• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

ICs

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,407
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
What the hell are we supposed to do?

Most of the time when I lose to players better than me I feel like I know whats going on, I just can't execute my gameplan or I'm being predictable/bad.

But against ICs I'm at a loss. **** happens and I die. It doesn't help that there aren't many midlevel ICs out there; its either Wobbles, Chu, or Fly ****** my face or 4 stocking a guy who doesn't actually know how to play the character..

Help.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
6,453
Location
Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
Ic's climbers greatest strength is getting grabbed. IC's greatest weakness is getting shined/Dsmashed by peach. Since Marth has neither a shine or peach's dsmash.

The bad news here is Marth has neither. In my own experience my best advice for IC's is Star Wars Episode 1. By that I mean Darth Maul. By that I mean run away and look for to separate one from the other. Sometimes you can uses throw one of them into the other. Take the chance to do some damage but if you have to choose between damaging Popo and keeping nana and popo separated...choose to keep them divided. Cancel dtilts are pretty much the best you can do against them. Dsmash works well but if you miss or mistime it, you are ****ed. Grabs are usually Marth's best weapon but with 2 vs 1 it's difficult to make it work for you. If you do get a grab it's best to throw as soon as possible. Neut-B attacks are surprisingly good in this MU when used in nonpunishable positions.

That's all I got on this MU. IC's are rare though.
 

TheGoat

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
584
lulz, eat it marth

I'd contribute but I just don't know anything about this matchup.
 

Dart!

Smash Master
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
3,755
Location
East Peoria, IL
This matchup is easy if you know it. Hard if you don't.
same can be said for
Samus
Peach
Falcon
Jiggs
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
6,453
Location
Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
I don't think Falcon or Puff is ever really easy unless the other person doesn't know how to play vs Marth. If both know it...it can be hard for both.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,501
Location
MT. OLYMPUS, Arizona
IC vs. Marth is evenish, but it's one of Marth's better top 8 matchups IMO.

The simple things to do are DI up against down throw down air and jump out.

Don't try to wall out with only aerials; good ICs will slip through if you have a definitive rhythm.

Down tilt is fantastic for stopping their approaches. It's really difficult to shield grab with the same tricks you do to Sheik. You can also go into short hop or jabs during the IASA frames to make it harder for them to time forward air approaches against repeated down tilts or forward smash approaches against your aerial keep out.

You can just short hop over ice blocks. (Also jab them)

Time your approaches against Ice Block spam with Popo's blocks since that's the one that he controls.

DON'T DO RANDOM FORWARD SMASHES WHILE THEY'RE ON THE GROUND. You will lose a stock for free if they shield it and it's not a tipper. If you ever feel compelled to Forward smash them while on the ground at least put some thought into it and tipper their shield.

Hit confirming forward air > forward smash is really good, especially if they're by the edge of the stage since Nana will usually get hit and Popo will either get hit or shield and slide to ledge.

You can forward air on top of their shield pretty safely and depending on positioning, you can just keep pushing them out. I wouldn't use down air TOO much on their shield, but neutral air is pretty good for covering everything if you're unsure how they're going to come at you.

You generally want to use forward throw if you grab them. It often pushes Nana/Popo away so you don't get forward/down smashed by the other one. You're also less vulnerable in general.

Take opportunities to safely kill Nana, but you have to recognize that Popo will try to stop you. You generally want to make sure Popo is controlled or play to wall them both out. Nana will slowly try to maneuver around you to make it back to Popo, observe carefully how Nana is influenced by your position and you can just keep swatting her away until she can't jump back anymore.

Don't sleep on SoPo. All it takes is one down smash and you're losing 60% or a stock. Even though IC damage is down, it greatly increases his maneuverability. He's going to be harder to hit, and he's going to look to counter every swing you take. I generally like to be more grab and jab heavy in this phase for that reason.

Be patient edgeguarding ICs. Deny the edge at every opportunity, watch and wait for air dodges, and don't overextend. SoPo has a tough time doing an aerial double jumping and recovering, and has a tough time dealing with up air and up tilt trying to land on the stage from above.

I know top ICs have gotten really good at the matchup and it's only going to get worse because they're hitting harder than ever. Always try to wiggle out of grabs, ESPECIALLY if Nana is out of position to force the down throw before hand offs can happen. If you're playing correctly, it should be difficult to get clean grabs on you. Nana should almost always be out of position or hit if you ever get grabbed.

If you do get grabbed by the edge... I think DIing up against hand offs makes it a little bit harder than DIing away. If they're on though... it's a stock so if you want to do stupid laggy stuff that gets you punished, try to do it in center stage at low percentages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Qy4tOjeTc

This match is from 3 years ago, I was super rusty (I still am relatively), but the general theory around the matchup still applies now. Since Wobbles is my roommate now and he's one of the best players in the world, I think I'm still doing pretty well in the match up today. He's gotten a lot better (obviously) and I'd say that now I probably win 70ish% of our matches depending on the day.

I like to reset my position a lot, especially in this matchup. They obviously don't want you to, especially if they just hit you. So that's where you need to be careful and not get sniped by back airs and down smashes. It will happen; you just gotta shake it off and focus on doing your job. This is one of the only high tier matchups where Marth can really keep someone out effectively. ICs just don't have quite the range or attack speed that other characters have.

FD isn't a bad stage for Marth in this matchup. Yoshi's is double edged but more in your favor. DL is only bad if you screw up your edgeguards and give ICs more chances or you fall behind and have to do long approaches against them. I'd say every neutral is fine against them, so I'd just figure out what stage that IC likes and remove it. FoD is a little too random for me, so I might ban that or DL depending on how I'm feeling.

I'm pretty confident that anyone that applies my strats and has better handles with Marth than me will beat any IC. You don't need to be fancy; you just have to control your character.

React and Deny.™

Last note: This is just my current take on the matchup currently. I used to think the matchup was even more in Marth's favor, almost a hard counter. ICs are hitting much harder than they used to, and they've gotten a lot better at timing approaches and slipping through Marth's wall outs. I'm pretty open to the idea this matchup will become even or even disadvantageous in the near future, but I still think it's Marth favored mainly because I've done really well against every IC I've ever played, and I still do well against Wobbles, who is undoubtedly an overall better player than me. I'm just a specialist.
 

Dart!

Smash Master
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
3,755
Location
East Peoria, IL
IC vs. Marth is evenish, but it's one of Marth's better top 8 matchups IMO.


Last note: This is just my current take on the matchup currently. I used to think the matchup was even more in Marth's favor, almost a hard counter. ICs are hitting much harder than they used to, and they've gotten a lot better at timing approaches and slipping through Marth's wall outs. .
IMO marth's haven't really stepped up their game yet in this matchup. Probably because we haven't needed to ever. Now it's on us to improve. That's really what happens when a character is top tier early but actually isn't easy to use. Now we gotta play catchup
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
FD isn't a bad stage for Marth in this matchup. Yoshi's is double edged but more in your favor. DL is only bad if you screw up your edgeguards and give ICs more chances or you fall behind and have to do long approaches against them. I'd say every neutral is fine against them, so I'd just figure out what stage that IC likes and remove it. FoD is a little too random for me, so I might ban that or DL depending on how I'm feeling.
I think FD is a bad stage for this match. Frankly, I'm almost to the point where I think pretty much every character should ban FD against ICs except the mirror, the WD OOS > death is just too potent. You really have no interest dashdance camping then until there's only 1 climber and that's pretty much the only reason to go to FD. I think it's better to platform camp them in a general way, either by traditional style (moving around) or by shield camping on platforms to OOS aerials (which is great btw, would highly recommend).

When you sit down for stage striking, I'd just strike FD and DL64 outright, FD because it's ICs and DL64 because you're marth.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
you know what would make the matchup really easy...a damage counter for nana...honestly that's my only grief..but thanks for the tips taj...

the main reason i would like that is i heard that the cpu AI is based off of the timer, so then i could dthrow popo at the edge and know whether nana is likely to go wild on me...

is this true btw?
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,407
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
Taj, thanks for all the help.

Few questions!

1) How do you deal with IC's blizzard? What I have been doing recently is just standing outside it and waiting for it to end...they can't make another one if you are close. Is that really the answer? Is there no way to punish/hit them? Counter is the only thing I've found to work semireliably.
2) After your dtilts on shield, what do you do? I feel like dash back is almost always bad unlike vs. other characters since you aren't really threatening to grab (since they are ICs) and you risk a WD dsmash in the face if they read you. Jab/fair? I feel so susceptible to roll reads then...I don't know how to vary my wall well I guess?
3) I have to watch your vids again (they're great) but iirc you do a lot of sideBs and jabs. Even raw, off no dtilt/fair. Sometimes walkup sideB/jab. How do you choose when to do those? They are really sexy lol
4) How do you kill Nana efficiently? I've found it really easy to rack damage on her, but once she gets high I can't follow without overextending myself. Hitting her jump offstage is always super rewarding, but other than that she usually in for a long time.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,501
Location
MT. OLYMPUS, Arizona
Taj, thanks for all the help.

Few questions!

1) How do you deal with IC's blizzard? What I have been doing recently is just standing outside it and waiting for it to end...they can't make another one if you are close. Is that really the answer? Is there no way to punish/hit them? Counter is the only thing I've found to work semireliably.
2) After your dtilts on shield, what do you do? I feel like dash back is almost always bad unlike vs. other characters since you aren't really threatening to grab (since they are ICs) and you risk a WD dsmash in the face if they read you. Jab/fair? I feel so susceptible to roll reads then...I don't know how to vary my wall well I guess?
3) I have to watch your vids again (they're great) but iirc you do a lot of sideBs and jabs. Even raw, off no dtilt/fair. Sometimes walkup sideB/jab. How do you choose when to do those? They are really sexy lol
4) How do you kill Nana efficiently? I've found it really easy to rack damage on her, but once she gets high I can't follow without overextending myself. Hitting her jump offstage is always super rewarding, but other than that she usually in for a long time.
1.) I would treat it similarly to ice block. Just being in position is enough to make them stop. If Nana is doing one, I wouldn't try to punish it, just invade more space. If Popo is doing one or if he does it AFTER Nana is doing one and you're just out of range, get ready to space a tipper forward smash. I suppose you can also just go in with a SHFFL forward air in between as well, but I haven't really looked at it much. I think I do a good enough job against blizzard that Wob doesn't spam it too much lately.

But it's generally pretty difficult to hard punish unless you're already just out of range so I usually just muscle my way in and make them uncomfortable generally. Looking to trade my second hit neutral air with it or something and just get anything that desyncs them.

2.) Down tilt on shield, do another one. IASA. ICs have a REALLY hard time slipping through between pokes. Or you can do Down tilt to jab if you're scared, down tilt > short hop is also pretty strong since it negates down smash for a moment and puts you in control to move forward or away with a fast fall forward air. I only dash or turn around if the down tilt is in shield grab range like we do against Sheik players.

3.) :D Thanks, I mostly just do it as kind of a "Zone Check™" whenever I get the feeling that I'm vulnerable if he decided to attack right then and I throw it there just incase to make him reconsider approaching me or attempt to punish him for approaching. Both of those moves are fast enough and have a second hit that has just enough range that if I DO see him move forward to slip in between, I can still keep him out most of the time.

So basically, I like using it to just cover myself and if I feel like he's going to move, to keep him in place or to keep him from getting to me.

4.) Marth isn't Fox/Peach. You can't just push a magic button on top of their shield that makes her go away. Just be patient, if you racked up the damage on Nana while not taking much damage yourself, it will pay off. Remember, as much as Nana boosts their damage, she also kind of hinders their movement and gives you a lingering hitbox as well as a projectile if you grab her and throw her at Popo, especially at higher percentages.

You don't necessarily need to chase her when she goes higher; you keep your eye on Popo until Nana is forced to cross your path, ideally. Then you can do quick aerials to keep them split until Popo wants to make a move or let her die. You generally don't want to go off stage to kill Nana unless Popo is nowhere to be seen or you can kill her and have plenty of options to make it back to stage without up Bing or air dodging (Try not to risk getting gimped by Popo)

Basically, when you swat her away, she will walk back through you and you can kill or knock her away again while you're pressuring Popo since your neutral and forward airs are very safe on their shield.

I haven't come up with a solid formula yet, but really, just watching and waiting is one of the best things you can do unless Popo is away from you. At which point, you just knock her *** out.

The overall goal is to land hits on either of them that forces desyncs. When they're split up it gets a lot easier to take control of the match. Even though SoPo is still viable, it is undoubtedly easier to deal with SoPo than worry about getting 0-deathed from your poorly spaced forward smash or forward air.

Just stay focused. Don't let yourself run into their bull****. Shake it off when they catch you, it will happen. Do your best to not overextend. Most of the time you can just sit there and keep knocking Popo away until he dies. Deny ledge when he goes low, up tilt when he goes high, and for everything else... there's forward smash.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,407
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
So much knowledge just got dropped right now. General themes: stay on their ***, don't be scared, be patient, don't gamble, don't run into or away from their bull****, choke them with sword.

Thx Taj :)
 

.Chipmunk.

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
599
Location
Lawrenceville, GA
So much knowledge just got dropped right now. General themes: stay on their ***, don't be scared, be patient, don't gamble, don't run into or away from their bull****, choke them with sword.

Thx Taj :)
When I play ICs I just go ham and do whatever I want. It actually nets me pretty good results, haha. I'm always cautious of getting grabbed though. Marth has plenty of tools to split the ICs apart from each other and that is always a good thing.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
Awesome advice from the legendary Marth, Taj :) I'm playing vs nintendude in a couple weeks, wish me luck marth peeps

EDIT: The main thing I worry about in this matchup is tech skill errors. Like, if I fair their shield and I'm playing good, I can do Up B OOS after, dodge, buffer roll and mix those up to avoid getting grabbed. That makes me feel much safer.

But when i'm playing bad, a fair on the shield = grab for them. That's what makes this matchup so nervewrecking for me
 
Top Bottom