Wario's Match-Ups!

Depends on the stagelist. Geez.

I have a 21-stage mentality, there are definetly much more stages than just RC and Brinstar that Wario can pick.

21 stage mentality is dead

dead

come on up to nova scotia



we enjoy stages

I almost believed it until I saw Wario Ware.

kyokoro_pamuyo said:

I almost believed it until I saw Wario Ware.

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It was completely legit less than nine months ago.

e: at one point we had Port Town legal, too. And we gave Onett a try at one monthly. We were very forward-thinking right up until we went to Apex 2012, then suddenly we realized we were awful, awful people.

CP'in pika's to luigis all day.

I actually know this matchup a lot and I would say it's a pretty solid +2 D3 advantage.

strengths: Dedede actually has a lot going for him against this top tier. Unlike his ****ty MK, Diddy, Olimar, Popo, Pika, and Falco matchups, it's the exact opposite for Wario. Dedede has many good tools and options in this matchup like his chaingrab does a lot of damage, great air releases (Which are all of his air attacks, f tilt, up tilt, up smash, and dash grab), completely outranging Wario, Bair really good on Wario, and amazing stage control. Dedede also has some of the most stage abuse in the game on Wario like infinites on slopes, halberd edges, PS1 edges, and other stage hazards. Unlike any character in the game, Dedede can actually control where he finishes Wario so Wario can't survive as well and can even zero death Wario on certain stages.

strengths: While Wario losses badly to this matchup, Wario has a couple of good tools he can use. Wario's bite move is really useful for edge guarding (Although sadly if spaced really well D3's bair actually beats it), Wario can time him out (Which can be pretty hard to get the lead), and Wario has some combos on Dedede (But they can be too risky at times).

My advice to Wario mains is to not pick any counterpick stage and pick stages that are very neutral like SV would be the #1 pick, then BF. I would also not pick Frigate or especially Halberd because Dedede has a lot of bull**** on Wario on those. Also be careful and try to get D3 off stage and keep him there.

My advice to Dedede mains is the opposite of Wario mains on the stages part and to abuse the stage and combos with chaingrabs and air released as much as possible.

I believe the matchup has gotten worse ever since the standing buffered pivot grab and the stage list massacre.

while playing 4god there have been many situations in which i try to apply pressure while his back is turned towards me.. INSTEAD, i get grabbed..

But time to man the **** up and beat that penguin!!

I do agree with the stage list affecting the matchup, however that is not what the matchup should be focused on. Yes it is likely that if we end up losing the first match, we get countered and lose the set. Never give up if you lose the first stage tho. Ban FD and win the set. I try to strike it to anything but FD round 1. personally..

STOP!
Caution.
Good to go


FD: Not even gonna bother.. If you didn't ban this in the first place, you wouldn't have given him a free win!

SV: the platform allows us to camp some and apply pressure if we get DDD above us on that platform. Also if we get grabbed (depending on which way the platform is headed and where we are) DDD can not chaingrab us or he can standing chaingrab us. If camping the platform while in kill percent, watch for uptilt and dont forget to jump>bike away. Also wait for the platform to move and THEN mash out if you are in kill percent. This stage is small and much more forgiving if we get grabbed. Less down throws for DDD and a couple more options as for living the grab release>upsmash.

BF: this stage i like to think of a circle camp city. dance around the platforms but watch out for the uptilt and fairs. Remember that falling off a platform and doing an airial is faster than out 8frame jump. ever frame counts when you are racking up damage and finding openings. top platform is best imo. DDD has to work to get you and uptilt doesnt gay you like on the middle platforms. Also if you get DDD above you, try to pressure and keep him above you. Dont let him back down. He will shield on the platforms and be defensive obv, so keep that B button handy for noms.
Yoshis: uh.. i dont know exactly why, but this stage i sometimes prefer to start on depending on how striking works. i guess use the slanted areas of the stage to mix up tire throws and bike toss edge gaurds. (hopefully reflex or waymas can add more information about this stage. I just dont understand it very well )

Lylat. The way lylat is setup allows us to run away and camp fairly well. However, racking up damage imo is annoying on this stage. Platforms are right above DDD and isnt very helpful for us because of DDD's massive head (uptilt). I only see 3 positive aspects of this stage:
1) Flat area with platforms allow you to run around and camp for farts. Land on the platform opposite of DDD (obv) and remember to jump>bike (keep your second jump as an option)
2) the unbalanced floor of lylat SOMETIMES allows us to mess up DDD's chaingrab and fast fall airials. not too helpful for us but its better than nothing.
3) the bottom of the stage is open. Keep inmind that if you ever get in trouble, bike under the stage and go to the other side.

General stuff i find useful:

Bike: jump>bike allows us to maintain a great virticle distance between DDD and wastes time.
- Throwing the bike down. sorta acts as a protective horizontal wall for a split second. run up and nair and retreat or if they shield, bite.
- Throwing the bike UP. This somewhat acts as temp. ensurence. what goes up, must come down. If you get grabbed, it might just interupt. *ALSO NOTE* one clap will break the bike if thrown upward (after it completes its bounce) if you want to break the bike for tires.

Stage position: try to keep yourself towards the edge of the stage with your BACK towards the edge. if you get grabbed, you will not get chaingrabbed as much as if you are on DDD's side facing the ledge. (simple enough but i thought i'd add this anyway)

Agreeing with -2

Yoshi's is pretty bad, makes bair and fair walls even dumber.

xzx: -2
Croi: Not even, just zero
TheReflexWonder: -2
LOE1: -2
One-Up: -2
Buff: 0
kyokoro_pamuyo: Not even, just zero
Lord Chair: -2
Gheb_01: -2
Doc King: -2
Dynomite: -2

For you who are using the argument "it depends on the stage list" and think this MU is even should seriously rethink. This MU isn't all about stages, like they can't decide a MU. Yes, there are better stages for Wario and worse stages too but that doesn't set the MU entirely. This MU isn't even close to even... And why do I feel that BF isn't a good stage for Wario against DDD? O_o Doesn't King Dedede's fair and bair wall Wario really well on that stage? I feel like Wario has just a little hard spacing King Dedede there.

****ing -3.

**** this MU. There's NOTHING you can do!

-5

DewDaDash said:

-5

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Highly probable!

Unwinnable.

Wario is too good for it to be unwinnable.

It's undesirable. I dunno what to think of the MU because I use Diddy for Dedede and it's much easier, especially with my playstyle for that MU. I started doing that... idk how long ago was a very long time ago but yeah I haven't done Wario vs Dedede in tournament or MM since forever ago. I do think it's winnable though: -1 or -2 hands down.

DMG said:

It's undesirable. I dunno what to think of the MU because I use Diddy for Dedede and it's much easier, especially with my playstyle for that MU. I started doing that... idk how long ago was a very long time ago but yeah I haven't done Wario vs Dedede in tournament or MM since forever ago. I do think it's winnable though: -1 or -2 hands down.

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thats what i started doinga little while back. going against every day. but then the best dedede in my state (tech chase) found himself in a pool with 3 diddy mains and a diddy secondary(me). he 2-0'd every single diddy...except for one diddy(pr'd 1 in MI), and he even took a game off him. ive just decided to try wario against dedede from now on.

if you have a solid secondary that you're confident with tho, dont hesitate to bring it out.

xzx: -2
Croi: Not even, just zero
TheReflexWonder: -2
LOE1: -2
One-Up: -2
Buff: 0
kyokoro_pamuyo: Not even, just zero
Lord Chair: -2
Gheb_01: -2
Doc King: -2
Dynomite: -2
SnackAttack: -3
DMG: -1/-2

LOE1 said:

thats what i started doinga little while back. going against every day. but then the best dedede in my state (tech chase) found himself in a pool with 3 diddy mains and a diddy secondary(me). he 2-0'd every single diddy...except for one diddy(pr'd 1 in MI), and he even took a game off him. ive just decided to try wario against dedede from now on.

if you have a solid secondary that you're confident with tho, dont hesitate to bring it out.

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zinoto is pretty good tho. (still salty that i lost to him last game last hit)

I started going oli and spaming side B and grab against DDD. Kinda works.. Started to beat 4god with that scrub tactic, but he caught on.. If i put more work into my it would come very close every game, but whats an olimar..

im starting to just go against now...

I missed out on most of the discussion so I may be repeating what others have to say.

I feel like there is a huge risk/reward factor when applying damage to him. If he manages to grab you out of shield (like if you don't hit your dair properly or you fall victim to how stupid his grab range really is) that is almost a free 35-60 damage to DDD (depending on the stage length and where he grabbed you)

If the Dedede has a habit of holding shield as if he thinks you are going to hit him, bite makes a good punish and also gives you something to mix your game up.

I don't think playing DDD is impossible. I get decent practice with the mu in SWFL but I think DDD counters Wario extremely hard. (obviously)

Stage wise, I prefer SV over BF. SV's platform can save you compared to BF's when getting grab released. Also, Dedede's bair is more effective with the two lower platforms. (You aren't likely to get hit every time if you camp but it still puts pressure on you if he has the lead)

I use to believe the match up was -1, but then I began to play more of them and realized the match up was incredibly stupid for Wario so I believe it is -2

xzx: -2
Croi: Not even, just zero
TheReflexWonder: -2
LOE1: -2
One-Up: -2
Buff: 0
kyokoro_pamuyo: Not even, just zero
Lord Chair: -2
Gheb_01: -2
Doc King: -2
Dynomite: -2
SnackAttack: -3
DMG: -1/-2
SuperShyGuy: -2

Okay, it's obviously -2 for Wario. Let's move on to Toon Link.

ah toon link. for a while i usedd to believe it was my worst mu. then i finally caught on to tl and learn how to beat him. its hard to base a mu cause of wifi, cause thats the only time i ever play tl's, and they are broken on wifi(aka harder to sheild anything he does). what i like to do is air camp in this mu, airdodge alot, and not get caught in one of his utilt/bair chains. im normally a pretty campy wario, but in this mu i like to go agro at times so tl doesnt have time to throw a boomerang or pull a bomb. wario ourplays tl in the air from what ive seen/played. and tl doesnt have many options against an agro wario...other than bair. i just jump over bair most of the time and follow up with a dair. tl also doesnt have too many kill moves to get wario. usmash can be avoided by air camping, and just be smart and you can didge uair. just watch out for fair, cause thats what kills me most of the time.

i'd say this is a +1 wario.

It's even. I use a diff character when possible for this MU because it naturally takes forever for either character to hit the other. If MK is legal, I just go him LOL that MU is fun for MK. For Wario though I'm more than convinced it's basically even, maybe 5 points either character but neither one has a 6:4 clearly.

You can skip TL, trust me I have had to play that character too damn much for my own liking. Put it as 0 and move on lol save you a week or whatever.

+1 Wario. He has an easier time than most characters avoiding our projectiles thanks to his excellent mobility, and the way he normally approaches us makes zair and bombs much less potent than they normally are. Our bair and boomerang are TL's most useful tools in the match-up, but TL bair is still no Marth fair when it comes down to it. Offstage for TL can be really bad if he's not careful, especially if Wario has a fart. Bite is also very annoying for TL when it's used correctly. Killing Wario can be a real nightmare sometimes. TL already has trouble killing, and Wario is pretty good at avoiding his already mediocre kill options. Gimping him is possible if we manage to knock him off his bike if he's below the stage, but it's a rarely seen situation anyway.

Its a doable match-up for TL but Wario definitely has the advantage.

its pretty even

the person who takes the first stock should win. bair walls the hell out of wario. TLs recovery is not too hard to waft, but getting him offstage is. its like the snake mu but 30x more annoying.

i'm with dmg, 0 and move on

LOE1: +1
DMG: 0
archer.: +1
BPx: 0

Why move on? I will not skip any characters. I want more opinions about this MU and learn something on the way too. For example, I don't know if this MU is 0 or +1 for Wario. Hearing opinions about this MU will open up things for me and clarify them.

You're wrong about Bite IMO. I don't ever have a time to Bite an aerial TL because most of them will just retreat a bair or move instead of shield. The only time you want to shield is to punish OOS or if you're super cornered. Even then, there's no real time to pin TL down to bite him. I've eaten too many Bairs for that.

The MU is basically even. Wario kills TL easier, but neither character approaches the other well. TL walls and Wario runs. It's a long drawn out battle of spacing and retreating.

The only good TL I've ever played was MJG, and only once. No solid critiques or opinions, feels pretty even.

+1 Wario imo. It's one heck of a patience battle, but we can out-camp TL.

Obviously they're both campy characters that have a hard time approaching the other, but I believe we have an easier time finding an opening than they do. Unless TL gets a solid lead, we don't really have to care if he's camping and throwing crap at us all the time. We can dodge that all day like Boshy if we want to. They will more than likely have to turn to their ground game if they want a kill when we're not over 150%. (but do watch for fair and up air)

If his bair wall is destroying you, you are probably being too aggressive. If we're leading, we don't really have to care if he sets up this wall.

My two cents on bite, it is more difficult to use against TL than in most other match-ups, but it does have its uses. TL can be pressured into getting caught in it, and it's definitely possible to sneak it in if the TL is overusing his shield.

TL can be annoying, but only if we let ourselves be annoyed. The less we care, the better off we are.

Ugh what an extremely campy match up. Toon Link and Wario have tools that help them reach the end of time. Toon Link's flaws come in the form that his projectiles are the only reliable thing he has to keep Wario away from him. (Playing many matches against Snake have helped with insta catching/tossing his projectiles and using them against him)

Wario also has a better time poking TL and Wario's weight makes it hard for TL's moves to kill him.

More reasons to be posted later.

Long story short: +1 Wario

yea, i forgot to mention that catching the bombs can also throw tl off his mindgame lol

I think its Wario's advantage. Toon Link does barely any damage while camping and has a very hard time killing Wario. Camping is just greatly in Wario's favor. Wario is at an advantage on edgeguarding or just killing off of the sides/top.

Wario camps harder (weigh a half-waft against the small amount of a damage a toon link might get at range), recovers better, kills better on and off stage.

How to win: Bait TL to throw a bomb and close range and bite it. Proceed to kill TL at 90%.

Or you could just catch one and zdrop---> bite.

This MU is pretty even. I think if Toon Link mixes up his campy game with some aggro game and ground game, this MU is even. TL's Bair is good spacing tool against Wario. Toon Link can space really well against Wario thanks to his disjointed range (bair, zair, tilts, nair...). Wario is good at killing and TL kinda have to hang in there to try to kill Wario. Wario is also good at dodging his projectiles (with even the bike sucking up his arrows) but the boomerang is good for stage controlling, since it's long lasting. There isn't much to say about this MU. Both can camp and both have good tools against each other. 0.

LOE1: +1
DMG: 0
archer.: +1
BPx: 0
Croi: 0
ShadowAzure: +1
SuperShyGuy: +1
Tesh: +1
xzx: 0

mostly just a battle of patience, expect a long fight, you can hide behind bike to stop projectiles and stuff but staying high in the air works too pretty much an even match until you realise Wario lives longer and is better at killing.

+1

These +1 votes better be for a 55:45 MU because Wario doesn't have THAT great of a MU vs TL.

I don't really want to explain because everyone's already said it. I, however, feel (if possible) this would be .5 Wario. I personally prefer the 50:50 system, but that's me.