DK's Planking info v.1.0. can we remove the LGL now? DO NOT REPLY TO JEBUS!

Ripple · Oct 6, 2011

I decided to make this thread because of the number of people referencing DK's planking without knowing anything about it.

big thanks to DMG for doing his thread on planking data a long time ago.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267257

here are some things you need to know

DMG said:
- Ledge invincibility: 1-46 (This is correct for most of the cast. There are some exceptions to this like Pikachu and Tethers)
- Minimum Time on Ledge: 24 frames (The 25th frame you can do stuff like ledge attack, ledge jump, ledge roll, etc. You cannot drop down from the edge on this frame) (This is the Same for everyone, only a few exceptions to this)
- You cannot buffer a ledge drop, hence frame 25 being unusable for ledge drop.
- Maximum invincibility after ledge drop: 21 (This is for everyone)

-You can only re-grab the ledge after 30 frames from letting go. For tethers it's like 1 frame.
-You cannot buffer a ledge drop. So you have to be frame perfect on the ledge drop if you want to take advantage of every invincibility frame.
-Invincibility frames start as soon as the character does their ledge reach animation. For tether users, they start when their tether is fully retracted.

and another thing to note, although it doesn't come into play here is that DK's up-b won't allow him to grab the ledge until frame 8. which means if you can grab the ledge but you use up-b, you won't be able to grab the ledge until frame 8 of up-b, which means his giant invincible hit box still comes out

here's the frame by frame break down doing is ASAP.

green=invincibility
Red=vulnerable

1 Ledge snap
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Dead frame (no action can be input)
26 Drop down from the ledge. 30 Frames from now he can regrab the ledge
27 Up-b
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57 re-snaps the ledge

total vulnerable frames=10

this is actually very easy to time something to hit him out of his up-b (such as olimar's f-smash!) BECAUSE DK is very close to the height of the ledge this is the only reason why f-smash will hit. and I also need to note that f-smash will always sour spot DK. (On yoshi's island purple will never hit) and to make things worse is that the sour-spot f-smash from olimar (blue) won't kill until 270% FRESH. 300% from yellow. and about 400% from white. (haven't tested red or purple on other levels yet).

now here's an alternate form of his planking that is what people should be using but remember, this is frame perfect.

1 Ledge snap
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Dead Frame
26 drop off. 30 frames until re-grab is possible
27 Drift towards the ledge
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36 you may need to DJ during any of these frame.
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44 Up-b
45 frame 2 of up-b
46 frame 3 of up-b
47 INVINCIBILITY on Up-b frame 4
48 INVINCIBILITY on Up-b frame 5
49 INVINCIBILITY on Up-b frame 6
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57

*the reason DK uses up-b early is because his up-b does not have invincibility frames 1-3*

total vulnerable frames = 7

this much harder to stop in general because
1. less vulnerable frames.
2. DK can't be hit by as many projectiles (or any of olimar's f-smashes) due to him being closer to the stage/ completely under other stages.
3. A GIANT INVINCIBLE hit box that hits characters on the stage

I'm not sure on much else such as opponents trying to snap the ledge from DK (because of DK's constant hitboxs) as I do not have access to frame advance

as a side note I will try and get up some videos later of an olimar doing everything possible to stop DK from planking

Neon! · Oct 6, 2011

Thank you for this Ripple

allens · Oct 6, 2011

this is awesome ripple, thanks.

you could also look into why it's necessary to plank, and what other options DK has off the edge, and maybe how to read your opponent in order to get back safely. but that's a whole other ball game.

^ reason i mention this is because of the 'new' LGL that will stop Will vs Rich Brown Matches from happening again.

WindMajor · Oct 6, 2011

Threads like these should be made before we make changes to rulesets, not after.

Better late than never though. Good job, Ripple, I appreciate that you made this thread.

Krystedez · Oct 6, 2011

Sometime someone should do this for Pit and GW if it hasnt already been done.

Very nicely done Rip ^^

Ripple · Oct 7, 2011

Twinkie said:
Threads like these should be made before we make changes to rulesets, not after.

Better late than never though. Good job, Ripple, I appreciate that you made this thread.

I'm guessing you're referring you the addition of the LGL? wasn't that done before RB vs. will?

Flayl · Oct 7, 2011

No, the global LGL rule was done specifically because of RB vs Will (and to a lesser extent Will VS ADHD). It was dumb.

Really it shows how scrubby the smash community can be at times.

culexus・wau · Oct 7, 2011

lucario run-off dair/sh dair should be able to meaty him out of his invuln while remaining safe right?

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 7, 2011

FlameWaveK said:
lucario run-off dair/sh dair should be able to meaty him out of his invuln while remaining safe right?

Doesn't dair hit on the 5th frame, leaving you a grand total window of 2 frames to actually hit [assuming that 2 frames is enough to even get in position to actually hit DK!]? Most characters don't even have that fast a dair and isn't 7 frames well belo human reaction time as well? If all that is true I'd say it's very unlikely for most almost all of the cast to punish this in any way.

Although I usually hate the stuff Ripple posts this information is very good and valuable. Even more valuable than this would be information on GWs planking imo. It seems to be a bit more complex than DKs planking because GW has the option of hitting opponents close to the ledge with nair while dropping down but it would shed so much more light on this whole issue that I can't help but feel intrigued.

Flayl · Oct 7, 2011

You're not supposed to react to DK's UpB, you're supposed to react to him letting go or timing the move with the end of his ledge invincibility frames

Grim Tuesday · Oct 7, 2011

Characters who can stop this planking:
Meta Knight (aerial game)
Snake (projectiles)
Diddy Kong (bananas)
Falco (Dair? It looks disjointed enough...)
Marth (Disjointed aerials, counter)
Wario (aerial game, tires)
Ice Climbers (desync shenangians)
Olimar (dair...)
etc...

Am I missing something here? I still don't understand why this is supposed to be such a good tactic if it has around 10 predictable frames of vulnerability...

Omni · Oct 7, 2011

You guys are assuming the DK only has one option during planking.

He can easily do things like ledge drop and double jump away from the platform while still under the stage. Then up+b safely back to the platform.

Too much theoryfighting.

Grim Tuesday · Oct 7, 2011

Omni said:
You guys are assuming the DK only has one option during planking.

He can easily do things like ledge drop and double jump away from the platform while still under the stage. Then up+b safely back to the platform.

Too much theoryfighting.

And you are assuming that the player being planked only has one option during planking.

If you take all of DK's options, and all of the on-stage player's options, the player on-stage EASILY has more.

Ghostbone · Oct 7, 2011

Grim Tuesday said:
And you are assuming that the player being planked only has one option during planking.

If you take all of DK's options, and all of the on-stage player's options, the player on-stage EASILY has more.

Mmm pretty much

I wouldn't say DK's planking is good for camping necessarily, but more so against some characters to force them to commit to an option, allowing him to get on-stage safely.

Grim Tuesday · Oct 7, 2011

Exactly.

It can work in the short term, but if you are trying to run out the timer, eventually you are going to get gimped.

Grim Tuesday · Oct 7, 2011

EDIT: Double post.

Omni · Oct 7, 2011

Grim Tuesday said:
And you are assuming that the player being planked only has one option during planking.

If you take all of DK's options, and all of the on-stage player's options, the player on-stage EASILY has more.

Yes, but the point is that the player's options:

- Won't kill DK
- Put them at a high-risk, low-reward situation

The advantage is always going to be awarded to DK heavily regardless if the player on stage has options to "do something".

Flayl · Oct 7, 2011

Omni said:
You guys are assuming the DK only has one option during planking.

He can easily do things like ledge drop and double jump away from the platform while still under the stage. Then up+b safely back to the platform.

Too much theoryfighting.

Who can tell me why I put this in bold?

Omni · Oct 7, 2011

Don't care. But don't blatantly make a spam post and quote a moderator in the process.

Flayl · Oct 7, 2011

Okay. How about theoryfighting led to the global LGL in the first place? Where is all the testing done in live matches that prove a player can mix it up and be unpunishable?

Omni · Oct 7, 2011

Non-LGL's existed before they were implemented. Decision was made based on actual events; not theory.

Ghostbone · Oct 7, 2011

Omni said:
Yes, but the point is that the player's options:

- Won't kill DK
- Put them at a high-risk, low-reward situation

Really? Olimar's f-smash puts him in a high-risk, low-reward situation? Seems to me like a no risk, low reward situation......
And even if it doesn't kill, he can follow-up with other moves now that DK's off the ledge, or just keep racking up the free damage that DK's allowing him to get by planking.

The advantage is always going to be awarded to DK heavily regardless if the player on stage has options to "do something".

Eh, -insert obligatory comparison to Diddy or Falco's camping, and how the approacher hardly ever has the advantage-

Flayl · Oct 7, 2011

Decision was based on uninformed play. Nobody that advocated global LGL actually tested it.

Omni · Oct 7, 2011

@Ghostbone: If DK is up a stock he has a tremendous lead against Olimar, Diddy, Falco, etc. if he planks. None of their options to stop him will kill him if he's going for a timeout or just stalling.

@Flayl: Uninformed? In what regards? The only thing TO's noted was that it was detrimental to tournament play and they didn't want it ran at their tournaments. Proving that there is 6-7 frames for a few characters to stop a form of planking does not make it okay.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 7, 2011

Flayl said:
Nobody that advocated global LGL actually tested it.

Evidence needed.

Grim Tuesday · Oct 7, 2011

Omni said:
@Ghostbone: If DK is up a stock he has a tremendous lead against Olimar, Diddy, Falco, etc. if he planks. None of their options to stop him will kill him if he's going for a timeout or just stalling.

Explain to me why the following won't work:
Diddy Kong:
Dair spike.
Up B spike.
Banana > Fair KO/edge-guard

Falco:
Dair spike.
Shine > Dair spike/bair KO/edge-guard

Olimar:
Dair spike.
Fsmash > Whatever edge-guarding tools Olimar has (I don't know much about him)

Gheb_01 said:
Evidence needed.

Evidence: If anyone had tested it properly, we wouldn't have a LGL.

Ghostbone · Oct 7, 2011

Omni said:
@Ghostbone: If DK is up a stock he has a tremendous lead against Olimar, Diddy, Falco, etc. if he planks. None of their options to stop him will kill him if he's going for a timeout or just stalling.

The moves don't have to kill DK by themselves, like with Olimar, he can pressure DK now that the DK's been put in a recovery situation off-stage with fair or side-b, and can grab the ledge at the right time to gimp DK or force him on-stage to punish.

Flayl · Oct 7, 2011

Gheb_01 said:
Evidence needed.

Several people including me asked for evidence when the URC made this change to their ruleset. Nobody gave any evidence whatsoever beyond Will vs Rich Brown (which isn't evidence if you've seen the match).

@Omni: "Detrimental to tournament play"? Is that like standing infinites? Or maybe there is some further logic that escapes me.

Also DK's perfect planking has 7 unbufferable frame perfect frames of vulnerability

edit: The funny part is I believe the length of invincibility on the ledge can help people run the clock, I'm just appalled at the scrubby mindset behind the rule implementation.

Grim Tuesday · Oct 7, 2011

I'm not going to say that planking doesn't help people run the clock. I plank all the time with Jigglypuff.

My problem is with the people who think that planking is broken and actually needs limiting. I mean, sure, it can work, but only when mixed with other strategies, and it still takes skill and mental ability to perform.

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 7, 2011

Flayl said:
Several people including me asked for evidence when the URC made this change to their ruleset.

So "nobody from URC" and "nobody" is the same thing now?

Flayl · Oct 7, 2011

Gheb_01 said:
So "nobody from URC" and "nobody" is the same thing now?

It's not like the URC were the only group of people that wanted the rule, nor are they the only people posting in the unity ruleset thread lol

Do you know of some hidden tests?

Ripple · Oct 7, 2011

Flayl said:
@Omni: "Detrimental to tournament play"? Is that like standing infinites? Or maybe there is some further logic that escapes me.

Gheb said:
I usually hate the stuff ripple posts

I'm going to tell you guys right now that DK's planking isn't unbeatable at all.

but what IS nearly impossible to stop by like 2/3 of the cast is DK planking while mixing up an invincible up-air and a get up-attack (under 100%).

Grim Tuesday · Oct 7, 2011

What? Why?

Stand by the ledge and shield. It beats all of DK's options if he commits to something, lol, and he HAS to commit to something or his invuln will run out.

If he Up Bs, you can use a disjoint, projectile or hit his head. If he uairs, you can shield-grab it or punish it out of shield some other way, same with get-up attack. If he hangs from the ledge you can dtilt or whatever to knock him off. If he just drops off and re-grabs this is where it starts to get interesting, but saying 2/3 of the cast can't do anything about this situation is ridiculous lol.

All of these pose very little risk to the plankee's stock and are very easy to do.

Cassio · Oct 8, 2011

Grim using arguments he argued against in his thread

Clear cut that some characters can deal with this and some cant. What matters is whether its important to make a rule for those who cant.

Grim Tuesday · Oct 8, 2011

Cassio said:
Grim using arguments he argued against in his thread

Um... what? I've always believed that DK's planking is counterable o_O

Exceladon City · Oct 9, 2011

Thing is, if you do hit him, he's under a percent high enough for it to matter. 1 of 2 things will happen if you somehow hit him or hog the ledge.

1. He's not going to go anywhere far enough away from the ledge to actually panic and could just copter back to the stage at a height that will either hit you or autocancel on the stage.

2. He can just UpB you right after your attack, putting you in a horrible situation in which death is nigh avoidable.

Normal DK planking isn't really hard to deal with. I timed several Fsmashes from Olimar that hit him during it. The drawback to Fsmashing DK is that you're at the range for him to just ledge attack you. On the other hand, P.Planking is something Olimar CANNOT deal with. DK's UpB just knocks Pikmin away because of his invincibility; doesn't matter what color Fsmash you use.

Grim Tuesday · Oct 9, 2011

U

Oreo (Excel) said:
Thing is, if you do hit him, he's under a percent high enough for it to matter. 1 of 2 things will happen if you somehow hit him or hog the ledge.

1. He's not going to go anywhere far enough away from the ledge to actually panic and could just copter back to the stage at a height that will either hit you or autocancel on the stage.

2. He can just UpB you right after your attack, putting you in a horrible situation in which death is nigh avoidable.

This implies that DK's recovery is so good that he can't be edge-guarded in any situation.

Normal DK planking isn't really hard to deal with. I timed several Fsmashes from Olimar that hit him during it. The drawback to Fsmashing DK is that you're at the range for him to just ledge attack you. On the other hand, P.Planking is something Olimar CANNOT deal with. DK's UpB just knocks Pikmin away because of his invincibility; doesn't matter what color Fsmash you use.

It isn't invincible 100% of the time, why don't you just jump over his head and dair spike him?

Ghostbone · Oct 9, 2011

Grim Tuesday said:
It isn't invincible 100% of the time, why don't you just jump over his head and dair spike him?

DK's too low to do this without putting yourself at significant risk.

Another option Olimar has though is timing a dair as he's landing on-stage so that it hits DK just before he grabs the ledge.

Ripple · Oct 9, 2011

Ghostbone said:
Another option Olimar has though is timing a dair as he's landing on-stage so that it hits DK just before he grabs the ledge.

this only hits if DK is riding the ledge (melee lingo).

if he isn't, it doesn't hit

Grim Tuesday · Oct 9, 2011

Ghostbone said:
DK's too low to do this without putting yourself at significant risk.

How does it put you at significant risk? It isn't like he can cancel is Up B into anything. If you see him Up B you just jump into a position where you can hit him with dair, if you **** up or he moves in a way you don't expect, land back on the stage.

DK's Planking info v.1.0. can we remove the LGL now? DO NOT REPLY TO JEBUS!

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