The Last Time I Will Do This

ZTD | TECHnology · Jul 3, 2012

Midwest Brawl: We need to talk.

And no this is not a "I want to get better!!" post. At least from a personal view. I'm already doing that.

This about something bigger. It's time for Midwest Brawl to stop being *****es and start taking responsibility for its actions as a community. We dug our own graves here as the worst region in the United States. It's time to change that.

DISCLAIMER: I'm pretty plastered right now but that's not going to compromise the integrity of my post. Also, if I sound like I'm being rude, I apologize but rolling over and being babies isn't going to solve any of the issues plaguing our region.

Now for starters let me emphasis this first point:

METAKNIGHT IS NOT THE ISSUE AND NEVER WAS. IT'S OUR OWN MINDSETS AND OUR OWN DOING. STOP BEING BAD AND BLAMING ONE CHARACTER FOR YOUR OWN LACK OF PREPARATION.

Judge. Affinity. Domo. Kel. Overswarm.

These are just a few of the the MK mains who were considered threats back when Midwest was something to fear. And you know something else? There were other characters too! Lain, Anther, MJG, Infern Angelis, Kain, Arty, Shugo and more! None of them MK mains. Even in that time, with these powerhouse names, Midwest was one the few regions complimented for its character diversity. And let's look at something else. If you had to mark a Top 5 as far as our best players in the Midwest TODAY I would say its:

Shugo

/

Kain

Judo

MJG

/

Krystedez

/

(in no set order btw)

Either way, these players have certainly proved to be in an elite group who can actually do some damage to other regions outside the Midwest. And look! None of them main

.

I realize these are isolated examples but I believe there is some validity to them. I truly feel like we are hindering ourselves with these widespread MK ban events. Just because parts of Texas and Florida are pro ban doesn't mean we have to hop on the bandwagon. There are plenty of other regions in the country who do not share the same ideology. And as long as there is this divide, we are hindering ourselves. If this country were 95% Pro Ban, I wouldn't argue this. But it's split and I feel like its extremely detrimental in the long run. The other continents don't even agree with the ban. I suppose it just boils down to what your goal is in the long run and how much you care. I can only truly speak for myself here but I plan on becoming the best player I can be; with or without Metaknight. MK has not proved to be an issue yet in my eyes.

And what's funny is that a few top level players told me that mostly bad players want MK banned. Or people who just can't deal with him. And from personal experience, I can say its true. I remember the days, I was pro ban. I was never thinking about it consciously, but I wanted him banned because I was bad vs him. In 2009, 2010 and 2011, I spent a lot of time losing bracket sets to that character. And it got to me. But after Apex, I had to sit down and ask myself why are all of these people from across the world so much better than I am? It's because they put in the ****ing work. Truth is, a large part of you people who are complaining about MK , have not put in the work to understand the character, the mechanics of the game and your own faults as a player. This was true of myself, other MI players and other players in general. MK is ****ing good. But he's not Jesus like some of us make it out to be. Until, I am proven otherwise, I could never agree to the ban. Phil and Chi, I'm looking at you guys.

It's time we start actually putting in the work to getting better. It's time we start asking questions more and looking at matches closely. It's time we start telling each other what we did right and wrong after a hype set. Its time we nurture our new players. It's time we start hitting the ****ing pavement and going from businesses and campuses advertising for our scene. It's time we start taking the "Ralph Cecil" or the "Zinoto" approach to the game. Because in the long run, I believe the only people we can blame for our losses is ourselves. This game does not care whether you work and go to school full time. This game does not give a **** whether you are a prodigy or whether you have to work to become a high level player.

There are only two types of people.

Those who do. And those who don't.

Which are you?

Ori_bro · Jul 3, 2012

so yes, I'm ready to DO something.

But seriously, its about time the Midwest starts to get their **** together. We have great players who can get to that higher level. We need to cultivate them to make them the best they can be. It takes one step in the right direction to begin this progress of improvement.

Hot_ArmS · Jul 3, 2012

i stopped reading when you said infern was a powerhouse

jk, read the whole thing, cosigned

Prince_Abu · Jul 3, 2012

hahahaha brawl is suc ha joke

MegaRobMan · Jul 3, 2012

inb4lux.

But I would like to say that in his defense his reasoning for banning MK is due to his desire to grow a local scene that hates MK.

I don't care, banning MK is cool because I don't have to worry about the best character in the game, and if I do that Kansas will come and travel to my tournaments.

Not banning MK is also cool because being a coward is something I look down upon.

Pimp Daddy Supreme · Jul 3, 2012

ZTD | TECHnology · Jul 3, 2012

I don't know a great deal about KS's scene but I can respect that reason. Although I still believe you can work on a scene without having to think about MK.

For example, the Western part of my state has been making some big strides in improving and fostering a scene and none of them really care about MK. They just wanna get better. I don't ever hear them complain about MK. And same for our new players in general in the more populated areas. None of them even care about MK. They simply wanna get better.

Judo777 · Jul 3, 2012

You know what alot of those players have in common? We are God-like at the MK MU. Much more so than any other player in the region (for our specific character MU). That said we still lose to MK players (from time to time) despite us being much better than them at the MU (just saying no one in the Midwest knows the Sheik MK MU a fraction as well as I do).

Bonds · Jul 3, 2012

You might think that we'd be able to build a scene without thinking about MK tech, and on a small scale you would be right. However, when it comes to going out of state, we would alienate the people in our scene who hate mk by attending tournaments that have him legal. These people do not want to travel 8+ hours for good competition only to lose to meta knight in pools/bracket when they believe he should be banned in the first place.

I realize this falls into the mindset part of the OP, but out in Kansas there are no large tournaments or powerhouse states for 7+ hours in any given direction. If we went about alienating such a substantial part of our already small community to attend mk legal tournaments, our local scene could start to fall apart, which would set us back months of effort and reduce our scene to just a few good players. This is the primary reason why I pushed for KS to carpool to Z3 in Colorado in July instead of Rage. For comparison, we have more than 3 cars worth of people interested in Z3, however as far as I know it would only be MJG, Bpow, Delux, and myself if we were going to Rage.

That said, I honestly do not believe MK is the issue. As mentioned, most other regions and even some states in the midwest do not ban him. I believe people are just as capable of going out of state to learn the meta knight matchup as they are any other matchup, if not more so because main/pocket knights are so highly concentrated in areas where he is legal.

I agree with everything about the mindset. Every single large leap in skill I have gone through since I started in January has come right after something inspirational in my career. (Vinnie visiting kc in march, my first regional in april, Ally staying in kc during may, etc.) I believe I will be one of the best before too long, and I want to drag KS back up with me where it belongs.

DtJ XeroXen · Jul 3, 2012

Ba n

Eddie G · Jul 3, 2012

Right on, Tech.

Right on.

Rabbi Nevins · Jul 3, 2012

ban

sounds like someone needs a mid level mk spanking to remind them whos boss

:kobe:

Apasher · Jul 3, 2012

Good post, Tech.

Sarix · Jul 3, 2012

I very much agree with this post Tech. I actually was a little sad at the two tournies I was at that I didn't get to face an MK, I actually think it's a fun MU even for Samus personally. And I am totally aware of how ironic that last sentence is considering who I main.

clowsui · Jul 3, 2012

You know that I don't really care about the ban with regards to the character. I am an originalist when it comes to stage lists but I recognize that that's not politically viable so in that respect, MK isn't broken when we're allowed to change rules for relatively arbitrary causes. Furthermore I actually practice a lot against MK anyways. Your accusations don't apply to me, and you know this, but I'd like to clarify for anybody who wants to put me in the scrub group. My placements suck, but at least I have no delusions about improvement.

I'm motivated moreso by politics then anything else. The ENTIRE STATE OF TX (at least, that's what Illmatic is making it seem like on Delux's Smashboards wall) is moving to host mostly MK banned tournaments. Florida hosts a lot of MK ban tournaments too. The growing scene in KS doesn't want MK. Other MWW states are fine with either (IL included), which leads Delux and I to think that given a majority they would switch. Though, as a side note, it seems like all IL tournaments are meant to do are to keep Kain warmed up, so they go by what he wants :denzel:

. IN is fine with either though last time I checked they prefer MK banned. OH doesn't mind and could go either way. KY could go either way. This is pretty much the ENTIRE MIDDLE of the US. Oh, GA/AL also wouldn't mind banning MK also.

Phil and I aren't asking anyone to move to a total ban. But what we want is to put MK banned in the mix. None of the EC tournaments are banning MK at all (at least none of the series). None of the WC tournaments are banning MK at all. That's fine - we only go there once in a while anyways, and we end up doing bad not because of MK like you said but because we don't put in the work. If you're talking about not banning in order to attract out of region talent MKs, in the past year the only OOR that have made a dent in MW tournies are mostly non-MK players (barring LORD Joe). TOs can use their own ****ing discretion when it comes to preparing their players (i.e. IF YOU'RE NOT AN IDIOT, HOST MK LEGAL EVENTS THE 1-2 MONTHS LEADING TO A LARGE EVENT). There is the opportunity to create a huge political force here. And yeah, I recognize that you said the divide is detrimental...it's only detrimental because there's no one who's willing to give a direction to MK ban.

Let's see how WHOBO4 goes. Once that blows over I will make a decision about RETRIBUTION being banned or unbanned.

Arty · Jul 3, 2012

Lol Tech quit lying, no one can make a post like that while drunk!

I do agree with you though. I was never pro-ban. Limiting him in doubles I would be fine with though. He is so far and away the best character in doubles it's not even close.

Roller · Jul 3, 2012

This is all codswallop.

is clearly the issue here.

ZTD | TECHnology · Jul 3, 2012

Chi, that sounds like a good idea. And yeah you know I'm not putting you in that category personally. I just addressed you and Phil since we were talking about the ban earlier.

And Arty, I swear to God, I am THAT good at drunk posting lmao. Ask MI.

:denzel:

Also double MK ban is like the standard now anyway.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Jul 3, 2012

I'm never gonna understand why people think banning MK is why people do worse.

APEX is the only reason things like this pop up.

Eddie G · Jul 3, 2012

Um...I've seen the way some MW players try to fight

. It's a sad, sad sight...lol. There is work to be done in that regard, believe me.

clowsui · Jul 3, 2012

Tako will eventually bring up this point, so I'd like to say it now:

I can almost GUARANTEE that if M2K vs Brood g5 apex 2k10 had gone a different way the MK ban wouldn't have even been a question. Some of you need to start looking past your bias

sneakytako · Jul 3, 2012

Ermahgerd.

Ermmm Kay, hes berken.

clowsui · Jul 3, 2012

Tako...

YOU KNOW WHO ELSE IS BROKEN?

MY MOOOOOOOOM

Eddie G · Jul 3, 2012

clowsui said:
Tako will eventually bring up this point, so I'd like to say it now:

I can almost GUARANTEE that if M2K vs Brood g5 apex 2k10 had gone a different way the MK ban wouldn't have even been a question. Some of you need to start looking past your bias

It went down to the very last hit of the very last match. If ANY long-term decision were made based on that set - I wouldn't have taken it seriously at all, despite being pro-ban at the time.

And honestly I don't think the ban would have been universal anyway. It would have been a similar situation to what we have now, only two years sooner.

Rabbi Nevins · Jul 3, 2012

too much estrogen in the brawl community, the ban is inevitable.

quad mk=pinnacle of fun in brawl.

links24 · Jul 3, 2012

TL is bad can only timeout

sneakytako · Jul 3, 2012

Eddie G said:
It went down to the very last hit of the very last match. If ANY long-term decision were made based on that set - I wouldn't have taken it seriously at all, despite being pro-ban at the time.

And honestly I don't think the ban would have been universal anyway. It would have been a similar situation to what we have now, only two years sooner.

Sigh.

Black =/= Not white.

I'm not saying that if M2K won, 'ermahgerd M2K played so gay and there was no way for brood to win' is a good arguement.

I'm saying that just because M2K lost, 'ermahgerd M2K played so gay and brood still won' doesn't prove that MK isn't lame. And you know many people used this to sway their decision on MK ban.

This thread is silly anyway. It's just like Red Ryu said: MK ban isn't keeping MW bad. When MW becomes the best MK ban region we can complain that MK ban is holding us back. Texas will still be Texas, MW will still be MW regardless of MK ban.

Zinoto · Jul 3, 2012

I personally think that both MK banned and legal tourneys are key to vast improvement.

makes you play precise and with few mistakes, while having him banned gives rise to other characters and makes you aware of the creative options that your opponent has available. For example, playing Mr. R showed me that if I'm not constantly on my toes, he was gonna wreck me (like MK). While playing Firefly and v115 showed me the creative options a player can come up with (regardless of character). Canada had

,

,

, and like all the low tiers, but also had a good number of metaknights as well. Players should definitely attend both type of tournaments for optimal improvement.

Pimp Daddy Supreme · Jul 3, 2012

yeah having both types of tournaments is especially great when you main

Ralph Cecil · Jul 3, 2012

I've pretty much been thinking what Zinoto said. =D I feel a mix between MK banned and Legal tournaments is healthy. ^_^

Also "Ralph Cecil" or the "Zinoto" approach to the game."

Roller · Jul 3, 2012

I'll mm anybody in the Midwest's mk that isn't WTP.. Or Shugo.

Rabbi Nevins · Jul 3, 2012

Pimp Daddy Supreme said:
yeah having both types of tournaments is especially great when you main

the best. They dont matter really though, second class citizens right there.

Roller said:
I'll mm anybody in the Midwest's mk that isn't WTP.. Or Shugo.

i hope this is trolling

Eddie G · Jul 3, 2012

sneakytako said:
Sigh.

Black =/= Not white.

I'm not saying that if M2K won, 'ermahgerd M2K played so gay and there was no way for brood to win' is a good arguement.

I'm saying that just because M2K lost, 'ermahgerd M2K played so gay and brood still won' doesn't prove that MK isn't lame. And you know many people used this to sway their decision on MK ban.

This thread is silly anyway. It's just like Red Ryu said: MK ban isn't keeping MW bad. When MW becomes the best MK ban region we can complain that MK ban is holding us back. Texas will still be Texas, MW will still be MW regardless of MK ban.

The best MK ban region? We, along with Texas (which has consisted of top mains for many characters over the years except MK - barring Dojo) and Florida, are the main regions that are even still going through with this ban stuff. Who exactly is there to compete with for that? Texas is clearly on another level with their average player skill, I've experienced it myself. We aren't competing with them any time soon, and I don't believe a ban movement would propel us any closer toward that either. Florida? Who cares, they haven't really been on the national map for lord knows how long, minus the Pika-god and an uprising beast Ike main. Anyway, my point is...who really cares about who is good in a MK banned environment? Please, enlighten me on that bro. Wins feel hollow, especially against MK mains who are forced onto another character. I was against this very stance during my pro-ban tenure, but circumstances and first-hand experience against said players has changed my view on it.

MK ban isn't keeping MW bad? No, not single-handedly. But have you seen the way some of these players approach the MK matchup? They're throwing out moves and repeating habits as if they were playing against a low-mid level Jigglypuff or Mario main. Of course you aren't going to get away with playing like that against the best character in the game. They deserve to lose. It takes some "oomph" to have a legitimate shot. Hmm...play ROB? Throw gyro then immediately shoot laser (almost robotically)? Well sure, you might be able to get away with doing that against, say, a Diddy Kong because of his "meh" landing/recovery capabilities; but of course you aren't going to get away with doing that against a character that pushes yours to its limit. There's a reason Ocean was able to pull out a win against M2K (aside from M2K's inexperience which, frankly, shouldn't even be an excuse in that matchup)...he was innovative, his lasers/gyro game wasn't predictable, he has great reaction time/decision making skills, all things that add up to form a fantastic player. It takes a fantastic player to beat a good MK, and that's the way it should be.

The problem isn't strictly about MK/non-MK for the most part, it's that the Midwest (specifically MW:E, more specifically Ohio/Kentucky/Indiana) has grown SOFT and wants an easy way out, or an easier route to a better individual performance in tournament under the guise of "having more fun". Fun is subjective. Anyway I'm done rambling for now, lol. I'll still attend almost anything anyway because I love to compete, and I have experience against the majority of the cast from wifi so I'm not worried about it.

DeLux · Jul 3, 2012

So there's a lot of stuff to read

I'm going to make a lot of call outs in a bit because this thread is really a lot of smokes and mirrors.

I suspect most of you won't like what I'm going to write lol

Ori_bro · Jul 3, 2012

DeLux said:
So there's a lot of stuff to read

I'm going to make a lot of call outs in a bit because this thread is really a lot of smokes and mirrors.

I suspect most of you won't like what I'm going to write lol

I'm ready to see this.

Eddie G · Jul 3, 2012

Meh, it's Smashboards. We'll live. xD

Roller · Jul 3, 2012

Phil, if you make me cry I will never forgive you.

sneakytako · Jul 3, 2012

Eddie G said:
The best MK ban region? We, along with Texas (which has consisted of top mains for many characters over the years except MK - barring Dojo) and Florida, are the main regions that are even still going through with this ban stuff. Who exactly is there to compete with for that? Texas is clearly on another level with their average player skill, I've experienced it myself. We aren't competing with them any time soon, and I don't believe a ban movement would propel us any closer toward that either. Florida? Who cares, they haven't really been on the national map for lord knows how long, minus the Pika-god and an uprising beast Ike main. Anyway, my point is...who really cares about who is good in a MK banned environment? Please, enlighten me on that bro. Wins feel hollow, especially against MK mains who are forced onto another character. I was against this very stance during my pro-ban tenure, but circumstances and first-hand experience against said players has changed my view on it.

Dude you know exactly what I'm talking about. We can't compare ourselves to Texas and Florida, it's not like we catch up by unbanning MK. The point is MK ban isn't holding us back like TC is saying in the OP. Although your point about beating MK mains in MK ban tournament is legit, it's not like that is the thing that makes MW bad.

Eddie G said:
MK ban isn't keeping MW bad? No, not single-handedly. But have you seen the way some of these players approach the MK matchup? They're throwing out moves and repeating habits as if they were playing against a low-mid level Jigglypuff or Mario main. Of course you aren't going to get away with playing like that against the best character in the game. They deserve to lose. It takes some "oomph" to have a legitimate shot. Hmm...play ROB? Throw gyro then immediately shoot laser (almost robotically)? Well sure, you might be able to get away with doing that against, say, a Diddy Kong because of his "meh" landing/recovery capabilities; but of course you aren't going to get away with doing that against a character that pushes yours to its limit. There's a reason Ocean was able to pull out a win against M2K (aside from M2K's inexperience which, frankly, shouldn't even be an excuse in that matchup)...he was innovative, his lasers/gyro game wasn't predictable, he has great reaction time/decision making skills, all things that add up to form a fantastic player. It takes a fantastic player to beat a good MK, and that's the way it should be.

Dude, you gotta trust me on this one and believe me when I say you have no idea what your talking about. Ok, I have one of the worst tech skill in the entire brawl community, seriously I can't even platform cancel. Yet I can still compete because I outwit other players, not because laser gyro is auto approach stopper. In fact even though I'm more of a mental ROB, I have more trouble with MK than any other character. Why? Because you need to be more technically profecient than your opponent to have a chance in this bad MU. Any good MK can react to any of my mixups because that's what MK does. Ocean isn't impressive because he's smart. Ocean is amazing because he's super technical, in the most subtle places. You gotta trust me on this one man.

Eddie G said:
The problem isn't strictly about MK/non-MK for the most part, it's that the Midwest (specifically MW:E, more specifically Ohio/Kentucky/Indiana) has grown SOFT and wants an easy way out, or an easier route to a better individual performance in tournament under the guise of "having more fun". Fun is subjective. Anyway I'm done rambling for now, lol. I'll still attend almost anything anyway because I love to compete, and I have experience against the majority of the cast from wifi so I'm not worried about it.

This part is basically your opinion, and I'm not going to argue with you if you feel that way. But if you plan on using MK ban to boost MW skill level, I don't agree that will help. More tournaments is probably the first place to start, followed by more traveling.

Eddie G · Jul 3, 2012

sneakytako said:
Dude you know exactly what I'm talking about. We can't compare ourselves to Texas and Florida, it's not like we catch up by unbanning MK. The point is MK ban isn't holding us back like TC is saying in the OP. Although your point about beating MK mains in MK ban tournament is legit, it's not like that is the thing that makes MW bad.

Frankly, I don't think it's mainly about MK either. I just don't think our players play enough in general, and when they do...it's not efficient or dedicated enough practice. I'm not expecting people to put the kind of time that Vinnie does into this game, because we all have lives to live and differing amounts of free time, but I'm willing to bet that over half of our people only play the day of a tournament. Again, if Salem and other people can improve the way they do under isolated circumstances, I think travel amount and tournament attending frequency are null and void. After all - any form of non-tournament play are all like preparation for a test; the tournaments are the test for that practice. Lack of test-taking shouldn't be a reason for a lack of improvement when the study resources (wifi, smashfests, etc.) are still there to use. There are very few players who don't have at least one of those to utilize.

sneakytako said:
Dude, you gotta trust me on this one and believe me when I say you have no idea what your talking about. Ok, I have one of the worst tech skill in the entire brawl community, seriously I can't even platform cancel. Yet I can still compete because I outwit other players, not because laser gyro is auto approach stopper. In fact even though I'm more of a mental ROB, I have more trouble with MK than any other character. Why? Because you need to be more technically profecient than your opponent to have a chance in this bad MU. Any good MK can react to any of my mixups because that's what MK does. Ocean isn't impressive because he's smart. Ocean is amazing because he's super technical, in the most subtle places. You gotta trust me on this one man.

Eh, I disagree with the notion that Ocean's tech skill > his smarts. For the other stuff though, it's your main whom you've played for years so I'll take your word for it bro.

sneakytako said:
This part is basically your opinion, and I'm not going to argue with you if you feel that way. But if you plan on using MK ban to boost MW skill level, I don't agree that will help. More tournaments is probably the first place to start, followed by more traveling.

Read above. More tournaments/traveling is necessary for a healthy community in terms of existence. Individual player improvement can still be accomplished through other means and resources.

kd- · Jul 3, 2012

You know you got no options,

isn't really fair.

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