Are you a scrub?

kismet2 · Jul 17, 2012

I make this thread to help out scrubs that need to find the right mindset. In no way am I trying to disrespect anyone but a scrub is someone who resents using high level tactics to win. Everyone had gone through this at one point but I'm here to tell you that you shouldn't have to hold back because you feel sorry for your opponent. I found a thread that someone made on this website: http://arashiboards.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1186 it's about what kind of mindset you should have. I feel that anyone that already looked in this thread to take some time to click on the link and give it a read. The game that this person is referring to is Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 2. KnJ=substitute, U1=jutsu, U2=ultimate jutsu. The "Sirlin: The Bane of All Scrubby Logic Everywhere" part is optional. I do recommend that you check it out, after you read PersonalVendetta's post, if you haven't read David Sirlin's playing to win book.

Definition of metagame:
Metagaming applies to games where no one strategy beats out all the rest. Metagaming gets even deeper in games where there are multiple characters; each with their own set of unique strategies. Metagaming involves the use of the most effective strategies to win, both overall strategies that apply to all chars and individual character strategies. But it doesn't stop there. Metagaming is more than just using top level strategies to win, it involves a battle that takes place outside of the game; in the minds of the players. Predicting your opponents moves is a large part of metagaming; watching his strategies and patterns and predicting future actions so that you may act based on that. Think it stops there? It goes a bit deeper; as you're predicting your opponent's moves, hes predicting your's, so now you're also thinking about what he thinks you're thinking.

"It's all envy that people use "gay tactics" to beat others. It's funny cause people say there's honor in not using those tactics, when that's not where the honor is at and they tend to stretch the meaning of honor. You do whatever it takes to win, but you do it fair and show good sportsmanship. People need to learn that seeing someone beat them up with those tactics is to show respect cause after all, you can't learn if they did hinder themselves like that." -Scatz

Eddie G · Jul 17, 2012

If not for Peach, I not play this game.

Help me

kismet2 · Jul 17, 2012

if you want to find the right mindset, click on the link. i can't help you if you're only playing this game for peach lol maybe you should just accept the game and try different stuff, see how you like it.

MR. K · Jul 17, 2012

and in the end this is more or less just feels like another anti-ban users ways to try and claim why mk shouldn't be banned.

kismet2 · Jul 17, 2012

LOL are you for real? i main falco so the ban doesn't really affect me. i'm trying to help people find the right mindset and that they shouldn't be afraid of using high level tactics. so i'm kind of referring things from a general point of view. is all you think about how gay mk is?

EDIT: you should probably be a metagamer and worry about advancing the metagame, play the game the way it should be played, not just mk lol

infiniteV115 · Jul 18, 2012

Funnily enough, I've never done anything 'scrubby' until my first national (IMPULSE) where I wanted to take Mr.R to Rainbow Cruise but I decided not to. I didn't want to 'gay' him, so to speak, even though I'm pro-RC and anti-'gay'
Not to imply that I would have won had I gone there, I probably would have lost regardless.

| Big D | · Jul 18, 2012

u wud have won but ur a scrub

a scrub that gimps my snake

Tricky Shadowe · Jul 18, 2012

I honestly usually have low self-esteem when I play this game. So since I already think I'm going to lose, I do lose. Unless I play Ganon, then somehow, the odds of me winning is likely.

So this mindset needs to be changed, yes?

hichez50 · Jul 18, 2012

Kismet I am ready to take your spot in the PR, so I'm going to flat out say that I am scrub type #2. I have a hard time finding the line between wanting metagame to change, specifically by making the stage list super liberal, and just accepting the game for what it is. I don't sandbag vs. any opponent though when I am playing for money or hoping for advice. I guess I don't resent using high level play, but I sometimes resent what high level play is. After reading the play to win book by sirlin years ago I found my logic stupid. I still feel like my mindset isn't completely there even though it has drastically improved mostly due to insinsitvity of P1.

kismet2 · Jul 18, 2012

infiniteV115 said:
Funnily enough, I've never done anything 'scrubby' until my first national (IMPULSE) where I wanted to take Mr.R to Rainbow Cruise but I decided not to. I didn't want to 'gay' him, so to speak, even though I'm pro-RC and anti-'gay'
Not to imply that I would have won had I gone there, I probably would have lost regardless.

<3 it's ok, let's be metagamers.

Tricky Shadowe said:
I honestly usually have low self-esteem when I play this game. So since I already think I'm going to lose, I do lose. Unless I play Ganon, then somehow, the odds of me winning is likely.

So this mindset needs to be changed, yes?

let's start thinking like winners =)

hichez50 said:
Kismet I am ready to take your spot in the PR, so I'm going to flat out say that I am scrub type #2. I have a hard time finding the line between wanting metagame to change, specifically by making the stage list super liberal, and just accepting the game for what it is. I don't sandbag vs. any opponent though when I am playing for money or hoping for advice. I guess I don't resent using high level play, but I sometimes resent what high level play is. After reading the play to win book by sirlin years ago I found my logic stupid. I still feel like my mindset isn't completely there even though it has drastically improved mostly due to insinsitvity of P1.

you aren't alone, i used to be the same way so i know what it's like.

TheReflexWonder · Jul 18, 2012

The title of this thread is brutal, hahah. At least it will generate traffic.

That aside, it's always good to lead people in the right direction as far as competitive play goes, though.

MegaRobMan · Jul 18, 2012

Yes, I am.

Bonds · Jul 19, 2012

MegaRobMan said:
Yes, I am.

me too

In all honesty, I resent camping as a tactic and I'm pretty sure I have lost a lot of games I could've otherwise won because I don't like to camp. Now I will do it because I feel like I have to a lot of the time, but I would honestly rather just fight. The large part camping plays in this game bothers me much more than other things a lot of people would consider gay, like ics chaingrabs.

Kink-Link5 · Jul 19, 2012

Pretty much. Brawl's too hard so I just stick with Melee.

2000

kismet2 · Jul 19, 2012

TheReflexWonder said:
The title of this thread is brutal, hahah. At least it will generate traffic.

That aside, it's always good to lead people in the right direction as far as competitive play goes, though.

this is true XD i really hope that the mindset that people are looking is here and that they should be encouraged to metagame. i feel that some characters haven't changed but maybe that'll be different now.

MegaRobMan said:
Yes, I am.

what about now?

Bonds said:
me too

In all honesty, I resent camping as a tactic and I'm pretty sure I have lost a lot of games I could've otherwise won because I don't like to camp. Now I will do it because I feel like I have to a lot of the time, but I would honestly rather just fight. The large part camping plays in this game bothers me much more than other things a lot of people would consider gay, like ics chaingrabs.

camping gets pretty fun once you know how to shut someone's options down

there are different ways of doing it, too, like camping right outside of someone's comfort zone to pressure them.

Bonds · Jul 19, 2012

kismet2 said:
camping gets pretty fun once you know how to shut someone's options down there are different ways of doing it, too, like camping right outside of someone's comfort zone to pressure them.

Would you care to go a little in-depth about that? I could always use work on my camping game, and I have an OoS tournament this weekend.

What exactly do you look to do to limit your opponent's options?

kismet2 · Jul 19, 2012

to limit your opponent's options means to know their options. when you camp you're not doing it because it's cool, you're forcing your opponent to approach. with that you'll have to think what your opponent will do and act based on that. you can learn what options your opponent have in a match when you have your setups to see what reaction you get. it gets easy after a while if your opponent keeps doing the same thing lol.

Airrider · Aug 6, 2012

I'm new to this community and was kinda surprised by this topic. I think that in a competition you simply do whatever you can to win since it's how the game is. Now, personally i would probably never play Meta Knight because i'd rather be an underdog, but using high level techniques? Since i haven't been i a competition yet i can't say to much, but if some guy metagame-***** me i think i would try to get better instead of calling my opponent "gay".

MegaRobMan · Aug 6, 2012

kismet2 said:
what about now?

Top 5 wolf, baby!

Stilll super duper scrubby.

I think the fact that I play the game monthly has more to do with it. Having to relearn other characters spacing :/

kismet2 said:
to limit your opponent's options means to know their options. when you camp you're not doing it because it's cool, you're forcing your opponent to approach. with that you'll have to think what your opponent will do and act based on that. you can learn what options your opponent have in a match when you have your setups to see what reaction you get. it gets easy after a while if your opponent keeps doing the same thing lol.

I think more brawl players need to talk about options like melee players do, because people would understand my game a bit better. I do NOT over commit to areas and it makes my play look weaker because I am focused on not putting myself in a bad position where I can't cover as many options.

Also all I play against that are good are :dedede:

,

and

, and I main Wolf, and 2 of those are wolfs 2/3 worst matchups, and I have never beaten a good/decent snake before.

shaSLAM · Aug 19, 2012

Airrider said:
I'm new to this community and was kinda surprised by this topic. I think that in a competition you simply do whatever you can to win since it's how the game is. Now, personally i would probably never play Meta Knight because i'd rather be an underdog, but using high level techniques? Since i haven't been i a competition yet i can't say to much, but if some guy metagame-***** me i think i would try to get better instead of calling my opponent "gay".

i think you should just learn the metagame instead of trying to get better. i just "try to get better" a lot only to be beat out because my opponent is using the most optimal strategy and I'm not (I'm just using what i taught myself). the metagame is basically a community list of each character's most optimal strategies (i think?) and generally how to use them. so just use that.

if you're saying that you are the type of person that likes to teach yourself and hates to read and just simply apply things but would rather just learn what works best for you, then i feel you

problem is that that isn't optimal.

Grey Belnades · Aug 19, 2012

Yup, I'm a scrub. I didn't know it but reading this:

A scrub is someone who resents using high level tactics to win. Everyone had gone through this at one point but I'm here to tell you that you shouldn't have to hold back because you feel sorry for your opponent.

I do feel bad when edgeguarding.

kismet2 · Aug 20, 2012

then i hope you succeed in changing your mindset for the better. you'd be a fool not to take advantage of an opportunity, if anything it's your opponent's fault for letting it happen in the first place.

TreK · Aug 20, 2012

Well, I do not enjoy 'unfair/gay' stuff, but the bar I set for 'unfairness/gayness' is pretty damn high. ICs are my favorite character to watch, and the Luigi-Marth matchup is among my favorites.
So I guess I'm half of a scrub.

kismet2 · Aug 20, 2012

yeah you'd be type 2 and it's ok to accept that stuff. it's the most the effective strategies that are going to be abused. an experienced player can get around any strategy, that's why it's good to put time into a game to learn how to counter them.

Grey Belnades · Aug 20, 2012

kismet2 said:
then i hope you succeed in changing your mindset for the better. you'd be a fool not to take advantage of an opportunity, if anything it's your opponent's fault for letting it happen in the first place.

Yeah but I rarely edgeguard. Actually, I only edgeguard if I'm edgeguarded against. I agree, I want to rid myself of this mindset but I don't feel "fair" when I do stuff like that. I did my best to have a competitive mindset at WHOBO 4 but somethings like edgeguarding I did not resort to. I did however go RC against Ally with GW which is something I would've normally never have done.

infiniteV115 · Aug 20, 2012

You should only feel bad about edgeguarding when
-You're playing MK
-Your opponent is Link/Ganon

kismet2 · Aug 21, 2012

Old Man Grey said:
Yeah but I rarely edgeguard. Actually, I only edgeguard if I'm edgeguarded against. I agree, I want to rid myself of this mindset but I don't feel "fair" when I do stuff like that. I did my best to have a competitive mindset at WHOBO 4 but somethings like edgeguarding I did not resort to. I did however go RC against Ally with GW which is something I would've normally never have done.

definitely but when you're at a competition the goal is first and you don't want to limit your own options. use everything at your disposal to get that W, do what you need to do. besides, edgeguarding isn't something that your opponent can't get around. you want to abuse that mechanic so you can take a stock early(if you can).

infiniteV115 said:
You should only feel bad about edgeguarding when
-You're playing MK
-Your opponent is Link/Ganon

and when you're m2k

Scatz · Aug 22, 2012

But Kismet, you still a scrub. We all are. :0

kismet2 · Aug 22, 2012

Yes <3

but really i'm just a noob, and that's what we all are XD. i want to play alot of people but i hardly get the chance to so i might start playing wifi again. i used to be a scrub but i wasn't at first. i turned into one when i played in 08, when i played some people they'd think that i'm bad because i used chaingrabs and other "gay" tactics. players can influence others like that and it discourages someone from doing what they really want or what would help them win. that's why i never say anything negative about anyone i play because they're trying to win and i respect that. if anything players should be encouraged but instead they get hate.

Scatz · Aug 23, 2012

True. It's all envy that people use "gay tactics" to beat others. It's funny cause people say there's honor in not using those tactics, when that's not where the honor is at and they tend to stretch the meaning of honor. You do whatever it takes to win, but you do it fair and show good sportsmanship. People need to learn that seeing someone beat them up with those tactics is to show respect cause after all, you can't learn if they did hinder themselves like that.

kismet2 · Aug 24, 2012

^exactly and if you don't mind could i put this post in the op? you'll receive credit of course. it speaks many truths and it's those things that will slow down the evolution of a metagame.

Scatz · Aug 24, 2012

Sure. You can put it up there.

theunabletable · Aug 25, 2012

Good thread, but also relevant: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=90378&page=3

Zero-X · Aug 25, 2012

I was a scrub, until I got into my first competitive fight with somebody at their house, and realized using simple attacks and not using advanced techniques to "hold back" and "play fair" wouldn't work. Gaming got a lot more fun since then, to be honest.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Aug 25, 2012

I hate sirlin's definition a lot. It doesn't cover the subject In areas that are worth talking about and his article is written like he is talking down to people.

Play to win how you can, but certain things aren't the best for succeeding.

kismet2 · Aug 26, 2012

theunabletable said:
Good thread, but also relevant: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=90378&page=3

yeah playing to win is misunderstood by some people. abusing a rule isn't metagaming at all, so they won't improve as fast as others that are learning more about the game. it's all about knowing how to apply effective strategies.

Zero-X said:
I was a scrub, until I got into my first competitive fight with somebody at their house, and realized using simple attacks and not using advanced techniques to "hold back" and "play fair" wouldn't work. Gaming got a lot more fun since then, to be honest.

it is fun =) higher level play is amazing and casual players are missing out

Red Ryu said:
I hate sirlin's definition a lot. It doesn't cover the subject In areas that are worth talking about and his article is written like he is talking down to people.

Play to win how you can, but certain things aren't the best for succeeding.

it does seem like he's talking about doing WHATEVER it takes, it should be within the game not out of it.

Life · Aug 26, 2012

His preface makes a big deal out of sportsmanship IIRC, so that bit's covered. And this didn't make it into the book, it would seem, but:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win.html
covers "playing to learn".

So yeah, Sirlin does in fact cover this stuff. It's just that everyone else only remembers the scrub bit (which is fair because it's the important part, but it's not the whole book).

infiniteV115 · Aug 29, 2012

Didn't read the whole thing in that link that somebody posted but I did read this
[COLLAPSE="Explanation of why everything said about JJ is wrong and misleading"]

He once suggested that Jungle Japes be unbanned because one could deal with the Klap Trap by keeping an eye on the clock and dividing the time by 15 second intervals (the time it takes for a claptrap to approach). He would see the clock reaching another fifteen seconds and he'd camp the high ground while shooting projectiles. He argued that if you weren't willing to become good at this, and instead chose to ban Jungle Japes, you weren't really a good player to begin with; you weren't playing to win.

Just wanted to throw out that this is completely untrue. The Klap Trap appears every 10 seconds (iirc 10.02 to be exact) and I doubt Overswarm was unaware of this; if he was, this must have happened a LOOOOONG time ago.

It's actually very easy to keep track of the Klap Trap on JJ; it appears every time the seconds on the timer hits 7. Then after like 4 or 5 minutes into the match, it appears when the seconds hits 6.

Yes, I think JJ should be unbanned.[/COLLAPSE]

M@v · Aug 30, 2012

So.....what your saying is....everyone should play metaknight since you're holding yourself back otherwise :troll:

Seriously though good topic.

kismet2 · Sep 1, 2012

LOL if you want to but other characters have what mk doesn't and are way better at zoning if people prefer that, mk is pretty bad at that and kinda gets bodied by it =(

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