Wario's Match-Ups!

Pwneroni · Jun 7, 2012

LOL Lord Chair you are hilarious haha. Omg xD

Hmmmm Marthy Moo.... honestly I like playing a bit campier in this matchup, since Marth can really shut down a lot of Wario's approaches. He cannot really punish a fullhop bike ride, so it is quite a safe way to get your bike out on the stage. His down B can make things a bit tricky if you get predictable with your bike, and his sword also easily slices through tires from really far away. Uthrown tires are probably your best bet, since they will be further away from Marth and less in danger of being sliced and diced, and help with relative stage control.

It's also really annoying how Nair1 doesn't combo into Nair2, Marth can Fair you or UpB in between the hits. His UpB in general makes it less safe to be aggressive, since it is so fast and has invincibility on it's startup frames. Obviously if you can predict an UpB it will be beneficial, you can even listen for their mashing of the controller to tell when they are trying to UpB xD

I would say that the matchup is -1 for Wario. Marth has a really painful grab release to reverse tipper Fsmash..... OWCH. DAMN. It really hurts, but Wario can avoid getting grabbed reasonably well. Oh and Marth's side B is a really **** punish, very quick and does decent damage, as well as refreshing his stronger moves.

One serious advantage Wario has on Marth is against Marth's recovery. Uthrowing a bike or tire on the edge of the stage, and then precisely grabbing the ledge can rack up some serious damage. Marth can be forced to UpB into a bouncing bike for serious damage, or a bouncing tire for a combo into Uair/Fart. For lols you can side B to try and hit Marth in midair with the bike, you can possibly make it a lot harder for him to recover and worst case scenario you eat a Fair to the Face.

xzx · Jun 7, 2012

TheReflexWonder: -2
xzx: -2
Lord Chair: -2
Sensei Seibrik: -1
Croi: -2
Pwneroni: -1

Labernash · Jun 9, 2012

I'm going to say -1 just to be a hipster. We have the tools to beat him, But, it's easily one of Wario's worst. I threw a tire up today near the ledge, and the Marth could only recover if he went directly to the ledge. It's worth putting out there, imo.

Brittleorgans · Jun 9, 2012

I'll contribute for once.

I'm going -2 for Wario I was on the fence before reading Lord Chairs stuff.
In my experiences i get a lot of nasty trades in the air which makes the MU annoying. (Dunno if that is just me) Its fun to psych out a Marth when a tire is in hand by just simply throwing it forward. Grab release sucks for Wario whenever it comes up and waft is tough to land most of the time.

xzx · Jun 9, 2012

TheReflexWonder: -2
xzx: -2
Lord Chair: -2
Sensei Seibrik: -1
Croi: -2
Pwneroni: -1
Labernash: -1
Brittleorgans: -2

It's hard to trade with Marth...

Brittleorgans · Jun 9, 2012

Eh, i guess its just my bad self then. They weren't super abundant anyways and they only happened whenever i would sneak past the tip of the blade on his fair.

xzx · Jun 9, 2012

When facing Marth one must look for openings and punish, just like against Ike. Marth wrecks Wario. Marth's ultra-range (which is disjointed) and frame data is better than Wario's. Luckily Marth isn't that good at juggling Wario. At times we could get those trades (especially nair and fair) but it won't be too many. Not saying it is impossible to trade with Marth, but finding openings against him is a better way to damage him. Oh, and never ever land near him.

xzx · Jun 12, 2012

I have invited the Marths. (Sorry for double post)

Lord Chair · Jun 12, 2012

I don't think it's correct to state that Marth's frame data is strictly that much better, we can definitely compete in that regard. Whenever it does get to be a frame munching competition we're actually on the winning side because trades are in our favor.

Not just for clarity's sake, but also for the sake of understanding the MU.

Ayce God · Jun 12, 2012

marth is -1 for wario

M@v · Jun 12, 2012

Yeah this is probably a -2 for wario. As people have mentioned Marth can outspace and out zone wario all day long. Also if you let yourself get grabbed, marth has a stupid number of guaranteed follow-ups to the grab release, ones that are good at damage if your low percent(Upsmash) and killing you early(Tipper Fsmash, Tipper uptilt, and I believe tipper upair works too).

Ayce God · Jun 12, 2012

sorry, I meant -2 bc wario has alot of options vs marth, but marth can still shut it down. I recently saw reflex lose to a marth player he shouldn't have loss too.

Raziek · Jun 12, 2012

I play Croi all the time, so I guess I'll chip in on this.

I think it's -1 in the long run, but there are times when it feels like Wario can't do ANYTHING and would lean towards -2. Marth really only has a hard time if he ends up offstage, or overcommits and gets wafted for it.

As stage lists get more conservative, it definitely leans more towards Marth. My ban is almost always Brinstar. If that is gone I ban RC or Frigate. RC significantly impedes the typical zoning gameplay Marth wants to play in this match-up, and Frigate makes punishes a lot more painful should Marth make a mistake.

I really just want to call this a -1.5

If Marth doesn't mess up, -2. If he does, -1.

xzx · Jun 12, 2012

@Lord Chair: Not on the ground I think. I think Marth has a better frame data in general... Yes, we should trade as much as possible but getting outspaced is what happens alot in this MU. Not all the time, but alot, if the Marth knows the MU well. We trade hits at best (if we don't find openings where Marth "don't attack at all"). Thankfully Wario has some tools to avoid Marth's slashes (i.e. his great air dodge). Otherwise it is a struggling battle for Wario. Or it should be. Maybe not if you happen to have "Glutonny" as your gamer tag...

TheReflexWonder: -2
xzx: -2
Lord Chair: -2
Sensei Seibrik: -1
Croi: -2
Pwneroni: -1
Labernash: -1
Brittleorgans: -2
nova 9: -2
M@v: -2
Raziek: -2 (I'll take it as -2...)

Thank guys for the inputs! =)

Pierce7d · Jun 12, 2012

I think the Wario boards actually know what's up. I'll be back if you have a specific question, but I feel like if I were to go over the basics, it would be redundant.

Luigi player · Jun 12, 2012

It's even!!!!!!! [COLLAPSE=""] :troll:

[/COLLAPSE]

Lord Chair · Jun 12, 2012

You can tell me whether I should SDI the first (feet) hitbox of Marth's usmash towards him or away from him to prevent the main hitbox from connecting.

Luigi player · Jun 12, 2012

Isn't that unSDIable?

Player-3 · Jun 12, 2012

i think it's an even matchup but im probably wrong

TheReflexWonder · Jun 12, 2012

Luigi player said:
Isn't that unSDIable?

I'm pretty sure the only un-SDI-able move of Marth's is tipper F-Smash. If I'm wrong, I'm even more sure that any other potential un-SDI-able moves of Marth's are still tippered attacks.

Lord Chair · Jun 12, 2012

marth's only cinematic hitlag animation is tipper fsmash, everything else can be SDId just fine

ive done it before i just rammed random directions like i do whenever any move hits me

(S!C) · Jun 12, 2012

xzx said:
Yes, they are? Think of how much better Brawl would be without stupid CGs, meaningless infinites and dumb grab-releases.

But can we CG Bowser or not? S!C's posts confused me. =)

yes we can!

edit: @topic: marth vs wario = imo even

Player-1 · Jun 12, 2012

Player-3 said:
i think it's an even matchup but im probably wrong

ya you are wrong, it's +1 wario.

xzx · Jun 12, 2012

TheReflexWonder: -2
xzx: -2
Lord Chair: -2
Sensei Seibrik: -1
Croi: -2
Pwneroni: -1
Labernash: -1
Brittleorgans: -2
nova 9: -2
M@v: -2
Raziek: -2
(S!C): 0

Waymas · Jun 12, 2012

uhmm lets see this matchup is a pain on the *** and i hate marth a lot , because its really hard to approach him and if you time to grab him sometimes he will up b you and thats ******** , tires help you but marth can easily get rid of em, still its worth the try.

But..... we got some tools to gimp marth like a full charged waft since you get super armor if you hit him on the head while hes recovering the waft will hit him you can try the half 2 mins waft but is kinda risky. Or you can fair him when hes recovering. Avoid grabs at all costs since tipper can kill you at really low percents.

IMO -1

xzx · Jun 13, 2012

TheReflexWonder: -2
xzx: -2
Lord Chair: -2
Sensei Seibrik: -1
Croi: -2
Pwneroni: -1
Labernash: -1
Brittleorgans: -2
nova 9: -2
M@v: -2
Raziek: -2
(S!C): 0
Player-3: 0
Buff: -1

Iota · Jun 15, 2012

Bump

-2 MU imo. Wario can try challenging Marth's fair with spaced bairs if he times it right. Avoid getting above Marth or offstage, Marth can basically just screw us over there with his range and speed. Marth can punish us if we AD through his fair if he's spacing backwards (which he should be doing most of the time). If you get Marth offstage you can do a lot of damage to him with fair pokes and such. Even if you can't gimp him with an edgehog grab the ledge anyway that way he'll land on the stage instead. This'll put him in the position to be clapped or wafted.

Even though we can damage him really hard offstage getting him in that position is very hard as long as he's playing safe and just going for pokes. He has a much easier time putting us in a poor position than we do to him basically.

2cents\

xzx · Jun 16, 2012

TheReflexWonder: -2
xzx: -2
Lord Chair: -2
Sensei Seibrik: -1
Croi: -2
Pwneroni: -1
Labernash: -1
Brittleorgans: -2
nova 9: -2
M@v: -2
Raziek: -2
(S!C): 0
Player-3: 0
Buff: -1
Iota: -2

It feels that we are done with Marth, so next up is Pikachu! =3

Lord Chair · Jun 16, 2012

pikachu is gay and bad and relies on you messing up big time

even

more later

*Cam* · Jun 16, 2012

It's +1 in Pikachu's favor because he doesn't have to play. He can just run away from Wario with uairs and pivot grabs, and Wario has a tough time chasing him.

I would say +2, but Pikachu can't kill Wario worth jack. You are literally the least thunder-able character in the game, and fsmashing is not nearly as safe against you as it is the other 37 some odd characters.

Pikachu can down throw to nair or down throw to upsmash Wario starting at ~25 or 30% and ending ~70%. Pikachu can't guarantee an air release on Wario, so that's good for you guys.

TheReflexWonder · Jun 16, 2012

Wario is the poster-child of not having to play, and Wario's pokes lead to more on average.

I'd call it even, since both characters are difficult to pin down at any point, and both have pretty solid, useful options on each other.

Sensei Seibrik · Jun 16, 2012

imho

its 55/45 pika

still even, (i prolly have the most high lvl exp in this mu btw lol)

but i feel like pika outzones wario so hard cuz he's actually fast AND has that uair that shuts out so many of our moves, even if we're just spacing.

it's a very annoying, yet fun, battle for stage control

but yeah pikachu doesn't rly have anything to heavy on wario, and vise versa

also i decided i'm gona go full regular yellow wario, so in honor of that my text will forever be yellow.

DEAL with it!

-tru wario main-

Labernash · Jun 16, 2012

I'd actually say +1 Wario. You just have to be comfortable with it, then Pika isn't very hard. There's a hitbox when Pika hits the ground during his D-air, which caught me off guard quite a bit, but I figured it out, now, shield grab. Don't chase him under the stage, 'cause he can up-b through your bike and you'll die and be salty. If get grabbed and thrown, wherever it goes, just mash airdodge and move away unless you feel he'll thunder. His U-air has some pretty impressive range through the bottom of the stage, so stand back, but when he is on the ledge, stand there and F-tilt him when he tries to jump up and F-air.

Whenever I get D-smashed, I just spam up on both sticks, and I get out before the last hitbox. If you hit his shield with a SH F-air, you should be able to weave out of his F-smashes range. If he Perfect Shields it, he'll either run and grab you, or run and F-smash depending on %. If the latter, bike away, and you'll still have your Double Jump when you're trying to land after you hop off the bike. Don't stay on the ledge too long, he will gimp you with Thunderjolts so quick. You CAN U-air his D-air, but it's really really hard to get it, and it'll trade. So only at low % and you're ready to kill him. He will wavebounce Thunders, too, so when you see him lag just floating in the air, don't chase him. His U-air won't be too much of a problem if you're willing to take some damage. Just cross up, then N-air. If you both take %, after a while he'll stop U-air camping, because he's about to die, and you're still going to live for another 100%. Don't D-air him when above him, U-air will beat it. Just space a F-air, and weave in after his U-air when you get beside him.

Because we have more poke freedom, we kill early as poop, die late as poop, and can fairly safely avoid his damage, I'd say +1. Not +2, because you WILL get caught. Most of the time, you'll lose a stock if you're playing the MU perfectly. Just have to become familiar with what he can do.

+1 Wario

Also, Pika and Wario are good together in dubs.

Croi · Jun 16, 2012

In the grand scheme of things, I'd say it's even. The biggest thing, imo, to look out for, is when Pikachu hits you high, you have to fight your reflexes to momentum cancel because you bet your *** he's going to try and Thunder you. You have to airdodge instead. It took me a while to break that habit.

xzx · Jun 17, 2012

Hate it when one cannot delete oneself's post. Sorry for this.

xzx · Jun 17, 2012

I would say this MU is even, but it could be in Pikachu's favour as well. Pikachu is overall quicker than us. His up-air and up-tilt are good for blocking Wario's approach. Biking in this MU is good since it will run over most of Pikachu's attacks and suck up the thunder jolts. Avoid the aerial ones or just wheel upwards to suck them. Don't be to predictable with it (the bike) though. The tires are not very good here since Pikachu is good at eliminating them with his electrical attacks, most notable his thunder jolts. Tires are good when edge guarding and pressuring him. Pikachu's air game is good and it feels that we cannot trade with him so much... Punishing him is what Wario is good at. Pikachu's d-throw is really good since he can nair us after it. (I think Pikachu's nair is amazingly good against Wario.) Look out for his thunder when above him and as soon as you get high in the air, move away as far from Pikachu as possible. Wario has the mobility to do this. This for avoiding his thunder and use your air dodge well. We shouldn't have much problem with this though but you never know with the electrical rodent. Oh, and Pikachu can chaingrab us on Halberd's second transformation on either side of the platform. Avoid it at all costs since it is a stock gone for us.

But overall, Pikachu's quickness and range (electrical) is a pain for Wario and it is sometimes hard to land hits on Pikachu. Chasing Pikachu is hard (he is a mouse - duh!); it's like Tom & Jerry. Pikachu is the fourth lightest character in the game so we kill him early, especially with up-air. This could be in Pikachu's favour but if both play carefully, it is anyone's game.

---------------------
Lord Chair: 0
*Cam*: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Sensei Seibrik: -1/0 (decide!)
Labernash: +1
Croi: 0
xzx: 0

TheReflexWonder · Jun 17, 2012

Pikachu has one of the "heaviest" fastfalls in the game. It's not especially easy to kill him off the top.

xzx · Jun 17, 2012

He's still one of the lightest characters in Brawl! =P Maybe f-smash will do! Or f-tilt! <3

Lord Chair · Jun 17, 2012

his horizontal momentum cancel is also really really ****ing good

for all intents and purposes you can just consider him a middle weight

xzx · Jun 17, 2012

But wow! Didn't know Pikachu was that good at surviving. But how do you guys approach a Pikachu?

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