Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

Imma wait for leffen to come in here and tell u ****ing scrubs to master upb cancel oos with doc, it hits on like frame 2 or some **** iirc...

But no, smashers are so ****ing lazy, they don't understand anything about JOESHE, me and armada agree that hes 12th on the tier list, we talked about it at the same tourney i took a game off of him (which mango can't even do), but its not like im saying im better than mango just because i took several games against armada (which mango can't even do), but in no way am i saying that i am close to mango cuz its about consistency, not taking several games off armada (like i did at several tournies) along with winning teams vs him and aniolas (the best team in europe and undefeated for a long time)...

But i'm not saying im better than mango, its probably because in Europe we don't have a ****ing scrub mindset of 10 people at a tv and not playing teams like ****ing lazy americans, did you know that 62% of americans still believe that noah's ark ACTUALLY happened and 43% of them think that roy is better than JOESHE.... lol, so ****ing sad and pathetic like bones...

I cant imagine what its like to be bones and present a tier list and claim he is not a top player and that his tier list is based on him watching high level players. Do you know that he can't make it out of pools and only plays one person, a marth main (THIS IS VERY RELEVANT TO HIS OPINION). Then he ****ing explains his reasoning for his tier list with an open mind to try to have a educational debate with people and learn something about smash... LOL, he should just stop posting, he can't make it out of pools like me and armada...

So ****ing stupid, thats why we invented BONES logic which is RESULTS-BASED logic, even though bones specifically said his list was not based on results and it doesn't even follow since he has falcon above fox...

Because me and armada are so witty and have perfect reading comprehension unlike all those ****ing flopamericunts

Sveet said:

Umbreon are you saying that Doc has good match-ups with fox falco sheik or puff? I thought doc has bad match-ups with everyone above him, including falcon. Maybe Puff or Peach is slightly not bad for him, but I don't think he has any winning match-ups.

Click to expand...

doc doesn't have great matchups but that's ok since the're not that terrible either. having an odd parity with the best characters in the game is ok in my book. i'd rather have all even or slightly losing matches than go into a bracket where at least 60% of them are a notable disadvantage (CF)

Docs matchup with marth is far worse than falcons. Doc's sheik matchup is awful and is common enough to keep him below falcon, even if falcon v sheik is bad.

Despite leffen being a jerk online i think he has some very good points about yoshi. Also to people saying no one has shown what yoshi can do at a high level what about vman who made bracket at a big tourney and if what i hear is correct angel outplaces vman at tourneys also going yoshi.

We all know the next tier list will be around for at least 2 to 3 years so i feel writing off yoshi right now could look foolish and cause arguments. So i just think we should look carefully at this character before just throwing him into a very low spot on the next tier list

Grim Tuesday said:

You take the effort to say Shai drops, rather than just standard dropping through a platform or running off; gameplay wise there really isn't much difference (the extra speed isn't necessary).

I was confused because it seems like you were seeing something more in the technique that I don't see.

Click to expand...

Shai dropping/running sheild drop opens up a world of options that regular dropping and running off don't allow. Shai dropping is almost strictly better in every way. If you disagree, you should think about it more and/or watch more eggz/jeapie/tai vids.

Mahone said:

Imma wait for leffen to come in here and tell u ****ing scrubs to master upb cancel oos with doc, it hits on like frame 2 or some **** iirc...

But no, smashers are so ****ing lazy, they don't understand anything about JOESHE, me and armada agree that hes 12th on the tier list, we talked about it at the same tourney i took a game off of him (which mango can't even do), but its not like im saying im better than mango just because i took several games against armada (which mango can't even do), but in no way am i saying that i am close to mango cuz its about consistency, not taking several games off armada (like i did at several tournies) along with winning teams vs him and aniolas (the best team in europe and undefeated for a long time)...

But i'm not saying im better than mango, its probably because in Europe we don't have a ****ing scrub mindset of 10 people at a tv and not playing teams like ****ing lazy americans, did you know that 62% of americans still believe that noah's ark ACTUALLY happened and 43% of them think that roy is better than JOESHE.... lol, so ****ing sad and pathetic like bones...

I cant imagine what its like to be bones and present a tier list and claim he is not a top player and that his tier list is based on him watching high level players. Do you know that he can't make it out of pools and only plays one person, a marth main (THIS IS VERY RELEVANT TO HIS OPINION). Then he ****ing explains his reasoning for his tier list with an open mind to try to have a educational debate with people and learn something about smash... LOL, he should just stop posting, he can't make it out of pools like me and armada...

So ****ing stupid, thats why we invented BONES logic which is RESULTS-BASED logic, even though bones specifically said his list was not based on results and it doesn't even follow that it does since he has falcon above fox...

Because me and armada are so witty and have perfect reading comprehension unlike all those ****ing flopamericunts

Click to expand...

10/10

Doc has no "awful" matchups, and thats something no one outside the top 5, maybe top 4 can say.

Its tough to say where he belongs, but I wish we had a larger representation at tournaments so we could truly see.

Putting him above Falcon isn't out of the question, and at the very least he ought to be in the same tier.

Mahone said:

Imma wait for leffen to come in here and tell u ****ing scrubs to master upb cancel oos with doc, it hits on like frame 2 or some **** iirc...

But no, smashers are so ****ing lazy, they don't understand anything about JOESHE, me and armada agree that hes 12th on the tier list, we talked about it at the same tourney i took a game off of him (which mango can't even do), but its not like im saying im better than mango just because i took several games against armada (which mango can't even do), but in no way am i saying that i am close to mango cuz its about consistency, not taking several games off armada (like i did at several tournies) along with winning teams vs him and aniolas (the best team in europe and undefeated for a long time)...

But i'm not saying im better than mango, its probably because in Europe we don't have a ****ing scrub mindset of 10 people at a tv and not playing teams like ****ing lazy americans, did you know that 62% of americans still believe that noah's ark ACTUALLY happened and 43% of them think that roy is better than JOESHE.... lol, so ****ing sad and pathetic like bones...

I cant imagine what its like to be bones and present a tier list and claim he is not a top player and that his tier list is based on him watching high level players. Do you know that he can't make it out of pools and only plays one person, a marth main (THIS IS VERY RELEVANT TO HIS OPINION). Then he ****ing explains his reasoning for his tier list with an open mind to try to have a educational debate with people and learn something about smash... LOL, he should just stop posting, he can't make it out of pools like me and armada...

So ****ing stupid, thats why we invented BONES logic which is RESULTS-BASED logic, even though bones specifically said his list was not based on results and it doesn't even follow since he has falcon above fox...

Because me and armada are so witty and have perfect reading comprehension unlike all those ****ing flopamericunts

Click to expand...

Moral of the story: don't **** with MD/VA

We got killas in the real

Boat Mode said:

Docs matchup with marth is far worse than falcons. Doc's sheik matchup is awful and is common enough to keep him below falcon, even if falcon v sheik is bad.

Click to expand...

doc's match with him is worse than falcon's, but not much worse. shield abuse goes a long way in that match.

sheik vs doc is....debatable, and probably under-explored.

edit: bones should post more. his ideas are weird and make me think.

Mahone said:

So ****ing stupid, thats why we invented BONES logic which is RESULTS-BASED logic, even though bones specifically said his list was not based on results and it doesn't even follow since he has falcon above fox...

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Wait, THAT'S been what the joke is about? WTF... I've definitely made multiple posts trashing results-based lists due to the shallow player pool and EXTREME character population variation... :|

Umbreon said:

doc's match with him is worse than falcon's, but not much worse. shield abuse goes a long way in that match.

sheik vs doc is....debatable, and probably under-explored.

edit: bones should post more. his ideas are weird and make me think.

Click to expand...

Thanks... I guess? >_>

Give me something to think about, and then I will come up with weird ideas to make you think. As far as Doc vs. Sheik, Shroomed did pretty damn good vs. M2K at Genesis, but idk how experienced M2K is in the matchup. People seem to blow Sheik's matchups out of proportion in general. She used to destroy Marth and Falcon, but those seem to be commonly excepted as quite close to even nowadays. Her combos are lame, but everyone has a good number of autocombos these days, so being pwned by ftilt fair is no longer a valid justification for saying Sheik destroys someone.

Umbreon said:

doc doesn't have great matchups but that's ok since the're not that terrible either. having an odd parity with the best characters in the game is ok in my book. i'd rather have all even or slightly losing matches than go into a bracket where at least 60% of them are a notable disadvantage (CF)

Click to expand...

Doc has also worse matchup than any of the top tiers vs mid tier to low tier.

Divinokage said:

Doc has also worse matchup than any of the top tiers vs mid tier to low tier.

Click to expand...

no that's your character.

/pikachu

Bones0 said:

? >_>

Give me something to think about, and then I will come up with weird ideas to make you think. As far as Doc vs. Sheik, Shroomed did pretty damn good vs. M2K at Genesis, but idk how experienced M2K is in the matchup. People seem to blow Sheik's matchups out of proportion in general. She used to destroy Marth and Falcon, but those seem to be commonly excepted as quite close to even nowadays. Her combos are lame, but everyone has a good number of autocombos these days, so being pwned by ftilt fair is no longer a valid justification for saying Sheik destroys someone.

Click to expand...

Gonna have to disagree with you about Shiek. I don't think Marth vs Sheik has ever been accepted and close to even, and after watching M2k vs Hax at Zenith, I'm inclined to Sheik ***** Falcon again. And know I'm not just basing this off of hax getting outplayed, we've found that rolling the C-stick during your tech is no longer a way to escape Sheik's techchasing if she simply double jabs, and so once again Sheik can easily tech chase Falcon to death. I'm inclined to think that Sheik is 3rd best character in the game at this point.

Mahone said:

did you know that 62% of americans still believe that noah's ark ACTUALLY happened

Click to expand...

Wow, 38% of my country is really ****ing stupid.

Kal said:

Wow, 38% of my country is really ****ing stupid.

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It really doesn't sound anymore farfetch than a meteor hitting earth and wipping out all life.

Just the dinosaurs. We humans all survived.


Just super saiyan.

My tierlist as of right the **** now.

Top

Falco
Fox/Sheik/Peach/Puff

High

Marth
Falcon
IC's

High Mid
Doc
Samus
Ganon/Pika

Low Mid

Mario (No idea where to put him)
Luigi/DK
Yoshi/YL/Link

Bad

Zelda/Mewtwo
Roy

I don't care tiers

And because this is smashfrauds I don't have to give any justification

mahone lmao

I have said "me and armada" like 2 times, and both were related to the tier list which we discussed and used the exact same reasoning for (the posts were also posted in the MBR first, where Armada doesn't have access).

also you not realizing whats going on is HILARIOUS lol amirite beat/armada

Boat Mode said:

My tierlist as of right the **** now.

Top

Falco
Fox/Sheik/Peach/Puff

High

Marth
Falcon
IC's

High Mid
Doc
Samus
Ganon/Pika

Low Mid

Mario (No idea where to put him)
Luigi/DK
Yoshi/YL/Link

Bad

Zelda/Mewtwo
Roy

I don't care tiers

And because this is smashfrauds I don't have to give any justification

Click to expand...

I am going to make u care about g&w next time we play

Also i was going to respond to froggy but i could not tell if it was a joke and ether way this is not the place to point out how Noah's ark makes far less sense then a meteor wiping out some life on earth

Anyone agree with this:

Fox/Falco/Sheik
Marth/Puff/(Peach)
Falcon/(Peach)
IC
Doc/Samus/Ganon
w/e

Not sure about Peach. I feel like she should be tied with Falcon, but on the other hand her MUs are better
Sheik could also be below spacies but above Marth/Jigglypuff

Reasons:
Spacies too good with dem metal legs
Sheik has no flaws, bad MU or stages
Marth lacks killing options especially at higher % and also does bad against sheik and falcon + lowtiers can be annoying too
Puff has limited mobility. Bair is kinda overrated
Armada is too good
Everybody can Combo and Edgeguard Falcon and he has no shine

Dude G&W is the **** I just don't care about his placement on the list.

Kind of have no idea how to place puff b/c I think shes going down (unless people get cray w/ the planking) but I have no idea how much.

leffen said:

mahone lmao

I have said "me and armada" like 2 times, and both were related to the tier list which we discussed and used the exact same reasoning for (the posts were also posted in the MBR first, where Armada doesn't have access).

also you not realizing whats going on is HILARIOUS lol amirite beat/armada

Click to expand...

Word

I think I will give up when it comes to discuss this topic cause it feels like almost everyone is voteing/have opinions based on results. That way this is completly pointless to discuss cause results are nothing we can change and that means this topic is pointless until people actually start to use their brain.

Edit: If the results is what a tier list should show then I have no idea why we vote at all.

Armada, if you think what people are posting is wrong and too results-based, the first step is to post your own list and convince others of its merit.

I don't think you've done that though, so I'm not sure how you can expect others to have a similar opinion.

Armada I'd be really interested in your opinions on the list and how your work on peach has effected her placement.

EDIT:****ing ninja'd thanks bro

**** yoshi **** sweden

Boat Mode said:

My tierlist as of right the **** now.

Top

Falco
Fox/Sheik/Peach/Puff


Luigi/DK
Yoshi/YL/Link

Zelda/Mewtwo

Click to expand...

To many ties. If you don't have the COJONES to make the tough decisions, your not even real in the streets.

Armada said:

Word

I think I will give up when it comes to discuss this topic cause it feels like almost everyone is voteing/have opinions based on results. That way this is completly pointless to discuss cause results are nothing we can change and that means this topic is pointless until people actually start to use their brain.

Edit: If the results is what a tier list should show then I have no idea why we vote at all.

Click to expand...

Post a list then n***a

I agree with the fact that I haven't really tried my best to convince people BUT when people use those arguments over and over it starts getting really tired.

Even if Leffen act like a idiot many times () he know a lot about this game and he actually try to convince people many times (about Yoshi for example even if I think he goes to aggro) but it feels like people don't even care about reading casue "we haven't seen it happen" and "results" is normally where the discussion ends.

I will try to make a super serious post about why I think Y char is better then X (make some examples)

Edit:

Fox
Puff
Falco

Marth
Sheik
Peach
IC
Falcon

Doc
Pikachu
Luigi
Yoshi
Samus
Ganon

Mario
DK
Y. Link
Link

Mewtwo
Zelda
G&W
Ness

Kirby
Roy
Pichu
Bowser

Im not saying my list is perfect and I guess Puffs place will be discussed. Maybe Im biased (about Puff)I have been hateing on that char since my first tournament so that char is tbh the hardest one for me to be sure were to put.

I will try to have time to explain everything in a soon future (some smash tomorrow with friends and the final och the European cup in fotball on sunday )

Dude no one responds to Leffen because its ****ing Leffen, not because of results or whatever

And I don't mean that as an insult to Leffen, its just people don't want to have a back-and-forth with a guy who posts like that.

Post something constructive and we'll discuss it Armada. But right now all you're doing is telling us our lists are **** (which is probably true! The **** do I know about Yoshi lol) without telling us why

edit: he edited his list in after I made this post lol

Mahone said:

Imma wait for leffen to come in here and tell u ****ing scrubs to master upb cancel oos with doc, it hits on like frame 2 or some **** iirc...

But no, smashers are so ****ing lazy, they don't understand anything about JOESHE, me and armada agree that hes 12th on the tier list, we talked about it at the same tourney i took a game off of him (which mango can't even do), but its not like im saying im better than mango just because i took several games against armada (which mango can't even do), but in no way am i saying that i am close to mango cuz its about consistency, not taking several games off armada (like i did at several tournies) along with winning teams vs him and aniolas (the best team in europe and undefeated for a long time)...

But i'm not saying im better than mango, its probably because in Europe we don't have a ****ing scrub mindset of 10 people at a tv and not playing teams like ****ing lazy americans, did you know that 62% of americans still believe that noah's ark ACTUALLY happened and 43% of them think that roy is better than JOESHE.... lol, so ****ing sad and pathetic like bones...

I cant imagine what its like to be bones and present a tier list and claim he is not a top player and that his tier list is based on him watching high level players. Do you know that he can't make it out of pools and only plays one person, a marth main (THIS IS VERY RELEVANT TO HIS OPINION). Then he ****ing explains his reasoning for his tier list with an open mind to try to have a educational debate with people and learn something about smash... LOL, he should just stop posting, he can't make it out of pools like me and armada...

So ****ing stupid, thats why we invented BONES logic which is RESULTS-BASED logic, even though bones specifically said his list was not based on results and it doesn't even follow since he has falcon above fox...

Because me and armada are so witty and have perfect reading comprehension unlike all those ****ing flopamericunts

Click to expand...

Wonderful pastiche. Unusual cleverness levels for a flopmerican.

JPOBS said:

To many ties. If you don't have the COJONES to make the tough decisions, your not even real in the streets.

Click to expand...

n***a

Falco
Fox
Sheik
Peach
Puff

Marth
Falcon
ICs

Doc
Samus
Ganon
Pika

Mario
Luigi
DK

Link
Yoshi
YL

Zelda
Mewtwo
Roy
G&W

What.

Dude that's like, pretty much my exact list. I think luigi > mario and gnw > mewtwo/roy but who really knows about those chars.

Stating why your tier lists are wrong when you either give zero reasoning, or just throw out empty words like:

"Puffs bair has incredible priority"
"Marth is weak once you get inside his range"
"Peach has good combos and good priority".

These types of statements are USELESS unless the reader knows that they come from a well thought out, smart source aka being a respected top player

If you are a low level player, then please realize this. I'm not saying don't make a tier list, but don't make one and just use the exact same reasoning you saw a better player use without actually understanding it. For some reason, people like to think that they have this huge weight to the community even though they should know better.

Look at Boat modes list. He changed his entire list (ordering ties) in a couple of minutes, and left no reasoning. Who the **** cares about what Boat mode thinks. Boat Mode, what a silly name, btw.

If Boat Mode would instead say, hey guys, I'm a marth main and I think his matchups against the top tiers are this this this, and I think he pairs up to this character because this characters matchups are like this this this. This makes for a constructive, and active debate.

People don't realize either, how much a single matchup changes everything.
IC's loses badly to Peach. Because of ICs overall good matchups, this makes Peach higher. ICs also beats Sheik and Jigglypuff, but since Peach is making the IC matchup less relevant it increases Sheiks and Puffs spot. But now, since Sheik is higher, and she still loses to Puff, Puff should go even higher (since the Sheik matchup being in her favor is now higher valued).

Since Spacies **** puff (imo), Puff being high raises their spots, and this also makes Marth higher since he beats the spacies, which increases Sheiks placement (since he ***** marth) and so on.

By showing what matchups you think a certain character wins, you are allowing way more constructive debate to happen and to more directly change your list. No one is ever gonna change Armada's mind about how good Jigglypuff is because "I think she dies early and her bair is overrated"

However, you do have a shot at changing his mind if you can just convince him that one of the matchups that he doesn't know, say CF vs Puff, is in CF favor/even since "well he kills her at 40% from any hit ->knee and her bair doesn't outrange his attacks, and his attacks cover way more angles then her linear back air".

But no. Mr Boat Mode doesn't like any of that. Mr Boat Mode likes to put up empty tier lists, who have hidden reasoning and have no one in the ****ing world care.

And no, boat mode isn't the only dumb noob in here. Tero, Jpobs, (almost) everyone, you all give ****ty freakin explanations and the one thing you care about is having your list validated by some other (good) player instead of actually going outside of the box and thinking for yourself.


Also, Armada. For the heck of it, please list what you feel Puffs matchups are in the ~top 15. I want you to actually show me them, and then compare them with Sheiks/Marths/Falcos and tell me that Puff is #2.
I honestly think that both you and I know that, somewhere, you know that you have been overrating Puff all this time but your hesitating to (really) change her placing simply because "I couldn't have been that wrong for so long"

Hey. Hey. My names not silly. And I did say this is smashfruads and already made fun of myself for giving no reasoning.

I didn't feel like posting a long explanation mostly b/ I don't have the time. I just how this discussion gets me thinking.

Ill admit I can't give solid reasoning for the chars outside the top 7 and ganon/samus. But I'm not looking to push weight or get approval.

I don't mind that you used me as an example. I agree w/ most of what you said.

BUT GET THE **** OFF MY USERNAME I WILL **** YOUR FACE.

good work mahone. I laughed.

**** yoshi

But I'm not looking to push weight or get approval.

Click to expand...

I'd use the word "validation", not "get approval". But more importantly, what you wrote is simply not true.

I just how this discussion gets me thinking.

Click to expand...

What discussion? How does you _posting_ a blank tier list with no reasoning get you thinking?
Again, I'd refer to what I said above^

leffen said:

If Boat Mode would instead say, hey guys, I'm a marth main and I think his matchups against the top tiers are this this this, and I think he pairs up to this character because this characters matchups are like this this this. This makes for a constructive, and active debate.

Click to expand...

Yeahhh I did exactly that like ten pages ago and got exactly one response

Construct said:

Seriously. Isn't it fairly widely accepted that she has even to losing MUs against Fox Puff Marth and Falcon? That doesn't scream S tier to me.


My n00b tierlist

S
Falco- Ridiculous combos and pressure, strong neutral game and stage control. Yeah he dies early and is susceptible to combos, but so what? Long recoveries aren't what they used to be because of how good everyone is at edgeguarding nowadays.

Fox- Still number one in teams imo, but doesn't have the same control and damage output that falco does in singles.

Puff- Puff is still ****. I could see puff dropping in the future as people learned to space around her better or combo her better (Leffen knows some scary stuff), but not yet.

Marth- Ridiculous grab game, ridiculous range, fairly ridiculous combos on basically everybody, top notch edgeguarding and gimping game, and very good aerial play. Loses to sheik and is pretty easy to combo, but deathgrabs on spacies, outranging puff, and the fraudulent things he can do to Peach more than makes up for that in my eyes.


A
Sheik- Yes Sheik beats Marth, but she has a much harder time against Fox Falco and Puff, hence why I placed her lower. Sure she has free MUs against the bottom tiers, but not all MUs carry the same weight.

Peach- She has a lot going for her, she really does, but that doesn't mean she's suddenly S tier. She still has loads more losing MUs than the other top tiers. Good stuff Peach mains for being so successful.

B
Falcon- Falcon has some awesome combos, but his lack of a proper approach really hinders him in my eyes. His recovery is pretty awful too.

Climbers- I don't have very much firsthand experience with them. Sorry! Potentially switch with Falcon. They have awesome damage output and grabgame, but they really seem to crumble against serious offensive pressure.


my two cents

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Wow you have got to be kidding me construct. There's no way you are actually that ignorant+stupid.


This was the first part of my post

"Puffs bair has incredible priority"
"Marth is weak once you get inside his range"
"Peach has good combos and good priority".

These types of statements are USELESS unless the reader knows that they come from a well thought out, smart source aka being a respected top player

If you are a low level player, then please realize this. I'm not saying don't make a tier list, but don't make one and just use the exact same reasoning you saw a better player use without actually understanding it. For some reason, people like to think that they have this huge weight to the community even though they should know better.

Click to expand...

You even said "my n00b tierlist".

Why the hell do you think that you deserve any ****ing responses? The fact that you got one is extraordinary.
A no name player who states nothing new and writes like he deserves respect for simply doing copy pasta of random posts in this thread

What I said was LIST HIS MATCHUPS, the things we can actually trust that you know.
You did the exact opposite of what should be done.
you ****ing flopmerican ******** carpenter

ya dude u set that 2012 join date straight

stay ruthless brother

Leffen I'm not defending my list. Lists w/o justification aren't quality posts. I wont call them bad b/c I see nothing wrong with them. Expecting to be held in high regard for posting a "good" list w/o reason is stupid.

Validation? I guess? I don't need anyone else to validate my ideas. I guess I'm interested in what other people think of the ordering. The second half of that list is admittedly not founded in solid reason. I only untied them b/c jpobs called me out on something mostly in jest. I do believe that puff/peach are tied and so are ganon/pika and mario/luigi.

Like Leffen, I agree with you. That post was fraudulent, but I'm ok with that. I don't expeect anyone to glean anything from list of chars besides some Marth bias.

i think thats the first time ive ever seen somone insult somone by calling them a carpenter.

Leffen your insults are mad creative, ill give you props for that

leffen said:

Wow you have got to be kidding me construct. There's no way you are actually that ignorant+stupid.


This was the first part of my post


You even said "my n00b tierlist".

Why the hell do you think that you deserve any ****ing responses? The fact that you got one is extraordinary.
A no name player who states nothing new and writes like he deserves respect for simply doing copy pasta of random posts in this thread

What I said was LIST HIS MATCHUPS, the things we can actually trust that you know.
You did the exact opposite of what should be done.
you ****ing flopmerican ******** carpenter

Click to expand...

Leffen, did you even read the list I gave? The only people that were notably shifted around had their MUs listed.

I pointed out that Peach's MUs were not worthy of this really high places everyone gives her. I pointed out that Marth's MUs are better than those of Sheik's, even though Sheik beats him in the MU.

Fox and Falco have even/winning MUs against everybody which is common knowledge, so do I really need to spell that out for you? Instead I gave my explanation for why I believed Falco should be placed higher than Fox (the short version of it).

Nobody else has ever posted that list so instead of just yelling random epithets why don't you ****ing refute a point and start an intelligent discussion like you keep whining about not getting?


If you would like me to list MUs in greater detail: [COLLAPSE="MUs"]

Falco/Fox: Beat go even with everybody.

Puff: Theoretically loses to Fox, but the way the metagame is today it's looking more even than ever. Goes even/beats everyone else.

Marth: Goes even with/beats everyone but Sheik.

Sheik: Goes even/beats everyone, but not as strongly as Marth does. Sheik has a lot more trouble with Fox/Falco/Puff than Marth does, which counts for a whole lot more than her free MUs against lower parts of the tierlist.

Peach: Loses to Fox Puff Marth Sheik Falcon or something like that. Either way she has way more losing MUs than anyone above her if all you're considering are MUs.

Falcon: Loses to Sheik and Spacies. Yeah, that gives him less losing MUs than Peach, but her "losing" MUs are looking much more winnable all the time.

ICs: Lose to peach, spacies, falcon. Even with Marth. Beats Sheik. No clue on the Puff MU.[/COLLAPSE]



tl;dr critique the list then ******, I know it's not perfect and I'd genuinely like to hear your thoughts

edit: I read your list and reasoning, and mine's different for a few reasons which i'm happy to outline here:

You undervalue how much the losing sheik MU hinders Marth and you overvalue how much the Peach MU affects Falco. There are way more Sheik players than there are Peach players, and as such, that makes the sheik-marth MU more important than the Falco-Peach MU.

You put Puff lower than I did, but if you actually read the ****ing thing you'd know that I expect her to fall once people implement better anti-puff stuff (I even ****ing credited you for a bunch of this), but people aren't at that level yet so Puff is still higher. Very few people think that Falco/Puff and Marth puff are falco/marth favor, they consider them even or losing.

I said I didn't know much about ICs, so my placement of them was admittedly arbitrary.

You give no justification for why Fox>Falco.


edit @ person above: Only a weakling ****** like leffen would view knowing how to work with your hands as a bad thing. Carpenter comes about as close to being insulting as flopmerican.

leffen said:

Stating why your tier lists are wrong when you either give zero reasoning, or just throw out empty words like:

"Puffs bair has incredible priority"
"Marth is weak once you get inside his range"
"Peach has good combos and good priority".

These types of statements are USELESS unless the reader knows that they come from a well thought out, smart source aka being a respected top player

If you are a low level player, then please realize this. I'm not saying don't make a tier list, but don't make one and just use the exact same reasoning you saw a better player use without actually understanding it. For some reason, people like to think that they have this huge weight to the community even though they should know better.

Click to expand...

Puff's bair has incredible priority.