Spire's Alternate Evolution Pokédex

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:boognish:

I must say, Spire, I'm highly impressed with this. Castform certainly lived up to my expectations, and type changes here and there were also quite welcomed (Such as Haxorus becoming Dragon/Rock, and Kabutop's Bug/Rock adjustment.

The evolutionary chains themselves were also a shocker here and there, such as Cubone & Duskull's connections in their evolutionary chains, making the one of the longest ones.

I think the final touch that made me go "This is truly a work of art" would have to be how the Starters connected with Starters of the original's weakness, such as Turtwig becoming either Grotle or Wartortle (Grass beats Water), or Charmander's line branching into either Sceptile or Charizard (With Charizard being stronger against Sceptile).


All-in-all, a fantastic job! I honestly don't think I could have pulled it off any better myself. One thing that does confuse me, however, is how do the High Personality and Low Personality traits work? I know Wurmple used it for Cascoon and Silcoon, but I always felt it was completely random.

Thank you! First of all, I don't have a robust understanding of exactly how Pokémon evolve, and so I resorted to the personality traits yielding alternate evolutions. Mostly, I wanted to create convergent Pokémon chains with a random factor in evolution. For instance: you may raise a Xatu all the way to Lv. 60, but you don't know whether you'll get Ho-oh or Lugia. Ultimately they're equal in the long run, but it's that uncertainty that peaked my interest. After all, we never know how exactly we'll turn out in our own lives—I think that was the driving force behind the personality-driven evolutions. I wanted to dissolve a bit the player's choice in raising a team so that the auto-calculated system would lend them [by fate] the Pokémon to-be. Here, read Bulbapedia's page on Personality Value. Maybe you'll understand it more than I!

Thanks again for the feedback. The driving force to finish this little project of mine was honestly your enthusiasm. Really, thanks

Spire said:

Thank you! First of all, I don't have a robust understanding of exactly how Pokémon evolve, and so I resorted to the personality traits yielding alternate evolutions. Mostly, I wanted to create convergent Pokémon chains with a random factor in evolution. For instance: you may raise a Xatu all the way to Lv. 60, but you don't know whether you'll get Ho-oh or Lugia. Ultimately they're equal in the long run, but it's that uncertainty that peaked my interest. After all, we never know how exactly we'll turn out in our own lives—I think that was the driving force behind the personality-driven evolutions. I wanted to dissolve a bit the player's choice in raising a team so that the auto-calculated system would lend them [by fate] the Pokémon to-be. Here, read Bulbapedia's page on Personality Value. Maybe you'll understand it more than I!

Thanks again for the feedback. The driving force to finish this little project of mine was honestly your enthusiasm. Really, thanks

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I read pretty much every part of that article now, but I can't make heads or tails of all that binary coding there. Hurts my brain too much trying to understand the binary. x.x

And I like the driving force you had behind the personality-driven evolutions. It is so true that we never truly know how we'll turn out in our own lives. That would be a good life lesson to live by.

For an odd example, we take videogames with a direct story-driven plot and we just go with it. We never truly stop and get the chance to do whatever, and let our choices drive our character's future. The only kinds of games I can imagine that in are RPGs such as, but not limited to, the Fallout franchise and the Elder Scrolls franchise. There are certainly more examples, just in RPGs, but I cannot for the life of me figure any more out. Not to mention other magnificent games that give nearly endless sidequests, such as the legend of Zelda franchise.

You're quite welcome. It's these kinds of little projects people do that make me love a gaming community in its entirety. It could explain why I've always enjoyed Pokemon TRPGs, as there's always that feeling of something fresh and new.

In fact, just reading your evolutionary chains makes me think of my old Pokemon TRPG that I keep desperately trying to revive, but always ends in failure. I did enjoy coming up with elaborate concepts, but never ended up finishing any of them.

You should revive it.

Peace,
:boognish:

This is amazing, so much so that I think its value may be lost here. You should try posting this at PokeCommunity, they have a huge ROM hacking scene, some people might be interested in using this.

I love how this incorporates the Pokemon evolution Venn diagram. I really like the concept of longer and more complex evolution chains, one of my favorite things about Touhoumon.

Some thoughts off the top of my head:

What's up with separating Zapdos from Articuno and Moltres?
Maybe add Omastar to the Shuckle tree?
Any reason Magmortar, Electivire, Rhyperior and some other stuff like them aren't here? Just on cut down on clutter?
Natu > Noctowl? (everyone knows Noctowl is part Psychic) More Flying-type lines could be combined, if you ask me.
Combine Houndour and Poocheyna lines?
Cleffa > Snubbull is a bit forced imo

If I was to revive it, I'd most certainly want to do an Alternative Evolution Dex, as it brings a whole new look at the series. Might even adjust Level-Up moves and abilities and whatnot.

You know what. Your project has given me inspiration. I think I'm going to do just that. Thank you!

Some evols surprised me, but overall it was a very enjoyable read. I loved what you did with the starters.

The Pers Value thing is pretty cool, too.

Wave⁂ said:

What's up with separating Zapdos from Articuno and Moltres?
Maybe add Omastar to the Shuckle tree?
Any reason Magmortar, Electivire, Rhyperior and some other stuff like them aren't here? Just on cut down on clutter?
Natu > Noctowl? (everyone knows Noctowl is part Psychic) More Flying-type lines could be combined, if you ask me.
Combine Houndour and Poocheyna lines?
Cleffa > Snubbull is a bit forced imo

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Thanks Wave! Good to hear from you again as well. Been a while. Now to answer your questions:
• I separated Zapdos from Articuno and Moltres because, well... hmm. Suppose I wanted to levy Skarmory as a fourth Legendary Bird (while lowering their overall potential as well), equalizing it with Zapdos while sequestering Moltres and Articuno to their own chain, derivative of Torchic. I got caught up with the idea of, "well the first two stages of said family are fire, while the third is a continuation of fire or potentially ice, allowing for an interesting approach to choosing movesets," when devising a lot of families. With some revising they could merge because to be honest, I find it odd that Zapdos appears so early in the Pokédex.

• Omastar is a nautilus, while Shuckle is a sea fungus. I have great respect for mollusks and would not want to arbitrarily force them together. Sure, some of my merges may seem questionable, but I have to apply a certain amount of logic. Omastar just would not work. Golem on the other hand never seemed to fit the Geodude line, possessing more in common with Shuckle (believe it or not) than his canonical prevolutions. Shuckle is a creature coming out of holes in a rock. So is Golem.

• Never liked Magmortar and Electivire. I'm boycotting them. I originally devised Rhyperior to be an evolution of both Rhydon and Aggron when the Rhyhorn family was separate from the Nidoran family, but upon merging the two, Rhyperior would have become a fourth stage Pokémon and that just can't happen. I'm willing to break some rules, but not that.

• I love Xatu. As a colorful totemic Psychic bird, I saw potential in it evolving into Ho-oh (colors) and Lugia (typing). Trust me, I wanted to include Noctowl (and I suppose I still could...) Adjustments to the Pokédex are unavoidable. Some Pokémon will be added, others may get cut (looking at you Seel). All in all, there are two things that must stay consistent in the numbering: Carnivine must be #100 and Darkrai and Co***rigus must be #150 and #151. That was coincidental in my arranging of the dex and I love it. Again, I have to act within reasonable bounds. Even though there are a lot of bird pokémon, owls can't just be grouped with any other bird. They are very unique. This is why I opted out of including the Piplup family, because Delibird is the only thing they could logically merge with (and maybe Articuno with a stretch, only because of its close typing and common coloring).

• Look at the Gen V Houndour, Houndoom, and Arcanine sprites together. Arcanine possesses the orange underbody of Houndour as well as its canine hanging over the lower lip. As they're both Fire type, Arcanine had to be merged into the family. Growlithe could not evolve into both Arcanine and Houndoom because it shares little traits with Houndoom whereas Houndour with a Sun Stone (shedding light on the Dark trait) evolves the pup into the virtuous Arcanine, all fluffy and proud as ever. Poochyena with a Fire Stone would logically evolve into Houndoom, but the physical traits are not as close as the aforementioned. I wanted badly to include Vulpix instead, but Poochyena somehow made more sense in a tri-evolution with Mightyena, Manectric, and Ninetails.

• Of course Cleffa would evolve into Snubbull! The Clefairy and Snubbull families are the only ones known as "Fairy Pokémon". Snubbull and Granbull were obviously created as spiritual successors to Clefairy and Clefable. Cleffa is small and ambiguous enough that with a low personality (and just enough happiness), would evolve into the grumpy Snubbull. Its even got brown ears, as Snubbull's earlocks are tipped black.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I will take your opinions into full account when revising my Pokédex. I know there are some choices that could be amended with scrutinization, and I know I may have overlooked some worthwhile Pokémon. I would love to include Sentret without overkilling a massive rodent chain.

Was surprised by no Xatu / Sigilyph relation, though Lugia and Ho-Oh work too. Cofrafrigus out of Marowak surprised me a lot.

Your typing is also peculiar. You're straving a lot from actual Pokémon typing, which would make move-sets weird. Wartortle with Leech Seed? What?

Was surprised at no Houndoom at Poochyena or Mightyena after Houndour. Talking about dogs, did I miss Suicune/Entei/Raikou or is that just me?

Lemme look and edit this post with more comments.

Oshawott > Quilava? 2 legs > 4? It happens with Meowth but... still weird. Would sooner switch Persian and Meowth.
Kabutops when level up with bug bite? Makes more sense to switch Scyther and Heracross, then unlock Scyther/Kabutops if Sword Dance?
Aggron takes a Fire Stone? Why?
Ninetails out of Poochyena? That's weird. Dog > Wolf makes sense, Dog > Fox does not.
Houndour > Arcanine is weird because he loses his mask thingy.
Kadabra > Lucario is weird. Zoroark makes sense though.
Farfetch'd > Swanna I can stomach... somewhat. Swanna > Cresselia is just wacko though. That would have to be an event or something, because disregarding all previous typing to go to LEGENDARY PSYCHIC is a bit weird.
Steelix with Fire Stone is, once again, weird.
Starmie > Jirachi is weird because Starmie has a double star. Staryu > Jirachi would be more logical.
Absol is too large to be an eeveelution.
Togetic > Froslass is wack.
Gligar > Drapion is weird. Lose all typing AND wings?
Btw, I'd switch personalities between Gyara and Milo.

Xonar said:

Was surprised by no Xatu / Sigilyph relation, though Lugia and Ho-Oh work too. Cofrafrigus out of Marowak surprised me a lot.

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Ahh, I did not consider the like postures of Xatu and Sigilyph, both deriving from Native American inspiration. You see the Unown relation though, right? I may devise a way to merge the two families without enabling Unown the ability of evolving into Lugia and Ho-oh. I suppose Natu or Xatu could evolve into Sigilyph with a certain move or item.

Your typing is also peculiar. You're straving a lot from actual Pokémon typing, which would make move-sets weird. Wartortle with Leech Seed? What?

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That's the point. Changes the game a lot, doesn't it?

Was surprised at no Houndoom at Poochyena or Mightyena after Houndour. Talking about dogs, did I miss Suicune/Entei/Raikou or is that just me? Ninetails out of Poochyena? That's weird. Dog > Wolf makes sense, Dog > Fox does not. Houndour > Arcanine is weird because he loses his mask thingy.

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All in all, they're canines, and they physically resemble one another—despite differing as dogs, wolves, and foxes. The Legendary Beasts aren't specifically dog or cat, but possess traits of both. It's why I could find no true use for them (I considered making them evolutions of Vaporeon, Jolteon, and Flareon, but that would leave the other Eeveelutions without equal evolutions, and I can't have that imbalance). Speaking of...

Absol is too large to be an eeveelution.

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Why? Absol is the final evolution of Eevee in my spectrum. All eeveelutions are primary evolutions bridging the petite Eevee and the previously lonesome Absol. Just works in my head. After choosing which elemental path you want to evolve your Normal-typed Eevee into, you ultimately evolve back to Normal, gaining whatever assets you chose.

Oshawott > Quilava? 2 legs > 4? It happens with Meowth but... still weird. Would sooner switch Persian and Meowth.

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Well, according to Bulbapedia's page on Quilava (which features artwork of it standing on its hind legs), it is based on animals of the Mustela genus (weasels), which is part of the Mustelidae family—which includes otters. So the families are related by real-world standards.

Kabutops when level up with bug bite? Makes more sense to switch Scyther and Heracross, then unlock Scyther/Kabutops if Sword Dance?

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Pinsir should evolve from Kakuna with Bug Bite, but goddamnit getting Heracross and Kabutops early on is awesome and requires leveling your Wurmple to Lv. 15 to learn the move. Without it, your Metapod/Kakuna will evolve into the less exciting Scyther and Pinsir. Just a rarity quirk on my part. Note: neither Wurmple, Metapod, or Kakuna can learn Sword Dance.

Aggron takes a Fire Stone? Why?

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Heat rocks until they're molten, form metals—**** like that.

Kadabra > Lucario is weird. Zoroark makes sense though.

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I'll admit, Lucario doesn't fit as well as Zoroark. However, he completes the Psychic/Fighting/Dark trio I wanted to portray somehow, and the Abra family was the perfect candidate. They're all canines anyway.

Farfetch'd > Swanna I can stomach... somewhat. Swanna > Cresselia is just wacko though. That would have to be an event or something, because disregarding all previous typing to go to LEGENDARY PSYCHIC is a bit weird.

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Yeah...

Steelix with Fire Stone is, once again, weird.

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See Aggron example above. The concept is that fire stones aren't just used to evolve fire-type pokemon.

Starmie > Jirachi is weird because Starmie has a double star. Staryu > Jirachi would be more logical.

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Jirachi is star-shaped. Imagine that it hatches from Starmie, which ultimately serves as a shell for the being developing inside (given your Staryu learned Cosmic Power at Lv. 55.

Togetic > Froslass is wack.

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Why? It looks just like that family! White with red and blue spots, generally same shape. I thought it was an offshoot design forcibly applied to the Snowrunt family instead of rightfully evolving from Togepi.

Gligar > Drapion is weird. Lose all typing AND wings?

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Well, Gligar does possess scorpion traits. When I first saw Drapion back when Gen 4 Pokemon were unveiled, I thought it was a Gligar evo. Same color scheme as well. I gave Gligar two flying evolutions and one grounded one.

Btw, I'd switch personalities between Gyara and Milo.

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Yeah, I'm going to do that.

I'm guessing this Personality stuff is the same as Wurmple in concept.

Which, by the way, is completely random.

Like, so many random evolutions doesn't seem like a very nice trait. 50/50 chance of getting the evolution you want, you can't even tell which evolution it is until you actually evolve. It was tolerable when you only had to grind to level 7, but like 60 and stuff... absurd.

Togetic > Froslass doesn't work so well because Froslass looks like a ghost. The Gastly-esque sphere that is sort of like the "core" of her head looks ghostly.

Also:

Eevee > Delcatty
Flareon > Entei
Vaporeon > Suicune
Jolteon > Raikou
Umbreon > Absol/Liepard
Espeon > Cresselia/Girafarig
Leafeon > Sawsbuck
Glaceon > Beartic/Mamoswine

or something like that.

UltiMario said:

I'm guessing this Personality stuff is the same as Wurmple in concept.

Which, by the way, is completely random.

Like, so many random evolutions doesn't seem like a very nice trait. 50/50 chance of getting the evolution you want, you can't even tell which evolution it is until you actually evolve. It was tolerable when you only had to grind to level 7, but like 60 and stuff... absurd.

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Absurd? Well that's the idea. There's a lot of absurdity in the world. We just have to cope with it. As I previously stated, you can't know who you're going to be in life. You can work to define your image, but your core—what you truly are—is up to fate to decide. That was the presiding concept for many families in this Pokédex. I had to compromise with the controlling aspect of Pokémon evolution. Just as we can brew new animals through selective breeding, so too can you choose further the evolution of some species. However, nature will always play its role in the random factor. This is why I set up equivocal counterparts based on personality (nature), like Snubbull to Clefairy, Moltres to Articuno, and Seel to Sealeo. Similarities and differences aside, they are more or less equivalents.

This is not a dex devised from a competitive spirit (you know I am not one), though I suppose anyone wanting to [hypothetically] make a playable game from it for competition's sake could do so and I would hope could enjoy it. I merely wanted to revise the evolutionary aspect of Pokémon for concept's sake.

Wave⁂ said:

Togetic > Froslass doesn't work so well because Froslass looks like a ghost. The Gastly-esque sphere that is sort of like the "core" of her head looks ghostly.

Also:

Eevee > Delcatty
Flareon > Entei
Vaporeon > Suicune
Jolteon > Raikou
Umbreon > Absol/Liepard
Espeon > Cresselia/Girafarig
Leafeon > Sawsbuck
Glaceon > Beartic/Mamoswine

or something like that.

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Froslass looks like a ghost, sure. Why then does it evolve from a Snorunt?


or



The colors and form of Togetic match Froslass more than Snorunt ever will. Snorunt shares in common the Ice trait and that is it. I retyped Froslass to be Normal/Ghost as it derives from the Togepi line now. Fits into the family as a Ghost alternative to the Normal/Flying Togekiss. Plus, the purple ghost-face within Froslass' white head could resemble an eggshell encasing as well, relating back to Togepi's physiology. Does that make sense?

The Eeveelutions are foxes (or fox-cats). You listed a swan/giraffe, a stag, and a bear/mammoth. Despite those following the typing, they are entirely different species. Real-world species relativity (when applicable) was a constant in my deciding. Thanks for the feedback. Your questions challenge my understanding of the concept and that is worthwhile.

Sol Diviner said:

I can't help but notice Mewtwo is the only Pokémon that doesn't evolve into anything, nor does it evolve from something.

Still, I thought this was rather creative, and I still swear Venonat should've evolved into Butterfree.

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Heh, I couldn't end the dex with Mew. I had to add Mewtwo. It's MEWTWO.

It's discrepancies like the Venonat-Butterfree [rightful] evolution that inspired a lot of what this project consists of, though I won't deny that I lifted some families from Aquaeus' hack.

Assuming this became a hack, even from a casual playthrough standpoint, if you're going for trying to get a certain Pokemon, 50% of the time you simply will miss it due to sheer luck, since you simply can't tell which evolution it's going to be. This could be after grinding them through the game for tons levels, not like 2-3 for the Wurple counterpart to this system.

Don't know who you're going to be in life my ***. People in a bad mood do not suddenly turn into dogs.

Even using the Hitmon evolution traits would be better than this.

People in a bad mood don't turn into dogs but their resulting actions might represent the ferocity of a dog versus the docility of a sheep.

I honestly forgot about the Hitmon evolution traits. As I mentioned in some posts before, I don't understand all of Pokémon evolution. I enjoy the creatures from a design standpoint and barely play the games. This was a conceptual project. I might work that in if/when I refine this.

Glad to see your animosity for me remains intact. Tally-ho!

Edit: For the record, a total of 30 out of the 273 Pokémon in my Pokédex are based on personality (random) driven evolution. 28 more than Silcoon/Cascoon, but not an overwhelming number. What an experience that'd be, arduously raising a Xatu to Lv. 60, not knowing whether it'll be a Ho-oh or Lugia. You'd plan accordingly. As a result, decide moves for the Xatu, not for Ho-oh or Lugia specifically (or gamble and do so). Whether it becomes Ho-oh or Lugia, that's up to chance to decide. I'm sorry you don't like the idea. I will take into account your Hitmon suggestion when revising the dex, but I find the random factor compelling.

Spire said:

You see the Unown relation though, right?

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Why yes I do. It's quite smart, actually.

I'd just like to see Sigilyph as an alternative forme for Xatu. That make sense?

Spire said:

Why? Absol is the final evolution of Eevee in my spectrum. All eeveelutions are primary evolutions bridging the petite Eevee and the previously lonesome Absol. Just works in my head. After choosing which elemental path you want to evolve your Normal-typed Eevee into, you ultimately evolve back to Normal, gaining whatever assets you chose.

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Ahh. That's interesting. Misread it, my bad!

Spire said:

Well, according to Bulbapedia's page on Quilava (which features artwork of it standing on its hind legs), it is based on animals of the Mustela genus (weasels), which is part of the Mustelidae family—which includes otters. So the families are related by real-world standards.

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Fair enough, haha.

Spire said:

Pinsir should evolve from Kakuna with Bug Bite, but goddamnit getting Heracross and Kabutops early on is awesome and requires leveling your Wurmple to Lv. 15 to learn the move. Without it, your Metapod/Kakuna will evolve into the less exciting Scyther and Pinsir. Just a rarity quirk on my part. Note: neither Wurmple, Metapod, or Kakuna can learn Sword Dance.

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Doesn't matter if they don't learn Sword Dance, it would be a good requirement to evolve into Scyther/Kabutops, don't you agree? I just don't see how Bug Bite makes it Kabutops when Kabutops obviously uses his blades. Pinsir would be more likely to bite because of his mouth.

Spire said:

I'll admit, Lucario doesn't fit as well as Zoroark. However, he completes the Psychic/Fighting/Dark trio I wanted to portray somehow, and the Abra family was the perfect candidate. They're all canines anyway.

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Then you're shaping the tools to your will. A better idea is to use the tools as they are, and shape the dex using what you have, instead of using what you want. That make sense? (language barrier )

Spire said:

Jirachi is star-shaped. Imagine that it hatches from Starmie, which ultimately serves as a shell for the being developing inside (given your Staryu learned Cosmic Power at Lv. 55.

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Ahh. Interesting, good idea!

Spire said:

Why? It looks just like that family! White with red and blue spots, generally same shape. I thought it was an offshoot design forcibly applied to the Snowrunt family instead of rightfully evolving from Togepi.

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True true. Very true.

Spire said:

Well, Gligar does possess scorpion traits. When I first saw Drapion back when Gen 4 Pokemon were unveiled, I thought it was a Gligar evo. Same color scheme as well. I gave Gligar two flying evolutions and one grounded one.

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Fair enough.

The issue here is that, if we really are rooting this in real world logic, evolution is slow. A poke doesn't just disregard all typing, it moves from a typing to a similar, or gains something likely.

i.e. dunsparce is likely to gain flying on evolution because wings
i.e. a water poke could change to ice, as that's likely

Some of these evols disregard the slow process and go too far too fast. That's just imo though.

Well, it's ultimately still Pokémon. I took into account a lot of real-world taxonomy (i.e. Oshawott/Quilava), but I had to break some bounds in order to group those who just... fit. I will ultimately reconcile with the Wurmple chain and change it so Kakuna evolves into Pinsir with Bug Bite. Seeing as how Bug Bite is the last move Wurmple learns (at Lv. 15), and because Metapod and Kakuna only learn Harden, it was the deciding factor in designating—oh wait! I can use Ultimario's Hitmon statistical suggestion. Sp.Def = Heracross/Kabutops, Sp.Atk = Scyther/Pinsir. Of course! Changing right now...

What about Attack = Scyther/Pin, Defense = Kabutops/Hera...

SpAtk doesn't really hint towards Scyther/Pinsir. Neither does SpDef hint toward Hera/Kabu.

Dragonair to Gyara if Atk >= Def, Dragonair to Milotic if Def > Atk?

Also, Drowsee > Heatmor? Tapirs look kind of like anteaters if you squint really hard.

Xonar said:

What about Attack = Scyther/Pin, Defense = Kabutops/Hera...

SpAtk doesn't really hint towards Scyther/Pinsir. Neither does SpDef hint toward Hera/Kabu.

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Metapod and Kakuna have much higher Defense than Attack, so I chose the Sp.Atk/Def options instead since they're balanced.

Wave⁂ said:

Dragonair to Gyara if Atk >= Def, Dragonair to Milotic if Def > Atk?

Also, Drowsee > Heatmor? Tapirs look kind of like anteaters if you squint really hard.

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Drowzee → Heatmor is an awesome idea and I'm going to work that in. Fire Stone, yeah?
...
Okay had to google it: http://www.tapirday.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49

4. What are tapirs closest relatives?
Despite what some may think, tapirs are not related to anteaters, pigs or hippopotamuses; their closest relatives are horses and rhinoceroses - the only remaining families of the Perissodactyla order.
Extinct species of tapir would have looked similar to the four extant species, although the proboscis (the tapir's snout) only evolved in the last few million years.

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Looks like I may have to exhume Grumpig from the line as well. This means the Drowzee family can only be related to the Rhydon, Rapidash, and probably Zebstrika families. This puts me in an odd position.