turn off the TV.

Kewkky said:

This sounds like the same arguments made when Fiction/NinjaLink/Reflex/lain/Ally/ADHD/Junebug beat M2K in tourney for the first time (I might be missing one or two, and might have put a single extra Wario player up there, but my point still stands)... People go "Great player proves that we can beat even the best MK! Don't ban the bat and learn the MU like that guy learned it!", then about a year later that same person isn't winning anymore against the better MK mains. What makes you think you and Nicole are any different?

Also, I eat pocket MKs for breakfast.

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It's funny u mention that. Let's use junebug for an example. He beat M2k at ktar. I was there in person. He next played Anti and two stocked him the first game! Anti then won the next two games 2 stocks I think. U know why this happened. M2k didn't adapt. Anti did adapt. Junebug was doing the exact same thing over and over. Even I knew what he was going to do next. I even told him this after his game 2 but he didn't adapt or do anything different. Anti continued to 2 stock him game 3. Smash is a game about adapting and reading your opponent.

People are refusing to adapt and want their current playstyles to work. Since it isn't working against mk they just want him banned. Simple. By the way, the lucas matchup is simple and alot of people know it. U just don't approach. I play plenty of the gayest and campiest mks on wifi. I still win because smash is a mental game and u can always find a way. You just have to be real patient and don't get bent out of shape mentally.

lol. If you read people's comments on AIB. So many say "because of that bull! I am now pro-ban". The salt is what is driving this. Can't yall see it lol.

I agree people shouldn't stop listening and trying to find the truth Mekos, but at this point I think it have gone so far to pro ban it's not gonna matter.

I am pro ban but still I don't want people jumping on just cause they can, they shouldn't sheep.

If someone paused while Wobbles was chain-grabbing them, I assume they'd allow a regrab and he'd just wobble them. You don't really need to find a rhythm for it, it is REALLY easy.

And a stock loss for the offending player doesn't really work. What if I am on 200% 2nd stock and my opponent is on 0% last stock, and I get a gimp by pausing?

I still find it extremely stupid to have a "I lose" button on your controller. T_T

I'd mostly be for redo the match with how the stocks and %s were. Maybe a few extras depending on the situation...

Like for Judo vs Logic: Go to ps2, both at 1 stock, Judo at the % he had, Logic at the % he had right before the usmash. Should be fair enough. And since they had the replay and even a camera-recorded video of it that should really not have been such a problem.

Doc King said:

I can answer the bolded. Ally, M2K, Anti, Atomsk, Tyrant, Tearbear, etc.

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Are you ****ing serious? I was the best ****ing DDD in America for a very large span of my brawl career. I may even be him still to this day, but I don't care about having that title anymore.

I've beaten almost every single top player in America without MK, even going as far down in tiers to ****ing Luigi. I even ****ing beat Rain when he came over. In fact off hand the only TOP level player that I haven't ever beat in a set is M2K and I take games off of him with Wario, Diddy, Wolf and a **** ton of other characters you can think of.

If you really think Ally got to where he is right now because of MK you've either been living under a rock or you're just ********.

M2K was the most consistent to player in America before he ever even picked MK. He was the person that inspired me to take DDD seriously.

Anti was ALWAYS beating ADHD with Snake for a very long time.

I really can't believe that people like you who spit out bull**** such as this should have their opinion ever taken seriously.

Luigi player said:

Like for Judo vs Logic: Go to ps2, both at 1 stock, Judo at the % he had, Logic at the % he had right before the usmash. Should be fair enough. And since they had the replay and even a camera-recorded video of it that should really not have been such a problem.

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What about the time on the clock? What about stale moves? Positioning? Stage transitions? Item positions? What about the Pikmin growth/total? Charge levels of moves? Ledge grab total?

The better solution is just not pausing the game, because if we start making rules that reset the game upon a pause, what is to prevent someone from abusing it? I'm playing as Marth and my aerials are staled. My opponent is in kill percentage, but so am I. I find that my position is less than ideal [I'm on the ledge]. I pause the game; I am now in an incalculably better position due to breaking a rule.

Situation B, time is running out. There's less than a minute left, and I'm playing as DK. I cannot catch my opponent who has a slight percentage lead. I pause the game and get a new lease on life.

Situation C, I'm caught up on the emotions of the final moments of grand finals. I'm losing my composure and I've lost any and all momentum I had. I pause the button, and take a few minutes while the TO is called over to settle down. Once the match is restarted, I'm prepared to play properly.

What is Pikmin growth?

doc king you are an idiot and dont know ****. Please take your idiot nerd virgin loser garbage mouth elsewhere. Ty

I don't care what anyone says. I was there, I saw it, Judo won that match. All of that commotion got Logic what? A 4th place finish and two losses to a great Peach, a character that he supposedly *****. GGs

DeLux said:

What is Pikmin growth?

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How pretty they become once they get flowers. <3

-Ran said:

How pretty they become once they get flowers. <3

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Isn't that completely irrelevant though?

Well, outside of the fact that is you leave a pikmin alive too long it'll disappear or something iirc.

CJ, you missed the joke.

And I also think no pause whatsoever is better.
Ideally, something must be REALLY important to be worth interrupting a match.

Grim Tuesday said:

If someone paused while Wobbles was chain-grabbing them, I assume they'd allow a regrab and he'd just wobble them. You don't really need to find a rhythm for it, it is REALLY easy.

And a stock loss for the offending player doesn't really work. What if I am on 200% 2nd stock and my opponent is on 0% last stock, and I get a gimp by pausing?

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I think the pausing rule has a clause that if your opponent loses a stock to pausing you lose 2 or something.
But that would still be a problem if you're on 3 against your opponent's 1, though they would probably (not always) lose I guess.


Anyway Mekos, do you not realise, that perhaps there's only so much adapting you can do? I mean it's not possible for some characters, no matter how much "adapting" they do, to beat other characters.
Bad match-ups exist, tiers exist, some characters are better than others, and adapting won't get over that.
Perhaps ADHD is playing against MKs the best possible way Diddy can? Maybe any changes to his playstyle would hurt him in the long run?
You're repeating the same thing players in the past did, apparently Lucas goes even with MK you say? Let's add him onto the list of Snake, Diddy, Falco, Wario, IC, Marth, Pikachu, Olimar, D3, Lucario, DK, Luigi, Sonic, Mario, Yoshi, and Bowser of characters who supposedly had an even match-up with MK. Do you know what they all have in common? MK's learned how to beat them.
Really, you're claiming every non-MK main can't adapt, that's just silly.


As for the pause issue, in any situation where you'd urgently need to pause, you probably shouldn't be worrying about your smash game lol. Pause off > on.

In the situation pause is on, if you pause, that's your fault, and you should take either a stock loss or game loss because of it. That's needed for the integrity of the game.

Flayl said:

Pause should be on for emergencies like power getting cut (to the tv), interference from the audience, when clarification for a rule is needed and the TO is nowhere to be seen, etc.

People should just stop pausing for dumb reasons...

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If a tv goes out, the match has lost integrity anyway. If neither player turned it off, it should be a rematch if the game was still in progress.

Same goes for audience interference.

I'm not finding any sympathy for the player who needs to find a TO because he can't remember if his ledge grab limit applied to games that didn't go to time. But maybe it's just my heart is hard.

audience interference gets you 3stocked on your cp.....

Pause Issue:

Today said:

Only some will know what this mean..

Really long post by Daycia about the situation

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What really happened:
Confirmed:

• Judo had created an inescapable combo finisher with Sheik's UP+B, lagless landing to Up-Smash.
• Judo paused the game.
• Logic called Judo out on the whole thing even though everyone clearly had seen Judo had won from the game set match. (GAME! + replay data + stream data)

Unconfirmed:

• What frame Judo paused during the end-game kill process (needs stream data confirmation)... Has been said to have occurred either during the hit itself, right before the hit (where Logic was dead center falling into tipper Upsmash), or right after the hit...
• The ruleset's validity on STOCK LOSS UPON PAUSING THE GAME (read below).

Everyone has taken the ruleset cut-and-dry, black-and-white. THIS IS INCREDIBLY SHORT-SIGHTED AND CUTTING CORNERS, WHICH IS WHY WE NEED TO DISCUSS THIS. The rule on pausing states:

If one pauses mid-match, the person who initiated the pause loses their current stock.

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This under normal circumstances means that said player is required to jump off stage or let the opponent kill him or her for their stock. You can not just deduct one stock through some magical means or calculation.

In other words, PAUSING SHOULD NOT DQ OR INVALIDATE MATCHES OF PLAYERS (which is what happened to Judo, his whole match was invalidated) ACCORDING TO THE CURRENT RULESET.

So, if the following is true:

Player A already initiated a kill move
Player A's kill move hits
Player A accidentally pauses right then or afterwards
Player A's kill move no doubt kills them (CONFIRMED BY THE TO HERSELF BY TESTING ON A SEPERATE SETUP DURING THE DISCUSSION)

Then...

Player B is incapable of killing Player A for the auto-stock loss.
Player A can not kill himself before Player B died.

That means Player A could not have possibly finished the game with any other result then him winning. The TO deciding this factor by oneself at their discretion is not apart of this rule. It simply states stock loss, by what is assumed the most convenient means (KO or SD), by which there were no means because Logic was dead.

Again, there is NO rule stating that the player must be DQ'd that game by some arbitrary means other than the obvious "losing your stock" by means of self-destruct or KO.

The rule is vague, the verdict is wrong, and Logic moved on in bracket after losing to Judo, but then winning in a repeat of the entire game 3.

One thing is right. Judo won the first and real match.

Let's discuss this civilly, if you guys find my reasoning "stretching" or something, because in all honesty, the rule is just too vague. It wasn't fair then and it isn't fair now. If I was Daycia, I'd personally amend Judo and Logic's placing in some form in relation to eachother. Hardly ANYONE pressured her to give LOGIC the win, and nearly the entire venue was in agreement that this was unfair. Stream was even crazier. The point I'm making is, she made a decision that wasn't fair for her and her only to make. Period.

Okay, it wasnt so much that it's not fair that she made the decision herself so much as it is that there is overwhelming evidence that this pause rule was ineffectively enforced because it's in INEFFECTIVE rule as of now. It needs clarifcation or amending and that's final. What I said about changing their placements, I believe I would do for power ranking and skill level sake, and as a TO I'd feel obligated to compensate Judo at the VERY least for my mistake, even if it was the rule's problem.

judo won, logic is a salty *****hhhhhhhhh...i think the brawl community has a new cheese O_O
really though that was one of the most upsetting things i've seen in tournament and it's a wonder that a player would want to throw away their good name and reputation and lose TONS of respect from the community just to try to win $300 something dollars.

also no one should ever be losing to mk secondaries unless they play rob/ddd/some other characters that get butt-touched by mk. it isnt hard to learn the matchup and learn how to bait and punish. mk secondaries are not NEARLY as good as mk mains and people that play characters that have a 4:6 matchup with him or better should not be complaining about such things (or losing to them).

that being said, actual mk MAINS are a whole other story, but you guys already know i'm anti-ban anyways so i wont get into that.

Krystedez said:

Everyone has taken the ruleset cut-and-dry, black-and-white. THIS IS INCREDIBLY SHORT-SIGHTED AND CUTTING CORNERS, WHICH IS WHY WE NEED TO DISCUSS THIS. The rule on pausing states:



This under normal circumstances means that said player is required to jump off stage or let the opponent kill him or her for their stock. You can not just deduct one stock through some magical means or calculation.

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K so, we only can't deduct one stock magically, because there's no in game means to do this, so players suicide.
That doesn't change the intention of the rule, which is that pausing should never be used to advantage oneself.
Obviously this is very subjective, so to make it simple, you take a stock loss when you pause, or two if pausing causes your opponent to die.

In other words, PAUSING SHOULD NOT DQ OR INVALIDATE MATCHES OF PLAYERS (which is what happened to Judo, his whole match was invalidated) ACCORDING TO THE CURRENT RULESET.

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Not seeing why that's a problem, he wasn't forced to pause, the simple solution to this problem is....don't pause.

So, if the following is true:

Player A already initiated a kill move
Player A's kill move hits
Player A accidentally pauses right then or afterwards
Player A's kill move no doubt kills them (CONFIRMED BY THE TO HERSELF BY TESTING ON A SEPERATE SETUP DURING THE DISCUSSION)

Then...

Player B is incapable of killing Player A for the auto-stock loss.
Player A can not kill himself before Player B died.

In other words, the game was let finished, and people argued for 45 minutes about nothing, because:

There is NO rule stating that the player must be DQ'd that game by some arbitrary means other than the obvious "losing your stock" by means of self-destruct or KO.

The rule is vague, the verdict is wrong, and Logic moved on in bracket after losing to Judo, but then winning in a repeat of the entire game 3.

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Why is the verdict wrong may I ask? If someone quits the match even after they're to our knowledge guaranteed to win, should they still win? If someone suicides while their opponent is flying off the top, should they still win?

One thing is right. Judo won the first and real match.

Let's discuss this civilly, if you guys find my reasoning "stretching" or something, because in all honesty, the rule is just too vague. It wasn't fair then and it isn't fair now. If I was Daycia, I'd personally amend Judo and Logic's placing in some form in relation to eachother. Hardly ANYONE pressured her to give LOGIC the win, and nearly the entire venue was in agreement that this was unfair. Stream was even crazier. The point I'm making is, she made a decision that wasn't fair for her and her only to make. Period.

Okay, it wasnt so much that it's not fair that she made the decision herself so much as it is that there is overwhelming evidence that this pause rule was ineffectively enforced because it's in INEFFECTIVE rule as of now. It needs clarifcation or amending and that's final. What I said about changing their placements, I believe I would do for power ranking and skill level sake, and as a TO I'd feel obligated to compensate Judo at the VERY least for my mistake, even if it was the rule's problem.

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Ok, first thing's first, the pausing rule isn't that vague.
In this case, it's pretty clear that Judo loses according to the rule.

The rule isn't a problem, when it's pretty simply solved by not pausing, we don't need to care about people accidentally pausing, because that's their fault really.
Otherwise we'd have a page just on the pausing rule, describing what situations you can pause in, what the consequences are, etc.

Why does the smash community hate the enforcement of rules...

I suspect this Judo fellow had more charisma than this Logic fellow to begin with.

ghostbone said:

K so, we only can't deduct one stock magically, because there's no in game means to do this, so players suicide.

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Correct.

ghostbone said:

That doesn't change the intention of the rule, which is that pausing should never be used to advantage oneself. Obviously this is very subjective, so to make it simple, you take a stock loss when you pause, or two if pausing causes your opponent to die.

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That doesn't mean anything. Judo did not intend to use pausing to give advantage to himself, I can say that, and subjectivty of the matter aside, this is concerning the ACTUAL ABILITY TO TAKE JUDO'S STOCK OFF BEFORE GAME APPEARS. Game appeared before Judo could possibly do anything, AND Logic was dead garunteed.

Therefore, the pause rule CAN NOT be enforced; i.e.; "deduct one stock; player suicides", because it was impossible during the time frame.

ghostbone said:

Not seeing why that's a problem, he wasn't forced to pause, the simple solution to this problem is....don't pause.

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It's a problem because his match was invalidated, instead of looking at the possibility or impossibilty of him even being able to remove his own stock by conventional means. It's already been ruled that it was impossible for him to kill himself in the time frame between using his kill move on logic and "GAME" appearing on the screen.

ghostbone said:

Why is the verdict wrong may I ask? If someone quits the match even after they're to our knowledge guaranteed to win, should they still win? If someone suicides while their opponent is flying off the top, should they still win?

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It's wrong IN THIS CASE because the rule states stock loss, while Judo simply had his match invaliadated and a rematch was schedule, which is incredibly unfair and not anywhere in the realm of enforcing said vague rule in the FIRST PLACE.

ghostbone said:

Ok, first thing's first, the pausing rule isn't that vague.
In this case, it's pretty clear that Judo loses according to the rule.

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No, in this case, it's pretty clear that Judo loses a stock by means of SD or KO by submission according to this rule, and not magical means or invaliadation. No where in the rule does it say that pausing cases you to lose your stock via any other means, NOR does it say your match didn't count. The latter is the case in this matter.

ghostbone said:

The rule isn't a problem, when it's pretty simply solved by not pausing, we don't need to care about people accidentally pausing, because that's their fault really.
Otherwise we'd have a page just on the pausing rule, describing what situations you can pause in, what the consequences are, etc.

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It's a problem when their isn't amendments to said rule regarding situations such as this where it's clear the TO didn't have an easy decision based on the factors given to her, and simply did something completely unrelated to the rule on her own accord. Giving Judo the loss OR making him rematch Logic BOTH invalidate his win against Logic, instead of attempting to make him lose a stock, like the rule states.

TL;DR: Judo's match was invalidated, instead of his stock being at least attempted to being taken away. "Herp derp, I paused, I better go SD, oh look I can't, because my opponent is already dead, would you look at that! GUESS THAT MEANS I WIN LIKE IM SUPPOSED TO BECAUSE THE RULE DIDN'T COVER THE WHOLE "LOSE ONE STOCK" by some OTHER arbitrary means"

EDIT: I argued my reasoning for this, I guess if you want to make it black-and-white the rules should read

"If Player is to pause mid-match, they are to SD once, or, let the opponent take one stock from Player. If player pauses with one stock, that player has lost the round."

But it doesn't.

None of this was actually enforced and Judo just had to have his round invalidated and restart at game 3.

I think I'm going to go lay down now, I may think about this some more later, especially after seeing the stream footage.

I think everyone can agree that a rematch was not the correct resolution in any case. Judo either lost or he didn't.

-Ran said:

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/295968381

1:04:00
1:04:48 is when the pause occurs.

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Second hit was when the pause occurred I believe. Thanks for that Ran.

I think for the most part I might be letting this emotionally get to me so I won't be discussing this any further unless I can do it unbiasedly like I'm trying. Sorry if it seems like I'm taking this out of proportion. I know immediately what I would have done as TO but that's just me. I wouldn't advance Judo because I think he's a better player, or because I like him, I'd advance him because the GAME screen showed him as winner and the pause was not game-changing IN ANY WAY POSSIBLE.

That's my final say on it. What would have been done if Day had did what I just said. Would people disrespect her? Like seriously?

why didn't we just watch the stream to find out when the pause was like we had planned?

Rules are rules.

On the other hand, stupid rules are stupid rules. If we're just going to replay matches when the game is paused (lol) we should just turn pausing off and replay matches in case of emergencies (naturally with TO discretion). I watched the clip, Logic was ****ed pause or not, but Judo did pause.

Logic should have just been cool about it, but he was technically right.

Krystedez said:

Second hit was when the pause occurred I believe. Thanks for that Ran.

I think for the most part I might be letting this emotionally get to me so I won't be discussing this any further unless I can do it unbiasedly like I'm trying. Sorry if it seems like I'm taking this out of proportion. I know immediately what I would have done as TO but that's just me. I wouldn't advance Judo because I think he's a better player, or because I like him, I'd advance him because the GAME screen showed him as winner and the pause was not game-changing IN ANY WAY POSSIBLE.

That's my final say on it. What would have been done if Day had did what I just said. Would people disrespect her? Like seriously?

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I think it's sufficiently ambiguous that she deserves respect with any decision.

Supermodel From Paris said:

Logic was ****ed pause or not, but Judo did pause.
.

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so if he paused when logic was in the backround, you're saying that logic should have the right to win?

Ripple said:

so if he paused when logic was in the backround, you're saying that logic should have the right to win?

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No. It's a tough line to draw, I admit, but this is the best I can do:

If the player pauses when the opponent can still interact with his character using the controller, the pause regulations can be invoked. That means that if, for instance, you pause when the character could still airdodge or momentum cancel to reduce knockback even if he is doomed to die for sure anyway the pause rule can be invoked.

This may seem arbitrary but there's no better way to do it, because you could pretty much always say that some kind of act of video game jesus could have saved you if the game hadn't been paused. Obviously if Fox is standing in the middle of FD after usmashing MK and then he pauses in the middle of the star KO animation he still wins, because MK can no longer interact with his character.

With that said, this is only so complicated because the rule is dumb in the first place. Pausing should be off. Games should be re-played in the event of serious emergencies or problems with TO discretion.