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Wario's Match-Ups!

Croi

Smash Lord
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Jun 10, 2010
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Halifax, Nova Scotia
I guess I could see him lying to me to make up for how he is a Marth and he keeps losing to Wario. But that's what he told me :/

So, how 'bout them Snakes
 

SSGuy

Smash Champion
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Is their any advantage for the Diddy Kong to go full aggro against you? If so, what can Wario do to counter this?
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
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If Diddy goes full aggro against Wario, he will likely get utterly destroyed. Dodge his stuff, punish him in his lag and really nail some good farts if they're being too aggro.
 

xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,139
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Okay, Snake:

First, I don't know why the heck this MU is considered 50/50. It's not. I know that Wario's bite ***** Snake if it actually hits the cypher during Snake's recovery, and that Wario can dodge Snake's grenades, but it all ends here. Wario's range is almost nothing compared to Snake's, and Snake can kill Wario easily than vice versa (if excluding farting, especially when Snake is recovering + biting his cypher during recovery).

Snake's range and hitboxes are so stupid that sometimes we can't even trade hits, and in some areas Snake is faster than us! >_> And on top of that, Snake has that annoying grab-release on us. Snake's grab range is annoyingly big, not to mention his pivot one. Seriously, we have to be utterly careful against Snake, and Wario must space like an idiot against him. It's great that we have a better aerial game and offstage game than Snake, luckily. And our tires should work well against Snake I think?

Spacing and finding openings against Snake is key here, and getting him offstage is a great opportunity to wall him and gimp him. The only thing Snake has to worry about (against Wario) is coming offstage and Wario's aerials. Ugh, I hate Snake and can't see this MU 50/50 at all. I would say it's -1 to us, mainly because of:

Snake's range >>> Wario's range
 

xzx

Smash Lord
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Also, I still can't change that title to "Currently discussing: Snake"...
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
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Go to the subforum view (where you can see all the threads) and double-click the area around your thread's title. It should let you change it to whatever you want.

Also, I would call this matchup relatively even. We can safely poke at him while he's in the air via U-Air and D-Air, and we shouldn't be on the ground enough for him to take advantage of our awful ground game much. Just...go away. It's safe to get the bike out here in most situations. Don't challenge him if you can help it. He's just too slow to have much on us.
 

waldorf2007

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I think of wario snake as like a terrible metaknight fighting snake, because we can devastate him if we can get him off edge. But our range otherwise is just stupid. Approaching from above is always risky, but often a choice. snake can uptilt through dair but if you get him into a pattern you can fastfall airdodge to grab. but then that's always liable to be read. hard. Bite is above average in this MU though, I'm pretty sure.
also rofl eating grenades
 

xzx

Smash Lord
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Go to the subforum view (where you can see all the threads) and double-click the area around your thread's title. It should let you change it to whatever you want.

Also, I would call this matchup relatively even. We can safely poke at him while he's in the air via U-Air and D-Air, and we shouldn't be on the ground enough for him to take advantage of our awful ground game much. Just...go away. It's safe to get the bike out here in most situations. Don't challenge him if you can help it. He's just too slow to have much on us.
Ooohh, thanks! Yeah, Wario's juggle game on Snake is really good actually! xD
 

Iota

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This MU is pretty even. Wario can avoid Snake's camp game pretty easily thanks to his air mobility, his nades are generally just there to catch us if we do something stupid or hit his shield with a poorly spaced aerial otherwise we can just avoid them without them doing anything useful for Snake. We shouldn't be challenging his aerials or tilts, he has too much range and priority in them, we can punish his attacks fairly easily by weaving into his bubble and punishing with an aerial during his lag thanks to our air mobility however.

Going to write more once I eat something~
 

Croi

Smash Lord
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I think it's even. Just from playing Ally that one time, I never really felt that the flow of the match was spiraling so wildly out of hand that there was nothing I could do against him. Heck, I managed to take a match off him (I mean, not to brag, he still **** all over me in the end). But at the same time, I felt like I had only a few options and opportunities to really try and dig into him. Snake walls Wario really well and it takes a lot to weave into him.

So I think it's even, just imo.
 

Lord Chair

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I've played every relevant Snake in Europe (Crysis, Akuma, Mr. R and Calzorz), plus Razer, Ally and Squall. I don't really think there's any reason to assume this MU is heavily in either character's favor, the current ratio system doesn't differentiate between 0, +1 and -1 too much so I'd just go with 'even', Wario's advantage with stupid stagelists the States still tend to come up with so every now and then.

There's not too much to say about the MU. Both characters have clear counterplay options against everything the other character has, it takes a bit of time for either player to be forced to commit to anything but those moments are inevitable. I won't be telling anything new if I say that both characters can exploit each other's commitments really well, but I'm pretty sure most non-top level Snakes gravely fail to understand how Wario's **** really works. Juggles are overestimated, edgeguarding and ledgeguarding are underrated.

Wario's grab isn't what will end up starting a **** train most of the time, it'll be an aerial. Especially fair is a really overlooked tool, Snake doesn't really have a solid answer to it aside of walking away and utilting or ftilting, the latter two being quite a commitment that would otherwise be punished fairly heavily. Snake cannot afford to allow himself to be zoned away, Wario cannot allow Snake to camp without being pressured. Pressure, in this matchup, means having to react, to anything.

Snake's pivot grab is good, but people stress it too much as a means of being an approach counter. It lasts rather long and pretty much means you instantly lose a lot of stage control because you're not spending time setting up explosives. It does beat or go even with nigh every approach, but that isn't always what is to be expected. Overcommitting to pivot grabs will make sure you will also have to commit to disadvantageous situations, like being cornered to the ledge or in your shield without nade covering.
Statement: almost everyone plays this MU either too aggro or too campy.
 

Waymas

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 30, 2008
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464
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Mexico
Pretty much this match is even.. why?

Snake has more range than wario.. yea everyone know that.. But what can we do? Bait snake everytime you can. Fair pokes work alot and the most important part on this match is you have to take him off stage so u can punish him , bite cypher etc etc. Also keep in mind you can easily dodge his grenades. Also remember you can dthrow him to dtilt :). Bite is really useful on this MU and the worst thing you can do here is DJ Dair cause that pretty much is a free pivot for snake. Tires can give u some control on the stage so use em wisely!.

Again 50-50
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
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Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
Lord Chair you are utterly brilliant! Such a fantastic take on the Wario - Snake matchup hasn't been seen by my eyes!

Edgeguarding is really where Wario shines against Snake. If Snake airdodges, Wario can punish with Nair, grab and Fsmash to keep him off the stage. Honestly though nobody in my area b reversals at all.... I don't really have much IRL experience with it besides playing Havok and a few other Cali Snakes. Wario's grab won't detonate grenades, so if you can predict where your opponent will land with a B reverse grenade pull, you can keep grabbing them and throwing. Be careful of Snake's Bair being thrown out as a counter!

It's really a rock, paper scissors scenario!
 

xzx

Smash Lord
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Wario's pummel can detonate the grenades though. The hitstun dealt is dependent on which controller port priority you have.

xzx: -1
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Labernash

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This MU is even. Wario air game eats Snake up. Thing is, we can't stay airborne forever.

50/50
 

xzx

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@Labernash: Snake's nair eats us up! =( Oh, and the pivot grab too.

@Pwneroni: I know, but it's hard since Snake pulling out a grenade takes 1 frame! ='(
D-throwing Snake will detonate the grenade, same with B-throwing him (if the grenade is behind), and F-throwing him is just too laggy since he's heavy. Up-throwing him is the safest, but F-throwing him works fine too if you have time.

xzx: -1
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Pwneroni

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If you predict Snake's Ftilt, you can get in the bike and RIDE right through it! xD
 

Pwneroni

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Yup :) the bike has armor frames that power through the Ftilt if you time it right. If Snake is at high enough percent it hits him into the air with good DI, bad DI possibly off the stage (where Wario shines against Snake).
 

xzx

Smash Lord
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Yeah, it's true that we can SDI his nair...

Yeah, Pwneroni, I know what you mean, but that is hard to do. Most likely we will be hit by the f-tilt anyway. But I always love when the bike is laying on the ground, and Snake wants to f-tilt us (when we are next to the bike). If he does, he will PICK up the bike! Free charged F-smash/fart!! =D
 

Lord Chair

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Yup :) the bike has armor frames that power through the Ftilt if you time it right. If Snake is at high enough percent it hits him into the air with good DI, bad DI possibly off the stage (where Wario shines against Snake).
It has nothing to do with armor frames, those only work up to ~3%.

What you talk about it Snake failing to properly time his ftilt by hitting only the bike, it's not something you can rely on and will likely result into you getting ftilted.
 

waldorf2007

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if you bike as he does the first hit of ftilt he can shield or up tilt. it only works if you are biking TOWARDS him as he ftilts AND he both reacts badly and (as a result) does the 2nd ftilt hit. tested for like an hour because I hate the matchup.
 

Pwneroni

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Yeah it's a bit risky, but if you time it right then it does work. The bike is a separate entity, has armor and shields you from stuff (like energy projectiles and normal attacks) while maintaining a moving hitbox.

Using the bike to counter ground moves can be really good, if a bit difficult and moderately risky. Best used against low range moves, but if you mix it up and get some reads then it can be a cool maneuver. Imagine doing an instant wipeout after you hit the opponent! You could follow up while having a bouncing bike covering your back! *drool*

 

xzx

Smash Lord
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The bike is really good on this MU (grenade blocking, Snake accidently picking up the bike with f-tilt, tire rain and the bike throw on his recovery for eventual heavy damage to name a few). I hate this MU and I really hate how Snake outranges us. His pivot grab and up-tilt (hitboxes) are just ridicolous!
 

xzx

Smash Lord
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Since I suppose we have finished discussing Snake, let's move on to Olimar. Let's start discussing him, and don't forget to add a ratio! Go!
 

Anragon

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Jan 25, 2011
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179
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Paris
Never land near him, prefer SH/FH buffered Fair/ Dair/Nair and retreating.

Wario can be a real pain for Olimar to catch due to his awesome mobility, I suggest using hit-and-run tactics. You want him offstage or in the air, where you can pressure and deal good damages(gimp offstage).

Bike does a good job when you want to get in but don't use too often tough.
Bite isn't that good, unless you want to mix-up.
Fart is only available when Olimar is offstage or does a mistake you have mindgamed.(AD, Laggy landing)

N-air will do the job to get Pikmins out of you. Beware of U-air, it can crush you.

This MU completely relies on punishing imo.

Ratio, hum... I need opinions from you guys.
50-50 maybe 55-45 Olimar(I will stay on this one)
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
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Sep 26, 2008
Messages
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Tires can effectively combat pikmin side b spam if used correctly! The tires, if they collide with a pikmin flying through the air, will kill the pikmin (if it ain't a purp) and bounce back toward you. If Olimar is spamming side b, you can block all the pikmin by constantly instant fthrowing the tires. TIRE BARRAGE GO!

If you have pikmin on you, passing through a bouncing tire will kill some of them since they all have separate hurtboxes. If you have a tire in your hand, you can standing Dthrow it to destroy the pikmin, effectively protecting your better moves from degradation and unstaling them simultaneously. I am not sure, but each tire hit could possibly count as 1 stale move slot. Testing needed.

This matchup is very fun and interesting! Wario has great airspeed, so he can weave and dance around Olimar until a weak point opens up. Olimar will be trying to create space and play keepaway, using Usmash and Uair to counter your vertical approaches. His ground game is very effective against Wario, so that is where he will try to bring the fight. Wario cannot challenge Olimar's high priority aerials (except maybe a white pikmin), so be sure to be constantly spacing and weaving. If you bait or predict the aerial, you can punish with a plethora of Wario moves. Take your pick.

Off the stage is where Wario has the upper hand. Olimar is susceptible to being gimped, but if he uses his down B armor effectively then it will be tougher to edgeguard him. To my knowledge, Dair and Bite will beat his whistle armor. Wario's Dair will get armored through, but since it has so many hits the last few will connect with Olimar unarmored.

Wario's Nair and Jab are really good for comboing Olimar! Jab sets up perfectly for a grab at low to mid percents, and Nair (especially Nair2) can lead into a grab easily.

IMO the matchup is +0 for Wario vs Olimar. Wario has a few good things against him, but a smart Olimar will not be an easy fight.
 
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