choknater
Smash Obsessed
Mods: If this thread belongs on the IC boards, feel free to move it there... but the IC players are not my target audience haha.
I am tired of defeating newer players without effort just because they don't know the matchup. At my last tournament, I noticed that there is a staggering difference between people who know this matchup and people who don't. I found it easy to 4-stock half my pool because they fell for silly tricks. I felt that all I'd have to do is tell them what to do against me and it would be so much better for them.
The purpose of this thread is to help players who are unfamiliar with this matchup learn some basic tactics against them. I will reveal some of IC's goals in the general neutral game against most characters, what most characters can generally do against them, and finally some weaknesses and sure-ways to defeat them.
Lots of people say things like, "Oh, so-and-so tactic beats Ice Climbers." Sometimes what they say is true, but only to a degree. Sometimes I hear what they say and am able to counter what I know they will do.
For example, I know that Peach will dsmash, and it becomes EXTREMELY telegraphed, so I start doing things like preemptive blizzards, full hop fairs, sh bairs, ice blocks. I can just stand in front of her face waiting for it. In this thread I will tell you WHY peach's dsmash is strong against them, but why it is not so simple as spamming the move.
There is a difference between what people THINK we lose to, and stuff that we REALLY do lose to. I'll try to make it clear! Most IC players are really good with their main... so if I/Boback/Fly/Wobbles/ChuDat/Nintendude/Trail/Smasher89/The legendary fabled UberIce are in your area, hopefully this thread can give you a better idea of what to do against us.
So let's begin.
Synopsis:
#1 The mid-range
#2 Anti-walling
#3 Shield pressure, and pushing IC's off the ledge
#4 Getting beneath IC's
#5 Edgeguarding tips
#1 IC Weakness: Mid-range (THEIR BIGGEST WEAKNESS!)
For this matchup I define mid-range as the range outside their grab/fsmash/blizzard range but within their full wavedash length. Imagine where the tip of their blizzard would be... That's the spot! When you're inside this range, you've nerfed their greatest strengths. There is little need to shield pressure them because they can't do anything out of shield besides shield grab anyway. Just being there is already shield pressure. They can choose to walk forward, but some long pokes or projectiles will give you the advantage. They can wd, but since you are inside their full wd range, there will be quite a few frames (like 10~13 frames?) that they can't do anything while sliding. All you have to do is throw out a poke and their wavedash will be stopped.
Basically, when you are in this range you've reduced our options to these:
Retreat: Jump, WD away, Shield
Offense: Ice blocks, Blizzard, Walk up ftilt, dash attack, fair, turn around bair
Most importantly: If you are in this range, we cannot wavedash.
We cannot threaten people at this range unless we go for some janky blizzard or ice block follow up. You can avoid these. If we choose not to throw projectiles, all we can do is try to get away from this range by either approaching or retreating. We can try to fsmash or short hop fair, but if you're in the right range we'll just whiff. This is a really specific range, but most characters can totally abuse it. Even low tiers.
IC's can play offensively by wavedashing around a lot and going for many quick options. We will try to very quickly get in different ranges and use attacks that lead to grabs. When people retreat to platforms, we can uair from below which will almost always beat out anything they do.
However, if you get into this range against us, you've stuffed ALL our good approaches and movement capability. Why? Because we can't wavedash anymore. It will force us to try to bite back in other ways, or go into defense mode.
What I like to do to wall off this range is camp by using a desynched Nana blizzard and a Popo short hop Ice Block. It is a basic wall strategy, and when you see and Ice Climbers attempting to do something like this, you can just think, "Okay, they are walling." At that point, you can run around and perhaps try to find an angle of attack from above, or just run away. Some characters have projectiles that will go through this wall and prevent it.
#2 IC Weakness: Anti-walling
Here's a quick disclaimer... Some characters are VERY easily walled if they don't know how to get around it. Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff are a couple examples. They have no projectiles to challenge us with. They can still get around it though.
The general idea of the wall is mainly to make Nana blizzard, and then Popo can react to whatever the opponent does. One of the main purposes I do this is so that I can maintain a defense WITHOUT using my shield. The blizzard acts as a shield. If they don't come and challenge me, I can just throw an Ice block with Popo and keep it going. But if I can tell that they're trying to get around it or go directly through it, I can react with Popo and try to punish.
If your character has a projectile that can beat this wall, use it and abuse it.
These projectiles counter ice blocks and blizzard because they are a. faster, b. come in at an angle that avoids ice blocks, or c. let you avoid having to get near IC's altogether. Fox's laser is really the only one that doesn't help the opponent approach, but all the rest do. Fox still wins anyway because he has the ability to run if he wants.
Don't underestimate these projectiles. They are a go-to strategy that can solidify your neutral game and force IC's to play YOUR game. Even if they are not extremely threatening, they nullify one IC's stronger defensive strategies. If you have a projectile that goes in diagonally, watch out for blizzard and ice block chasers. This is when Nana shoots a projectile and Popo quickly runs or wd's in for a follow up.
*Notes on Falco's laser
**Notes on Peach's turnip:
If you don't play these characters... you can still get around their wall, or even prevent it altogether. Usually, I try to initiate a wall strategy by desynching. In order to desynch, I usually roll, but some other IC's like to shff desynch, or spot dodge. These are not safe if you're already in their face, so I usually roll.
You can just watch for the roll and punish it before any desynched moves come out, or follow the roll and get in their face again. You can pretty much walk toward them fearlessly and just throw out some fast moves or grab them. For example, walling only works for a little while agaisnt a Falcon who adapts quickly. A good Falcon will run away to platforms and try to hit me with a bair or stomp from above/behind me. Perhaps he will react to my roll and just knee me, which is good for him whether I get hit or block. If he sees me roll, he will just stuff any moves from coming out and stay in my face. If you play Falcon, react quickly!
Anti-blizzard wall stuff for no projectiles:
Another simple wall strategy that doesn't include projectiles is turnaround bairs. If you know how to deal with Marth's double fairs, you can deal with these too! Just don't run into them. IC's bairs autocancel. It's a really good move so don't challenge it too much. Just focus on getting into the mid-range so that even the bair will whiff, and then do things that will prevent more bairs.
#3 IC Weakness: Shield Pressure by the ledge
So you've used your projectiles and movement to corner us! We are now sitting ducks! Last weekend I lost to Lucien's Sheik because he said "I just tried to make you shield." Sometimes, it's really that simple.
The ideal situation for any character is to be in our mid range with our backs to the ledge. It is your GOAL to force us into this position. Many other characters can fight back while in this position... but IC's can do so little to get out of it. So what will you do next?
When people see IC's shielding, many get kinda scared to throw out attacks because they don't want to get shield grabbed. This is 2012! Don't be afraid. Just don't mess up. You should know by now how to space against shields.
There is another rule though that you should remember: They have two kinds of shield grabs. One is the normal shield grab, but the other is the wd shield grab. This is why you can't just throw out an fsmash or ftilt as Marth, because you will get wd shield grabbed. You CAN, however, throw out dtilt and be safe.
Another thing to note is that only one Ice Climber can grab the ledge at a time, so you can abuse this too. Push us off the ledge with attacks that have a lot of shield stun, and eventually one Ice Climber will have to use up its double jump to get back on.
Here are some character-specific moves that you might not have thought of. Be creative. We are sitting ducks if we are shielding by the ledge.
Keep in mind that one escape method is to roll past you. Sometimes I can just tell when someone is itching to commit. When they commit fully and get too close, I can roll past them and suddenly I am in the better position. Just stay in the mid range and use longer pokes that will eventually push us off.
Some people think that it's not good to grab IC's, but it can be okay as long as you choose a grab that can hit both of them. Grabs with hitboxes and invincible throws are good. Spacie's dthrows and most characters' fthrows/dthrows have some of these properties. Bthrows can cause separation, but will get you punished if you grab Nana and leave Popo to hit you.
#4 IC Weakness: Getting beneath them
IC's cannot challenge characters who are beneath them because their dair sucks. They have to find other ways to come back down. They can float down to the edge, try to air dodge down, or perhaps use side-B to change their trajectory. Watch everything they do and try to stay beneath them for as long as possible until you know you can hit them for sure. Our attacking options for coming down are dair, fair, and blizzard, and they are all pretty bad. Keep in mind that this weakness is not as exploitable as the others, but there are times that you will find yourself in this situation. Just think this: "Their dair sucks, and they fall slow."
There are two main ways to get beneath them: launching moves and baiting jumps.
Launching moves:
If you choose to run away, our main strategy to catch people is by using short or full hop uairs. If your character falls fast enough and we miss the uair, you can fall down and get under us.
#5 Edgeguarding IC's tips
Keep one thought in mind: We cannot sweetspot. All you have to do is wait.
Generally, the best way to recover with IC's is recover high with side-B. This can be hard to punish, but generally all you have to do is try to stay close to where they land. Even if you failed to hit them, you can just wait for them to come down and re-establish your position and get into the mid range.
How to edgeguard up-B: This confuses some people. Sometimes they don't know which one to attack! But this is actually a terrible recovery move that is easy to punish once you understand its properties.
- Nana is invincible and has a hitbox during her initial ascent. Wait until she descends.
- Popo goes much higher and has no hitbox. You can hit him during his ascent or on his way down. S2J is crazy and likes to knee Popo immediately.
- No matter how far into the stage Popo flies, Nana will ALWAYS choose to land near the edge. If you want to kill Nana, just wait in that spot, do not challenge her ascent, and wait for her to land. If there is a platform where she can land, she will land on the outside edge of the platform.
Teleporting properties: Popo's up-B will teleport Nana to him from great distances, but only under certain conditions:
- Nana must not be in hit stun
- Nana must not be in a tumble state
- Nana must not be grabbed
Popo's side-B can cancel almost any move Nana is doing (including taunt) and teleport her to him from short distances. Otherwise, he will just do a solo side-B.
In order to save Nana, she must still have her double jump. It is the only way for her to get out of the tumble state and allow her to join Popo in a recovery move. This means IC's can only recover from low, or about parallel to the ledge.
Synched side-B has very little lag. IC's can try to hit you with this and you can't really punish it. Solo side-B is very laggy and only has horizontal or falling movement. If he chooses to hit you, you can crouch cancel this and run toward wherever he lands.
Hopefully if you understand these things, you will never get confused by their recovery again. IC's up-B is really, really free.
* Conclusion *
I hope now you understand more about this unique character! This thread should give you many ideas. Even if you have zero experience in the matchup, this thread should be comprehensive enough that you could test out these strategies against computers, see how they work, and then apply them to real matches.
While other matchups are very dynamic (Falco vs Fox, Falcon vs marth) with many many options to choose from, fighting against IC's and their gimmicks can actually prove to be very systematic! Some characters, like Peach and Marth, can honestly win this matchup without even thinking. They only have to think and plan beforehand, then execute the strategy.
Hopefully I will get the chance to play people who read this thread, so that more people will know what to do in the matchup and help advance the metagame. I think IC's have historically been an important part of the metagame, but very enigmatic. They are one of the few characters that are actually good enough to beat Sheik and Puff.
Maybe this thread might even attract more IC players! But maybe not, since I just gave away all their weaknesses...
TL;DR IC'S BECOME ZANGIEF ONCE YOU TAKE AWAY THEIR WAVEDASH
Shoutouts to Russia, Fly_Amanita, indigenous Alaskans, and Red/White Santa Claus Climbers (Nana is in front when she is red/orange.)
I am tired of defeating newer players without effort just because they don't know the matchup. At my last tournament, I noticed that there is a staggering difference between people who know this matchup and people who don't. I found it easy to 4-stock half my pool because they fell for silly tricks. I felt that all I'd have to do is tell them what to do against me and it would be so much better for them.
The purpose of this thread is to help players who are unfamiliar with this matchup learn some basic tactics against them. I will reveal some of IC's goals in the general neutral game against most characters, what most characters can generally do against them, and finally some weaknesses and sure-ways to defeat them.
Lots of people say things like, "Oh, so-and-so tactic beats Ice Climbers." Sometimes what they say is true, but only to a degree. Sometimes I hear what they say and am able to counter what I know they will do.
For example, I know that Peach will dsmash, and it becomes EXTREMELY telegraphed, so I start doing things like preemptive blizzards, full hop fairs, sh bairs, ice blocks. I can just stand in front of her face waiting for it. In this thread I will tell you WHY peach's dsmash is strong against them, but why it is not so simple as spamming the move.
There is a difference between what people THINK we lose to, and stuff that we REALLY do lose to. I'll try to make it clear! Most IC players are really good with their main... so if I/Boback/Fly/Wobbles/ChuDat/Nintendude/Trail/Smasher89/The legendary fabled UberIce are in your area, hopefully this thread can give you a better idea of what to do against us.
So let's begin.
Synopsis:
#1 The mid-range
#2 Anti-walling
#3 Shield pressure, and pushing IC's off the ledge
#4 Getting beneath IC's
#5 Edgeguarding tips
#1 IC Weakness: Mid-range (THEIR BIGGEST WEAKNESS!)
For this matchup I define mid-range as the range outside their grab/fsmash/blizzard range but within their full wavedash length. Imagine where the tip of their blizzard would be... That's the spot! When you're inside this range, you've nerfed their greatest strengths. There is little need to shield pressure them because they can't do anything out of shield besides shield grab anyway. Just being there is already shield pressure. They can choose to walk forward, but some long pokes or projectiles will give you the advantage. They can wd, but since you are inside their full wd range, there will be quite a few frames (like 10~13 frames?) that they can't do anything while sliding. All you have to do is throw out a poke and their wavedash will be stopped.
Basically, when you are in this range you've reduced our options to these:
Retreat: Jump, WD away, Shield
Offense: Ice blocks, Blizzard, Walk up ftilt, dash attack, fair, turn around bair
Most importantly: If you are in this range, we cannot wavedash.
If this is enough for you, you can pretty much stop reading the thread here LOL.
We cannot threaten people at this range unless we go for some janky blizzard or ice block follow up. You can avoid these. If we choose not to throw projectiles, all we can do is try to get away from this range by either approaching or retreating. We can try to fsmash or short hop fair, but if you're in the right range we'll just whiff. This is a really specific range, but most characters can totally abuse it. Even low tiers.
IC's can play offensively by wavedashing around a lot and going for many quick options. We will try to very quickly get in different ranges and use attacks that lead to grabs. When people retreat to platforms, we can uair from below which will almost always beat out anything they do.
However, if you get into this range against us, you've stuffed ALL our good approaches and movement capability. Why? Because we can't wavedash anymore. It will force us to try to bite back in other ways, or go into defense mode.
What I like to do to wall off this range is camp by using a desynched Nana blizzard and a Popo short hop Ice Block. It is a basic wall strategy, and when you see and Ice Climbers attempting to do something like this, you can just think, "Okay, they are walling." At that point, you can run around and perhaps try to find an angle of attack from above, or just run away. Some characters have projectiles that will go through this wall and prevent it.
#2 IC Weakness: Anti-walling
Here's a quick disclaimer... Some characters are VERY easily walled if they don't know how to get around it. Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff are a couple examples. They have no projectiles to challenge us with. They can still get around it though.
The general idea of the wall is mainly to make Nana blizzard, and then Popo can react to whatever the opponent does. One of the main purposes I do this is so that I can maintain a defense WITHOUT using my shield. The blizzard acts as a shield. If they don't come and challenge me, I can just throw an Ice block with Popo and keep it going. But if I can tell that they're trying to get around it or go directly through it, I can react with Popo and try to punish.
If your character has a projectile that can beat this wall, use it and abuse it.
Fox - Laser
Falco - Laser*
Samus - Missile
Doc - Pill
Link/Ylink - Bomb
Peach - Turnip**
Pikachu - Diagonal Thunder Jolt
Sheik - Diagonal Needles
Falco - Laser*
Samus - Missile
Doc - Pill
Link/Ylink - Bomb
Peach - Turnip**
Pikachu - Diagonal Thunder Jolt
Sheik - Diagonal Needles
These projectiles counter ice blocks and blizzard because they are a. faster, b. come in at an angle that avoids ice blocks, or c. let you avoid having to get near IC's altogether. Fox's laser is really the only one that doesn't help the opponent approach, but all the rest do. Fox still wins anyway because he has the ability to run if he wants.
Don't underestimate these projectiles. They are a go-to strategy that can solidify your neutral game and force IC's to play YOUR game. Even if they are not extremely threatening, they nullify one IC's stronger defensive strategies. If you have a projectile that goes in diagonally, watch out for blizzard and ice block chasers. This is when Nana shoots a projectile and Popo quickly runs or wd's in for a follow up.
*Notes on Falco's laser
The neutral game against Falco is very interesting. If both players are conservative, the game will be reduced to a weird-looking war of attrition between Ice Blocks and Lasers. They will do about equal damage to each other if they are spamming. However, don't let anything EVER stop you from lasering. Lasers are so good because they can stop our wavedashes. Even though our Ice Blocks are doing damage, the Laser is a more powerful control tool because Falco has better mobility when we lose our wavedash. Laser your way into the mid-range and the game is yours.
The attrition battle is either even or slightly in IC's favor if Falco opts to take the ice block damage and keep lasering. If Falco chooses to shield or full jump, IC's are given a window to close in some space. Falco can watch and respond to this approach, but keep in mind that SHL is no longer safe at certain ranges. The laser desynch's IC's, so they can do a lot of things like short hop blizzard through the laser, dash attack through it, or wd fsmash through it which can be very devastating to Falco. Popo takes the hit and Nana continues with the attack.
An interesting element about the Laser vs Ice Block neutral game is that Ice Blocks will commonly force Falco to full jump. The neutral game turns into IC's either camping or trying to poke with uairs down from below, so Falco must find his way down to fight them, or perhaps bait them into jumping onto a platform. They usually won't though. This fight is very much a battle for positioning, and the Laser vs Ice Block/Blizzard combined with the IC uairs vs Falco on platforms neutral games will dictate that. Focus on that, and once you get a good hit, punish hard. If you separate them, you can chase Nana and kill her, but you don't always have to. You can also opt to pressure Popo with lasers because he is going to try to save her, so you can punish an obvious approach that he will make, or wait for Nana to come closer to you then kill her.
The attrition battle is either even or slightly in IC's favor if Falco opts to take the ice block damage and keep lasering. If Falco chooses to shield or full jump, IC's are given a window to close in some space. Falco can watch and respond to this approach, but keep in mind that SHL is no longer safe at certain ranges. The laser desynch's IC's, so they can do a lot of things like short hop blizzard through the laser, dash attack through it, or wd fsmash through it which can be very devastating to Falco. Popo takes the hit and Nana continues with the attack.
An interesting element about the Laser vs Ice Block neutral game is that Ice Blocks will commonly force Falco to full jump. The neutral game turns into IC's either camping or trying to poke with uairs down from below, so Falco must find his way down to fight them, or perhaps bait them into jumping onto a platform. They usually won't though. This fight is very much a battle for positioning, and the Laser vs Ice Block/Blizzard combined with the IC uairs vs Falco on platforms neutral games will dictate that. Focus on that, and once you get a good hit, punish hard. If you separate them, you can chase Nana and kill her, but you don't always have to. You can also opt to pressure Popo with lasers because he is going to try to save her, so you can punish an obvious approach that he will make, or wait for Nana to come closer to you then kill her.
**Notes on Peach's turnip:
Peach's turnip is SOOOO strong in this matchup. If the Ice Climber approaches, pretty much all our options can be stuffed by dsmash. People think dsmash wins the matchup, but that by itself will actually lose because it is easy to spot and react to. It is a combination of turnips->aerial AND dsmashes that can win the matchup for Peach brainlessly. I've lost to Peaches who were very weak at this game simply because they knew what strategy to abuse. IC's best response to turnip is to wd back and catch it. If we shield the turnip, you can just follow up with an aerial and dsmash us which will likely shield poke at least one of us. Basically, if you have a turnip in our hand and are floating, we are SCARED and have almost no way to approach. A cool, high-level approach would be to go for aerials while holding the turnip in hand because the turnip alone scares us into retreating.
Toss the turnip, approach with an fair or dair, land, attack. Depending on what the turnip and aerial do, you have a good chance to follow up. If they catch the turnip, IC's options are to throw it back and try to combo off it, or roll past an approach that's too obvious and committed. Be ready for turnip catches because that is pretty much our strongest response to turnips apart than just trying to avoid everything. If they block the turnip and the aerial, they will be in shield stun, so you can dsmash. I like turnip->dair->dsmash because it is pretty much guaranteed pressure, damage, and separation. Turnip->fair is more reliable for spacing though. Just keep the pressure up.
Toss the turnip, approach with an fair or dair, land, attack. Depending on what the turnip and aerial do, you have a good chance to follow up. If they catch the turnip, IC's options are to throw it back and try to combo off it, or roll past an approach that's too obvious and committed. Be ready for turnip catches because that is pretty much our strongest response to turnips apart than just trying to avoid everything. If they block the turnip and the aerial, they will be in shield stun, so you can dsmash. I like turnip->dair->dsmash because it is pretty much guaranteed pressure, damage, and separation. Turnip->fair is more reliable for spacing though. Just keep the pressure up.
If you don't play these characters... you can still get around their wall, or even prevent it altogether. Usually, I try to initiate a wall strategy by desynching. In order to desynch, I usually roll, but some other IC's like to shff desynch, or spot dodge. These are not safe if you're already in their face, so I usually roll.
You can just watch for the roll and punish it before any desynched moves come out, or follow the roll and get in their face again. You can pretty much walk toward them fearlessly and just throw out some fast moves or grab them. For example, walling only works for a little while agaisnt a Falcon who adapts quickly. A good Falcon will run away to platforms and try to hit me with a bair or stomp from above/behind me. Perhaps he will react to my roll and just knee me, which is good for him whether I get hit or block. If he sees me roll, he will just stuff any moves from coming out and stay in my face. If you play Falcon, react quickly!
Anti-blizzard wall stuff for no projectiles:
Fox - Run away, or stay close and react to desynchs
Falcon - Run away, or stay close and react to desynchs
Marth - Double fairs, late fairs, nair in place, dtilt. Just spam moves as fast as possible in that sweet mid-range, and we can't do anything. Sounds janky but it works.
Puff - When all else fails, just run away. It is VERY difficult for Puff to get through, but she can. Timed bairs can work between blizzards, or if Popo moves into a vulnerable spot. Trying to hit nana can be very difficult since we are good at protecting her, but Popo will always be the one doing stuff first, so try to hit him. The best possible way to win with Puff is to establish an early lead and then force IC's to approach her. (All this applies to Luigi as well. If Luigi gets the lead, IC's have a hard time catching him.)
Sheik - It is also difficult for Sheik to get through their wall, but persistence pays off. It is Sheik's goal to inch toward IC's and eventually start spamming fair on our shield. Make good use of platforms and timed diagonal needles and eventually you'll get in our face to the point where we are too slow to do anything in response. People say IC's win this matchup, but we only win when we trick Sheik into a trap or when Sheik messes up tech skill and gets grabbed.
Link - Link has this funny looking approach where he can full hop nair on top of shields, use the really late hitbox, and then double jump. J666 did this to me and it proved to be somewhat hard to deal with, because it allowed him some opportunities to pull bombs or bait my uairs. Otherwise Link should just try to keep throwing projectiles until he can get close and pressure with fairs and jabs.
Peach: If you float over the grounded blizzard and ice block height, you generally won't have much trouble getting close to IC's. IC's main tools against this height are short hop blizzard, fsmash, ballsy wd fsmash/usmash, fair, turn around bair. Also watch out for the hammer hitbox on short hop ice block. You can't always just go in effortlessly, but that float height is still really as long as you watch for our counter options.
*Important note* If you actually do get hit by the blizzard, quickly DI or SDI up and away so that you don't get grabbed.
Or you can be a baller like a LVL 9 CPU and SDI up and towards IC's and punish.
Falcon - Run away, or stay close and react to desynchs
Marth - Double fairs, late fairs, nair in place, dtilt. Just spam moves as fast as possible in that sweet mid-range, and we can't do anything. Sounds janky but it works.
Puff - When all else fails, just run away. It is VERY difficult for Puff to get through, but she can. Timed bairs can work between blizzards, or if Popo moves into a vulnerable spot. Trying to hit nana can be very difficult since we are good at protecting her, but Popo will always be the one doing stuff first, so try to hit him. The best possible way to win with Puff is to establish an early lead and then force IC's to approach her. (All this applies to Luigi as well. If Luigi gets the lead, IC's have a hard time catching him.)
Sheik - It is also difficult for Sheik to get through their wall, but persistence pays off. It is Sheik's goal to inch toward IC's and eventually start spamming fair on our shield. Make good use of platforms and timed diagonal needles and eventually you'll get in our face to the point where we are too slow to do anything in response. People say IC's win this matchup, but we only win when we trick Sheik into a trap or when Sheik messes up tech skill and gets grabbed.
Link - Link has this funny looking approach where he can full hop nair on top of shields, use the really late hitbox, and then double jump. J666 did this to me and it proved to be somewhat hard to deal with, because it allowed him some opportunities to pull bombs or bait my uairs. Otherwise Link should just try to keep throwing projectiles until he can get close and pressure with fairs and jabs.
Peach: If you float over the grounded blizzard and ice block height, you generally won't have much trouble getting close to IC's. IC's main tools against this height are short hop blizzard, fsmash, ballsy wd fsmash/usmash, fair, turn around bair. Also watch out for the hammer hitbox on short hop ice block. You can't always just go in effortlessly, but that float height is still really as long as you watch for our counter options.
*Important note* If you actually do get hit by the blizzard, quickly DI or SDI up and away so that you don't get grabbed.
Or you can be a baller like a LVL 9 CPU and SDI up and towards IC's and punish.
Another simple wall strategy that doesn't include projectiles is turnaround bairs. If you know how to deal with Marth's double fairs, you can deal with these too! Just don't run into them. IC's bairs autocancel. It's a really good move so don't challenge it too much. Just focus on getting into the mid-range so that even the bair will whiff, and then do things that will prevent more bairs.
#3 IC Weakness: Shield Pressure by the ledge
So you've used your projectiles and movement to corner us! We are now sitting ducks! Last weekend I lost to Lucien's Sheik because he said "I just tried to make you shield." Sometimes, it's really that simple.
The ideal situation for any character is to be in our mid range with our backs to the ledge. It is your GOAL to force us into this position. Many other characters can fight back while in this position... but IC's can do so little to get out of it. So what will you do next?
When people see IC's shielding, many get kinda scared to throw out attacks because they don't want to get shield grabbed. This is 2012! Don't be afraid. Just don't mess up. You should know by now how to space against shields.
There is another rule though that you should remember: They have two kinds of shield grabs. One is the normal shield grab, but the other is the wd shield grab. This is why you can't just throw out an fsmash or ftilt as Marth, because you will get wd shield grabbed. You CAN, however, throw out dtilt and be safe.
Another thing to note is that only one Ice Climber can grab the ledge at a time, so you can abuse this too. Push us off the ledge with attacks that have a lot of shield stun, and eventually one Ice Climber will have to use up its double jump to get back on.
Here are some character-specific moves that you might not have thought of. Be creative. We are sitting ducks if we are shielding by the ledge.
Fox: Afraid of missing L-cancels on our double shield? Try a quick Jab->Jab->Shine. The openings are very small, and every time I try to shield grab this, I usually get stuffed. It's probably a better idea for IC's to cc grab or something, but if you shine us we will slide off the ledge. In fact, it is Fox's whole game plan to get random shines that will push us to the ledge. Fox's usmash also has so much stun that it is difficult to shield grab. If we're not shooting Ice Blocks, Fox can fearlessly run up and shine or run up and usmash. Generally I'll try to protect myself with something like an ftilt or bair, or even fsmash if I try to make a hard guess as to when he will approach... but just keep dash dancing and you can make US whiff. If you are confident in your L-cancels against our double shield, just proceed to destroy us. Watch out for double light shield, or one light shield + one normal shield.
Falco: Ftilt and Fsmash are actually really good, and sometimes better than aerials. Laser ftilt, for example, cannot be shield grabbed when spaced correctly and will push us off the edge. Fsmash pushes us SO far that we can't shield grab any fsmash that isn't point blank. Perhaps we can shield SDI and shield grab, but it's still a good pushing move. You can also dair in place which will stuff any attempt we make at wding forward or dash attacking.
Falcon: Learn to L-cancel all your aerials VS our shield and suddenly everything becomes safe. Watch any match of S2J vs. Fly Amanita and you can see how strong aerial->gentleman is in this matchup. Falcon has to be super careful since he is the #1 easiest character to kill from one grab, so just nail L-cancels and you're fine. I think Hax is amazing at this matchup because he maneuvers in a way that never directly challenges IC's strengths. Just watch and learn here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPQq1k08YBU There are many times in this set where he just makes Fly want to approach and just bairs him for it.
Marth: Same as the anti-blizzard stuff. Spam late fairs, double fairs, nairs, dtilt. Fsmash only when you know it will connect, or if it will be a tipper on our shield. This matchup is so systematic that it's kinda disgusting for me to watch when Marth does it properly. I think this is why Ken was good at it and M2K was not... Ken was not afraid to just get in IC's face and spam moves.
Sheik: Spam shffl fair as fast as possible. Lead into jabs or tilts to stuff potential shield grabs, but jab is better. Sheik might have trouble getting into this position, but once she is there, she wins.
Puff: First of all, congratulations for getting in. Try to push us off with bairs or fsmashes, and force that double jump from one of the IC's. You will get a sure-kill on one of the IC's after that.
Ganon: You don't really need to challenge us directly. If you use the tip of your fair on our shield, it will generally only take one fair to push us really really far. Ganon has some trouble getting through the wall as well, but he really doesn't have to. If you want, though, you can use the platforms to approach at a diagonal angle. Otherwise, just stay at a good, Marth-like range, don't get grabbed, and bait out responses.
Doc: Use moves with high shield stun and push back. Jab, dsmash, delayed nair, and fair are pretty good. Dsmash is the best, and pretty much a go-to move if you get near us. IC's and Doc are actually very similar to each other, and just like the IC's ditto, whoever dsmashes first has a chance to secure the stock. Pills lead into any of these pretty well. (IC's usually need some roundabout way to hit Doc. They are equal to each other when it comes to direct confrontation on the ground, so as Doc just try to keep the upper hand.)
Peach: Honestly, Peach doesn't even need this position to do well. She wins with a solid, systematic neutral game. Use the mid-range to float above our heads and approach diagonally, or do low fc nairs to pressure.
Mario: Mario has a decent matchup vs IC's. Fair and fsmash have good range, and dsmash pushes our shields. His short hop in general is fast and can cover some horizontal distance, so do basic shield pressure once you're in our face and we can't do too much to respond. Mario has a bit of a speed advantage in the mid/close range. Your frames are a little better than ours, and you can follow up many things into the jab combo to make yourself safe. You can whiff punish with fsmash. Just don't get shield grabbed.
Luigi: Once Luigi gets in the range to prevent IC's wavedashes and projectile walls, which is easier said than done, he is in great shape. His double aerials are excellent shield pressure that push our shields out of shield grab range, and he is the only character to match our wavedash speed. It is not difficult to combat IC's once he has momentum because his ground mobility is superior. It is best to secure a lead first with Luigi and force IC's to approach him, because their projectiles are good at setting up defense against direct ground approaches when they have the lead. Forcing Luigi to jump makes it so much easier to fight him.
Falco: Ftilt and Fsmash are actually really good, and sometimes better than aerials. Laser ftilt, for example, cannot be shield grabbed when spaced correctly and will push us off the edge. Fsmash pushes us SO far that we can't shield grab any fsmash that isn't point blank. Perhaps we can shield SDI and shield grab, but it's still a good pushing move. You can also dair in place which will stuff any attempt we make at wding forward or dash attacking.
Falcon: Learn to L-cancel all your aerials VS our shield and suddenly everything becomes safe. Watch any match of S2J vs. Fly Amanita and you can see how strong aerial->gentleman is in this matchup. Falcon has to be super careful since he is the #1 easiest character to kill from one grab, so just nail L-cancels and you're fine. I think Hax is amazing at this matchup because he maneuvers in a way that never directly challenges IC's strengths. Just watch and learn here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPQq1k08YBU There are many times in this set where he just makes Fly want to approach and just bairs him for it.
Marth: Same as the anti-blizzard stuff. Spam late fairs, double fairs, nairs, dtilt. Fsmash only when you know it will connect, or if it will be a tipper on our shield. This matchup is so systematic that it's kinda disgusting for me to watch when Marth does it properly. I think this is why Ken was good at it and M2K was not... Ken was not afraid to just get in IC's face and spam moves.
Sheik: Spam shffl fair as fast as possible. Lead into jabs or tilts to stuff potential shield grabs, but jab is better. Sheik might have trouble getting into this position, but once she is there, she wins.
Puff: First of all, congratulations for getting in. Try to push us off with bairs or fsmashes, and force that double jump from one of the IC's. You will get a sure-kill on one of the IC's after that.
Ganon: You don't really need to challenge us directly. If you use the tip of your fair on our shield, it will generally only take one fair to push us really really far. Ganon has some trouble getting through the wall as well, but he really doesn't have to. If you want, though, you can use the platforms to approach at a diagonal angle. Otherwise, just stay at a good, Marth-like range, don't get grabbed, and bait out responses.
Doc: Use moves with high shield stun and push back. Jab, dsmash, delayed nair, and fair are pretty good. Dsmash is the best, and pretty much a go-to move if you get near us. IC's and Doc are actually very similar to each other, and just like the IC's ditto, whoever dsmashes first has a chance to secure the stock. Pills lead into any of these pretty well. (IC's usually need some roundabout way to hit Doc. They are equal to each other when it comes to direct confrontation on the ground, so as Doc just try to keep the upper hand.)
Peach: Honestly, Peach doesn't even need this position to do well. She wins with a solid, systematic neutral game. Use the mid-range to float above our heads and approach diagonally, or do low fc nairs to pressure.
Mario: Mario has a decent matchup vs IC's. Fair and fsmash have good range, and dsmash pushes our shields. His short hop in general is fast and can cover some horizontal distance, so do basic shield pressure once you're in our face and we can't do too much to respond. Mario has a bit of a speed advantage in the mid/close range. Your frames are a little better than ours, and you can follow up many things into the jab combo to make yourself safe. You can whiff punish with fsmash. Just don't get shield grabbed.
Luigi: Once Luigi gets in the range to prevent IC's wavedashes and projectile walls, which is easier said than done, he is in great shape. His double aerials are excellent shield pressure that push our shields out of shield grab range, and he is the only character to match our wavedash speed. It is not difficult to combat IC's once he has momentum because his ground mobility is superior. It is best to secure a lead first with Luigi and force IC's to approach him, because their projectiles are good at setting up defense against direct ground approaches when they have the lead. Forcing Luigi to jump makes it so much easier to fight him.
Keep in mind that one escape method is to roll past you. Sometimes I can just tell when someone is itching to commit. When they commit fully and get too close, I can roll past them and suddenly I am in the better position. Just stay in the mid range and use longer pokes that will eventually push us off.
Some people think that it's not good to grab IC's, but it can be okay as long as you choose a grab that can hit both of them. Grabs with hitboxes and invincible throws are good. Spacie's dthrows and most characters' fthrows/dthrows have some of these properties. Bthrows can cause separation, but will get you punished if you grab Nana and leave Popo to hit you.
#4 IC Weakness: Getting beneath them
IC's cannot challenge characters who are beneath them because their dair sucks. They have to find other ways to come back down. They can float down to the edge, try to air dodge down, or perhaps use side-B to change their trajectory. Watch everything they do and try to stay beneath them for as long as possible until you know you can hit them for sure. Our attacking options for coming down are dair, fair, and blizzard, and they are all pretty bad. Keep in mind that this weakness is not as exploitable as the others, but there are times that you will find yourself in this situation. Just think this: "Their dair sucks, and they fall slow."
There are two main ways to get beneath them: launching moves and baiting jumps.
Launching moves:
Falcon: Raptor boost is a classic. For some reason it can be difficult to shield grab, which makes it safe. Not all the time though. You can challenge our jumps with this move, though, and if it connects, it's a free kill on one of the IC's.
Fox: RANDOMLY running up and usmashing can be excellent. It works exactly the same as Falcon's raptor boost. We can't really shield grab this because it stuns and pushes us, and if it connects you can guarantee a chance to kill at least one of us.
Samus: Unlike Fox and Falcon, Samus doesn't need to aggressively approach to launch IC's. Rather, her missile game can force IC's to approach. The best moves to try to bait them into are dsmash, dtilt, and utilt. Samus is great at pressuring their landing and has an easy time killing Nana. The dsmash near the ledge that launches us off to the side is the most dangerous thing Samus can do to IC's, so standing near the ledge shooting missiles is actually a decent strategy because IC's need to really commit to approaching and put themselves at risk to be dsmashed. IC's are strong at fighting crouch cancels because their main attacking moves are smashes and grabs, so don't rely on cc.
Fox: RANDOMLY running up and usmashing can be excellent. It works exactly the same as Falcon's raptor boost. We can't really shield grab this because it stuns and pushes us, and if it connects you can guarantee a chance to kill at least one of us.
Samus: Unlike Fox and Falcon, Samus doesn't need to aggressively approach to launch IC's. Rather, her missile game can force IC's to approach. The best moves to try to bait them into are dsmash, dtilt, and utilt. Samus is great at pressuring their landing and has an easy time killing Nana. The dsmash near the ledge that launches us off to the side is the most dangerous thing Samus can do to IC's, so standing near the ledge shooting missiles is actually a decent strategy because IC's need to really commit to approaching and put themselves at risk to be dsmashed. IC's are strong at fighting crouch cancels because their main attacking moves are smashes and grabs, so don't rely on cc.
If you choose to run away, our main strategy to catch people is by using short or full hop uairs. If your character falls fast enough and we miss the uair, you can fall down and get under us.
#5 Edgeguarding IC's tips
Keep one thought in mind: We cannot sweetspot. All you have to do is wait.
Unless we use the up-b cancel nanapult trick on the ledge, in which case, just get surprised and flabbergasted!
Generally, the best way to recover with IC's is recover high with side-B. This can be hard to punish, but generally all you have to do is try to stay close to where they land. Even if you failed to hit them, you can just wait for them to come down and re-establish your position and get into the mid range.
How to edgeguard up-B: This confuses some people. Sometimes they don't know which one to attack! But this is actually a terrible recovery move that is easy to punish once you understand its properties.
- Nana is invincible and has a hitbox during her initial ascent. Wait until she descends.
- Popo goes much higher and has no hitbox. You can hit him during his ascent or on his way down. S2J is crazy and likes to knee Popo immediately.
- No matter how far into the stage Popo flies, Nana will ALWAYS choose to land near the edge. If you want to kill Nana, just wait in that spot, do not challenge her ascent, and wait for her to land. If there is a platform where she can land, she will land on the outside edge of the platform.
Teleporting properties: Popo's up-B will teleport Nana to him from great distances, but only under certain conditions:
- Nana must not be in hit stun
- Nana must not be in a tumble state
- Nana must not be grabbed
Popo's side-B can cancel almost any move Nana is doing (including taunt) and teleport her to him from short distances. Otherwise, he will just do a solo side-B.
In order to save Nana, she must still have her double jump. It is the only way for her to get out of the tumble state and allow her to join Popo in a recovery move. This means IC's can only recover from low, or about parallel to the ledge.
Synched side-B has very little lag. IC's can try to hit you with this and you can't really punish it. Solo side-B is very laggy and only has horizontal or falling movement. If he chooses to hit you, you can crouch cancel this and run toward wherever he lands.
Hopefully if you understand these things, you will never get confused by their recovery again. IC's up-B is really, really free.
* Conclusion *
I hope now you understand more about this unique character! This thread should give you many ideas. Even if you have zero experience in the matchup, this thread should be comprehensive enough that you could test out these strategies against computers, see how they work, and then apply them to real matches.
While other matchups are very dynamic (Falco vs Fox, Falcon vs marth) with many many options to choose from, fighting against IC's and their gimmicks can actually prove to be very systematic! Some characters, like Peach and Marth, can honestly win this matchup without even thinking. They only have to think and plan beforehand, then execute the strategy.
Hopefully I will get the chance to play people who read this thread, so that more people will know what to do in the matchup and help advance the metagame. I think IC's have historically been an important part of the metagame, but very enigmatic. They are one of the few characters that are actually good enough to beat Sheik and Puff.
Maybe this thread might even attract more IC players! But maybe not, since I just gave away all their weaknesses...
TL;DR IC'S BECOME ZANGIEF ONCE YOU TAKE AWAY THEIR WAVEDASH
Shoutouts to Russia, Fly_Amanita, indigenous Alaskans, and Red/White Santa Claus Climbers (Nana is in front when she is red/orange.)
all trail does is troll. HoChiMinhTroll.
